MD Residency hours

[Dr. Gamer]

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[pacman2018]

How many hours a week do residents work? Is there really a 16 hour shift cap and an 80 hour/week cap?

80 hours a week is ridiculous...that is almost 14 hours a day with one day off a a week...



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No more 16 hour cap for interns although programs can set their own "caps". 80 hr/wk is technically the max... whether or not people violate that is another story. Yes, the hours are long but you only have a few years to learn how to fix/not kill someone before you're on your own.

 

[Dr. Gamer]

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[pacman2018]

Isn't that ridiculous? How many years do you have to work like that? That is not healthy at all...why not extend residency or just accept more medical students?

I am just worried about sleep deprivation over long periods of time...


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Well I guess most will be between 3-8 years depending on specialty/fellowship. Current residents would be better to explain their lives and how healthy it is. You'll still be able to sleep... It says you're a medical student, is this not something you considered prior to starting medical school?

 

[Dr. Gamer]

Well I guess most will be between 3-8 years depending on specialty/fellowship. Current residents would be better to explain their lives and how healthy it is. You'll still be able to sleep... It says you're a medical student, is this not something you considered prior to starting medical school?

I thought that the claims were exaggerated...I am going to be an ms1 in a month..still time to get out lol

These conditions are borderline inhumane...when they say 80 hours a week it is probably more like a 100 with everything else you have to do for a job

The pay is **** too...you are making way less then minimum wage

Do your hours go down after residency...I can't see my self working more than 40 hours a week for 30 years


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[JPSmyth]

I thought that the claims were exaggerated...I am going to be an ms1 in a month..still time to get out lol

These conditions are borderline inhumane...when they say 80 hours a week it is probably more like a 100 with everything else you have to do for a job

The pay is **** too...you are making way less then minimum wage

Do your hours go down after residency...I can't see my self working more than 40 hours a week for 30 years


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You never thought about this before applying? There are some "lighter" residencies which also happen to be the most competitive. Derm and radiation oncology work less than 60 hours per week usually but there is more outside reading apparently.

Yes your hours go down after residency

Think about it this way, in medicine you have the potential to make over 500k per year. Most other jobs that can have you making that much also have time when you have to work like a dog. Young investment bankers are said to work 100 hours per week, junior lawyers in a big firm can be working well over 80 hours per week helping the senior partners. Nothing worth having in this life comes easy. If you are second guessing medicine then I would get out now before school starts because it is a long haul

 

[Bobcat18]

Claim definitely not exaggerated. However, specialties do vary in how many hours you put in for residency - however, across the board the hours will be more than a normal 9-5 position. Welcome to medicine.

I thought that the claims were exaggerated...I am going to be an ms1 in a month..still time to get out lol

These conditions are borderline inhumane...when they say 80 hours a week it is probably more like a 100 with everything else you have to do for a job

The pay is **** too...you are making way less then minimum wage

Do your hours go down after residency...I can't see my self working more than 40 hours a week for 30 years


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[DrfluffyMD]

Hard to game with that schedule, but I still managed to play 2-3 hours of dota every night during residency while doing research and working. But then again my hour is around 45-50 a week.

 

[Mad Jack]

How many hours a week do residents work? Is there really a 16 hour shift cap and an 80 hour/week cap?

80 hours a week is ridiculous...that is almost 14 hours a day with one day off a a week...



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16 hour shift cap is going away soon, and only applied to intern year. Residents are capped at 30 hours, with no admissions for the last 6. Some specialties have different hours (EM, 60, but you do a lot more night shifts and weekends, or neurosurg where you have no hour limits), but most stick to the 80 limit.

 

[Mad Jack]

Isn't that ridiculous? How many years do you have to work like that? That is not healthy at all...why not extend residency or just accept more medical students?

I am just worried about sleep deprivation over long periods of time...


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As a physician, you need to be able to function with little sleep and high stress. Residency helps prepare you for that. The purpose of the long hours is to maximize your continuity with patients so that you see entire disease processes from beginning to end. When polled, residents have repeatedly stated a preference for shorter, higher hour training versus longer, lower-hour training because entering practice sooner allows for one to earn an attending salary sooner. As to sleep deprivation, you can function in 6 hours a night when you're a bit older. You're likely a teenager or close to it, so you require far more sleep than an adult that is nearing 30.

 

[Mad Jack]

however, across the board the hours will be more than a normal 9-5 position. Welcome to medicine.

This is incorrect. EM, path, psych, PM&R, A&I, dermatology, rheumatology, sleep medicine, and a few other fields allow for low hours with very minimal call.

 

[ACSurgeon]

16 hour shift cap is going away soon, and only applied to intern year. Residents are capped at 30 hours, with no admissions for the last 6. Some specialties have different hours (EM, 60, but you do a lot more night shifts and weekends, or neurosurg where you have no hour limits), but most stick to the 80 limit.

The 16 hour intern limit is going away in July.

Residents are capped at 28 hour shifts

Neurosurgery caps at 88 hours/week

 

[Smurfette]

80 hours per week is also an average. You don't turn into a pumpkin at 81 hours and go home. So figure 320 hours per month. If you hit 90 or 100 hours one week, the other weeks need to be less so your average is under 80.

You also get an average of one day off a week...so you may work every day for 2 weeks in a row if you're on call over a weekend, and then get another weekend completely off ("golden weekend") to make up for it.

 

[JPSmyth]

Hard to game with that schedule, but I still managed to play 2-3 hours of dota every night during residency while doing research and working. But then again my hour is around 45-50 a week.

What field are you in dr Fluffy? I feel like i have seen your posts in other threads but I can't recall

 

[bashwell]

What field are you in dr Fluffy? I feel like i have seen your posts in other threads but I can't recall

I believe fluffy is a rads (DR) resident, but eventually hoping to match in IR.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I believe fluffy is a rads (DR) resident, but eventually hoping to match in IR.

I am a diagnostic radiology resident, already matched into IR.

 

[The white coat trainer]

Im doing anOBGYN residency and depending on the block, it can be anywhere from 70-90 hours a week. But if you plan your life accordingly, you can make it work. I still get 7 hours of sleep every single night (even post 24 hour calls) and I go to the gym 4-5 days a week.

But yes, you have to become very efficient at operating in high stress situations with high levels of fatigue.

 

[Mad Jack]

The 16 hour intern limit is going away in July.

Residents are capped at 28 hour shifts

Neurosurgery caps at 88 hours/week

Thanks for the corrections and clarification. 24+4 sounds infinitely more humane than 24+6, though I can't put my finger on why lol. I'm thrilled to be going in after the hour changes, the short shifts really made for grisly intern schedules compared to what many second years ended up with.

 

[bannie22]

The 16 hour intern limit is going away in July.

Residents are capped at 28 hour shifts

Neurosurgery caps at 88 hours/week

Thats incorrect. Very few Neurosurgery residencies with special dispension are at 88. Most are at 80.

 

[njtrimed]

I thought that the claims were exaggerated...I am going to be an ms1 in a month..still time to get out lol

These conditions are borderline inhumane...when they say 80 hours a week it is probably more like a 100 with everything else you have to do for a job

The pay is **** too...you are making way less then minimum wage

Do your hours go down after residency...I can't see my self working more than 40 hours a week for 30 years


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Borderline inhumane? Plenty of people work two full-time jobs for decades, just to make ends meet. I can deal with 80 hours/week for a few years during training, knowing how it's going to benefit me and my family in the long run.

And some would argue that 80 hours isn't enough. Years ago, I remember surgical residents sneaking back into the OR when they had exceeded their cap because they didn't want to miss out on certain cases. And so many physicians have told me how scary it is to transition to being an attending; you'll be expected to have learned everything you need to know to be competent. The thought of that responsibility will probably be enough to fuel you through some difficult shifts when you're exhausted!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

How many hours a week do residents work? Is there really a 16 hour shift cap and an 80 hour/week cap?

80 hours a week is ridiculous...that is almost 14 hours a day with one day off a a week...



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Another one that wants the title doctor without earning it through work. Go get a DNP if you just want to be lazy and be called a doctor

 

[Kurk]

Borderline inhumane? Plenty of people work two full-time jobs for decades, just to make ends meet. I can deal with 80 hours/week for a few years during training, knowing how it's going to benefit me and my family in the long run.

And some would argue that 80 hours isn't enough. Years ago, I remember surgical residents sneaking back into the OR when they had exceeded their cap because they didn't want to miss out on certain cases. And so many physicians have told me how scary it is to transition to being an attending; you'll be expected to have learned everything you need to know to be competent. The thought of that responsibility will probably be enough to fuel you through some difficult shifts when you're exhausted!

It's inhumane to the patients. I wouldn't let a sleep-deprived resident get anywhere near me if it was my health on the line. Expecting residents to go 30 hours without sleep and not make mistakes is right up there next to expecting divine intervention. Truckers are limited in their work hours; Pilots are too in addition to a mandatory retirement age of 65. You seriously can't compare working two retail jobs to something as high-risk as medicine.

Another one that wants the title doctor without earning it through work. Go get a DNP if you just want to be lazy and be called a doctor

Or DDS

 

[njtrimed]

It's inhumane to the patients. I wouldn't let a sleep-deprived resident get anywhere near me if it was my health on the line. Expecting residents to go 30 hours without sleep and not make mistakes is right up there next to expecting divine intervention. Truckers are limited in their work hours; Pilots are too in addition to a mandatory retirement age of 65. You seriously can't compare working two retail jobs to something as high-risk as medicine.

Or DDS

Did I say anything about retail? Plenty of people in the medical field work double shifts regularly, or have two jobs. That's just reality.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Or DDS

Best decision I ever made!

Big Hoss

 

[akinetopsia]

Bear in mind it's 80 hours a week averaged over 4 weeks per ACGME rules. So some weeks in all fairness may be over 80 and some may be under.

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

Another one that wants the title doctor without earning it through work. Go get a DNP if you just want to be lazy and be called a doctor

Classic Burnett's Law.

 

[Chillbo Baggins]

It's inhumane to the patients. I wouldn't let a sleep-deprived resident get anywhere near me if it was my health on the line. Expecting residents to go 30 hours without sleep and not make mistakes is right up there next to expecting divine intervention. Truckers are limited in their work hours; Pilots are too in addition to a mandatory retirement age of 65. You seriously can't compare working two retail jobs to something as high-risk as medicine.

This has been beaten to death in other threads. People are treated everyday in hospitals with the current system. Studies show modifying the shifts doesn't improve patient care. Full stop.

 

[Kurk]

This has been beaten to death in other threads. People are treated everyday in hospitals with the current system. Studies show modifying the shifts doesn't improve patient care. Full stop.

Dang, then I should jump into medical malpractice law; that's where the money is.

Best decision I ever made!

Big Hoss

Dentistry seems like the best rational choice for myself although I still have premed pangs every now and then.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

"Inhumane" lol...
If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nothing in life that's worth having comes easy. Investment bankers, early on, work 120 hour weeks. I know some of them.
You can survive on 4-5 hours a night of sleep. Make it up on your days off. 80 hrs is averaged over 4 weeks. Fortunately these hours are usually for surgical subspecialties... And we don't have admission caps either

 

[Mad Jack]

It's inhumane to the patients. I wouldn't let a sleep-deprived resident get anywhere near me if it was my health on the line. Expecting residents to go 30 hours without sleep and not make mistakes is right up there next to expecting divine intervention. Truckers are limited in their work hours; Pilots are too in addition to a mandatory retirement age of 65. You seriously can't compare working two retail jobs to something as high-risk as medicine.

Or DDS

The research show patients suffer no adverse harm from longer shifts, actually. The reason for this is that attending physicians oversee their work and can compensate for their errors.

 

[Kurk]

Are there any cases of doctors dying of cardiac arrest from pulling so many all-nighters? In Japan it is known as Karoshi where people literally drop dead from over-work—and they're relatively young.

Taken from Wikipedia:

In an International Labour Organization article about karōshi,[4] the following four typical cases of karōshi were mentioned:

1. Mr. A worked at a major snack food processing company for as long as 110 hours a week (not a month) and died from a heart attack at the age of 34. His death was recognized as work-related by the Labour Standards Office.
2. Mr. B, a bus driver, whose death was also recognized as work-related, worked 3,000 hours a year. He did not have a day off in the 15 years before he had a stroke at the age of 37.
3. Mr. C worked in a large printing company in Tokyo for 4,320 hours a year including night work and died from a stroke at the age of 58. His widow received workers’ compensation 14 years after her husband's death.
4. Ms. D, a 22-year-old nurse, died from a heart attack after 34 hours of continuous duty five times a month.

 

[Kurk]

The research show patients suffer no adverse harm from longer shifts, actually. The reason for this is that attending physicians oversee their work and can compensate for their errors.

Would you be okay flying if one of the pilots was as sleep deprived as a resident?

 

[Mad Jack]

Would you be okay flying if one of the pilots was as sleep deprived as a resident?

If they were the copilot and the actual pilot (the attending) were well rested, sure. And if they had all the extra sets of eyes on the controls that we do (nurses, PAs, NPs, RTs, etc). The pilot analogy fails to work because in health care, there are several levels of human judgment that must fail before harm comes to a patient, whereas in most aircraft, there are only two sets of eyes at any given time.

 

[grapefruit17]

I mean it all depends on the residency and field but mainly the residency itself. I'm in psych. Some, very few hit 40 hours a week. But I know others that hit 80 hours a week. Mine is probably in the middle of that.

Have realistic goals before you go in. If you don't want long hours you at least can eliminate a lot of fields..

But honestly even with a field like psych working more equals more pay so it depends on what you want to make after residency

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Are there any cases of doctors dying of cardiac arrest from pulling so many all-nighters? In Japan it is known as Karoshi where people literally drop dead from over-work—and they're relatively young.

Taken from Wikipedia:

In an International Labour Organization article about karōshi,[4] the following four typical cases of karōshi were mentioned:

1. Mr. A worked at a major snack food processing company for as long as 110 hours a week (not a month) and died from a heart attack at the age of 34. His death was recognized as work-related by the Labour Standards Office.
2. Mr. B, a bus driver, whose death was also recognized as work-related, worked 3,000 hours a year. He did not have a day off in the 15 years before he had a stroke at the age of 37.
3. Mr. C worked in a large printing company in Tokyo for 4,320 hours a year including night work and died from a stroke at the age of 58. His widow received workers’ compensation 14 years after her husband's death.
4. Ms. D, a 22-year-old nurse, died from a heart attack after 34 hours of continuous duty five times a month.

This is silly. You have 4 cases where something bad happened, and no proof that the bad event was related to "overwork". 34 year olds have MI's all the time -- if you work in a cath lab. Just because some government office decides that something is "work related", doesn't make it so. I'm not a fan of ridiculously long hours, but this is not a good argument.

Would you be okay flying if one of the pilots was as sleep deprived as a resident?

Having worked much longer shifts/hours as a resident, here's what I can tell you: Even with a 30 hour shift, you will not be falling asleep when a patient is crashing. You will be wide awake, fully alert, and not impaired. The problem happens when you're doing something boring, rote, and unexciting. I've fallen asleep when writing admission orders. I've fallen asleep when retracting in the OR.

So, flying a plane when very sleep deprived is a very bad idea. You're very likely to fall asleep. Managing an ICU patient when you're sleep deprived will not be a big issue, although it isn't lots of fun.

In some fields/programs, even though you're on call overnight, you might get some good sleep. Not every night is busy all the way through.

Not all programs are the same. I don't believe in 30 hour shifts. Although the data shows no change in outcomes, I think the data about post call car crashes is good enough that I don't want to be part of it. My program has very little 24 hour call, and hopefully soon will have none. But residents still work night shifts, and whether q4 call is better or worse than 5 nights of nightfloat (night shifts) is a debatable question.

 

[Kurk]

This is silly. You have 4 cases where something bad happened, and no proof that the bad event was related to "overwork". 34 year olds have MI's all the time -- if you work in a cath lab. Just because some government office decides that something is "work related", doesn't make it so. I'm not a fan of ridiculously long hours, but this is not a good argument.



Having worked much longer shifts/hours as a resident, here's what I can tell you: Even with a 30 hour shift, you will not be falling asleep when a patient is crashing. You will be wide awake, fully alert, and not impaired. The problem happens when you're doing something boring, rote, and unexciting. I've fallen asleep when writing admission orders. I've fallen asleep when retracting in the OR.

So, flying a plane when very sleep deprived is a very bad idea. You're very likely to fall asleep. Managing an ICU patient when you're sleep deprived will not be a big issue, although it isn't lots of fun.

In some fields/programs, even though you're on call overnight, you might get some good sleep. Not every night is busy all the way through.

Not all programs are the same. I don't believe in 30 hour shifts. Although the data shows no change in outcomes, I think the data about post call car crashes is good enough that I don't want to be part of it. My program has very little 24 hour call, and hopefully soon will have none. But residents still work night shifts, and whether q4 call is better or worse than 5 nights of nightfloat (night shifts) is a debatable question.

Alright you win. I just don't know how anyone can function like that effectively. Adrenaline is one thing but your reaction time decreases, it becomes difficulty to think, etc. Are students loaded up on Adderall and Cocaine like young investment bankers?

 

[Kkshake]

The

Alright you win. I just don't know how anyone can function like that effectively. Adrenaline is one thing but your reaction time decreases, it becomes difficulty to think, etc. Are students loaded up on Adderall and Cocaine like young investment bankers?

There's no shortage of Adderall amongst pre-meds, I fail to see why it would be any different for med students and residents

 

[Kurk]

The

There's no shortage of Adderall amongst pre-meds, I fail to see why it would be any different for med students and residents

Are you joking or serious?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

The

There's no shortage of Adderall amongst pre-meds, I fail to see why it would be any different for med students and residents

I don't even need coffee for procedural situations. Your own adrenline take care of it.

 

[CharlieBillings]

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[deleted407021]

The

There's no shortage of Adderall amongst pre-meds, I fail to see why it would be any different for med students and residents

Same for med students, from my experience.

I don't personally ever get close to any of that stuff. IMHO, if someone's using it w/o a legitimate medical reason, they're taking shortcuts that aren't really there and GL to them when they get out in the real world.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Classic Burnett's Law.

except i'm not saying you can't make it as a doctor or i feel sorry for their future patients. I'm just saying you can't be a doctor and a lazy person. If you want to be lazy and just have a title, go DNP

 

[Kkshake]

Are you joking or serious?

Initially joking, but I think there is

Unless you have a prescription wouldn't that show up on drug screens? It must be very few people who are either in a very bad place personally, or some very bad decision making to start doing that.

Getting a script for it is ridiculously easy. I don't personally use it, but my sister gets a script whenever she feels like losing weight. I think it's a lot more common than you may think.

 

[vernhart]

Are there any cases of doctors dying of cardiac arrest from pulling so many all-nighters? In Japan it is known as Karoshi where people literally drop dead from over-work—and they're relatively young.

Taken from Wikipedia:

In an International Labour Organization article about karōshi,[4] the following four typical cases of karōshi were mentioned:

1. Mr. A worked at a major snack food processing company for as long as 110 hours a week (not a month) and died from a heart attack at the age of 34. His death was recognized as work-related by the Labour Standards Office.
2. Mr. B, a bus driver, whose death was also recognized as work-related, worked 3,000 hours a year. He did not have a day off in the 15 years before he had a stroke at the age of 37.
3. Mr. C worked in a large printing company in Tokyo for 4,320 hours a year including night work and died from a stroke at the age of 58. His widow received workers’ compensation 14 years after her husband's death.
4. Ms. D, a 22-year-old nurse, died from a heart attack after 34 hours of continuous duty five times a month.

3000/52=57.69 hours per week (if he didn't have a day off that would mean no vacation weeks); I'm assuming it was the sitting for so long leading to DVT? Doesn't sound like death by "over-working" so much as "over-sitting" lol

 

[sliceofbread136]

Oh cmon, 80 per week is really not that bad.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

Oh cmon, 80 per week is really not that bad.

It's bad, but it isn't as bad as I thought it would be. It's doable, but you have to be ready to make sacrifices in other areas of life or learn to be more efficient.

 

[Gilakend]

Initially joking, but I think there is

Getting a script for it is ridiculously easy. I don't personally use it, but my sister gets a script whenever she feels like losing weight. I think it's a lot more common than you may think.

Adderall is insanely common on my campus. Especially among pre-meds. I personally don't use it because I feel like if you do, you can never study without it again (esp. for finals). I would not only be un-surprised, but expect it to be common in med school. However, much more low key.

 

[JPSmyth]

Adderall is insanely common on my campus. Especially among pre-meds. I personally don't use it because I feel like if you do, you can never study without it again (esp. for finals). I would not only be un-surprised, but expect it to be common in med school. However, much more low key.

I never took it as an undergrad for classes or my MCAT but I can see why undergrads/med students take drugs. This is a high stakes game, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in the line.

Think about it how athletes do, at the end of this you could get a contract for hundreds of thousands of dollars (in their case millions). Do you blame them for taking steroids to maximize their chances of success?

 

[Dr. Gamer]

Are there no laws that govern residency?


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[mcloaf]

Are there no laws that govern residency?


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