Residencies and the pharmacy job market

[neopharma]

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Two controversial topics combined in one thread...uh oh! 🙂

I must preface this by saying I know there is no right or wrong answer, but I'm just interested in starting a discussion and seeing everyone's opinions of this.

We all know that with the opening of so many new pharmacy schools and increases in class sizes, we have a surplus of pharms on our hands that is only going to get worse if the profession doesn't do some serious expanding, that's nothing new.

However, how has this influenced your decision to pursue a residency or not pursue a residency?

On one hand, by doing a one year residency, you get viewed as having 3-4 years experience once finished, which gives you a competitive edge over new grads entering the job market without this. At the same time, though, with each year we have that many more grads out there competing for jobs. Looking for a job one year earlier will be less competitive than the years following.

So, putting aside your own beliefs about whether residencies are good or bad in general, when considering the pharmacy job market in the next few years, do you think it might actually be more harmful to do a residency than helpful?

 

[awval999]

NEO = Northeast Ohio?

In all things, it depends here. You are talking residencies so I'm assuming you want hospital? Do you want full clinical, full staffing, hybrid? It just depends.

All I can tell you is what I did. I did hard rotations, I went to the FDA, fancy 1000-bed hospitals, and did as well as I could do. I went to pharmacy functions/dinners and went out with the directors after the dinners and chatted around. I got business cards. And in the end I ended up with a staffing posistion at a hospital up here in Cleveland.

I think we have 3 more good years before the market is saturated with the new graduates. However, I do believe we will see a two-tiered system where hospitals may not hire grads from new schools. I have heard this from the mouth of a DoP from a regional CC hospital. I do think eventually one will have to do a residency to get a hospital job, but in the next three years I think 2 years experience = one year residency. Remember you can sit for BCPS with 3 years hospital experience. This equals a residency in the eyes of many (not all) administrators.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Two controversial topics combined in one thread...uh oh! 🙂

I must preface this by saying I know there is no right or wrong answer, but I'm just interested in starting a discussion and seeing everyone's opinions of this.

We all know that with the opening of so many new pharmacy schools and increases in class sizes, we have a surplus of pharms on our hands that is only going to get worse if the profession doesn't do some serious expanding, that's nothing new.

However, how has this influenced your decision to pursue a residency or not pursue a residency?

On one hand, by doing a one year residency, you get viewed as having 3-4 years experience once finished, which gives you a competitive edge over new grads entering the job market without this. At the same time, though, with each year we have that many more grads out there competing for jobs. Looking for a job one year earlier will be less competitive than the years following.

So, putting aside your own beliefs about whether residencies are good or bad in general, when considering the pharmacy job market in the next few years, do you think it might actually be more harmful to do a residency than helpful?

Yes, basically.

 

[neopharma]

No Ohio here, just neo for "new".

The residencies I'm referring to are the PGY-1s in the hospital setting.

The past few years my school - which is a new school - has really talked the residency option up and claiming it's the best thing to do if you're sitting here in the third year not knowing what you want to do...emphasizing that it can't hurt you no matter what. Well, I've just been pondering the ins and outs and I'm just wondering with the new schools graduating their first classes and saturating the market even further if maybe that statement isn't entirely true.

Also as an aside in case it comes up later...I specifically categorized this post in the general pharmacy forum instead of residency forum because I felt the residency forum would only get responses from those completely for residencies. I figured this might come up in a "why didn't you put this wherever" reply at some point, and I meant to mention this in the original post and forgot.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Waiting another year for a job can hurt you. I would take all hospital and full-time retail offers very seriously. In this state, there will be 240 new pharmacists in May!? That's not that many, I suppose, because some states will have twice that or more, but still.
And don't forget that pharmacists who are doing residencies right now will be competing for jobs with new grads. So as a P3, for example, you will be competing with next year's grads and residents.

This whole job situation is sort of like a filter with holes that keep getting smaller and smaller each year, because retail expansion has slowed down, almost to a halt, pharmacists aren't really retiring (as far as I can tell), and hospitals are opening and closing.

While job hunting, I've noticed hospital openings trending this way: pharmacy tech > ... staff pharmacist PRN > staff pharmacist full-time > ... clinical pharmacist ≥ director of pharmacy > ... specialty-trained pharmacist. In fact, I haven't seen a single opening for a specialty-trained pharmacist, which is pretty unusual.


If you don't believe me, do a job search for yourself. Hell, anyone in pharmacy school right now should be doing job searches to get an idea of what's actually out there.

 

[Dalteparin]

I finished residency last summer and I'm still not sure it was as good for my career as everyone said it would be. Getting out of residency, I not only had to compete with new grads (who some hospitals prefer because they can pay them less) but other residents and people with a lot more experience. And if the hospital has a residency program, forget about getting a job there - if they want to hire someone straight out of residency, they'll hire their own residents.

Disclaimer: I finished residency during a crappy economy and I was stuck in an area that's saturated with pharmacists. If the economy had been better or I'd been able to move somewhere else, I'd be more optimistic.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I say do a residency if and ONLY if you actually want the extra clinical training. It's not going to guarantee you a job. A PGY2 won't necessarily help, either. In my city, there are only a few hospitals where you could even put your PGY2 training to use. For instance, there is one hospital in the metro area with a full time pharmacist in the ER. We do have a pharmacy school here, so there is some opportunity for teaching positions. But my favorite professors are not the hot **** new grads with big PGY2s and egos to match. I like the ones who have some experience under their belts and can merge book learning with real world pharmacy practice.

We are in the process of hiring an outpatient staff pharmacist where I work. We've had tons of applications from residency trained pharmacists and people with years of experience. We had at least one app from a PGY2 trained BCOP. They didn't get an interview. From what I've heard, we're hiring someone who came from Walgreens.

It's tough out there.

 

[RX CARE]

Waiting another year for a job can hurt you. I would take all hospital and full-time retail offers very seriously. In this state, there will be 240 new pharmacists in May!? That's not that many, I suppose, because some states will have twice that or more, but still.
And don't forget that pharmacists who are doing residencies right now will be competing for jobs with new grads. So as a P3, for example, you will be competing with next year's grads and residents.

This whole job situation is sort of like a filter with holes that keep getting smaller and smaller each year, because retail expansion has slowed down, almost to a halt, pharmacists aren't really retiring (as far as I can tell), and hospitals are opening and closing.

While job hunting, I've noticed hospital openings trending this way: pharmacy tech > ... staff pharmacist PRN > staff pharmacist full-time > ... clinical pharmacist ≥ director of pharmacy > ... specialty-trained pharmacist. In fact, I haven't seen a single opening for a specialty-trained pharmacist, which is pretty unusual.


If you don't believe me, do a job search for yourself. Hell, anyone in pharmacy school right now should be doing job searches to get an idea of what's actually out there.

Are u only talking about your geographic area?

 

[Praziquantel86]

It depends what you want out of your career. If retail (independent or chain) staffing is your goal, then a residency is a waste of your time and significant opportunity cost. Hospital staffing in community hospitals in less desirable areas, a residency is probably not necessary. Where you start to get into the grey area are staffing positions in academic teaching hospitals in highly desirable areas (many hospitals in New York City will preferentially hire PGY1 residency trained pharmacists) and more clinically oriented outpatient roles.

For certain jobs, a residency (or fellowship) is a prerequisite. Faculty positions are the most notable, in addition to most clinical specialist positions. I say most because there are obviously going to be exceptions, but these are certainly becoming fewer and fewer.

The way I see it is that a residency is never going to close doors for you. It may not open them the same way that you would like, but you will never be at a disadvantage for having done one. For those who like to say that a residency is simply cheap labor in some instances - I'd agree. And so what? For certain career pathways, it's just another one of those hoops that life (especially pharmacy) makes you jump through.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

The way I see it is that a residency is never going to close doors for you. It may not open them the same way that you would like, but you will never be at a disadvantage for having done one.

I have seen (as in the BCOP example in my last post) residency trained PharmD's not get interviews b/c they were deemed to be "over qualified" or "just trying to get into the VA system." Granted, these were for staffing positions, but the possibility exists. I'm worried that we are going to produce all these residency trained pharmacists who are going to find their prospects limited, especially those who are specialized. What happens if you complete your PGY2, and can't find a job in your specialty but are considered "over qualified" for staffing jobs?

I'm not against residency. I just don't think it's the golden ticket people want it to be.

 

[lorain]

it depends on the person's situation

for me, i worked retail, got a 2nd business degree....that combo with rph has not opened any doors for me yet...hiring people told me if i had done a residency they wouldve hired me on the spot (i already knew this and was going back for residency anyways as I had planned to do so)...so Im applying for residencies currently


so imo it varies

 

[Praziquantel86]

I have seen (as in the BCOP example in my last post) residency trained PharmD's not get interviews b/c they were deemed to be "over qualified" or "just trying to get into the VA system." Granted, these were for staffing positions, but the possibility exists. I'm worried that we are going to produce all these residency trained pharmacists who are going to find their prospects limited, especially those who are specialized. What happens if you complete your PGY2, and can't find a job in your specialty but are considered "over qualified" for staffing jobs?

I'm not against residency. I just don't think it's the golden ticket people want it to be.

That's fair, I suppose. Was the job a fair competition, though? Many jobs are posted for legal purposes, even after the job has been, for all intents and purposes, filled. I'd imagine this is especially prevalent within the VA with their large intern/residency programs and ease of transferability.

Still, I think the overqualification may be something to think about that I hadn't done previously. However, do you think that might be balanced out by the availability of jobs that would not be a possibility without those qualifications?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That's fair, I suppose. Was the job a fair competition, though? Many jobs are posted for legal purposes, even after the job has been, for all intents and purposes, filled. I'd imagine this is especially prevalent within the VA with their large intern/residency programs and ease of transferability.

Yes it was a fair competition. I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't. Here's what I said (a few posts above this one):

We are in the process of hiring an outpatient staff pharmacist where I work. We've had tons of applications from residency trained pharmacists and people with years of experience. We had at least one app from a PGY2 trained BCOP. They didn't get an interview. From what I've heard, we're hiring someone who came from Walgreens.

Still, I think the overqualification may be something to think about that I hadn't done previously. However, do you think that might be balanced out by the availability of jobs that would not be a possibility without those qualifications?

Looking only at my city, there are MANY more staffing jobs (hospital and retail) than clinical specialist positions. There are more "general" clinical specialist positions than speciality positions. So for me (because I need to stay in this city) a ton of extra training might not be a good thing. It's probably +/- (with an extra + if you want hospital pharmacy) on the PGY1 residency with very little (if any) benefit to a PGY2.

 

[Praziquantel86]

Yes it was a fair competition. I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't. Here's what I said (a few posts above this one):

Forgot about the Walgreen's part...

Looking only at my city, there are MANY more staffing jobs (hospital and retail) than clinical specialist positions. There are more "general" clinical specialist positions than speciality positions. So for me (because I need to stay in this city) a ton of extra training might not be a good thing. It's probably +/- on the PGY1 residency with very little (if any) benefit to a PGY2.

That's a given. I don't necessarily think the overqualification argument applies to every one of those jobs, though. Some of the outpatient types or retail staffing, for sure, but I don't think it would put you at a disadvantage for a hospital staffing job. At an institution with a hybrid clinical/staffing model (as most do, nowadays), I think it would still be seen as somewhat of an advantage.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That's a given. I don't necessarily think the overqualification argument applies to every one of those jobs, though. Some of the outpatient types or retail staffing, for sure, but I don't think it would put you at a disadvantage for a hospital staffing job. At an institution with a hybrid clinical/staffing model (as most do, nowadays), I think it would still be seen as somewhat of an advantage.

Are you saying you think a hospital would/should hire a PGY2 trained specialist for a staffing position? I think the thinking is that the specialist will not be happy verifying orders/checking IVs/etc because they aren't using their clinical training and therefore, will not stay in the position.

And while the clinical/staffing hybrid may be gaining popularity in a lot of places, it's be no means the norm, yet. Particularly not in my area of the country. At my current (VA) hospital, we have only staff pharmacists and only clinical specialists. No hybrid positions.

I agree that the a hybrid position would be more attractive than a 100% staffing position (to a PGY2 trained specialist) a lot of what our clinical specialists do (antibiotic survellience, kinetics, inpatient anticoag) would be pretty mundane to a BCOP or someone with a PGY2 in organ transplant (or whatever). So I just don't see TPTB hiring a specialist for those jobs. I also don't think a specialist would be happy in those jobs, but might consider them in the current "I need a job... any job" state of the job market.

 

[Dalteparin]

Still, I think the overqualification may be something to think about that I hadn't done previously. However, do you think that might be balanced out by the availability of jobs that would not be a possibility without those qualifications?

No. Specialist jobs are very rare, and from what I've seen they're mainly at large academic medical centers.

You don't need a PGY-2 to succeed at a community hospital (which most of the hospitals in the US are), and said community hospital is not going to hire a PGY-2 when they can hire a PGY-1 who can do the job just as well for less money.

Like 4MD said, I'm not against residency, but if you want a golden ticket... sorry, those are only in Wonka Bars. 🙂

 

[PharmDstudent]

Are u only talking about your geographic area?

The entire southern border of Louisiana.

You used to see a few specialty spots at Ochsner and Tulane in New Orleans, but not now...

 

[Versed06]

I'm in my 3rd year of pharmacy school and I'm seriously considering doing a two-year residency myself in either internal medicine or critical care, as I want a clinical focus in my career, especially within the VA system. But I'm concerned about the opportunity cost of missing out on a full salary of a hospital staff position and taking the risk of not having a clinical pharmacist position available for me when I'm finished. After doing a rotation at the VA, I find that I'd love to work there, especially when I may have the choice of either doing a residency there after school or doing a non-traditional residency at that site, where I would work there for about a year and then alternate between residency training and staffing for a few years at a full salary. I'm currently working as a pharmacy technician at another hospital in town and I'd like to say that I would be offered a staff position there when I'm done with school, so I could possibly keep that door open for supplemental work and experience as well. Between the two options in residencies, would it be any more advantageous to my career in the long-term to do the traditional ASHP-accredited residency at a lower salary in a shorter time period or doing the non-traditional one over a longer period of time with the intermittent residency training? It may sound like I'm already answering my own question, but please provide any thoughts you may have.

 

[psychoandy]

As far as PGY2 goes, I think big fish in a small pond really applies. Just looking at all of the academic medical centers I'm applying to, the preceptors in say, critical care, are 80% young and have graduated in the past 10 years. Other than people moving or going into other areas (industry, consulting, etc) I don't see a whole lot of specialty positions.

However, I think as the pharmacy profession continues to expand in areas other than critical care (like mandatory ED staffing, transplant, a pharmacist in every ICU, more amcare spots, etc) there will be more positions created. But I still don't think that's enough to support all of the residents coming out of pgy1/pgy2. For example, look at Chicago...between the big hospitals (not to mention the smaller programs) theres like 30 PGY1 slots available. Where are they gonna go afterwards?

Then again, I don't really care about community hospitals, and that might be a big area of growth as well. But they just don't have services like 2+ ICUs or a transplant service, etc, that would require specialty.

Unfortunately, there's not a real good alternative. I could easily get a staffing job, but I've personally seen management give staffing/clinical positions to those with residencies over many years experience; as a result, the opportunity cost lost via residency kinda balances out IMO.

 

[RX CARE]

I think the main thing to look at is that once smaller or non-progressed hospitals get the smallest opportunity to expand and implement clinical pharmacy services, they too start drinking the residency kool aid just because it's the norm. I personally don't like the endless credentialing clinical pharmacy is turning into, but I am trying to do a residency anyway not because I think it guarantees me a job, but because I should have that credential available for a certain job I may want. I think people interested in hospital primarily should consider it because the trend is really going that way......even for staff night shift positions at some places require a residency! The problem is the future.....the future.......
An oncology preceptor of mine who wants to move with her husband to another state has been denied several other oncology jobs, because she doesn't have a residency, despite doing purely oncology work for like 7 years since she got out of school. She's hoping a BCOP will fix that.......we shall see.....
Again..just putting into perspective how residency is becoming a trend, and the real impact will be felt in the not too distant future, not now when new grads can still get some staff jobs.

 

[PharmDstudent]

I think the main thing to look at is that once smaller or non-progressed hospitals get the smallest opportunity to expand and implement clinical pharmacy services, they too start drinking the residency kool aid just because it's the norm. I personally don't like the endless credentialing clinical pharmacy is turning into, but I am trying to do a residency anyway not because I think it guarantees me a job, but because I should have that credential available for a certain job I may want. I think people interested in hospital primarily should consider it because the trend is really going that way......even for staff night shift positions at some places require a residency! The problem is the future.....the future.......
An oncology preceptor of mine who wants to move with her husband to another state has been denied several other oncology jobs, because she doesn't have a residency, despite doing purely oncology work for like 7 years since she got out of school. She's hoping a BCOP will fix that.......we shall see.....
Again..just putting into perspective how residency is becoming a trend, and the real impact will be felt in the not too distant future, not now when new grads can still get some staff jobs.

7 years? BCOP certification is long overdue for her. She's the one to blame for not getting a new job, because she could have gotten that certification a lot sooner.

 

[PharmDstudent]

We are in the process of hiring an outpatient staff pharmacist where I work. We've had tons of applications from residency trained pharmacists and people with years of experience. We had at least one app from a PGY2 trained BCOP. They didn't get an interview. From what I've heard, we're hiring someone who came from Walgreens.

The position is outpatient. Walgreens is outpatient. It makes sense to me.

 

[rxlea]

Before I even got accepted to pharmacy school, overspecialization was something that my pharmacy director warned me about and I work at a teaching hospital. We hired two residency trained specialists last year for transplant. We are currently looking for 3 pharmacists and we hired one from within the institution (who was a nurse before). I can tell you that "residency trained" pharmacists are not necessarily what we are looking for, for the staffing/hybrid positions we have available. BTW, anyone need a job? Postings went up Saturday and I can put in a good word for some of you regular SDNers.

 

[Keyoda]

Remember you can sit for BCPS with 3 years hospital experience. This equals a residency in the eyes of many (not all) administrators.

Interesting point
👍👍

 

[Athelas]

I've met plenty of pharmacists who excel at what they do and they went to straight to work after graduation because a good number of pharmacists are capable of learning the "facts" on their own...

That being said...I'm still strong believer in a quality PGY1 if go inpatient because of the complexity and potential harm to patients if you don't know what the heck you are doing...and prestigious, famous hospitals does not necessarily equal a progressive pharmacy department.

A good quality site will have mentors who can help develop your critical thinking skills, which to me, is the whole point of residency.

 

[RX CARE]

7 years? BCOP certification is long overdue for her. She's the one to blame for not getting a new job, because she could have gotten that certification a lot sooner.

I know right?? Some people get really comfortable and later on realize that they have to adapt with the times. Which is really the point I was trying to make...

e.g check out the 3rd preceptor guy on this link http://www2.stlukeshouston.com/OurServices/Pharmacy/pharmacy_sr_preceptors.cfm

what was he doing the entire time? If experience really does trump everything else, I bet he wouldn't be trying to get another credential..🙂

 

[pharmagirlie]

I got matched for a residency program last year and due to a family situation that arose I had to decline offer and am now working in retail.

My friend who graduated a year earlier than mean did a residency at NYC Presbyterian and finished it and is now working. He hated residency and said that the preceptors treated him (and all the other residents) like he was a student and always questioning his judgment (clinical) because they didnt trust him. He said it was a miserable year and that he got 3-4 hours of sleep due to various projects, readings and his long commutes.

After he finished doing the residency (for 1 year) he had difficulty landing a job. He told me himself that even though he wanted to work retail (for the money) he had too much pride because it was taking a step backwards and hence wasting a year of doing his residency.For 3-4 months he was unemployed after finishing his residency and was soon able to land a hospital position but it wasnt the best hours (he has a lot of night shifts) and isnt getting paid much (less than 90k).

Yes there is going to be a bizillion new grads and pharmacist and its probably good to have a residency to distinguish yourself. But I figured by the time they graduated I would be more experience then them. And at this point I dont this there would be a salary increase for whenever the 7 year pharmacy program starts.

I work to live and not live to work, so really I rather be just enjoying my life. Im glad i didnt end up doing the residency program cause if I were to do it, I feel like I would have to climb up an endless ladder in my "career". Like what all my professors said, you should do residency if you only want to specialize or if you want to go into academia.

 

[PharmaTope]

Two controversial topics combined in one thread...uh oh! 🙂

I must preface this by saying I know there is no right or wrong answer, but I'm just interested in starting a discussion and seeing everyone's opinions of this.

We all know that with the opening of so many new pharmacy schools and increases in class sizes, we have a surplus of pharms on our hands that is only going to get worse if the profession doesn't do some serious expanding, that's nothing new.

However, how has this influenced your decision to pursue a residency or not pursue a residency?

On one hand, by doing a one year residency, you get viewed as having 3-4 years experience once finished, which gives you a competitive edge over new grads entering the job market without this. At the same time, though, with each year we have that many more grads out there competing for jobs. Looking for a job one year earlier will be less competitive than the years following.

So, putting aside your own beliefs about whether residencies are good or bad in general, when considering the pharmacy job market in the next few years, do you think it might actually be more harmful to do a residency than helpful?

to be honest, it does not give you 3-4 yrs experience according to HR. that will be considered 1 yr as a pharmacist. they will say how long have you been a pharmacist. now the pharmacy manager might consider it a VALUE of 3-4 yrs experience if you were up against other RANDOM APPLICANTS.

note i said random applicants. see, getting a job relies a lot on who you know. let's say that new grad did a rotation at that hospital. they are familiar with that person from a 5 week working experience and how they would get along with the staff and their work ethic shows too. they would be hired OVER YOU. this is true because if someone is a sure bet and they know they will fit in, it will mean nothing that you had a residency and all these qualifications.

this is the reality of life. pharmacy residency doesnt train you in a technique that nobody else can use. i.e. dentistry, podiatry, and medicine. residencies in those fields give you special training and abilities to do specific procedures that others cannot do without that training. in pharmacy you can do the same thing as an RPh that a PharmD with residency training.

Residency sounds good, but also remember that a lot of these jobs out there (clinical) do not exist. you will be competing with new grads who have already shown face bigtime there.

 

[neopharma]

Wow, thanks so much for all of the replies! Each and every one of them has been very helpful. This topic has been swimming in my head for some time. It has been nice to get some other opinions!

 

[janeno]

to be honest, it does not give you 3-4 yrs experience according to HR. that will be considered 1 yr as a pharmacist. they will say how long have you been a pharmacist. now the pharmacy manager might consider it a VALUE of 3-4 yrs experience if you were up against other RANDOM APPLICANTS.

note i said random applicants. see, getting a job relies a lot on who you know. let's say that new grad did a rotation at that hospital. they are familiar with that person from a 5 week working experience and how they would get along with the staff and their work ethic shows too. they would be hired OVER YOU. this is true because if someone is a sure bet and they know they will fit in, it will mean nothing that you had a residency and all these qualifications.

this is the reality of life. pharmacy residency doesnt train you in a technique that nobody else can use. i.e. dentistry, podiatry, and medicine. residencies in those fields give you special training and abilities to do specific procedures that others cannot do without that training. in pharmacy you can do the same thing as an RPh that a PharmD with residency training.

Residency sounds good, but also remember that a lot of these jobs out there (clinical) do not exist. you will be competing with new grads who have already shown face bigtime there.

You are so negative. You will not be able to land a hospital job in my area without a residency. Plus, residency provides extra contacts that could help you land a job - you just have to be smart selecting a residency.

 

[owlegrad]

You are so negative. You will not be able to land a hospital job in my area without a residency. Plus, residency provides extra contacts that could help you land a job - you just have to be smart selecting a residency.

I was thinking the same thing. If a rotation gives someone an "in" at the hospital they were at, wouldn't a residency do the same for the hospital where the residency was done? Your time spent in residency should help develop contacts, etc I would think. The whole arguement is just so silly.

I just don't get why some people are sooo negitive about everything. I am not even a fan of residencies, but yikes! I am not that critical.