Residency on not to Residency

[OcularDZ]

Residency?? Any takers...I am still in limbo...let me know your thoughts...

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[rpames]

I was almost certain I was going to do a residency but now I'm probably not. Unless you plan to work at an OD school or a VA, a residency is really not necessary. I'm sure they give you plenty of great experience, but over the 8 years you will have been in college, you will know how to learn things on your own. If going into private practice is your plan, you can attend CE classes and read the literature.

You will have the opportunities to learn whatever you want with or without a residency.

 

[OcularDZ]

A residency would be nice to ease into the profession. It would also put me a step up on everybody when it comes applying for jobs. I would love to go into private practice someday with ophthalmologist, so I think a residency would be more respected from them. On the other side, I heard you are a little work horse and you get stuck with all the dirty work for a year. I just don't know..i guess I have a year to decided....

You go to ICO, right. What is the Jesse Brown VA like? Is that a good external rotation?

 

[jchod]

Absolutely do one.

 

[xmattODx]

Absolutely do one.

Or don't.

 

[gsinccom]

If you are considering working with OMDs than it may be the best for you. Keep in mind though that I wouldn't be the best to ask but from what I've heard and researched it seems that a residency will certainly give you a leg up on those that don't have a residency, if you get a good one, in that it will give you more experience than you'd might otherwise be able to get. However doing a residency does keep you 1 year away from building your own practice and or making the big bucks with our good friend Wallmart. So if you aren't going to work for an OMD or do research maybe it isn't the best?

Jchod...nice to see you on the forum again...I addressed a post to you a few weeks ago( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234945 )- take a look and comment..it sure would be helpful. chudner got to it but not you. hope all is well for ya.

 

[Eyegirl2k7]

Ocular DZ,

The word around school is that the jesse brown VA (West side) is very hardcore and that you have ridiculous hours. Good experience though.

I think most VAS are the same--a lot of ocular disease, a lot of work.

Eyegirl
(future cls resident).

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

A residency would be nice to ease into the profession. It would also put me a step up on everybody when it comes applying for jobs. I would love to go into private practice someday with ophthalmologist, so I think a residency would be more respected from them. On the other side, I heard you are a little work horse and you get stuck with all the dirty work for a year. I just don't know..i guess I have a year to decided....

You go to ICO, right. What is the Jesse Brown VA like? Is that a good external rotation?

Wrong .1. omds don't know anything about od residencies and they don't care to know. 2. OMDS DON'T RESPECT ODS I work with 4 of them and they are very nice to me but they don't respect the ods in the practice . You have to understand that they don't even respect other mds. You would believe what they say if you'd like to know i'll post it.

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

If you are considering working with OMDs than it may be the best for you. Keep in mind though that I wouldn't be the best to ask but from what I've heard and researched it seems that a residency will certainly give you a leg up on those that don't have a residency, if you get a good one, in that it will give you more experience than you'd might otherwise be able to get. However doing a residency does keep you 1 year away from building your own practice and or making the big bucks with our good friend Wallmart. So if you aren't going to work for an OMD or do research maybe it isn't the best?

Jchod...nice to see you on the forum again...I addressed a post to you a few weeks ago( http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234945 )- take a look and comment..it sure would be helpful. chudner got to it but not you. hope all is well for ya.

What alot of my friends and I did was work for an omd instead of doing a residency, why make 25,000 and slave when I can make 80,000 working for an omd.

 

[KHE]

You have to understand that they don't even respect other mds. You would believe what they say if you'd like to know i'll post it.

Don't bother posting that even if someone asks you to. It will just set of another limp flame war.

 

[jchod]

All I can say is that having done one, I feel FAR more confident in managing difficult patients that I feel most other ODs would have referred. You can get that kind of knowledge and confidence elsewhere, but having done one, I certainly am a better Dr. because of it. And didn't we all go to school with the goal of being the best Dr.s we could be? In my mind residencies should be a requirement for ODs. -but that’s just my opinion.

 

[OcularDZ]

What type of residency did you do? and Where?
thanks.

 

[05od]

i think people are right from both perspectives but i agree that where you want to work at in the future is a huge deciding factor. As stated before, if you want to work at a school or VA hospital then its a pretty easy decision. But as many others have stated, if your just planning on going into a regular practice many times you can gain the same experience, gaining a higher salary. I found it rather easy getting a job with an opthal. right after school because I did a rotation with him. We do most of the full range of stuff, glaucoma, lasik, pre- post- ops, etc that you might not find at a private practice, so I think I'm getting alot of the same exposure (this is assuming your not doing a specific residency like cornea/contact lens or something like that) I've served at 2 VA hospitals where there were numerous residents, and I can tell you at those specific locations I'd be no better off as far as an educational standpoint. Anyways, bottom line, I think you gotta figure out where you want to be in the future, and do your research about the place you are going to serve the residency if you are in fact going to do one.

 

[jchod]

Having done one and you need to be very careful which one you do if any, but having done one in Salt Lake, I was FAR better off for haveing done it than those interns that I saw who just otated though fo a few months then gaduated. Far better off, seriously. More knowledgable about how and what to treat, my comfort level of managing dz., and I worked VERY closely with the Moran Eye Center and the faculty there. Working in the retina clinics doing a couple of FAs a day, working in the plastics and peds clinics. Really, a whole new level of experience and knowledge. But be cautious and really investigate each program. Many can be just a fifth year of the same thing again.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Having done one and you need to be very careful which one you do if any, but having done one in Salt Lake, I was FAR better off for haveing done it than those interns that I saw who just otated though fo a few months then gaduated. Far better off, seriously. More knowledgable about how and what to treat, my comfort level of managing dz., and I worked VERY closely with the Moran Eye Center and the faculty there. Working in the retina clinics doing a couple of FAs a day, working in the plastics and peds clinics. Really, a whole new level of experience and knowledge. But be cautious and really investigate each program. Many can be just a fifth year of the same thing again.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but here goes. The advantage of a residency, and I agree with the above that you need to be very careful about which one you do, is that you gain so much knowledge in such a little time. I agree that you might be able to get the same knowledge working for an OMD, but it will take so much longer to get that same comfort level because of the reduced number of disease cases in private practice. For example, at Bascom Palmer, I worked in a different clinic each day.

Monday was retina, where we saw 60 retina cases a day.

Tuesday was glaucoma. Not your normal run of the mill 0.6 cups with elevated pressure controlled with Travatan. We saw 25 patients a day and 90% had at least one tube with a few of them having 3 tubes. How many OMD's in private practice that you work for will have the time to let you watch a tube suture ligation with a laser, let alone even have any of those patients in their clinic.

Wednesday was private practice working with indigent patients. I can't even list all of the things we saw there. Let's just say that Miami has a very sick population.

Thurdsay was neuro. 15 patients a day with Myasthenia Gravis, Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension, Internuclear Ophthalmoplegia, Grave's Dz, etc.

Friday was cornea. 45 patients with Keratoconus, corneal transplants, s/p LASIK, herpetic ulcers, etc.

On top of that we had FA conference and grand rounds with the ophthalmology residents once a week. Private practice docs are not seeing anywhere near the same amount of disease or even, in some cases, the same level of diseases. At Bascom Palmer, every patient we saw in the OMD clinics had a problem because it was a referral center. Unless you are working for a group of subspecialists, the majority of patients you will see in the OMD office will have little or no problems with their eyes. Also, most OD's working for an OMD have their own clinic which will not be the same patients that need to see the OMD. There won't be the time to follow the OMD into a room with an interesting case because you will have your own patients to see.

The bottom line is, you won't earn more money because of a residency, you won't get more respect, and it may not help you get a job (unless you want to work at a VA or at an educational setting). What it will do for you is increase your comfort level with difficult cases far quicker than if you just went into practice right after graduation (and depending where you work, you may never reach the same comfort level). I can honestly say I refer far less to ophthalmology than my classmates that did not complete a residency.

 

[KHE]

To be far, most optometric residencies, while intensive are not going to be as intensive as Dr. Chudners.

I too did a residency, and I am a big proponent of them for the same reasons given here.

The truth is that a residency will NOT garner you additional salary. It will NOT make you more attractive to most potential employers. In fact, most of the places that require residency training such as the VA or IHS are situations that usually pay LESS than elsewhere.

Patients will not care whether you have done a residency or not. More than half the patients you see don't even know what an optometrist is/does anyways. So they sure as heck aren't going to be able to differentiate between residency and non residency trained.

However, I know for a fact that I referred out FAR fewer cases than my collegues who were not residency trained. A couple of months ago, I was doing some fill in days while on break, and I managed a case of pseudotumor cerebri in a 12 year old girl. How many ODs would have taken one look at those swollen nerves, got a small cramp in their stomach, and made an immediate referal to a retinal specialist (who will do nothing except order an MRI, spinal tap, and maybe prescribe some diamox?)

That's the value of residency training.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this, but here goes. The advantage of a residency, and I agree with the above that you need to be very careful about which one you do, is that you gain so much knowledge in such a little time. I agree that you might be able to get the same knowledge working for an OMD, but it will take so much longer to get that same comfort level because of the reduced number of disease cases in private practice. For example, at Bascom Palmer, I worked in a different clinic each day.

Monday was retina, where we saw 60 retina cases a day.

Tuesday was glaucoma. Not your normal run of the mill 0.6 cups with elevated pressure controlled with Travatan. We saw 25 patients a day and 90% had at least one tube with a few of them having 3 tubes. How many OMD's in private practice that you work for will have the time to let you watch a tube suture ligation with a laser, let alone even have any of those patients in their clinic.

Wednesday was private practice working with indigent patients. I can't even list all of the things we saw there. Let's just say that Miami has a very sick population.

Thurdsay was neuro. 15 patients a day with Myasthenia Gravis, Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension, Internuclear Ophthalmoplegia, Grave's Dz, etc.

Friday was cornea. 45 patients with Keratoconus, corneal transplants, s/p LASIK, herpetic ulcers, etc.

On top of that we had FA conference and grand rounds with the ophthalmology residents once a week. Private practice docs are not seeing anywhere near the same amount of disease or even, in some cases, the same level of diseases. At Bascom Palmer, every patient we saw in the OMD clinics had a problem because it was a referral center. Unless you are working for a group of subspecialists, the majority of patients you will see in the OMD office will have little or no problems with their eyes. Also, most OD's working for an OMD have their own clinic which will not be the same patients that need to see the OMD. There won't be the time to follow the OMD into a room with an interesting case because you will have your own patients to see.

The bottom line is, you won't earn more money because of a residency, you won't get more respect, and it may not help you get a job (unless you want to work at a VA or at an educational setting). What it will do for you is increase your comfort level with difficult cases far quicker than if you just went into practice right after graduation (and depending where you work, you may never reach the same comfort level). I can honestly say I refer far less to ophthalmology than my classmates that did not complete a residency.

 

[rpie]

However, I know for a fact that I referred out FAR fewer cases than my collegues who were not residency trained. A couple of months ago, I was doing some fill in days while on break, and I managed a case of pseudotumor cerebri in a 12 year old girl. How many ODs would have taken one look at those swollen nerves, got a small cramp in their stomach, and made an immediate referal to a retinal specialist (who will do nothing except order an MRI, spinal tap, and maybe prescribe some diamox?)

That's the value of residency training.

Ken, It's good to see that you haven’s totally given up on Optometry !
I think a residency will make you a better Doc. and everyone should consider doing one if you can...... even my youngest brother did one.

 

[Ben Chudner]

To be far, most optometric residencies, while intensive are not going to be as intensive as Dr. Chudners.

This is very true, and is why a lot of us have said to choose your residency wisely. When I graduated, the ocular disease residency at Berkeley was essentially a 5th year of optometry school. The majority of clinic hours were spent in the ocular disease mod overseeing fourth years. I can assure you there was not a ton of disease that walked through that door. On the other hand, the VA residencies can see a lot of disease, but it all depends on the VA. In the Bay Area, the majority of the VA patients had either glaucoma or diabetes. Not the most difficult cases. I can't speak for the other VA's, but you should be sure you are not going to essentially be a 5th year extern.

 

[jchod]

To be far, most optometric residencies, while intensive are not going to be as intensive as Dr. Chudners.

I too did a residency, and I am a big proponent of them for the same reasons given here.

The truth is that a residency will NOT garner you additional salary. It will NOT make you more attractive to most potential employers. In fact, most of the places that require residency training such as the VA or IHS are situations that usually pay LESS than elsewhere.

Patients will not care whether you have done a residency or not. More than half the patients you see don't even know what an optometrist is/does anyways. So they sure as heck aren't going to be able to differentiate between residency and non residency trained.

However, I know for a fact that I referred out FAR fewer cases than my collegues who were not residency trained. A couple of months ago, I was doing some fill in days while on break, and I managed a case of pseudotumor cerebri in a 12 year old girl. How many ODs would have taken one look at those swollen nerves, got a small cramp in their stomach, and made an immediate referal to a retinal specialist (who will do nothing except order an MRI, spinal tap, and maybe prescribe some diamox?)

That's the value of residency training.

I think it is a bit presumptuous to boldly say it WILL NOT this and that. It certainly does not guarantee you more money or a better job. But it may, even if in a small way. I may. It will get you more money if you account for the more dz. you are comfortable treating and following, that cannot be debated. But to say it will NOT this-or-that is a little absurd.

 

[KHE]

I think it is a bit presumptuous to boldly say it WILL NOT this and that. It certainly does not guarantee you more money or a better job. But it may, even if in a small way. I may. It will get you more money if you account for the more dz. you are comfortable treating and following, that cannot be debated. But to say it will NOT this-or-that is a little absurd.

You're right. You should never talk in absolutes. But anyone who is residency trained, or who has been in a position to hire an OD will tell you that residency training, while nice, is almost never a deciding factor in who gets hired, (especially in optometric practices) and it's even less likely to be a factor in determining how much you are going to be paid.

Almost always, the only way a residency will garner you more money is in the treatment and management of conditions that you can keep in your office that you might have referred out otherwise.

 

[gsinccom]

You're right. You should never talk in absolutes. But anyone who is residency trained, or who has been in a position to hire an OD will tell you that residency training, while nice, is almost never a deciding factor in who gets hired, (especially in optometric practices) and it's even less likely to be a factor in determining how much you are going to be paid.

Almost always, the only way a residency will garner you more money is in the treatment and management of conditions that you can keep in your office that you might have referred out otherwise.

what are the deciding factors in who gets hired?

 

[xmattODx]

what are the deciding factors in who gets hired?

Do you have a license?
When can you start?

 

[gsinccom]

Do you have a license?
When can you start?

I'm assuming that is great for commercial but what if you want to work with OMDs and/or work into a buy-out agreement with a private practice OD soon to be retiring?

 

[xmattODx]

work into a buy-out agreement with a private practice OD soon to be retiring?

Do you have a license?
When can you start?
How soon will you have buy-out money?


You may think I'm being facetious but honestly I've interviewed for commercial jobs, private practice jobs, and academic and have not had one question asked that relates to anything other than the above. I have not interviewed with an OMD though maybe they ask the tough questions!

 

[still_confused]

Do you have a license?
When can you start?

LOL, looks like getting a job wont be that hard!

 

[ariel winter]

getting a job wont be difficult, but getting a job you WANT where you want w/ the salary you want may prove difficult.

LOL, looks like getting a job wont be that hard!

 

[Hines302]

Exactly... Walmart and Lensecrafter Jobs will be easy to come by. But if thats not your cup of tea... then landing a good job may take a while.

 

[cpw]

Exactly... Walmart and Lensecrafter Jobs will be easy to come by. But if thats not your cup of tea... then landing a good job may take a while.

that statement totally depends on where you live.

 

[Ben Chudner]

getting a job wont be difficult, but getting a job you WANT where you want w/ the salary you want may prove difficult.

Knowing what job you want will prove just as difficult. Everyone thinks they know exactly what type of practice and what part of the country they want, but it usually changes once you get out.

 

[ariel winter]

this is so true too! i completely agree... 4-5 years is a long ways away. thanks!

Knowing what job you want will prove just as difficult. Everyone thinks they know exactly what type of practice and what part of the country they want, but it usually changes once you get out.