Residency competition

[Gooch]

On a scale of 1-10, 1 being least competetive and 10 being most, how would you rank the following residencies in securing a spot as of late?:

Anesthesiology

Emergency Medicine

Ophthalmology

I'm guessing Dermatology would be a 10. Is this true for the osteopathic derm residencies?

Please dont move this to the residency forum. I want to know more specifically what DO students think, being able to choose between MD and DO residencies.

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[allendo]

On a scale of 1-10, 1 being least competetive and 10 being most, how would you rank the following residencies in securing a spot as of late?:

Anesthesiology 8!

Emergency Medicine 7!

Ophthalmology 9!

I'm guessing Dermatology would be a 10. Is this true for the osteopathic derm residencies?

Please dont move this to the residency forum. I want to know more specifically what DO students think, being able to choose between MD and DO residencies.

Anesthesiology 8!

Emergency Medicine 7!

Ophthalmology 9!

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Anesthesia is still pretty easy for a DO.

 

[DireWolf]

Anesthesia is still pretty easy for a DO.

I disagree. Applications were up 20% this year, and so was the quality of the applicants.

The official AAMC data showed about 1800 US seniors and 1000 FMG/IMGs submitted ERAS applications for anesthesia this year.

There were 1300 spots available this year, so 1500 had to scramble for 24 open spots.

While all applicants felt the crunch this year, DOs did especially.


I think 8/10 is pretty accurate.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Anesthesiology

Emergency Medicine

Ophthalmology

Anethesia - 6-7

EM - 7

Ophthalmology - 9

I may be way off, but I still think EM is slightly more competitive than Anesthesia. If current trends continue, this is likely to change real soon.

 

[Claymore]

ophtho - 9
anesth - 6
EM - 5

Ophtho is pretty much in another league...I don't think anyone from my class matched into it this year. We had 10+ or so going into each of EM and Anesth.

 

[DuMulch]

Anethesia - 6-7

EM - 7

Ophthalmology - 9

I may be way off, but I still think EM is slightly more competitive than Anesthesia. If current trends continue, this is likely to change real soon.

Off topic but what current trends are you speaking off??

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Off topic but what current trends are you speaking off??

The explosion of students applying for anesthesia these days.

 

[wook]

On a scale of 1-10, 1 being least competetive and 10 being most, how would you rank the following residencies in securing a spot as of late?:

Anesthesiology

Emergency Medicine

Ophthalmology

I'm guessing Dermatology would be a 10. Is this true for the osteopathic derm residencies?

Please dont move this to the residency forum. I want to know more specifically what DO students think, being able to choose between MD and DO residencies.

Ophth 9
Anes 8
EM 7

Both EM and Anesth are fairly competitive. There were people from my class that did not match in either this year.


Wook

 

[DireWolf]

Just to put everything in perspective, this is my opinion of the current relative competitiveness of each specialty.

10:
Derm
Rad Onc
Plastics

9:
Ophtho
Uro
ENT
Ortho
Rads
Neurosurgery

8:
Anesthesia
GS

7:
EM
PM&R
OBGYN

6:
Path
Neurology

<5:
IM
Psych
FP
Peds

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Just to put everything in perspective, this is my opinion of the current relative competitiveness of each specialty.

10:
Derm
Rad Onc
Plastics

9:
Ophtho
Uro
ENT
Ortho
Rads
Neurosurgery

8:
Anesthesia
GS

7:
EM
PM&R
OBGYN

6:
Path
Neurology

<5:
IM
Psych
FP
Peds

I won't argue too much with the above order of things. Remember as a DO for just about everything things become exponentially harder (if not impossible) at the top-tier places for things like IM.

My point is that there are lots of DO's out there in good gas ACGME programs. Not the case for GS. GS is a tough match for DO's, SDN was littered with threads last month lamenting this fact. SO I think that alone is enough to drop gas down some in the above list. Plus the specialties rated at 9/10 or 10/10 are an EXPONENTIAL jump for DO's.

When I matched all the talk was how tough anesthesia was going to be. I think it is more competitive now, but still easily within grasp of a DO who playes their cards right.

 

[DireWolf]

I won't argue too much with the above order of things. Remember as a DO for just about everything things become exponentially harder (if not impossible) at the top-tier places for things like IM.

My point is that there are lots of DO's out there in good gas ACGME programs. Not the case for GS. GS is a tough match for DO's, SDN was littered with threads last month lamenting this fact. SO I think that alone is enough to drop gas down some in the above list. Plus the specialties rated at 9/10 or 10/10 are an EXPONENTIAL jump for DO's.

When I matched all the talk was how tough anesthesia was going to be. I think it is more competitive now, but still easily within grasp of a DO who playes their cards right.

I totally agree with you. I was ranking these specialties on general competitiveness (whether you are a MD, DO, FMG, IMG). I was NOT correlating the rankings in regards to being a DO.

I agree that anesthesia is still a fairly DO friendly specialty.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I totally agree with you. I was ranking these specialties on general competitiveness (whether you are a MD, DO, FMG, IMG). I was NOT correlating the rankings in regards to being a DO.

I agree that anesthesia is still a fairly DO friendly specialty.

I have no quarrel with that.

 

[tsazmand]

quick question.....what happens if someone(DO) is applying say to EM residency and doesnt match....what happens then? pardon if this is a stupid question...

thanks

 

[FS-Pro]

quick question.....what happens if someone(DO) is applying say to EM residency and doesnt match....what happens then? pardon if this is a stupid question...

thanks

They try again next year

 

[Taus]

They try again next year

you can try to "scramble" for a spot....or in some specialties (such as EM) you have to do a separate internship anyway.... so you can re-apply while doing your internship

 

[docmd2010]

I think the bias with d.o.'s in the upper tier residences is not there because of an anti-D.O. policy held by the PD but rather that D.O.'s, on average, score lower than US MD's do on the boards, and on average, don't do as well as US MD's do in other academic related fields. Thus, those upper-competitive residencies have fewer d.o's because, well, let's be honest, most of them probably didn't do as well s the MD"s did on the USMLE's. This is frankly my opinion. If you're a PD and u get two applicants to a neurosurgery residency, one's a do and one's an md, and the d.o. has higher board scores, better bedside manner, than what the hell, you're gonna pick the md because his initials are more common? please everyone, don't make comments about things being "exponentially" harder for d.o.'s getting into competitive residencies. lot of people that are unfamiliar with how things really work can easily be disheartened by the above comments.

 

[DireWolf]

I think the bias with d.o.'s in the upper tier residences is not there because of an anti-D.O. policy held by the PD but rather that D.O.'s, on average, score lower than US MD's do on the boards, and on average, don't do as well as US MD's do in other academic related fields. Thus, those upper-competitive residencies have fewer d.o's because, well, let's be honest, most of them probably didn't do as well s the MD"s did on the USMLE's. This is frankly my opinion. If you're a PD and u get two applicants to a neurosurgery residency, one's a do and one's an md, and the d.o. has higher board scores, better bedside manner, than what the hell, you're gonna pick the md because his initials are more common? please everyone, don't make comments about things being "exponentially" harder for d.o.'s getting into competitive residencies. lot of people that are unfamiliar with how things really work can easily be disheartened by the above comments.

This coming from someone who hasn't even started medical school yet?

As someone who has gone through the process, there are many competitive specalties in which DOs are discriminated against just because of the letters behind their name. It is standard for PDs not to even offer interviews to DOs in some competitive specialties and in certain programs regardless of how well they performed in medical school. Some PDs do not always take the best applicants - they take the best US MD applicants. FMGs/IMGs run into the same problems as DOs - and even moreso. Many of them have 250+ boards, great LORs, research and are still shut out.

I suggest you wallow in your own ignorance and stop trying to spread false information around here.

 

[MoxieDO]

This coming from someone who hasn't even started medical school yet?

As someone who has gone through the process, there are many competitive specalties in which DOs are discriminated against just because of the letters behind their name. It is standard for PDs not to even offer interviews to DOs in some competitive specialties and in certain programs regardless of how well they performed in medical school. Some PDs do not always take the best applicants - they take the best US MD applicants. FMGs/IMGs run into the same problems as DOs - and even moreso. Many of them have 250+ boards, great LORs, research and are still shut out.

I suggest you wallow in your own ignorance and stop trying to spread false information around here.

agreed.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

docmd2010:

 

[DO Sigma Nu guy]

docmd2010:

 

[wook]

This coming from someone who hasn't even started medical school yet?

As someone who has gone through the process, there are many competitive specalties in which DOs are discriminated against just because of the letters behind their name. It is standard for PDs not to even offer interviews to DOs in some competitive specialties and in certain programs regardless of how well they performed in medical school. Some PDs do not always take the best applicants - they take the best US MD applicants. FMGs/IMGs run into the same problems as DOs - and even moreso. Many of them have 250+ boards, great LORs, research and are still shut out.

I suggest you wallow in your own ignorance and stop trying to spread false information around here.

Agreed.

Wook

 

[mocheese]

I think the bias with d.o.'s in the upper tier residences is not there because of an anti-D.O. policy held by the PD but rather that D.O.'s, on average, score lower than US MD's do on the boards, and on average, don't do as well as US MD's do in other academic related fields. Thus, those upper-competitive residencies have fewer d.o's because, well, let's be honest, most of them probably didn't do as well s the MD"s did on the USMLE's. This is frankly my opinion. If you're a PD and u get two applicants to a neurosurgery residency, one's a do and one's an md, and the d.o. has higher board scores, better bedside manner, than what the hell, you're gonna pick the md because his initials are more common? please everyone, don't make comments about things being "exponentially" harder for d.o.'s getting into competitive residencies. lot of people that are unfamiliar with how things really work can easily be disheartened by the above comments.

good point docmd2010, you dumb A##hole.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Just to put everything in perspective, this is my opinion of the current relative competitiveness of each specialty.

10:
Derm
Rad Onc
Plastics

9:
Ophtho
Uro
ENT
Ortho
Rads
Neurosurgery

8:
Anesthesia
GS

7:
EM
PM&R
OBGYN

6:
Path
Neurology

<5:
IM
Psych
FP
Peds

Great list! I'm glad I know about SDN so I can get a heads up display of what its going to be like in the future for me.

It looks like Opthomology is out of the picture for me

I feel sad now because I shadowed a DO ENT and opthamologist too!


Well such is my life...

 

[DireWolf]

Great list! I'm glad I know about SDN so I can get a heads up display of what its going to be like in the future for me.

It looks like Opthomology is out of the picture for me

I feel sad now because I shadowed a DO ENT and opthamologist too!


Well such is my life...

Allopathic ophthalmology will be a long shot for a DO - no doubt. But not impossible. In addition, there are a couple DO ophtho programs.

In order to maximize your chances:
1. Honor most/all of your 3rd-4th year rotations
2. USMLE Step 1/2 > 240
3. Rotate at one or two allopathic places and get a couple strong LORs from big wigs
4. Ophtho research
5. Apply to a lot of programs in a lot of geographic locations
6. Interview well
7. Pray

 

[docbill]

7. Pray

Oh Mannn I can't do this well. So I guess I will never be an opthamologist.

BTW, I think OB/GYN and PM&R are a bit easier than that for DO students.

I am surprised that you put IM all the way at the bottom. It does depend on what program you are going to. If its an good Allopathic University Hospital afiliated program it is not that easy. But I hope you are completely right about (and that I am so wrong) in 3 years when I am matching to IM.

 

[DireWolf]

Oh Mannn I can't do this well. So I guess I will never be an opthamologist.

BTW, I think OB/GYN and PM&R are a bit easier than that for DO students.

I am surprised that you put IM all the way at the bottom. It does depend on what program you are going to. If its an good Allopathic University Hospital afiliated program it is not that easy. But I hope you are completely right about (and that I am so wrong) in 3 years when I am matching to IM.

I knew this was going to come up. The reality is that coming up with a comprehensive ranking system is almost impossible. There are too many nuances to consider. The rankings I provided were meant to be quick and dirty, and are pretty accurate generally speaking.

My rankings basically say - this is how easy/difficult it is to get a spot in this specialty. Not necessarily a spot at a top program - just a spot.

Obviously if you want to get into a top IM program it will be just as competitive as getting into any Derm program. But generally speaking, if you want an IM spot, you will get one. That is totally not the case with Derm.

Rankings that take into account every factor and detail would encompass pages on this thread.

Just keeping things basic, my rankings are accurate.

And ONCE AGAIN, the rankings do not take into account the DO factor - they are general rankings that apply to all graduates - MD, DO, IMG, FMG.

If you want to break them down into which specialties are more "DO friendly", etc. then feel free. But that was not the purpose of my rankings.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Allopathic ophthalmology will be a long shot for a DO - no doubt. But not impossible. In addition, there are a couple DO ophtho programs.

In order to maximize your chances:
1. Honor most/all of your 3rd-4th year rotations
2. USMLE Step 1/2 > 240
3. Rotate at one or two allopathic places and get a couple strong LORs from big wigs
4. Ophtho research
5. Apply to a lot of programs in a lot of geographic locations
6. Interview well
7. Pray

Great advice!

 

[MikeyLu2010]

which specialties are more DO friendly?? (non PCP)

 

[DireWolf]

which specialties are more DO friendly?? (non PCP)

Most friendly:
Psych
Neurology
Path

Very friendly:
EM
PM&R

Moderately friendly:
Anesthesia
OBGYN

Occasionally friendly:
GS
Ortho
Rads

*Not friendly at all:
ENT
Uro
Ophtho
Rand Onc
Derm
Plastics
Neurosurgery


*I know everyone is going to come out of the woodwork and share their anecdotal story about a DO who matched into an allopathic program in one of these specialties. While DOs have accomplished that feat in each of these specialties in the past, the actual numbers are excruciatingly low - like count on one or two hands low.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

Thx direwolf, btw what did you match in..or what are you most interested in applying to..

 

[deleted92121]

Why is EM ranked higher than IM or FP? I thought that so long as you do well in Med School and Rotations, etc that you can get into an EM program with little fuss. Am I mistaken?

Please forgive me if there is some common knowledge out there about this subject but I am a lowly pre-med..

dxu

 

[DireWolf]

There are more allopathic EM programs that are not DO friendly compared to IM or FP.

Please read my explanation in the previous post. As a DO you can match allopathic EM if you do well in med school. But be prepared to be shut out at some programs like Hennepin, etc.

EM is "very DO friendly", so I wouldn't be discouraged at all.


I matched allopathic anesthesiology this year.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

congrats direwolf. stats? and any suggestions on how to be a competitive anesth applicant?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I think the bias with d.o.'s in the upper tier residences is not there because of an anti-D.O. policy held by the PD but rather that D.O.'s, on average, score lower than US MD's do on the boards, and on average, don't do as well as US MD's do in other academic related fields. Thus, those upper-competitive residencies have fewer d.o's because, well, let's be honest, most of them probably didn't do as well s the MD"s did on the USMLE's. This is frankly my opinion. If you're a PD and u get two applicants to a neurosurgery residency, one's a do and one's an md, and the d.o. has higher board scores, better bedside manner, than what the hell, you're gonna pick the md because his initials are more common? please everyone, don't make comments about things being "exponentially" harder for d.o.'s getting into competitive residencies. lot of people that are unfamiliar with how things really work can easily be disheartened by the above comments.

Good lord you are so clueless and out of touch with reality I cant even bother to type any more of a reply.

 

[homeboy]

Despite the futility of anecdotal stories, i'll share a quick one...
3rd yr anesth resident i know graduated in top 5 of his class, 'smoked' boards (those were his words anyway, so i dunno what his standards were), and had some good LORs...failed to match ophtho two yrs in a row, so settled for anesth.
Another anecdotal...the matches of the OMM fellows at my school for the past 2 yrs have all been anesth (except for 1 EM)...not sure where the EM was but the anesth matches were at the Cleveland Clinic, Rush University, and some others.

Many PDs for upper tier specialties (particularly in the surgical specialties) are old school MDs...we've got an allopathic GS res and an osteopathic GS res at the 2 big hospitals in town here...there's never been a single DO resident to go through the allo res, party in fact (I wouldn't doubt) because they use the logic, "if you want to do GS, do the AOA one at your hospital."

having an 'in' can be more valuable than a few ranks ahead in class, particularly if you can rotate with someone who has good creds. but it's true what previous posts have said: the current DOs in ophtho / ENT / etc...either went to an AOA res (of which there are only a few) or they had a serious 'in.'

 

[homeboy]

Something to consider if you're willing...the military residencies are particularly easier to match if you're willing to go that route. Example...there's umpteen (not sure how many) ophtho residencies and the ratio of accepts / apps is pretty low, while for the 8 military ophtho spots, there were 9 applicants a yr or two ago.

 

[nvshelat]

Many PDs for upper tier specialties (particularly in the surgical specialties) are old school MDs...we've got an allopathic GS res and an osteopathic GS res at the 2 big hospitals in town here...there's never been a single DO resident to go through the allo res, party in fact (I wouldn't doubt) because they use the logic, "if you want to do GS, do the AOA one at your hospital."

homeboy, i actually consider this a bit alarming. It means if the wack ass separatist attitude of the AOA continues, more DOs will be stuck in osteo hospitals as opposed to bigger name, academic institutions.

 

[homeboy]

homeboy, i actually consider this a bit alarming. It means if the wack ass separatist attitude of the AOA continues, more DOs will be stuck in osteo hospitals as opposed to bigger name, academic institutions.

yea, it doesn't sit too well with me either...
the hospital that has the AOA GS res isn't even an osteopathic hospital, it's just the one most of the students do 3rd yr rotations.
on the bright side, our dean is a surgical oncologist who knows his stuff cold and we rotate with him during hospital block...I think he did a military residency.

 

[Dr.MISHKA D.O.]

Okay Direwolf I wanted to say congrats to you on matching well and hope your happy at your program as I am sure I will be, but I would call EM and Gas at least equal in level of competition, if EM is not greater (which I actually think it is) I still know lots of EM programs still under the umbrella of the surgery dept. which is very DO unfriendly.
At many of my interviews I would be the only or one of the few DO's interveiwing. Many of the old guard programs just don't let DO's get a foot in the door, like Denver (I know they have had a couple) and U of Chicago. Also, I heard a few times from my interviewers that I had the highest boards of anyone they interviewed that season. This just shows you have to be better than the MD applicants to get the same consideration. Just my 0.02

Best Wishes

The Mish

 

[Cowboy DO]

Allopathic ophthalmology will be a long shot for a DO - no doubt. But not impossible. In addition, there are a couple DO ophtho programs.

In order to maximize your chances:
1. Honor most/all of your 3rd-4th year rotations
2. USMLE Step 1/2 > 240
3. Rotate at one or two allopathic places and get a couple strong LORs from big wigs
4. Ophtho research
5. Apply to a lot of programs in a lot of geographic locations
6. Interview well
7. Pray

Crap. Optho rates a 9 on your difficulty scale. I want to go rads which is also a 9, I guess my 233 and lack of research puts me out of the running.

So now hows this work? I choose something with an 8?

Point is not to pick on Direwolf, but to the people who actually think these posts are helpful. Sure you can't go willy-nilly applying to radonc spots, or you'll wake up one Monday sorely disappointed. However if you want information about a certain specialty go to that specialties forum, or ask a current resident to gather information. Anything else is speculation.

If you want info from Direwolf ask him about anesthesia. I'm absolutely not ragging on him but how much can he know about optho competitiveness with out applying for it. I'm sure he's not far off in all honesty and its not what I would call bad advice by any standards, but I digress. Point is if you want to assess your competitiveness for optho talk to current residents, you might be pleasantly surprised (or tragically disappointed).

For instance I know radiology isnt as competitive as it used to be (at least I hope) it probably rates more a "8-8.5"(whatever that means). I have been in contact with about 8 DO's applying to rads, I know where they got accepted and their stats. While not an amazing sample size, I certainly have a better perception of competitiveness than someone who isn't applying or didn't apply to rads.

 

[EM2BE]

docmd2010:

I just saw that picture and it made me laugh!!! Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. (I'm studying for finals (and procrastinating obviously))

 

[DireWolf]

Crap. Optho rates a 9 on your difficulty scale. I want to go rads which is also a 9, I guess my 233 and lack of research puts me out of the running.

So now hows this work? I choose something with an 8?

Point is not to pick on Direwolf, but to the people who actually think these posts are helpful. Sure you can't go willy-nilly applying to radonc spots, or you'll wake up one Monday sorely disappointed. However if you want information about a certain specialty go to that specialties forum, or ask a current resident to gather information. Anything else is speculation.

If you want info from Direwolf ask him about anesthesia. I'm absolutely not ragging on him but how much can he know about optho competitiveness with out applying for it. I'm sure he's not far off in all honesty and its not what I would call bad advice by any standards, but I digress. Point is if you want to assess your competitiveness for optho talk to current residents, you might be pleasantly surprised (or tragically disappointed).

For instance I know radiology isnt as competitive as it used to be (at least I hope) it probably rates more a "8-8.5"(whatever that means). I have been in contact with about 8 DO's applying to rads, I know where they got accepted and their stats. While not an amazing sample size, I certainly have a better perception of competitiveness than someone who isn't applying or didn't apply to rads.

Actually my ophtho advice came from a buddy of mine, a PGY-2 ophtho resident. It is also backed up by numerous posts in the ophthalmology forum, including Dr. Doan, the moderator.

 

[Idiopathic]

Also, I heard a few times from my interviewers that I had the highest boards of anyone they interviewed that season.

Yeah, for EM

 

[neutropenic]

My 2 cents, DO friendly with +.

10.0 - Uber competitive
Need to be a "better" allo student to go allo for these usually

Derm
Rad Onc
* wasn't that hard a match a decade or so ago
Plastics​

9.0 - Most Competitive
Infrequent DO/IMG in allo residencies, in reach of many allos, have always been more exclusive matches

Ophtho
Uro
ENT
Ortho
Neurosurgery​

8.0 - Very Competitive
These two have way more IMGs than the 9.0 fields and just way more spots and community programs compared to the 9.0 fields

Rads
* wasn't popular a decade or so ago
GS
* frequently a backup plan of 9.0 fields, wasn't popular again until the 80h work week started​

7.0 - Moderately Competitive
In reach of most allo grads if not picky where - frequent IMG/DOs

Anesthesia +
* possibly bumped up if trends continue, couldn't get anyone to touch it maybe 15 years ago
EM +
* had a bump with the tv show ER, down a bit now
OB/GYN +
* was even fairly recently 1/3 IMGs, less now, used to be really competitive back "in the day" before the litigation crisis
PM&R ++
* was fairly recently also very IMG friendly, but now not so much, has always been super DO friendly​

6.0 - Somewhat Competitive
Fields with many IMGs

Neurology +
Path​

5.0 - Somewhat less than Somewhat Competitive
A field for whatever reason with fewer foreign graduates and DO friendly

Peds +
* IMHO the hardest of the PCP specialties​

4.0 - Less Competitive
In reach of almost everyone

IM ++
Psych +​

3.0 - Not Very Competitive

FP ++​

With all this being said, of course, we had many of our strongest graduates (from my allo school) go into internal medicine and some less stellar graduates go into the 9.0 and 8.0 fields so I am not sure what this all means.

http://residency.wustl.edu/ - is not necessarily accurate as there is a lot of self selection in competitive fields, but a good reference nonetheless

 

[nvshelat]

Hi guys, I'll be an MSI and was wondering where in the scheme of things you would rank an allo cards or GI residency in terms of competitiveness?
Thanks!

 

[neutropenic]

Hi guys, I'll be an MSI and was wondering where in the scheme of things you would rank an allo cards or GI residency in terms of competitiveness?
Thanks!

These are fellowships off of internal medicine. You generally cannot apply for them out of med school, unless you do one of the fastrak research ones I think (but am unsure).

For most future gastroenterologists and cardiologists, their fellowship chances may be linked to where they do IM as that will give them exposure, contacts and letters which are needed for securing a fellowship.

I know of at least one DO who finished an allo IM program that is doing a cards fellowship.

 

[realmdo]

docmd2010: