Residency locations where a car is not needed

[PhinyGage]

I live in a "car requiring" city and own a scooter instead. And I've been just fine going between the many sites of my training program. My risks for trauma are up some but my MPG is 100, my carbon footprint is low, and my monthly transportation bill?....

I'll do fellowship in a city where I will never have to own a car again (if I dont want to). Americans definitely need to find ways to get rid of their cars. Highways packed full of 1-man cars is a very depressing transportation outcome.

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[vistaril]

I'll do fellowship in a city where I will never have to own a car again (if I dont want to). Americans definitely need to find ways to get rid of their cars. .

ummmm no. *you* may desire to not drive a car for transportation. But americans not named you certainly don't need to do anything.

 

[pathololology]

The University of Utah surprisingly you can do without a car. They just put in a huge above ground transportation system and the buses have good routes too. I ride my bike a lot or take TRAX. You can easily have a car in SLC, but surprisingly you can get by without them. Call would be tough, but you could live close to the U.

 

[PhinyGage]

ummmm no. *you* may desire to not drive a car for transportation. But americans not named you certainly don't need to do anything.

Thanks for telling the rest of Americans what "they need not do". Just as controlling and opinionated.

I'll go tell my opinions to the millions of Americans who suffer from traffic induced hypertension and persistent love handle syndrome. Even more those who are experiencing weather conditions that are most likely related to what we're doing to the environment. Youre right, you and the other Americans "need not do anything". That's fine.

But for those who do want a healthier life and healthier surroundings, the obvious have not changed: Find a way to drive less, find a way to eat less, throw away most boxed/canned food, laugh a little more, find a way to stress less.

Your public health professional, signing off by sharing with my country ways that ive learned to help myself and others.

 

[twright]

SF VA shuttle schedule below. Not 6a/6p unless they have changed the service recently without updating the web site. Otherwise a heck of a lot more UCSF residents would be taking the shuttle instead of driving and clogging up residential parking in the Outer Richmond.

http://www.sanfrancisco.va.gov/patients/sfvamcshuttle.asp

I think I misread the OP posting in that I was focusing on what is feasible for public transport at these residences. Yes it is possible to take the T then commuter rail to Belmont. It's possible to take a bus to HMC and then a shuttle to Seattle Children's. But that stuff is pretty painful when you are post call or if you are rushing from Children's to take call at the VA. I didn't know any UW residents without a car except one who kayaked to UW and biked everywhere else except for the VA when she drove; and she drove whenever she was on rotation at one site and was on call elsewhere. Same at UCSF except the one biker lasted 2 weeks on the hills.

 

[notdeadyet]

SF VA shuttle schedule below. Not 6a/6p unless they have changed the service recently without updating the web site. Otherwise a heck of a lot more UCSF residents would be taking the shuttle instead of driving and clogging up residential parking in the Outer Richmond.

http://www.sanfrancisco.va.gov/patients/sfvamcshuttle.asp

Ah, I see. You are getting your intell on this subject from looking at the shuttle service that transports veterans around the Bay Area and state. If you look over the places listed, you'll see that this shuttle system doesn't even go to the main campus.

Google "UCSF shuttle" and all will be revealed.

Many to most residents park in the free lot north of the VA rather than the Richmond. And again, they do take the shuttle. Most residents with cars drive out there because its faster and parkings a cinch. But the point of the thread is whether a car is necessary for residency training programs. At UCSF, it's not.

Same at UCSF except the one biker lasted 2 weeks on the hills.

Must be a tiny n. Lots of UCSF residents do have cars, but then again, most UCSF residents came from outside the Bay Area. The many who don't own cars get along just fine. No one I know who moved to San Francisco without one was ever compelled to buy one because of the challenge of getting around the city, for residency or otherwise. Lots of people in Honolulu own parkas, but you don't need one to live there.

And lots of residents rely on biking. The 2 week biker sounds like myth. If he was complaining about the hills between residency training sites, the dude was waaaaaay lost. He should have turned around when he sighted Alcatraz....

 

[NYCMS2]

I think I misread the OP posting in that I was focusing on what is feasible for public transport at these residences.

To clarify: what I hoped for and have gotten in some responses is a short list of locations where a car is not essential - this could be accomplished by living near the main facilities, walking/biking, using shuttles between sites, or using public transport. Even if going carless is only feasible for the first year, that is good information for me (e.g., on their website Wash U says it is possible to get by without a car in the first year). I don't own a car and would like to put off buying one as far into the future as possible, but I realize having a car is inevitable unless I stay in NYC, and I have no desire to stay.

Also looking for locations where the amount of intra-day driving is minimized (site to site), especially in places with bad traffic and bad parking situations. This favors residencies in smaller towns and less congested areas, not the kind of big city / coastal program locations favored on this forum. For instance, there are many locations in the South that meet my needs, but most people here want nothing to do with that region and it is hard to find first hand accounts here.

I appreciate all of the responses. I have a nice list to consider, from some of the replies here, and from some that I have figured out on my own.

Keep 'em coming.

 

[vistaril]

Thanks for telling the rest of Americans what "they need not do". Just as controlling and opinionated.

I'll go tell my opinions to the millions of Americans who suffer from traffic induced hypertension and persistent love handle syndrome. Even more those who are experiencing weather conditions that are most likely related to what we're doing to the environment. Youre right, you and the other Americans "need not do anything". That's fine.

But for those who do want a healthier life and healthier surroundings, the obvious have not changed: Find a way to drive less, find a way to eat less, throw away most boxed/canned food, laugh a little more, find a way to stress less.

Your public health professional, signing off by sharing with my country ways that ive learned to help myself and others.

how in the world do you figure telling someone what they need to do isn't more controlling than not doing so? That's the most bizarre and illogical statement I've read this month....

 

[notdeadyet]

I appreciate all of the responses. I have a nice list to consider, from some of the replies here, and from some that I have figured out on my own.

Keep 'em coming.

Agreed. I'd like to read more. I think a lot of potential applicants without cars would like to choose a place where they don't have to include a car in their moving expenses. CHA, Yale, Upenn, UCSF, any others?

how in the world do you figure telling someone what they need to do isn't more controlling than not doing so? That's the most bizarre and illogical statement I've read this month....

You all agree to disagree, check. Just leave it alone. There's room on SDN for a few threads to be informational, rather than a debate about good and evil, manhood, or the American way....

 

[PhinyGage]

LOL...Wow, sounds like someone has a bad diaper rash.



To the OP: I would say your options are very clear and go a little something like this.

NYC>SF>Boston>DC>Chicago>Philly

I dont know anything about Seattle as I've never been.

Feel free to correct the algorithm above on a public forum where people share their own opinions and are able to put together their own logic.

 

[twright]

Ah, I see. You are getting your intell on this subject from looking at the shuttle service that transports veterans around the Bay Area and state. If you look over the places listed, you'll see that this shuttle system doesn't even go to the main campus.

Google "UCSF shuttle" and all will be revealed.

Many to most residents park in the free lot north of the VA rather than the Richmond. And again, they do take the shuttle. Most residents with cars drive out there because its faster and parkings a cinch. But the point of the thread is whether a car is necessary for residency training programs. At UCSF, it's not.

Must be a tiny n. Lots of UCSF residents do have cars, but then again, most UCSF residents came from outside the Bay Area. The many who don't own cars get along just fine. No one I know who moved to San Francisco without one was ever compelled to buy one because of the challenge of getting around the city, for residency or otherwise. Lots of people in Honolulu own parkas, but you don't need one to live there.

And lots of residents rely on biking. The 2 week biker sounds like myth. If he was complaining about the hills between residency training sites, the dude was waaaaaay lost. He should have turned around when he sighted Alcatraz....

Whoops. Looks like they have expanded their hours:
http://campuslifeservices.ucsf.edu/upload/transportation/files/Shuttles_Schedule_VA_2013_0425.pdf
At least as of several years ago, the VA shuttle ran between Parnassus and SFVAMC on a very limited schedule with the last one departing at 430 meaning it was pretty much unusable for residents. Thanks for pointing this out.

Shuttle schedules aside, I still don't think the UCSF psych residency is doable without a car. I lived in SF myself for several years, and I know 7 generations of UCSF psych residents. There are too many gaps with trying to rely on public transport that the headaches are not worth it.
e.g.
- You can't take the shuttle when you are on SFVAMC call on weekends.
- If your HIV psych clinic is at SFGH in the mornings 9:30-12:00 and your mood disorders clinic is at Parnassus in the afternoons 1:00-4:00, you have 1 or 2 shuttles you can make before you are late. Car gives you more flexibility.
- It's even worse if you are at Parnassus and need to get over to SFVAMC for evening call, since the shuttle runs every half hour.
- It's a lot harder to get to any providers in the community if you want specialty supervision, e.g., there are associated clinical faculty who live in Sausalito, Oakland, etc.

And that is assuming you live in Inner Sunset near Parnassus. If you want to live downtown, or in a part of the Mission not too close to SFGH, then you have to think about an extra leg (e.g., MUNI to Parnassus to SFVAMC).

There may be creative solutions, for example, if you are at UW you could just rent a car when you are doing your peds neuro rotation at Children's (rather than take a bus to UW then take a shuttle to Children's). Or you could do zipcar just for call days (assuming that a car is always going to be available -- and deciding in advance that you will just front for a cab if not, so as not to be late). The amount of call at SFVAMC tails off as you advance during residency, so those occasions will be fewer and fewer with time.

Again, I'm not saying the residency is impossible without a car (or the others, e.g., UW, MGH). I'm just saying it's not that doable. Maybe with a little bit of NYC blood the OP has thicker skin about these little inconveniences.

 

[wolfvgang22]

You probably already know this, but cross the southwest (Texas, New Mexico, Arizona) off your list if you don't want to drive.
Also, I'll just leave this here:

I'm in love with my car.

Only girls ride scooters. Seriously.

 

[PhinyGage]

Only girls ride scooters. Seriously.

Haha, I guess that makes me one of the most hairy chinned ladies to ever cruise the road. I love my scooter and use it daily to commute. 100 MPG. I chuckle as I drive through backed up roads of one-man vehicles that could fit 5. I'm with the OP. If I never have to own a car again I wont. I guess I should probably head back north for fellowship.

Preferences, Preferences....Efficiency vs. Comfort

 

[notdeadyet]

Shuttle schedules aside, I still don't think the UCSF psych residency is doable without a car. .... There are too many gaps with trying to rely on public transport that the headaches are not worth it....
Again, I'm not saying the residency is impossible without a car (or the others, e.g., UW, MGH). I'm just saying it's not that doable.

Yah, I think this is the crux of where we are disagreeing.

UCSF is do-able by car. This is evidenced by the fact that many residents at UCSF do not own cars and get along just fine. 'Nuff said.

Some residencies are flat out impossible to do without a car. But UCSF is not one of them. UCSF has three required training sites all within city limits of a very small city. All three training sites have shuttle service and all three have major public transportation lines running late and early hours as well. A car is a great thing to have, but it's not necessary.

Now, whether UCSF is do-able for any individual is really that individual's call. It sounds like it wouldn't be do-able for you, but many do it happily, so saying it do-able is giving out bad info. You don't need a car at UCSF unless you're the type that just needs a car. Some examples:

- You can't take the shuttle when you are on SFVAMC call on weekends.

True. A car is very handy in general for the VA. When residents take call there otherwise, they take the bus. The VA is on the most frequent running bus in the city that runs at all hours to get you to and from call. Fun? God no. Do-able? Check. A pain in the *****, but nothing you'd buy a car over.

- If your HIV psych clinic is at SFGH in the mornings 9:30-12:00 and your mood disorders clinic is at Parnassus in the afternoons 1:00-4:00, you have 1 or 2 shuttles you can make before you are late. Car gives you more flexibility.

Yes and no. Folks who have split schedules take shuttles between sites all the time or public transportation. It sucks to have to devote half your lunch hour to transit. But many with cars still take the shuttle. At SFGH, unless you're willing to cough up exorbitant parking rates, you have to walk 10+ minutes to your car (parked in a not nice neighborhood, fingers-crossed). At Parnassus, parking is next to non-existent, so you'll be circling for a long time hoping to park, or driving to a spot you know there's parking but is a 15 minute walk away. The shuttle is faster and more reliable. At VA, parking is smooth sailing. See above.

- It's even worse if you are at Parnassus and need to get over to SFVAMC for evening call, since the shuttle runs every half hour.

Folks leave their duties early to go to call, whether it's driving or public transport. Non-issue.

- It's a lot harder to get to any providers in the community if you want specialty supervision, e.g., there are associated clinical faculty who live in Sausalito, Oakland, etc.

I haven't heard of folks meeting faculty at their homes outside of social events. It's definitely neither a requirement nor something many (any?) do. You could create this in your fourth year, but few get clinical supervision outside the city. If you wanted to set up a rotation in Sausalito (where do I sign?), you would need a car. But few do.

And that is assuming you live in Inner Sunset near Parnassus. If you want to live downtown, or in a part of the Mission not too close to SFGH, then you have to think about an extra leg (e.g., MUNI to Parnassus to SFVAMC).

Most folks do live in the Sunset or the Mission. Those who don't tend to choose a location that is public transportation-accessible. Because folks tend not to park at Parnassus regularly if it can be avoided. You can't chance not finding a spot (a common occurrence), which happens more often than the N not showing.

Anyone who doesn't quiver at the thought of waiting at a bus stop in the morning or adjusting their schedule to make a shuttle during the day or pedaling a bicycle do just fine at UCSF. Car owners are probably the majority amongst residents at UCSF, but plenty of those are weekend drivers to get OUT of the City. You don't need one for residency at UCSF.

 

[billypilgrim37]

This thread is total fail. All this talk about powerful cars and no discussion of male inadequacy? I drive a Honda Civic, is all I'm saying.

 

[notdeadyet]

This thread is total fail. All this talk about powerful cars and no discussion of male inadequacy? I drive a Honda Civic, is all I'm saying.

A poster already used the term "firepower" to describe cars.

Sometimes we let the real low hanging fruit just drop (flacidly) from the tree.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

This thread is total fail. All this talk about powerful cars and no discussion of male inadequacy? I drive a Honda Civic, is all I'm saying.

It's not the size of the car, it's the skill of the driver.

 

[vistaril]

Agreed. I'd like to read more. I think a lot of potential applicants without cars would like to choose a place where they don't have to include a car in their moving expenses. CHA, Yale, Upenn, UCSF, any others?
You all agree to disagree, check. Just leave it alone. There's room on SDN for a few threads to be informational, rather than a debate about good and evil, manhood, or the American way....

no, a disagreement centers around whether brady > manning. Another poster telling other groups they should/need to do something is very different. It's even more bizarre when after they are called out on it they claim that being told it's ok not to do something is just as controlling as being told to do something...

bottom line: people should do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with others. That's true for the cars people drive...amongst other things

 

[whopper]

Word of warning if you don't own a car in residency.

Sometimes you will kick someone out of the PES who was malingering, and guess where that guy will go after he leaves the PES? The local streets and use the public transportation.

Remember this if you don't have a car and plan on using public transportation after your PES shift. I lived 1/2 a mile away from the hospital in residency and sometimes rode my bike to work and back home. After seeing the umpteenth patient that I just kicked out that threatened to kill himself and that guy had antisocial PD, a history of violence and he could've assaulted me, I just figured I'd use a car from then on.

 

[Armadillos]

Also something to consider if your ok with using a car some but just want to minimize time spent commuting is that programs in smaller cities may not have many training locations and you could just live close to your hospital. The city my med school is in has essentially zero public transport (I've never even tried to use it) but i probably average less than two hours in the car per week by living in a good location

 

[twright]

Word of warning if you don't own a car in residency.

Sometimes you will kick someone out of the PES who was malingering, and guess where that guy will go after he leaves the PES? The local streets and use the public transportation.

Remember this if you don't have a car and plan on using public transportation after your PES shift. I lived 1/2 a mile away from the hospital in residency and sometimes rode my bike to work and back home. After seeing the umpteenth patient that I just kicked out that threatened to kill himself and that guy had antisocial PD, a history of violence and he could've assaulted me, I just figured I'd use a car from then on.

Ain't that the truth

 

[Beargryllz]

nonsense....horses, just like walking or riding a bicycle, have a lack of firepower....

buy a real car and arrive that way. ..

*****

Get a ****ing plane if you wanna be hardcore

 

[notdeadyet]

Sometimes you will kick someone out of the PES who was malingering, and guess where that guy will go after he leaves the PES? The local streets and use the public transportation.

Definitely. More than once, I've run into patients on the bus. They usually don't remember me, but three times I've been tapped on the shoulder by patients who immediately start asking about refills and whatnot. I didn't really recognize one but she had the 5150 with my name on her, so score one for her.

 

[vistaril]

This thread is total fail. All this talk about powerful cars and no discussion of male inadequacy? I drive a Honda Civic, is all I'm saying.

it has nothing to do with inadequacy. Even if one chooses to look at a car as an appliance, it is still easily the most important appliance one will use on a daily basis. Even if you have a short commute and live close to work(or if you have kids close to your kids schools and activities), you're still spending a decent amount of time in your car. And then there are trips, vacations, etc. I'm guessing most of us in here don't use/buy complete crap for are other major appliance purchases that we use and depend on far less than our cars.

That said, i think in the mid 90s a civic was a good choice if one cared absolutely nothing about cars and just viewed them as an appliance. Because then even cheaper cars were actually unreliable to some degree. But now newerish cars have gotten to the point that they are all super reliable(unless driven like a maniac or the oil not changed ever). So if one truly doesn't care about their car and just wants to drive a cheap rinky dink car, why not save 5-6k and go with a slightly used chevy aveo(or some equivalent POS) for example? In terms of performance, comfort, handling, safety, etc...it's going to be just as crappy as a civic, and you can get them much cheaper. A new civic is going to run 18-19k or so for a base model. A slightly used one(2 years old, 30k miles) you're going to be looking at 14k for a base model. Can get a new versa or aveo for 13-14, and a slightly used one for 9.

If I was going to buy a cheap compact(or subcompact) car, I'd probably get a mazda3. It's a little cheaper than the civic(within a thousand dollars though), gets slightly worse gas mileage, but is a better car. Handles much better, looks a little sharper, and has a little more pep.

I'm not a civic basher(they are ok for what they are), but they're overpriced by a few thousand dollars and just relying on brand/name at this point. 15 years ago they were worth it, but that was 10-15 years ago.

For people who care about cars and driving now though, there are a lot of good buys. Both american and european. The new corvette remains the best bang for the buck out there if one can get over the interior(but that has been upgraded). Audi has 2 or 3 different excellent coupes. Infinity G37 coupe is a blend of performance, stylying, and practicality. Porsche makes an entry level car(cayman) that is affordable yet still looks like(and more importantly drives like) a porsche. The bmw m3 is still(and might always be) the standard for the sporty practical performance sports coupe(if one can stomach the price). There is just a lot of different stuff out there that is fun to drive, looks good, has excellent performance, and is affordable.

 

[vistaril]

A poster already used the term "firepower" to describe cars.

Sometimes we let the real low hanging fruit just drop (flacidly) from the tree.

there is nothing wrong with driving an econobox I guess, but just because someone appreciates something nicer definately doesn't speak towards anything other than they don't like crappy cars.

 

[whopper]

Another thing about not having car is your job will likely make you do things that'll require you have a car. Maybe not daily, but on the order of every few months. It's a supreme pain in the butt to not have one unless you're in a residency like in NYC.

But then you run into the problem I mentioned above. I did some medschool in Newark and despite that my apartment was less than a mile away, walking home would've been like me like flipping a coin to see if I lived or died each day without a car.

 

[Slikateer]

for boston just check the T routes. If nothing goes directly to the hospital, then you may be stuck taking a bus.

You can definitely get by without a car in Boston and it really sucks driving there...but you should live in a place that gives you good access to BUMC , MGH, etc.

Also note that it would be the city limits of Boston. My brother lives up there, but researched very carefully to rent close to the train stations/bus stations (he lives near Cambridge).

I understand where you are coming from. He didn't want to deal with parking hassles, driving in snow, and the added expense of parking fees/car insurance.

Also note, not all NYC boros are not made equal when it comes to ease of public transport. The far eastern parts of Queens, Brooklyn and the southern parts of Staten Island is not as well connected as one would might think.

 

[m1345]

you can take the commuter rail to Belmont just fine from Porter square.

it is a bit trickier to get to Everett, but is certainly very doable using public transport.

Hmm I'm not sure I'd call it "just fine." Residents who are working at McLean during the day have to get over to MGH for didactics weekly mid-day. Its hard to make it there on time even with a car.

CHA-affiliated hospitals are all connected by a shuttle system. A number of residents live in Cambridge and do not have cars. I think the most difficult rotation to be car-less for would be the behavioral neurology rotation at McLean.

 

[heyjack70]

Word of warning if you don't own a car in residency.

Sometimes you will kick someone out of the PES who was malingering, and guess where that guy will go after he leaves the PES? The local streets and use the public transportation.

Remember this if you don't have a car and plan on using public transportation after your PES shift. I lived 1/2 a mile away from the hospital in residency and sometimes rode my bike to work and back home. After seeing the umpteenth patient that I just kicked out that threatened to kill himself and that guy had antisocial PD, a history of violence and he could've assaulted me, I just figured I'd use a car from then on.

This reminded me of another point that is an offshoot of your PES example. In residency you'll be working shifts that often times are not ending at regular hours. For example, getting off on Sunday night at 8pm. This is a time when there are not typical commuters on the buses, and many of the high efficiency and frequent bus routes are not running.

I recall getting off a PES shift at 8pm on a Sunday night and taking the bus. The normal bus to take on a weekday would not have required a transfer, but on Sunday there was no direct route. The transfer stop was downtown, and the bus which was supposed to be there 10 minutes later for me to transfer to actually took 45 minutes to show up. While waiting I got to be the young professional guy, wearing slacks and a button up shirt, in the midst of a sea of loitering homeless folks and clearly drunk street kids. The cops arrested someone a half block away by slamming him onto the sidewalk while he was resisting. I felt very unsafe and stopped taking the bus to that shift.

The point is that this stop at 5pm on a weekday was filled with people just getting off work, but on a Sunday night it was a completely different story.

 

[JamesPhilly]

I also dislike owning a car. My wife has one, but I do not, it is easier for her to drop the kid at daycare with it

That said, Philly is very doable without one. It all depends on how far you live from your program. There are grocery stores, restaurants, etc near by all Philly psych program with the exception of Drexel (friends) which is in the middle of nowhere.

In regards to seeing pts on public transit, so what? There's no guarantee that they won't follow you in your car or make note of your license plate. I've run into pts that I've kicked out on the subway. They give me a mean look. ok. But they most likely pis off a bunch of people in their lives so I reckon I'm in good company. We also know that our pt population (the mentally ill) are more likely to be victims of violence and not the offenders

Finally I've seen the statistic that very early or late at night a good percentage of drivers on the road are intoxicated. So really traveling at those times are more dangerous regardless of the method

Good luck

 

[PhinyGage]

I also dislike owning a car. My wife has one, but I do not, it is easier for her to drop the kid at daycare with it

That said, Philly is very doable without one. It all depends on how far you live from your program. There are grocery stores, restaurants, etc near by all Philly psych program with the exception of Drexel (friends) which is in the middle of nowhere.

In regards to seeing pts on public transit, so what? There's no guarantee that they won't follow you in your car or make note of your license plate. I've run into pts that I've kicked out on the subway. They give me a mean look. ok. But they most likely pis off a bunch of people in their lives so I reckon I'm in good company. We also know that our pt population (the mentally ill) are more likely to be victims of violence and not the offenders

Finally I've seen the statistic that very early or late at night a good percentage of drivers on the road are intoxicated. So really traveling at those times are more dangerous regardless of the method

Good luck

I like this guy....