MD Residency hours

[Kurk]

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I'm too much of a goody two shoes to take adderall. I will have to consider "natural" ways.

 

[Peach Newport]

I am a diagnostic radiology resident, already matched into IR.

How hard is it to match IR after DR? My guess is "viciously, requiring an extremely prestigious DR residency but I'm just an incoming OMS2.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

How hard is it to match IR after DR? My guess is "viciously, requiring an extremely prestigious DR residency but I'm just an incoming OMS2.

Right now, it's very hard to match at a top 10 fellowship but it's not hard to get an IR fellowship. Not sure about the future.

 

[Peach Newport]

Right now, it's very hard to match at a top 10 fellowship but it's not hard to get an IR fellowship. Not sure about the future.

I thought it would be more competitive. Tell me if I'm incorrect, but I thought:

DR: easy to get into a residency because it's extremely difficult to get a job because of low demand for diagnostic radiologists.

IR: very in-demand, easy to find work, extremely high pay and good hours.

So I thought that pretty much all DRs would be scrambling for the IR spots.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I thought it would be more competitive. Tell me if I'm incorrect, but I thought:

DR: easy to get into a residency because it's extremely difficult to get a job because of low demand for diagnostic radiologists.

IR: very in-demand, easy to find work, extremely high pay and good hours.

So I thought that pretty much all DRs would be scrambling for the IR spots.

Med student perception lags behind job market. Radiology is back to top 10 most sought after physician specialty according to merill hawkins report this year with demand doubling every year since 2015, But of course med student haven't been clued in yet.

I haven't had any coresident who had trouble finding a job. A job in California or NYC will be hard but so is every other job like that.

When I spoke with my fellowship director in the top IR program I matched to, he told me the only region I would remotely have trouble with is Manhattan proper. Norcal, socal, Brooklyn or Bronx wouldn't be an issue.

Due to the better job market, people who don't have a surgical mind set don't want to do IR. This means IR fellowship itself is less competitive as job market gets better.

However, the top fellowships are still competitive. I know applicants with randomized clinical trails, step score above 270s, pages and pages of research in their CVs and their own research grant. I cannot wait to train with those brilliant indivduals.

Now, for med students, integrated IR program is similar in competitiveness to radonc I think.

 

[Peach Newport]

Med student perception lags behind job market. Radiology is back to top 10 most sought after physician specialty according to merill hawkins report this year with demand doubling every year since 2015, But of course med student haven't been clued in yet.

I haven't had any coresident who had trouble finding a job. A job in California or NYC will be hard but so is every other job like that.

When I spoke with my fellowship director in the top IR program I matched to, he told me the only region I would remotely have trouble with is Manhattan proper. Norcal, socal, Brooklyn or Bronx wouldn't be an issue.

Due to the better job market, people who don't have a surgical mind set don't want to do IR. This means IR fellowship itself is less competitive as job market gets better.

However, the top fellowships are still competitive. I know applicants with randomized clinical trails, step score above 270s, pages and pages of research in their CVs and their own research grant. I cannot wait to train with those brilliant indivduals.

Now, for med students, integrated IR program is similar in competitiveness to radonc I think.

Is radiology a very math-heavy field? I could imagine that radiology requires extensively knowledge of the math/physics behind imaging machinery, etc. as someone who nearly failed quantum physics, I'm nervous about rads.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Is radiology a very math-heavy field? I could imagine that radiology requires extensively knowledge of the math/physics behind imaging machinery, etc. as someone who nearly failed quantum physics, I'm nervous about rads.

Absolutely no math required.

 

[cbrons]

Claim definitely not exaggerated. However, specialties do vary in how many hours you put in for residency - however, across the board the hours will be more than a normal 9-5 position. Welcome to medicine.

9 to 5 lol.

 

[cbrons]

If they were the copilot and the actual pilot (the attending) were well rested, sure. And if they had all the extra sets of eyes on the controls that we do (nurses, PAs, NPs, RTs, etc). The pilot analogy fails to work because in health care, there are several levels of human judgment that must fail before harm comes to a patient, whereas in most aircraft, there are only two sets of eyes at any given time.

That group aint going to help you much at times. Sometimes in fact, some of that group will actively make your life much harder... sometimes because they are incompetent, other times because they are lazy, still other times because they are just bad people (rare though). That being said, you can actually get away with 2 of these things as a resident to some extent. But what you absolutely cannot get away with in residency is laziness.

 

[Mad Jack]

That group aint going to help you much at times. Sometimes in fact, some of that group will actively make your life much harder... sometimes because they are incompetent, other times because they are lazy, still other times because they are just bad people (rare though). That being said, you can actually get away with 2 of these things as a resident to some extent. But what you absolutely cannot get away with in residency is laziness.

I'd disagree, but I've worked in an exceptional place that had great staff. Literally amongst the best in the world. Sorry you work with trash.

 

[cbrons]

I'd disagree, but I've worked in an exceptional place that had great staff. Literally amongst the best in the world. Sorry you work with trash.

I don't work with "trash" but sometimes ancillary non-physician personnel don't make things easier for you. Case in point: nurse paging every 10 minutes for things that are clearly not urgent or important, which he/she knows isn't urgent, but does so anyway because reasons.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't work with "trash" but sometimes ancillary non-physician personnel don't make things easier for you. Case in point: nurse paging every 10 minutes for things that are clearly not urgent or important, which he/she knows isn't urgent, but does so anyway because reasons.

Never said they make things easier. My point was that they can keep you from killing people every now and again, because they are there with the patient for all of the 10+ hours you aren't. And if they can at least recognize that someone is dying or something is wrong, they can save your ass.

 

[njtrimed]

I don't work with "trash" but sometimes ancillary non-physician personnel don't make things easier for you. Case in point: nurse paging every 10 minutes for things that are clearly not urgent or important, which he/she knows isn't urgent, but does so anyway because reasons.

In many cases, nurses only do that to residents who treat them poorly...

 

[kb0275]

I am a diagnostic radiology resident, already matched into IR.

Can you please describe your hoirs at work? Thanks

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Can you please describe your hoirs at work? Thanks

I start everyday at 8am, ends the day at 5pm on regular day. In my fourth year, I no longer take much call, but If I do take call it's an additional 15-16 hours per week. So it's 65 to 66 hrs a week if I take call and 50 if I don't.

My future fellowship probably will be at "80" hours.

 

[JPSmyth]

I start everyday at 8am, ends the day at 5pm on regular day. In my fourth year, I no longer take much call, but If I do take call it's an additional 15-16 hours per week. So it's 65 to 66 hrs a week if I take call and 50 if I don't.

My future fellowship probably will be at "80" hours.

I thought I read somewhere that IR fellowship was like 60 hours per week? Or is that without call

 

[cbrons]

In many cases, nurses only do that to residents who treat them poorly...

Or bc they are young and inexperienced, and know you won't yell at them for paging you. It's not always their fault. Sometimes a system failure.

I am too smart (or at least not dumb enough) to treat nurses badly.

 

[ConfusedChemist]

Did I say anything about retail? Plenty of people in the medical field work double shifts regularly, or have two jobs. That's just reality.

Exactly. My guess is that since a good number of medical students come from on average very affluent families, they haven't seen the hours people in other fields work to make ends meet

 

[Localnative]

Or DDS 🙂[/QUOTE]

Keyboard warriors who don't speak from experience.

I'm a dual degree'd Oral/Maxillofacial Surgeon, with an additional fellowship year (11 years of school post undergrad) who works 80+ a week right now. Between some Hospital based cases and office based practice/travel time/non clinical time, each week can be a long haul. When I was a resident several years ago, no time limits while on call/post call patient time (clinic, rounding, floor duties). You left when the work was done. Longest stretch was 142 hours at U Mich Hospital, a notoriously very starch collared establishment that expects peak performance from residents at any level 24/7. Or else you are put on notice.

Stereotype vanquished.

 

[W19]

sue them if they violate the 80-hr rule...

 

[sloh]

posted in wrong thread

 

[anbuitachi]

For the majority of fields, you will only approach 80/week on inpatient months and during your intern year.

So only 6-9 months out of intern year and fewer after that for fields like medicine, pediatrics, neurology, etc.

EM has a lower cap (60hrs I believe). Anesthesia averages around 55hrs according to what their residents tell me (programs above 60 are looked at very unfavorably on the trail). @Mad Jack ran down a list of a bunch of other lower hour fields.

The only fields that consistently run in the 80 range (Esp after intern year) are surgical specialties.

Residency is not as bad as many people say it is. Surgery/surgical specialties are the tough ones and you will work 80 or more hours/week for most of your residency. Anesthesiology is also rough since it goes along with surgery.. The problem with these two is that you are in the ORs all year long. There is no down time like in medicine in clinic or elective so you will be consistently working heavy hours.

IM is not bad at all, it's only 3 years, inpatient months are rough, but most programs do not have that many inpatient months per year, since you also get clinic and elective time.
Derm, PMR, Optho, Rad Onc, Path, Psych are chill residencies that are more like a normal job. Radiology hours is pretty good too.
EM hours is amazing as well but only if you like the ED.

 

[anbuitachi]

Are there no laws that govern residency?


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Not sure but my friend is a lawyer in employment and labor, and he says they stay away from medical stuff, cause that's a different beast and are governed by its own rules. Things that are not OK elsewhere would be ok in medicine.

 

[mcloaf]

Residency is not as bad as many people say it is. Surgery/surgical specialties are the tough ones and you will work 80 or more hours/week for most of your residency. Anesthesiology is also rough since it goes along with surgery.. The problem with these two is that you are in the ORs all year long. There is no down time like in medicine in clinic or elective so you will be consistently working heavy hours.

IM is not bad at all, it's only 3 years, inpatient months are rough, but most programs do not have that many inpatient months per year, since you also get clinic and elective time.
Derm, PMR, Optho, Rad Onc, Path, are chill residencies that are more like a normal job. Radiology hours is pretty good too.
EM hours is amazing as well but only if you like the ED.

Not sure about anesthesia. It's not like they're one to one with surgeons all day, they sub in and out of cases all the time while the surgeons keep working. I guess relative to something like derm it is definitely more intense.

 

[Donald Juan]

Residency is not as bad as many people say it is. Surgery/surgical specialties are the tough ones and you will work 80 or more hours/week for most of your residency. Anesthesiology is also rough since it goes along with surgery.. The problem with these two is that you are in the ORs all year long. There is no down time like in medicine in clinic or elective so you will be consistently working heavy hours.

I don't think the bolded is true.

 

[anbuitachi]

Not sure about anesthesia. It's not like they're one to one with surgeons all day, they sub in and out of cases all the time while the surgeons keep working. I guess relative to something like derm it is definitely more intense.

I don't think the bolded is true.

That just shows how little people know about anesthesiology residency =). The relief system is obviously different from surgerys, but that doesn't mean much (having done it myself). As a surgeon, you do your fields cases (eg plastics does plastics cases) divided by the number of residents you have. For the most part, I stay in the OR longer than the specific surgeon, because the surgeon usually isn't operating for entire day. Some have clinic in morning, or afternoon or might just not have enough cases to fill the OR daily. So often times a OR is filled with 2 or even more surgeons.

Anesthesiology residents cover all the surgeries, and non OR cases (endo, cards, IR, cysto). The residents hours is less than surgical specialties, but still more than medicine hours on average.
I personally have done medicine inpatient floors as a resident. I also live with medicine resident. People often forget just how many months of clinic and elective medicine people have and how little call they have. Even their 'calls' typically end before 10pm which isn't bad at all

Another thing medical students often hear about EM, but not so much anesthesiology is the constant change in work hour (such as evening or night). Anesthesiology has more shifts per month, and just as much night time shifts as EM. Just looking at my schedule for August , I have 7 24 hour calls, and 6 non 24 hr calls (Usually leave before 11pm), for a total of 13 calls, despite having 2 of my vacation days in august

 

[Donald Juan]

That just shows how little people know about anesthesiology residency =). The relief system is obviously different from surgerys, but that doesn't mean much (having done it myself). As a surgeon, you do your fields cases (eg plastics does plastics cases) divided by the number of residents you have. For the most part, I stay in the OR longer than the specific surgeon, because the surgeon usually isn't operating for entire day. Some have clinic in morning, or afternoon or might just not have enough cases to fill the OR daily. So often times a OR is filled with 2 or even more surgeons.

Anesthesiology residents cover all the surgeries, and non OR cases (endo, cards, IR, cysto). The residents hours is less than surgical specialties, but still more than medicine hours on average.
I personally have done medicine inpatient floors as a resident. I also live with medicine resident. People often forget just how many months of clinic and elective medicine people have and how little call they have. Even their 'calls' typically end before 10pm which isn't bad at all

Another thing medical students often hear about EM, but not so much anesthesiology is the constant change in work hour (such as evening or night). Anesthesiology has more shifts per month, and just as much night time shifts as EM. Just looking at my schedule for August , I have 7 24 hour calls, and 6 non 24 hr calls (Usually leave before 11pm), for a total of 13 calls, despite having 2 of my vacation days in august

I was more basing my feelings that anesthesia isn't comparable because of how many people I know who left surgery to do anesthesia and comment on how much more reasonable their life is.

 

[anbuitachi]

Yeah I don't know about that. I will grant the points about lots of night call (and early starts to your days).

But it is an exceptionally rare day when I start the day with the same anesthesia team that I finish it with. Almost every day, the team we start with gets relieved at some point in the afternoon (relief starts at 3pm unless the resident is on call). Attendings get relieved too. Not to mention the numerous breaks and lunch hour and relief from CRNAs for an hour of protected teaching conf 3x/wk.

Maybe your hospital is structured differently, but it's a rare day for me as a resident to not have a full roster of cases. We tend to be in clinic or in the OR; the only time we are doing both is when it is so busy that we have to pull double duty and basically try to be in two places at once (in which case I would definitely argue it's not a "lighter" day than just being in the OR).

I don't mean in any way to start a flame war about anesthesia, as I have a great number of friends who do it and I respect their expertise. But the day to day for an anesthesia resident vs a surgery resident? No contest.

Oh i wasn't saying Anesthesia hrs > surgery. I actually said anesthesia is in between surgery and medicine. It's just that for some reason they put Anes as part of ROAD specialties and medical students get mislead and go into anesthesiology cause they think its a life style residency..
But it sounds like your hospital has an insanely chill anesthesia program. I never heard of any anesthesia resident anywhere getting a hr long lunch break or having an hr of protected teaching3x a week . Wow . Where is this magical place?

And another reason anesthesiology hours are higher than what people assume is due to 24 hr in house calls which many specialties do not do.

A lot of surgeons switch to anesthesiology, 1 for better hours, and 2 its a shorter residency, and 3 anesthesiologists are WAY nicer in general.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Or DDS 🙂

Keyboard warriors who don't speak from experience.

I'm a dual degree'd Oral/Maxillofacial Surgeon, with an additional fellowship year (11 years of school post undergrad) who works 80+ a week right now. Between some Hospital based cases and office based practice/travel time/non clinical time, each week can be a long haul. When I was a resident several years ago, no time limits while on call/post call patient time (clinic, rounding, floor duties). You left when the work was done. Longest stretch was 142 hours at U Mich Hospital, a notoriously very starch collared establishment that expects peak performance from residents at any level 24/7. Or else you are put on notice.

Stereotype vanquished.

Yes but are you hospital based or private practice? The only omfs guys I know (and I know several) who work that much are private and are doing it to make money. The others have quite a cushy life---if you're an anomaly, it doesn't mean the stereotype can't hold...

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Yeah I don't know about that. I will grant the points about lots of night call (and early starts to your days).

But it is an exceptionally rare day when I start the day with the same anesthesia team that I finish it with. Almost every day, the team we start with gets relieved at some point in the afternoon (relief starts at 3pm unless the resident is on call). Attendings get relieved too. Not to mention the numerous breaks and lunch hour and relief from CRNAs for an hour of protected teaching conf 3x/wk.

Maybe your hospital is structured differently, but it's a rare day for me as a resident to not have a full roster of cases. We tend to be in clinic or in the OR; the only time we are doing both is when it is so busy that we have to pull double duty and basically try to be in two places at once (in which case I would definitely argue it's not a "lighter" day than just being in the OR).

I don't mean in any way to start a flame war about anesthesia, as I have a great number of friends who do it and I respect their expertise. But the day to day for an anesthesia resident vs a surgery resident? No contest.

Lol thank you! I once went through four anesthesiologists in a single case on a weekend

 

[anbuitachi]

Lol thank you! I once went through four anesthesiologists in a single case on a weekend

I go thru a lot more than 4 surgeons on the weekend =) hahhaha. Though usually the only long ortho cases we do are like cervical to sacral fusions

 

[TypeADissection]

I never took it as an undergrad for classes or my MCAT but I can see why undergrads/med students take drugs. This is a high stakes game, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in the line.

Think about it how athletes do, at the end of this you could get a contract for hundreds of thousands of dollars (in their case millions). Do you blame them for taking steroids to maximize their chances of success?

Am I the only one who thinks of that adderall scene from Silicon Valley? I don't want to post a link to it because there's some choice language that's sensitive for some ears maybe.

 

[username456789]

Or DDS 🙂

Keyboard warriors who don't speak from experience.

I'm a dual degree'd Oral/Maxillofacial Surgeon, with an additional fellowship year (11 years of school post undergrad) who works 80+ a week right now. Between some Hospital based cases and office based practice/travel time/non clinical time, each week can be a long haul. When I was a resident several years ago, no time limits while on call/post call patient time (clinic, rounding, floor duties). You left when the work was done. Longest stretch was 142 hours at U Mich Hospital, a notoriously very starch collared establishment that expects peak performance from residents at any level 24/7. Or else you are put on notice.

Stereotype vanquished.[/QUOTE]

Werenyoi just itching to find a thread to post this self-congratulatory diatribe?

What you described does not at all represent the standard DDS career path or lifestyle. Your post was one of the worst cherry picking "exception-makes-the-rule" examples I've seen around here.

Stereotype reactivated.

 

[Localnative]

Keyboard warriors who don't speak from experience.

I'm a dual degree'd Oral/Maxillofacial Surgeon, with an additional fellowship year (11 years of school post undergrad) who works 80+ a week right now. Between some Hospital based cases and office based practice/travel time/non clinical time, each week can be a long haul. When I was a resident several years ago, no time limits while on call/post call patient time (clinic, rounding, floor duties). You left when the work was done. Longest stretch was 142 hours at U Mich Hospital, a notoriously very starch collared establishment that expects peak performance from residents at any level 24/7. Or else you are put on notice.

Stereotype vanquished.

Werenyoi just itching to find a thread to post this self-congratulatory diatribe?

What you described does not at all represent the standard DDS career path or lifestyle. Your post was one of the worst cherry picking "exception-makes-the-rule" examples I've seen around here.

Stereotype reactivated.[/QUOTE]
comes from my own experience and a large number of my colleagues
I sense some jealousy here. try not to speak in absolutes. makes you look very petty.
🙂

 

[username456789]

Werenyoi just itching to find a thread to post this self-congratulatory diatribe?

What you described does not at all represent the standard DDS career path or lifestyle. Your post was one of the worst cherry picking "exception-makes-the-rule" examples I've seen around here.

Stereotype reactivated.

comes from my own experience and a large number of my colleagues
I sense some jealousy here. try not to speak in absolutes. makes you look very petty.
🙂[/QUOTE]

Jealousy? I'm a dermatologist, we're the dentists of doctors.

And unless things have changed in dentistry, the majority of dentists don't go into OMFS. So once again, i'm not sure how your niche experience runs counter to the stereotype to which the other poster alluded.

 

[Localnative]

comes from my own experience and a large number of my colleagues
I sense some jealousy here. try not to speak in absolutes. makes you look very petty.
🙂

Jealousy? I'm a dermatologist, we're the dentists of doctors.

And unless things have changed in dentistry, the majority of dentists don't go into OMFS. So once again, i'm not sure how your niche experience runs counter to the stereotype to which the other poster alluded.[/QUOTE]
was referring to the population of OMS throughout my region of the country. not DDS as a whole.
i know some derms down here that work pretty long hours. wouldn't say they work general dentistry hours.
also read my original post again. you seem to be grasping at straws instead of comprehending the message conveyed.
also judging from the tone of this post, you should check the ego at the door dude. not everyone thinks derm is the golden goose.

 

[Blessthefall]

Multiquote. It's a feature of SDN. Use. It.

 

[jrlob91]

I’m in dental Assisting school right now and we are about to start our clinical rotations at specialty offices. Im scheduled to work at an oral and Maxillofacial office and wondered what things a surgeon looks for in a good assistant. Our teacher hasn’t taught us much about oral surgery, yet that is where my first clinical rotation is. I have been trying to study as much as I can, though it’s hard to find out what an oral surgeon would have a dental assistant student do during Clinicals. I want to be helpful to the office and hope to get an idea of what will impress them before I go in blind!

This has absolutely nothing to do with medical residency hours