Residency Match Woes

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Thank you! 🙂

Operaman et al: You can't help but feel more sensitive on online posts because several nuances in a face to face conversation are missing. These include facial expressions, tone, etc. Sure you could detect tone through wording, but even that can be misinterpreted, which I confess I may have done so. Also, fragility is part of human nature; you see it in patients ALL THE TIME...even amongst colleagues. If you can't tolerate fragility, then maybe you're in the wrong profession.

I suppose the difference is that I expect a degree of fragility in patients, especially those who are really sick or facing serious diagnoses. Thus far, I haven't expected medical students to display a similar level of fragility and most have enough fortitude to handle the day to day stress of medical education and are able to receive and process feedback. It's the exceptions to that rule which seem to be getting more common. I'm starting to see very calm, respectful negative feedback get reported as abusive, bullying, yelling, etc., even when I've personally witnessed none of that occurring.

Again, this is rare, but seems to be getting more frequent, and I personally hope to find some better strategies to interface with these students. Clearly there've been some culture shifts and both students and those of us who teach them will have to adapt and learn how to communicate with each other effectively.
 
But wouldn't helpful advice be more useful that just stating how things are? I think we all know how things are! But stating it doesn't help anyone, does it?

The best advice to this individual in regards to "geographic discrimination" is pointing out how it is, that there is nothing illegal or even unethical about this, and to say "suck it up". There are far better arguments to be making (for example if they have proof that this organization truly is discriminating against non-whites or females) than "waaaaah, they're favoring people from Utah!". Sometimes saying "deal with it" is the best advice.

If OP had provided actual evidence that discrimination was occurring or was even going into sexism or racism in this thread instead of geography, they'd have gotten different responses. When they decided to focus on the geographic thing, it came off as immature whining at best, and possible trolling.

However, even if there was legitimate discrimination occurring, OP would be better off to just move on in this situation as it would be exceedingly hard to get actual evidence to support it and even harder to prove in a court of law. You'd essentially have to obtain the Rank lists of the program, document the personal demographic information of each applicant, and show that the program was consistently ranking certain protected demographics lower than others. Then you'd have to prove that those rankings were based on said demographics and not merit or simply "fit", which would be near impossible without speaking to each of those applicants individually. So imo not a battle that is likely worth fighting. Besides, if this is truly happening, why would OP want to go to a program with a culture like that? I definitely wouldn't.
 
However, even if there was legitimate discrimination occurring, OP would be better off to just move on in this situation as it would be exceedingly hard to get actual evidence to support it and even harder to prove in a court of law. You'd essentially have to obtain the Rank lists of the program, document the personal demographic information of each applicant, and show that the program was consistently ranking certain protected demographics lower than others. Then you'd have to prove that those rankings were based on said demographics and not merit or simply "fit", which would be near impossible without speaking to each of those applicants individually. So imo not a battle that is likely worth fighting. Besides, if this is truly happening, why would OP want to go to a program with a culture like that? I definitely wouldn't.

This is pretty much how I view this situation as well.

To the OP, what do you really want us to tell you? At some level there is always going to be some aspect of bias as we are human and there’s no getting around it. If you want to make the argument that they’re discrimating against non-Muslims then fine, but then the above statement stands. How much evidence do you have and how much are you willing to fight it? I’m willing to bet they aren’t overtly asking about religious affiliation during the interviews.

Maybe I’m just too practical but there’s always going to be some equality or bias in whatever situation you are dealing with, the extent to which I will “fight” it depends on a number of factors, not the least of which is how much I need to be involved in that situation, and the potential cost to me, whether financial, socially or professionally.

Obviously, if you truly feel that there is discrimination going on then it is certainly your purgative to try and do something about it, just realize that it may cost you in a number of ways.
 
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I had a %chance breakdown for all my ranks and I ended up at a place I thought was least likely to take me and never sent me stuff.
 
OP, have you considered the possibility that those applicants were more qualified than you? I get that you're emotional, lots of us didn't get what we wanted this year, including myself. But the rest of us suck it up and move on. From your level of maturity on this thread, I can see why they might have preferred other applicants over you, from Utah or not. You reek of professional victim. Especially if this came out in the interview (it's not my fault that I only got a pass in that class, the professor was out to get us!) Rather than crying discrimination, maybe it's time for some introspection.
 
>_>

So.... um...

Isn’t this normal practice?
Don’t many medical schools and residencies exist for the purpose of providing xyz physicians to their geographical areas?

Am I missing something?
Yes. It is actually commonly in mission statements that regional selection is preferred.
I for example am a East Coast guy and always wanted to live in the Northwest or West Coast. Back in the day of med school applications, got no reply from the schools out in CA or PNW. Those schools all have a strong regional bias, and I found my education in Alabama, certainly not a destination spot by any stretch. I didn't even apply for residency in those same regions last year because I knew my odds were almost nil - why waste the time and money and build false hope, leading me only to eventually crawl to SDN and vent my spleen about the injustices of life?
 
But it's nevertheless discriminatory which is what the acgme forbids

I don't think you know what discrimination means. First, there is likely a selection bias in the applicants applying to Utah Valley. Individuals who have ties to Utah Valley and strictly mormon are more likely to apply to the program. I don't know why any out of state non-mormon would want to live in and/or work in Provo. So the program is probably selecting between a large amount of mormons. Second, programs are likely to rank individuals who are interested in their program or have ties to the state. That is not discriminatory. Like I said, the program is acutely aware that people without religious or state ties would not likely rank their program vary high nor would they be happy in a program due to the culture of the city.
 
Yes. It is actually commonly in mission statements that regional selection is preferred.
I for example am a East Coast guy and always wanted to live in the Northwest or West Coast. Back in the day of med school applications, got no reply from the schools out in CA or PNW. Those schools all have a strong regional bias, and I found my education in Alabama, certainly not a destination spot by any stretch. I didn't even apply for residency in those same regions last year because I knew my odds were almost nil - why waste the time and money and build false hope, leading me only to eventually crawl to SDN and vent my spleen about the injustices of life?
I thought this wasn't as much the case for residency? I'm from CA but only got in on the East Coast and hate it, you're scaring me 🙁
 
I'm way behind on this thread, so excuse the quotes from the last page.

So are applicants inherently pretty screwed? I've heard of multiple cases where students have been actively recruited by program directors/chairmen to rank their programs very highly, and even to send them "love letters" on one hand, while not being offered positions on the other.

At the same time, students can only send love letters to one school because apparently program directors talk, and know where you're applying because they ask you even though they're not supposed to. For the students we pretty much just have to rank the programs how we see fit and pray?

As has already been mentioned, students are not really "screwed". In fact, the whole point of the match is to help students. I think you're overweighting the impact of a "love letter" in most cases.

Why are pds allowed to talk to each other about candidates and ranking?

This is often mentioned on SDN, and the truth is that in most fields, there's no discussion at all. Perhaps in very small / very competitive fields, it's a thing. But in IM, FP, EM, etc -- there's just too many programs. And I doubt we'd trust each other, anyway. So this is mostly not an issue, despite the talk here.

Actually you'd be surprised at how variable the match range can be!

Most people seem to have an unrealistic sense of how far down the list programs go. The average for IM is 8/match. To fill a program of 10 interns, the average IM program will go down 80 ranks.

I think being a PD is somewhat of a thankless job. Of all the attendings I know personally who have become chairmen recently, not one of them was a PD first. It doesn't seem to be a sure-fire route to bigger and better things. It probably does come with a modest salary bump to compensate for the additional workload, but I would wager it's peanuts compared to what any academic attending could pull in private practice and probably not even near enough to compensate for all the BS they have to deal with. Whenever I read about a problem resident, my heart goes out to the poor PD whose work life is being consumed by some a--hole who can't be a normal human being and play well in the sandbox with other kids. No, I think most of those people do it because they honestly care about educating residents and enjoy that aspect of academic medicine.

It's the best job in the world!

However, can we address the elephant in this forum: the discriminatory selection (race, sex, religion, geography) of candidates accepted into any program.

Just because it commonly happens doesn't mean it's not illegal. It's possible people turned a blind eye to bias. There's just not enough people to protest a common trend.
On paper it sounds great, but on closer inspection of resident lists, it's clear discrimination is going on some level or another.

As for the OP (sorry this thread got so derailed) -- I would beware reading too much in to the makeup of the class as indicative of anything other than the people who ranked it highly. It's actually a problem that's been discussed in the academic medical literature, especially around programs that inadvertently end up skewing all male or all female; it becomes incredibly difficult to get the opposite sex applicants to rank the program high enough. I've heard faculty at other programs saying pre-match they thought they would get their first all-female/male resident class based on how the rank list ended up, only to match the exact opposite. People tend to go where they feel they fit in, so if the program already has a fairly homogenous makeup, it's not unreasonable that similar people will continue to match there of their own accord.

This. I can tell you that my rank list distribution of age, race, sex, etc looks just like the distribution of my applications. But I've had years where the sex ratio of my interns is very imbalanced. We always try to "debug" it and see if we could have done something different, but oftentimes it's luck. Also, certain types of applicants may be attracted to certain types of programs (or certain geographic locations).

Can programs discriminate illegally using the match? Sure, it's possible. It could be done because the people making the rank list are truly biased against some class of people. It could be because they think that those people "just won't fit in around here". For a program that takes a lot of IMG's, it could be because the program leadership wants to support one specific country / nationality -- or it could be that they just have good experiences with some schools (and bad experiences with others). But it's impossible to be certain just looking at final match lists, as any skewed distribution might be driven by applicant ranking preferences.

On the topic of programs preferring applicants with local links, part of that is that we might want to encourage graduates to settle locally, and that's more likely if the applicant has a history of living locally. It's not illegal to do this -- it's not illegal discrimination.
 
I am extremely disappointed in recent UVR Family Med match list. It seems like the PD and residents rank those who are mormon, white, and/or have ties to Utah high, while we out of state applicants are second tier. Not to mention there is only one female in the incoming class!

Am I the only one with an broken heart and venting here??
😡

Wrong there is a female in their incoming class. I actually looked over all the residents and there are some with no direct ties to Utah and a couple of females... stop trying to find a problem when there is none.
 
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I am extremely disappointed in recent UVR Family Med match list. It seems like the PD and residents rank those who are mormon, white, and/or have ties to Utah high, while we out of state applicants are second tier. Not to mention there is only one female in the incoming class!

Am I the only one with an broken heart and venting here??
😡

I believe the OP is a troll. First off, he made his account the day before he posted and his only contribution to SDN are his OP and comments on this post. Secondly, why pick out Utah Valley when the Family Medicine- Rural Track Residency Program in Caldwell Idaho has only 1 female for the entire program and all the residents are white. In fact, most the residents in family medicine programs in Utah are white. If you can't understand application selection bias than you should go back to high school and learn some logic and reasoning. People who apply to residency in Utah and specifically Provo will have certain characteristics in common and likely to be overrepresented in the applicant pool. That increases the chances that their residents will look similar to their applicants. You can't fault a program for the type of med students apply to their residency especially in such an undesirable location.

I highly doubt this poster even applied to UVR or considered UVR high on their list. If the did the is trying to explain why he didn't match in the program without having to look at himself. It's oddly particular out of all the FM residency programs he picked on one located in a town where 88.7% of the population is LDS and 84.8% white, and doesn't have much to offer in terms of entertainment and night life.
 
I am extremely disappointed in recent UVR Family Med match list. It seems like the PD and residents rank those who are mormon, white, and/or have ties to Utah high, while we out of state applicants are second tier. Not to mention there is only one female in the incoming class!

Am I the only one with an broken heart and venting here??
😡

Utah is its own planet. Provo is like 99% LDS, many of them extraordinarily evangelical. They did you a favor.
 
Unless a love letter includes the exact phrase "rank to match" it is 100% meaningless. Even one that contains "rank to match" can't be trusted but I've heard lots and lots of stories of love letters not panning out and I personally have never heard of a "rank to match" letter not panning out.
 
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