Residency questions

kingbill21

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Hi. I am a high school senior now, and I want to become a neurosurgeon (maybe a CT surgeon, whichever route is shorter). So far, this is what I know about the path to becoming a neurosurgeon:

1) finish high school - 1 more year
2) finish Undergrad -4 years
3) finish med school - 4 years
4) residency - 7/8i(?) years
5) fellowship (? I have no clue what that is) - 3(?) years
6) get a job and work hard for most of my life

Wow, I just realized that I will probably be 38 by the time I get an actual job... So my real question is about the residency part. Is it pretty much like finding a job (except you get pathetic pay)? How do you learn how to operate on people's brains during the residency? Do you still go to school during the residency to learn the details of how to operate? Also, what is a fellowship, and how is it different from the residency. Sorry about the long post, but I really want to know how everything works, so I could plan it out.

Thanks!
 
It's nice to show some interest in medicine and what you want to do, but you have a long way to go man.

You should focus on getting into a good college and rocking your sat/act in hopes of getting some scholarships.

Don't worry about what you're going to specialize in right now, you do rotations in medical school to get a better feel for what you would want to do. You will probably change your mind more than a few times about what you want to specialize in and really wont have any idea until you do your rotations. You may even decide medicine isn't for you after getting into your tougher undergraduate classes.

To answer a couple of your questions, yes 4 years undergrad, 4 years medical school, and I believe 7 years to become a neurosurgeon. A fellowship is basically like a residency, but more advanced specialized training.

Don't worry about this right now, finish up high school, rock the sat/act, go to a good college, rock the MCAT and get a high gpa, get into medical school and discover what you would want to specialize in there.

Your going down a long road and it's pointless to think about what you're going to specialize in nine years down that road.

Best of luck
 
Hi. I am a high school senior now, and I want to become a neurosurgeon (maybe a CT surgeon, whichever route is shorter). So far, this is what I know about the path to becoming a neurosurgeon:

1) finish high school - 1 more year
2) finish Undergrad -4 years
3) finish med school - 4 years
4) residency - 7/8i(?) years
5) fellowship (? I have no clue what that is) - 3(?) years
6) get a job and work hard for most of my life

Wow, I just realized that I will probably be 38 by the time I get an actual job... So my real question is about the residency part. Is it pretty much like finding a job (except you get pathetic pay)? How do you learn how to operate on people's brains during the residency? Do you still go to school during the residency to learn the details of how to operate? Also, what is a fellowship, and how is it different from the residency. Sorry about the long post, but I really want to know how everything works, so I could plan it out.

Thanks!

You are no where near sniffing of your questions. Any answer we give you will probably be irrelevant by the time you actually need to know the answer. Come back when you're actually applying to med school.
 
Hi. I am a high school senior now, and I want to become a neurosurgeon (maybe a CT surgeon, whichever route is shorter). So far, this is what I know about the path to becoming a neurosurgeon:

1) finish high school - 1 more year
2) finish Undergrad -4 years
3) finish med school - 4 years
4) residency - 7/8i(?) years
5) fellowship (? I have no clue what that is) - 3(?) years
6) get a job and work hard for most of my life

Wow, I just realized that I will probably be 38 by the time I get an actual job... So my real question is about the residency part. Is it pretty much like finding a job (except you get pathetic pay)? How do you learn how to operate on people's brains during the residency? Do you still go to school during the residency to learn the details of how to operate? Also, what is a fellowship, and how is it different from the residency. Sorry about the long post, but I really want to know how everything works, so I could plan it out.

Thanks!

During residency you don't really go to school. You learn by taking care of patients and learning hands on. This is good and bad.

In terms of learning how to operate, you first learn to manage people on the floor (ie after surgery) during your first year and get just a little OR time. During the next few years you learn to opperate.

Neurosurg is a 7 year program i think (residency). You can focus even more in a niche of neurosurg after that (fellowship)

CT surgery can either be a fellowship after gen surg residency (5 year General surgery residency followed by CT surgery fellowship) or a dedicated CT surgery residency (don't know how many years).

So really it's 9 years with HS, College and med school. 5-9 more for residency and fellowship
 
During residency you don't really go to school. You learn by taking care of patients and learning hands on. This is good and bad.

In terms of learning how to operate, you first learn to manage people on the floor (ie after surgery) during your first year and get just a little OR time. During the next few years you learn to opperate.

Neurosurg is a 7 year program i think (residency). You can focus even more in a niche of neurosurg after that (fellowship)

CT surgery can either be a fellowship after gen surg residency (5 year General surgery residency followed by CT surgery fellowship) or a dedicated CT surgery residency (don't know how many years).

So really it's 9 years with HS, College and med school. 5-9 more for residency and fellowship
Neurosurgery is either a 6 or 7 year residency. Some neurosurgeons will elect to do a 1-2 year fellowship afterwards (e.g. pediatric neurosurgery, skull base surgery, endovascular/"interventional" neurosurgery).

I believe CT surgery is a 2-3 year fellowship, and many CT surgeons also will complete a 1-2 year vascular surgery fellowship. Ultimately, expect to complete anywhere from 3-5 years of fellowship after finishing a 5 year general surgery residency. The fast-track program I believe is 6-7 years total, but these programs are the minority. The vast majority of CT surgeons come from traditional CT fellowship following a general surgery residency. Bottom line... both specialties require a ton of training, and frankly if you're seriously considering either specialty there's not much point in weighing in the number of years.

What it will ultimately boil down to is which specialty you enjoy practicing. The two fields are night and day with regard to the patient population, pathology (types of disease you treat), expected outcome... etc etc.
 
You are no where near sniffing of your questions. Any answer we give you will probably be irrelevant by the time you actually need to know the answer. Come back when you're actually applying to med school.

Yes but hSDN is for high school students. This is where they can go to get these questions answered. While it's certainly true that most of them will change their career paths or specialties telling them to go away until they are applying to med school defeats the purpose of this board.
 
Yes but hSDN is for high school students. This is where they can go to get these questions answered. While it's certainly true that most of them will change their career paths or specialties telling them to go away until they are applying to med school defeats the purpose of this board.

Thanks, guys. I was just reading over the neurosurgeon forums, and I read that the surgeons have to pay up to almost 300k a year on malpractice insurance... Considering that after 5 years, a surgeons pay will be around 450-500k/year, your final salary, after taxes and insurance, will be not so great (ballpark of 120k)... (right?). So then, would this actually be a financially rewarding job?
 
Thanks, guys. I was just reading over the neurosurgeon forums, and I read that the surgeons have to pay up to almost 300k a year on malpractice insurance... Considering that after 5 years, a surgeons pay will be around 450-500k/year, your final salary, after taxes and insurance, will be not so great (ballpark of 120k)... (right?). So then, would this actually be a financially rewarding job?


If you want to be a doctor for the money, then you need a new profession.

However, most hospitals cover your malpractice insurance. A ct surgeon, a neurosurgeon, or even a general surgeon all make very good money. Yes they are "financially rewarding" but they are not typically "family rewarding" surgeons are putting a very large number of hours into their job each week.
 
If you want to be a doctor for the money, then you need a new profession.

However, most hospitals cover your malpractice insurance. A ct surgeon, a neurosurgeon, or even a general surgeon all make very good money. Yes they are "financially rewarding" but they are not typically "family rewarding" surgeons are putting a very large number of hours into their job each week.

Those uber fields are financially rewarding, but keep in mind that by the time you're in med school you'll be shelling out $300,000 for your post-college education, multiplied by tons of interest since you won't b e able to really pay them much in your first couple of years of residency. Also note that you'll be working 80-100 hrs/wk at least for 7 straight years with very little time for relationships. And yes, you'll be in your late 30's before you actually are financially secure. and with nearly no retirement savings. You'll be in your 50's before you surpass other careers in your net worth.

Now if this is what you really want, then nothing I say will deter you.
 
Thanks, guys. I was just reading over the neurosurgeon forums, and I read that the surgeons have to pay up to almost 300k a year on malpractice insurance... Considering that after 5 years, a surgeons pay will be around 450-500k/year, your final salary, after taxes and insurance, will be not so great (ballpark of 120k)... (right?). So then, would this actually be a financially rewarding job?

Never enter medicine for money: you'll most likely end-up crass and jaded.

The hospital or group you work for pays for your malpractice (or at least they will 99% of the time, and if they don't it's usually stated in the job posting), so the 450-500k is your pre-tax take-home pay. Neurosurgeons and CT surgeons might make a lot of money, but their debt balloons while they are in residency simply because it takes so many years. Also, remember that CT and neurosurgery are not lifestyle specialties; they are their own lifestyles
 
Hi. I am a high school senior now, and I want to become a neurosurgeon (maybe a CT surgeon, whichever route is shorter).

I'm just amused that you want the one that's shorter but have chosen two specialties with long, long training periods. 🙂

I guess the only useful thing I have to say is that you'd probably do well to keep an open mind. Not only about med specialties -- about careers in general. Everyone goes to college wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, or one of a few other fields... and a significant number of 'em change their minds for one reason or another.

That, and with you mentioning numbers and choosing two fields which pay handsomely... the "don't do it for the money" thing is spot on. All but only the most idealistic medical students considered the financial potential in medicine to be a big plus, but you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors to go for the money alone. Important? Absolutely, and anyone saying otherwise is either naïve / hopelessly idealistic or hasn't thought things all the way through.

But it's not exactly the best #1 reason.
 
I guess the only useful thing I have to say is that you'd probably do well to keep an open mind. Not only about med specialties -- about careers in general. Everyone goes to college wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, or one of a few other fields... and a significant number of 'em change their minds for one reason or another.

This is all gold--re-read this several times.

Also to the OP, and other hSDN individuals, or pre-meds, keep this token of advice in the back of your head: do not enter med school with the expectations that 'I have to be a neuro or CT surgeon' or 'I'd only be happy doing neurosurg of CT' (OP, it's perfectly fine to explore and consider different careers right now). When you are getting ready to apply to med school, if the thought of going into family medicine or IM or peds sounds like a fate worse than death, then don't apply to med school. You might realize that CT or neurosurgery is not for you. What then? Or if you're not competitive for either of them, what will you do? There is nothign wrong with going in with a hunch, but if certain specialties or specialty is all you could see yourself doing, medicine may not be the right choice. Primary care is the foundation from which all specialties are based, and you need to realize that you might spend your career in PC
 
Never enter medicine for money: you'll most likely end-up crass and jaded.

Ya, I understand what you are saying, but the money is not just for myself. My uncle died a few years ago, and we are not a very rich family, so I took it onto myself to help pay for his children's educations in whatever way I can. I was really close to my uncle, so this is very important to me. I also need to help pay for my sister's education and also not try to torture my dad with debt problems. I want to make sure that he retires by the time he is 65, so I need to be able to support my parents also when I get a job, in addition to paying off debts. I hope I made myself more clear. Sorry for the long reply, but I did not want to come off as a money-*****.
 
A bit of clarification about malpractice:

the hospital only pays for it if you are a hospital employee

your employer only pays for it if you are an employee

salary calculations/estimates are usually net rather than gross

Most neurosurgeons, general surgeons and CT surgeons in this country are in private practice according to the ACS. Therefore, unless you are an employee of a practice (which you may be for the first couple of years), you are responsible for paying your malpractice. This will "come off the top." There are some groups which divide it equally and there are others, especially those in high litigation specialties where the rates may differ amongst the partners, where you pay what you owe.

(NB: there was also a note above about "most" CT surgeons also doing a vascular surgery fellowship; I would venture that this is rather unusual as most CT surgeons are not interested in doing peripheral vascular work and this would be outside of their normal focus. If anything, some go on to do Heart Transplant, Peds CT or Thoracic fellowships rather than Vascular).
 
Last edited:
120,000? No way.

I know that full time radiologists average about 350-400,000 a year gross, which is roughly 210,000-240,000 net. (40% lost to taxes)

Not sure about neurosurgery average salaries, but I believe that they make more than the radiologists. Note that even though they make more, if they work substantially more hours (which I believe is true) then their per hour compensation is not that great.

Also, note that the salary surveys that you see are AFTER malpractice insurance premiums.

Thanks, guys. I was just reading over the neurosurgeon forums, and I read that the surgeons have to pay up to almost 300k a year on malpractice insurance... Considering that after 5 years, a surgeons pay will be around 450-500k/year, your final salary, after taxes and insurance, will be not so great (ballpark of 120k)... (right?). So then, would this actually be a financially rewarding job?
 
I disagree about the 300,000 figure you spout. Depending on what undergraduate debt one has, it is very possible to graduate with about 200,000 loan debt after medical school. (without undergrad debt, that is)

It depends what your wants and "needs" are. At my school, I'm paying 500 for rent + utilities, internet, food etc. Many of my classmates are paying 800/month. That doesn't sound like much but its 3,600 over one year. Over 4 years its 14,400. Take into account the many other living expenses and you can be in much more or less debt. (bike versus car, used books versus new, expensive gym membership or outdoor sports)

You CAN pay down your debt in residency. Its your choice if you want a mortgage or not. You can live in a small, affordable apartment and rent.

Choices, choices, choices.

Another pet peeve: many people compare their 200-300,000 loan debt after med school with the "50,000" that people can make after undergrad. They say that they spent 7+ years in med school/residency while their colleagues in other fields can make 350,000+ in that same time period. Well, not exactly. They ALSO have living expenses to take into account. Its only accurate to compare apples and apples. Thus, if you owe 300,000 after med school, your classmate making 50,000 a year will really only have something like 30,000 a year in the bank each year due to their own living expenses.

Finally, I would bet anything that you will change your mind (to the OP) in college or even in med school. I doubt that you've worked 80,90, 100 hours a week and would willingly embrace neurosurgery's VERY intense lifestyle. Please keep an open mind towards other professions like teaching, PhD route, law, business, etc.

Those uber fields are financially rewarding, but keep in mind that by the time you're in med school you'll be shelling out $300,000 for your post-college education, multiplied by tons of interest since you won't b e able to really pay them much in your first couple of years of residency. Also note that you'll be working 80-100 hrs/wk at least for 7 straight years with very little time for relationships. And yes, you'll be in your late 30's before you actually are financially secure. and with nearly no retirement savings. You'll be in your 50's before you surpass other careers in your net worth.

Now if this is what you really want, then nothing I say will deter you.
 
Medicine isn't as much money as you think. Your opportunity cost is very heavy and the money you get is worth a lot less than if you had gotten it earlier. (time value of money, inflation)

Look at the AAMC PDF files that have calculated the NPV of a career in medicine versus business and law.

Ya, I understand what you are saying, but the money is not just for myself. My uncle died a few years ago, and we are not a very rich family, so I took it onto myself to help pay for his children's educations in whatever way I can. I was really close to my uncle, so this is very important to me. I also need to help pay for my sister's education and also not try to torture my dad with debt problems. I want to make sure that he retires by the time he is 65, so I need to be able to support my parents also when I get a job, in addition to paying off debts. I hope I made myself more clear. Sorry for the long reply, but I did not want to come off as a money-*****.
 
Ya, I understand what you are saying, but the money is not just for myself. My uncle died a few years ago, and we are not a very rich family, so I took it onto myself to help pay for his children's educations in whatever way I can. I was really close to my uncle, so this is very important to me. I also need to help pay for my sister's education and also not try to torture my dad with debt problems. I want to make sure that he retires by the time he is 65, so I need to be able to support my parents also when I get a job, in addition to paying off debts. I hope I made myself more clear. Sorry for the long reply, but I did not want to come off as a money-*****.

Wanting to be financially secure is perfectly fine, but medicine, especially neruo and CT surgery, is not that straight forward. If you want to make good money quickly, dentistry, pharmacy or business (assuming you go to a prestigious undergrad), is a better option. Assuming you get into med school on the first try, it'll be 16 yearrs before you make an attending salary, i.e. you sister would need to be 1-4 years old right now if you planned to be able to pay for any part of her education; you father would have to ne, at max, 49 years old right now. FYI, integrated CT is 6 years

You can look at FREIDA training stastics to see how much a resident gets paid. Unfortuantely for NS, most of the programs don't list that much information. One NS program, a community program in AZ, gives a salary for PGY1 (your first year of residency), of $46,550, and during the last year of residency you'll be paid $61,505. Some schools also give housing stipends (usually in expensive cities, like SF, NYC, and Boston), but they're only a few hundrer dollars a month. In NS, you'll probably unable to moonlight at all because you'll be working 80 hours a week (the cap on how many hours a week a resident can work), so you'll be inelidgible to moonlight (at least at your own institution).

Once you're an attending, you'll make a very competitive salary, but realize the cost of medical education is out-pacing the growth in physician salaries. This means you'll most likely have more debt relative to your starting salary than someone who is about to start a NS residency. So not only will you have a huge amount of student loans after med school, assuming you live in a state outside the south, you'll be paying a small fortune, even if you are in-state. Being OOS or going to a private school looks even more dire. Even today, if you do income base requirement, which requires you to pay 15% of your pretax income towards your loans (technically, you deduct a poverty level amount, about 15k, from your salary, so if you made 50k, you would have to pay 15% OF 35K). However, all loans originating after 2014 will only require a 10% payment. So, assuming cost of attendance outpaces salaries, including salaries of residents, by the time you start residency, 10% of your income will be unable to pay-off the interest your loans accrue each year, meaning your loans continue to grow and grow.

Now, by the time your an attending, after working 80-hour work weeks for the past 7 years, you're going to finally want to afford nice things AND pay-off your student loans. 400-500k is a lot of money, but although it might seem otherwise right now, it'll take a lot of courage/drive to help your family as much as you seem to want to right now.

Also, in above post, I mentioned that NS and CT are not lifestyle specialties, they are lifestyles. I remember hearing a joke a few years ago that Duke's NS program bills itself as having a 120% divorce rate. All the CT and NS I have known work hard--really, really hard. They have spouses of steel, and their children realize that mommy or daddy will probably not be at the Little League Game or be able to help them with thei science fair project. The ones who are able to do all of this have a spouse, personal assistant, and blackberry of solid steel: learning to find time for your family when you are a NS or CT is difficult, and not all people master it. One of my best friends from undergrad will be applying to integrated CT residencies this up-coming cycle, and she's admitted time and time again that she'll probably never marry or have kids. Now, this is her choice/mentality, which doesn't mean that women can't be successful NS or CT surgeons and have a spouse and kids, but it's a difficult job. If you want to raise a family, other specialties, like psych, FM, and PM&R tend to have much better hours.

Now, I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I just want to give you some information. It's great that you are already considering a career in medicine, but it's worth knowing what you might be getting yourself into. Good luck!
 
Ya, I understand what you are saying, but the money is not just for myself. My uncle died a few years ago, and we are not a very rich family, so I took it onto myself to help pay for his children's educations in whatever way I can. I was really close to my uncle, so this is very important to me. I also need to help pay for my sister's education and also not try to torture my dad with debt problems. I want to make sure that he retires by the time he is 65, so I need to be able to support my parents also when I get a job, in addition to paying off debts. I hope I made myself more clear. Sorry for the long reply, but I did not want to come off as a money-*****.


As others have said, you're not going to be able to help out or contribute financially to anyone in your family for a very long time if you're looking at the pathways you mentioned. 15-20 years at least down the road.
 
Hi. I am a final year med student in Lagos, Nigeria. Was wondering about doing a residency in Cardio-thoracic surgery in Australia. Any useful links? Tanx.
 
Top