Residency match from an unranked med school

[Gut Shot]

He's the headlining plastic surgeon on Dr 90210. I think he's brazillian.

That would explain his persistent use of anal sex as contraception.

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[MissTreesh]

hahhahaha..that is freaking hilarious.. I hate his pink suits

 

[diggitybop]

a lot of nonsense on this thread. my brother came from nymc and did his residency in internal at mass gen. i believe he would have had the choice of UCSF but ranked mass gen first in the match. it seems you can write your own ticket once you are in at any US Allo. but whatever. believe that those US rankings are the authority on life. just don't get complacent, otherwise your performance at that top school will end up being your crutch.

 

[postbacker]

a lot of nonsense on this thread. my brother came from nymc and did his residency in internal at mass gen. i believe he would have had the choice of UCSF but ranked mass gen first in the match. it seems you can write your own ticket once you are in at any US Allo. but whatever. believe that those US rankings are the authority on life. just don't get complacent, otherwise your performance at that top school will end up being your crutch.

I am with you on this...but I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right and therefore they are wrong...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

this is almost like a conflict of political beliefs.

people on the "right" think you can get any match from any school. it's just a matter of working hard enough.

people on the "left" emphasize how school reputation can put you at a disadvantage in the zero-sum game of residency placement.

meanwhile, the truth is somewhere in-between.

 

[Dookter]

meanwhile, the truth is somewhere in-between.

truth

 

[diggitybop]

can cold hard facts elucidate this "middle area"? the poster had question about getting into good residency from nymc. it has been done and therefore it can be done. the truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle when its sitting in front of you in the form of residency placement lists. it only remains this intangible truth when you are making so called "left right" statements based only on opinion without having done the research.

 

[Dookter]

can cold hard facts elucidate this "middle area"? the poster had question about getting into good residency from nymc. it has been done and therefore it can be done. the truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle when its sitting in front of you in the form of residency placement lists. it only remains this intangible truth when you are making so called "left right" statements based only on opinion without having done the research.

The "truth is in the middle" statement comes more from the fact that neither statement [right or left] is really fully true. And people really do make these statements, so it's not like anyone is artificially creating a polarized dicotomy of thought here. People can do anything from any school, but not EVERYONE can do it. Likewise, going to a top school will help, but it certainly isn't a golden ticket.

 

[diggitybop]

The "truth is in the middle" statement comes more from the fact that neither statement [right or left] is really fully true. And people really do make these statements, so it's not like anyone is artificially creating a polarized dicotomy of thought here. People can do anything from any school, but not EVERYONE can do it. Likewise, going to a top school will help, but it certainly isn't a golden ticket.

ok. i see what you mean

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

can cold hard facts elucidate this "middle area"? the poster had question about getting into good residency from nymc. it has been done and therefore it can be done. the truth doesn't lie somewhere in the middle when its sitting in front of you in the form of residency placement lists. it only remains this intangible truth when you are making so called "left right" statements based only on opinion without having done the research.

unfortunately, a match list doesn't constitute a "cold hard fact" in the sense of indicating where applicants are *capable* of matching. we don't have enough information for that.

it's valid to ponder whether an applicant at nymc has the same chance to match at y residency as a comparable applicant at harvard. but it's extremely hard to empirically test this, because the process is so complicated and information on applicant preferences is lacking. so instead, we all get on sdn and do mental masturbation thought experiments based on n=1 that indicate one extreme or the other.

the match process is too complicated to take an extreme position on an internet forum, and we should try to assess rather than ignore how complicated it really is. unfortunately, that's not likely to happen as long as we have sdn anecdotes rather than good data.

 

[diggitybop]

i don't seee this as an issue of whether one person from med x has an equal chance to get in as someone who went to harvard. i see these posts more as a knock on a med school and an ignorance of the system. for example, will going to med x keep me from getting into the residency of my choice?

its not so much the school but you the student that will determine where you go. the fact is that it has been done. so no, med x won't keep you from getting your residency of choice. it doesn't mean that you will get the residency if you go to med x. but it also doesn't mean that you will get it if you go to harvard. this may not be true if you are talking about trying to get an average residency (in that case the name may factor in heavily). but it is hard to believe that a top notch residency would take one of their own studetns that has done mediocre on the boards and hasn't really shined in clerkships or whatever over someone that has shined in med x. ( i don't have examples for this just using common sense). of course doing awesome and going to a top notch med school is a different story.

anyhow, so it depends on the person. is this your gray area? if thats the case i agree.

 

[Chulito]

It hasn't all been anecdote and SDN statistics with n=1. The following seems like pretty compelling evidence in favor of one position over the other, although the importance of the USMLE leaves me perplexed and wondering if this is an ophthalmology-specific (i.e. peculiar) ranking of factors.

As for your comment about "No Harvard, No ophthalmology"... well there was a survey given to 1,200 residency program directors of which 793 responded.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=9934296&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum)

The Ophthalmology program directors ranked the relative importance of academic criteria for selecting residents as follows:

1) Grades in required clerkships
2) Number of honors grades
3) Class rank
3) AOA honorary membership
5) Senior specialty elective grades
6) USMLE Step 2 score
7) USMLE Step 1 score
8) Academic awards in medical school
9) Med school's reputation
10) Other senior elective grades
11) Published research
12) Grades in preclinical courses

All of the other specialties (with the exception of psychiatry) gave "med school's reputation" a similarly low ranking.

OP - Sorry you didn't get into the program of your choice. Just do well wherever you go and you can still get into a competitive residency.

 

[Old ortho]

I think this might show how little you know. It's pretty common knowledge that reapplicants who have received an acceptance usually have a very difficult time applying. Additionally, looking at match lists from unranked schools, it's obvious that those kids place well when they do well.




As for your comment about "No Harvard, No ophthalmology"... well there was a survey given to 1,200 residency program directors or which 793 responded (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=9934296&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum).
The Ophthamology program directors ranked the relative importance of academic criteria for selecting residents as follows:

1) Grades in required clerkships
2) Number of honors grades
3) Class rank
3) AOA honorary membership
5) Senior specialty elective grades
6) USMLE Step 2 score
7) USMLE Step 1 score
8) Academic awards in medical school
9) Med school's reputation
10) Other senior elective grades
11) Published research
12) Grades in preclinical courses

All of the other specialties (with the exception of psychiatry) gave "med school's reputation" a similarly low ranking.

OP - Sorry you didn't get into the program of your choice. Just do well wherever you go and you can still get into a competitive residency.

Thank you for your post. It makes me feel SO much better if I end up going to an unranked school!

 

[45408]

It hasn't all been anecdote and SDN statistics with n=1. The following seems like pretty compelling evidence in favor of one position over the other, although the importance of the USMLE leaves me perplexed and wondering if this is an ophthalmology-specific (i.e. peculiar) ranking of factors.

It could be. I've spoken with residents involved in picking their successors, and they named third-year grades and board scores as being some of the most important indicators. Additionally, I find it interesting that Step 1 scores are even below Step 2 scores, even though many M4s don't even release their Step 2 scores to the residencies they're applying to (I've usually heard it's done if your step 1 score is low and you anticipate doing well on step 2).

 

[Chulito]

It could be. I've spoken with residents involved in picking their successors, and they named third-year grades and board scores as being some of the most important indicators. Additionally, I find it interesting that Step 1 scores are even below Step 2 scores, even though many M4s don't even release their Step 2 scores to the residencies they're applying to (I've usually heard it's done if your step 1 score is low and you anticipate doing well on step 2).

I've read the assertion more than once on these boards that some of the most competitive residencies want to see both of them, presumably to make sure that you're consistently solid year after year and haven't simply benefited from a fluke high score (as I did with the MCAT ). These were the opinions of people who had matched or were hoping to match into these specialties rather than residency directors, so the usual grain of salt is in order. It does at least seem reasonable.

 

[Chulito]

Here is post #38 by agscribe from the UCSF vs. UCLA thread, the first part of which deals with the matter at hand. It's followed by a brief discussion of the topic, if you're interested (most of posts #39-#51).

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=389174

I hear a lot of people saying that UCSF has the bigger name that is going get people into the better residencies. I wanted to know the answer to this myself when I posted a similarly titled thread a while ago. I wrote to the residency directors of the top programs in ER, OB/GYN, ortho, Medicine, and Neurosurg. I told them that I had been accepted to both and that I was having a hard time choosing between the two. All five of them unanimously said that they placed no weight on the name of the school whatsoever. They said that they might have a little bias if it was between Ross and Harvard, but not at the level of UCSF and UCLA. Name is nothing, they all said it. Nobody's opinion matters more than those of the residency director's because they make the choices of who gets in and who doesn't. I see a lot of people cheerleading for one school or the other without any real reasons. And I see a lot of people saying that UCLA has P/F and that makes for a more relaxed atmosphere. Well, the two grading systems are almost identical. They are P/F the first two years only, both schools. Then they use a grading scale to differentiate people for the purpose of residency. It is reflected in the letters. Here is a list of what I have found in comparing the two schools.

 

[Chulito]

Here's a relevant post from Tildy in the academic medicine thread from the mentor forum.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=392633

I was curious if where you goes to medical school affects your career in academic medicine. I have heard many times that you should go to the cheapest med school possible, unless you want to go into academics. Is this accurate?

Your advice is a great help!

<snip>

First, as always with unanswerable questions, it's worth giving a couple of personal anecdotes. After all, if the question has no answer and there are no data, what else do we have but experience?

I graduated from a state medical school and a small-program, non-academic residency. When going for fellowship, I recieved a letter from one place that said basically (I'm paraphrasing here) "Tildy, you may be a loyal and good dog, but your breeding line is weak and you can't keep up with the big dogs here." What was interesting about that was that I had never actually applied there, just sent them a letter asking about the program. I've saved that letter and I use it in career talks I give. Everyone has been told they don't belong with the "big dogs" at some point. So, remember these affronts and get even by proving them wrong.

On the other hand, I interviewed at arguably 2 or the 4 most well-known programs in the field, both offered me positions and I accepted one. <snip>

I currently review a lot of applications for grants as well as academic appointmens and promotions. Never, ever have I seen anyone care about someone's medical school. Really. Believe me or not, it doesn't matter, this is the way it is and I review across a fairly wide range of topics, not just my specialty. Some of the best research in certain fields is performed in places you would never think of as academic powerhouses. State schools, small private schools and the like are filled with tremendous academic faculty who contribute to every type of research.

So, bottom line, I can't resolve this endless debate for you or for SDN. This debate will go on forever. I can tell you that there are some academic centers in some fields that care about what medical school you went to. A lot more, however, give it very little if any importance.

So, pick the school that has the program you want in the place you want at the price you can afford. If it is a top academic center, well that won't hurt. If it is a place that has the type of faculty interests and programming that you are interested in - well that's even better. If it's a place that you are comfortable with and leaves you without a massive debt, well, that's the winning school to get your degree at.

 

[8744]

Probably apropos of nothing but I had never heard of UCSF until very recently, the medical school or the university. It's just not a household name like Hopkins or Harvard which I think most reasonably educated people have at least heard of.

My point? You folks get all worked up comparing schools between which even most program directors can't differentiate. As if there's that much difference between UCSF or UAMS.

Harvard Medical School? Big Mojo. UCSF? Not so much.

 

[pennybridge]

He did a fellowship at Harvard, not his med school or residency. According to his online resume, he did med school at Tufts and residencies at Harbor-UCLA and Univ of Tenn.

law school pretty much killed your sense of humor, huh?

 

[PediBoneDoc]

to give you look into the thoughts of a resident selection committee member. i can tell you that school does matter. harvard and ucsf are equal as far as medical schools are concerned. the reason that you school is considered os because it is kind of a pre screen of you previous accomplishments and your competition is assumed to be of a higher caliber. also understand that most schools are regional and have strong ties within a specific area or have a track record of sending people to certain residencies.

that being said, medical school is just one of the factors which is considered and holding out a year to get a better medical school will just delay you and gives you no assurance that you will still get the ultimate outcome you expect.

i will echo the list of a previous post

The Ophthalmology program directors ranked the relative importance of academic criteria for selecting residents as follows:

1) Grades in required clerkships
2) Number of honors grades
3) Class rank
3) AOA honorary membership
5) Senior specialty elective grades
6) USMLE Step 2 score
7) USMLE Step 1 score
8) Academic awards in medical school
9) Med school's reputation
10) Other senior elective grades
11) Published research
12) Grades in preclinical courses

we typically would say these are 5 of the most important things
1) Grades in required clerkships (Number of honors grades)
2) USMLE Step 1 score
3) Senior specialty elective grades
4) AOA honorary membership
5) Published research

but it varies based on person evaluating and specialty. the school really comes into play when comparing one with similar numbers to another. is a top 10 med stud from harvard or ucsf or yale the same as one from chicago med or dexel or medical college of georgia.

in the end comes down to the interview. do also realize going from coast to coast is a little more difficult than staying regionally when you are not in at a top school.

 

[Law2Doc]

law school pretty much killed your sense of humor, huh?

Not really -- it did not appear you were joking until this response (and past threads of others have, in fact, inquired as to Dr Rey's alma maters, so it is a legit question of some; plus he uses a Harvard mug and wears Harvard clothing periodically on the show, fostering this confusion).

Perhaps premed has killed your sense of comedy.

 

[pennybridge]

plus he uses a Harvard mug and wears Harvard clothing periodically on the show

hence the funny

Perhaps premed has killed your sense of comedy.

oh most definitely

these days people laugh when I'm not joking and get creeped out when I am

 

[Gobble Town]

.

 

[Chulito]

The school really comes into play when comparing one with similar numbers to another.

That's exactly what I've always imagined to be the case. How often would you say that it happens that two applicants are so evenly matched?

 

[Gut Shot]

That's exactly what I've always imagined to be the case. How often would you say that it happens that two applicants are so evenly matched?

If an applicant's school comes into play during the screening process then he/she is likely a marginal candidate to begin with. If the value of a Harvard degree is that a marginal candidate from Harvard will score the last interview spot over a marginal candidate from another school, then God help the purveyors of prestige.

 

[PediBoneDoc]

Originally Posted by PediBoneDoc
The school really comes into play when comparing one with similar numbers to another.

That's exactly what I've always imagined to be the case. How often would you say that it happens that two applicants are so evenly matched?

it happens all the time in the resident applicants we review. problem is we only have so many spots and so many good to excellent applicants. (in ortho we could fill are residency with good residents from those who don't match) so how do you chose? there are a number of things you can look at school and school location is one of them. most cali people want to stay in cali, so why would they come east or Midwest. big city tends to like big city, so why would they go to a small city. these are considerations when ranking.

when deciding to interview applicants, there are some schools that have traditionally sent strong residents to a program, so most will be given a benefit of the doubt if their scores are lower. there are some schools and cities who have never sent a resident to a program and may be down graded. best way to get an interview is to do an away rotation and show them that you have a strong desire to be there. (a known is better than an unknown)

there is no formula for this and everyone has their own personal biases toward grades or interview or haircut or blue vs black suit. you just have to do the best with what you have and do it with conviction, no hesitation. in the end, residencies are looking for a good fit (at least we are). we have residents on the selection committee for the pure fact of answering the question of do you think this person will fit in with our group and personality of residents.

medical school matters to those who are trying to have a ivy league pedigree. it helps in cocktail parties and for grandparents bragging rites

 

[Trisomy13]

in response to the original poster's question, with regards to Drexel in particular since it was mentioned. My graduating class matched all over the place - from relatively small community hospitals to UCSF, Cornell, Hopkins, etc. etc. all specialties represented - plenty of ophtho, ENT, derm, integrated plastics, and so on. I had a friend at NYMC that year and their list looked similar to ours. Plenty of Californians in my class that migrated back west for residency.

As other replies have mentioned, once you are in the door to medical school, you can take control, make the most of wherever you are, and have a shot at wherever you want to go, provided you bring something to the table when it's time to apply and interview for residency positions.

another thing to keep in mind - if you are just now applying to med school, you will likely find later in your career that just because a program has a ranked name, you might not want to be there. you'll learn more about this when you start interviewing and realizing that you get a bad vibe from some places, and a better fit at some others.

 

[desout777]

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[ry2140]

Seems like most med schools adcomm put a lot more emphasis in the applicant's quality (MCAT, GPA, extracurricular activities, LOR, essay and interview) than what undergrad school the applicant comes from - possibly with the exception for a few elite schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins. Is that the same case when you apply for a residency when you graduate from med school?

As a California pre-med, I have been put on waitlists by my state school and a couple OOS mid tier schools . Fortunately, I have been accepted by a so called safety school (NYMC), which is unranked by U. S. News. I would like to come back to California to enter a good residency program possibly in internal medicine. How important is it when you apply for residency whether you come from a higher ranked school (e.g. Mount Sinai, UC-San Diego) or from an unranked school (e.g. NYMC, Drexel)? This question does not include the few elite schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins since they may be at a class by themselves.

to old ortho:

ive been racking my brains over the same question for the past few months and have been asking ortho residency directors, attendings, residents, and students. here is what i've come to is the most important when looking to match:

1. grades/step 1's
2. region/letters
3. reputation of the med school

letters, i feel, can go into both 1 and 2 because in the end, a phone call from an attending that loves you will go a long way. but to everyone i've talked to, they say that reputation is important, but your grades and board scores level out the playing field.

every school has their pluses and minuses, regardless of the reputation, so if you do well during med school and want to go back home to cali, im sure you can get a great program because they always want their physicians to come train at home, and hopefully, practice at home.

good luck!