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Residency: Your school makes a difference!
Started by dr_almondjoy_do
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oceandoc, I could understand your point that maybe a small % of your students wanted to go into derm. Or ent. Or optho. Or urology. Or ortho. But I think it is a pretty safe assumption that more than 2-3 students in your whole class wanted to go into all of these fields combined.
Take the Hopkins match this year for example. They had zero matches in derm. Based on this info, is it fair to say that match was poor? Of course not. As you said, it's likely that Hopkins just didn't have many people interested in derm this year. But look at their other matches in the next 3 or so most competitive fields. It's stacked. NYCOM just doesn't have a lot of competitive field matches there........I look more at the specialty than the program. And really, there is no such thing as a bad derm match anyways.....
Take the Hopkins match this year for example. They had zero matches in derm. Based on this info, is it fair to say that match was poor? Of course not. As you said, it's likely that Hopkins just didn't have many people interested in derm this year. But look at their other matches in the next 3 or so most competitive fields. It's stacked. NYCOM just doesn't have a lot of competitive field matches there........I look more at the specialty than the program. And really, there is no such thing as a bad derm match anyways.....
wanna_be_do:
I didnt mean to imply that OMM will resurrect the bedridden. All I said was that it was another tool that can help at times. While my official clinical experience is forthcoming, I have countless hours in the clinical setting in a previous "career". OMM is DEFINITELY not the end-all of medicine, it's merely an adjunct modality that may increase a patient's quality of life, as does physical therapy.
After looking at the official match list, the one above isnt exhaustive. It's missing a few places in gen surgery, FP, and peds and some traditional internships as I compare quickly and yeah, the typo regarding NY Hospital. I too wish the NYCOM admin would post it somewhere. I hear a better website is in the works. None-the-less, pretty decent match overall, IMO.
For graduating from medical school tomorrow, what the hell are you doing on SDN at this hour? Go party. Congrats to your class on a great match, even without the derms or ENTs. best of luck.
I didnt mean to imply that OMM will resurrect the bedridden. All I said was that it was another tool that can help at times. While my official clinical experience is forthcoming, I have countless hours in the clinical setting in a previous "career". OMM is DEFINITELY not the end-all of medicine, it's merely an adjunct modality that may increase a patient's quality of life, as does physical therapy.
After looking at the official match list, the one above isnt exhaustive. It's missing a few places in gen surgery, FP, and peds and some traditional internships as I compare quickly and yeah, the typo regarding NY Hospital. I too wish the NYCOM admin would post it somewhere. I hear a better website is in the works. None-the-less, pretty decent match overall, IMO.
For graduating from medical school tomorrow, what the hell are you doing on SDN at this hour? Go party. Congrats to your class on a great match, even without the derms or ENTs. best of luck.
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meanderson...
For the love of god, we're not comparing the NYCOM match list to Hopkins. Try comparing 85% of any MD school's match to Hopkins. Apples and Oranges. I think the point of the entire original post is being lost here. While the OP may have come on too strong, I believe the intent was to show premedical students a bit of reality in what can otherwise be a very skewed picture presented in this digital forum by people without any real experience or authority other than what they read in another thread somewhere. If you want to be a dermatologist at Mayo popping pimples and playing with a magnifying glass your whole life, go for it, I encourage you to go to MD school, for there's more opportunities out there in the allopathic arena. Same goes for opening a Lasix clinic and advertising in the paper for $499 an eye. I'm not trying to belittle these professions, just trying to prove a point that not everyone sees these specialties as the measuring stick. Hence the 97% of everyone else should use their own judgement in measuring the competency of a school's graduates, and should know that the school's USNews Rank doesnt make the doctor and at times it may only give the young doctor a false sense of security, or insecurity.
For the love of god, we're not comparing the NYCOM match list to Hopkins. Try comparing 85% of any MD school's match to Hopkins. Apples and Oranges. I think the point of the entire original post is being lost here. While the OP may have come on too strong, I believe the intent was to show premedical students a bit of reality in what can otherwise be a very skewed picture presented in this digital forum by people without any real experience or authority other than what they read in another thread somewhere. If you want to be a dermatologist at Mayo popping pimples and playing with a magnifying glass your whole life, go for it, I encourage you to go to MD school, for there's more opportunities out there in the allopathic arena. Same goes for opening a Lasix clinic and advertising in the paper for $499 an eye. I'm not trying to belittle these professions, just trying to prove a point that not everyone sees these specialties as the measuring stick. Hence the 97% of everyone else should use their own judgement in measuring the competency of a school's graduates, and should know that the school's USNews Rank doesnt make the doctor and at times it may only give the young doctor a false sense of security, or insecurity.
Oceandoc, of course Hopkins match list is going to beat most all allopathic schools. That's not really the point either. The point is that most average allopathic schools put residents into the specialties that nycom didn't. No, they won't get anywhere near the 15 or so derm residencies(!!) Harvard seems to get every year, but they will get 2-3 derm, 3-4 ent, 4-5 ortho, 1-2 urology, 4-5 optho. That's 15-20 spots. My state school approximates these numbers, and it is hardly an elite allopathic school.
Also, the way in which you characterized opthos and dermatologists was probably offensive to those interested in these fields. Optho interests me, and I don't plan on becoming a lasik machine. Physicians in all specialties are interested in the health of their patients.....
Also, the way in which you characterized opthos and dermatologists was probably offensive to those interested in these fields. Optho interests me, and I don't plan on becoming a lasik machine. Physicians in all specialties are interested in the health of their patients.....
meanderson....
I blatantly said I was only using the derm/optho remarks not to belittle those professions but merely to suggest that 95% of students entering medical school are not interested in those specialties. I have every bit of respect for derm and optho, my best friend is a opthalmology resident and readily admits going into optho for the lifestlye and money. Was it right, that's debatable, but it's the driving force behind the decision for many.
You again dont seem to understand the idea of apples and oranges. No, nycom didnt match dozens into ortho, optho, and derm this year, although past years have seen more graduates in these specialties. However, remember, osteopathic medicine sets out to train a different type of physician, on paper at least, who is a generalist first and a specialist second. Hence, from day one, students are taught primary care medicine with more vigor than an allopathic student. This results in a greater percentage of students entering primary care, thus decreasing the size of the pool wishing to enter the specialty professions. Do you understand? There is a significant selection bias when you compare the two groups blindly. It would be like a professor of literature saying "Wow, only 40 of MIT's thousand graduates this year went into liberal arts, MIT must suck." Students go to D.O. schools for varying reasons, but once there they learn primary care medicine very well. This will naturally push more graduates that direction, but it will also give the students that do choose to specialize a healthy understanding of basic medicine, and there's nothing better than a specialist with a firm appreciation for primary care, IMO.
Take the blinders off for a minute and look past the ENT, Derm, and Ortho. I'm not saying nycom is on Harvard's doorstep, nor are most medical schools in the land, but I bet many allopathic students were a tad surprised by the above list.
I blatantly said I was only using the derm/optho remarks not to belittle those professions but merely to suggest that 95% of students entering medical school are not interested in those specialties. I have every bit of respect for derm and optho, my best friend is a opthalmology resident and readily admits going into optho for the lifestlye and money. Was it right, that's debatable, but it's the driving force behind the decision for many.
You again dont seem to understand the idea of apples and oranges. No, nycom didnt match dozens into ortho, optho, and derm this year, although past years have seen more graduates in these specialties. However, remember, osteopathic medicine sets out to train a different type of physician, on paper at least, who is a generalist first and a specialist second. Hence, from day one, students are taught primary care medicine with more vigor than an allopathic student. This results in a greater percentage of students entering primary care, thus decreasing the size of the pool wishing to enter the specialty professions. Do you understand? There is a significant selection bias when you compare the two groups blindly. It would be like a professor of literature saying "Wow, only 40 of MIT's thousand graduates this year went into liberal arts, MIT must suck." Students go to D.O. schools for varying reasons, but once there they learn primary care medicine very well. This will naturally push more graduates that direction, but it will also give the students that do choose to specialize a healthy understanding of basic medicine, and there's nothing better than a specialist with a firm appreciation for primary care, IMO.
Take the blinders off for a minute and look past the ENT, Derm, and Ortho. I'm not saying nycom is on Harvard's doorstep, nor are most medical schools in the land, but I bet many allopathic students were a tad surprised by the above list.
Well, if most of the students from your school go into primary care, shouldn't we look at where those students match to determine the quality of the list? There are not a lot of primo names there. Here are the 70 students who matched into primary care:
Peds:
LIJ, NY
Good Samaritan, NY (2)
Stony Brook (3)
Suny Downstate (3)
Univ Buffalo
Winthrop Univ Hospital (3)
Internal Medicine:
Beth Israel, New York, NY (4)
George Washington Univ, DC
Hershey, Penn State
Kaiser Perm, CA
Lennox Hill, NY (2)
Loma Linda, CA
LIJ, NY
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, NY (2)
North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset (2)
New York Hospital, NY, NY (6)
St Josephs, AZ
SUNY Stony Brook, NY
Univ of Southern California
Univ of Tennessee, Nashville
UMNDNJ- Newark (2)
UMDNJ- Robert Wood (4)
Univ of Mass, Worcester, MA
Westchester Medical Ctr, NY
Winthrop Univ Hospital, NY (6)
Yale University, New Haven CT (2)
Family Practice:
Good Samaritan, NY
New York United Hospital
Mercy Hospital, PA
St. Claires, NY, NY
Union Hospital, NJ (2)
Northside Hospital, FL
St. Barnabus, NY (3)
St. Josephs, Syracuse NY
Overlook Hospital, NJ (2)
Somerset Med Ctr, NJ
UMDNJ (2)
Univ of Pittsburgh
Peds:
LIJ, NY
Good Samaritan, NY (2)
Stony Brook (3)
Suny Downstate (3)
Univ Buffalo
Winthrop Univ Hospital (3)
Internal Medicine:
Beth Israel, New York, NY (4)
George Washington Univ, DC
Hershey, Penn State
Kaiser Perm, CA
Lennox Hill, NY (2)
Loma Linda, CA
LIJ, NY
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, NY (2)
North Shore Univ Hospitals, Manhasset (2)
New York Hospital, NY, NY (6)
St Josephs, AZ
SUNY Stony Brook, NY
Univ of Southern California
Univ of Tennessee, Nashville
UMNDNJ- Newark (2)
UMDNJ- Robert Wood (4)
Univ of Mass, Worcester, MA
Westchester Medical Ctr, NY
Winthrop Univ Hospital, NY (6)
Yale University, New Haven CT (2)
Family Practice:
Good Samaritan, NY
New York United Hospital
Mercy Hospital, PA
St. Claires, NY, NY
Union Hospital, NJ (2)
Northside Hospital, FL
St. Barnabus, NY (3)
St. Josephs, Syracuse NY
Overlook Hospital, NJ (2)
Somerset Med Ctr, NJ
UMDNJ (2)
Univ of Pittsburgh
I would say more than half those programs are pretty respectable programs. There's certainly programs there which consistently attract students from strong allopathic schools, maybe not Harvard and Stanford, but again, let's put apples with apples.
I'll repeat my question, why are so many premed and allopathic students concerned with this list? Does it threaten you? Surprise you? I agree the original poster was a bit strong in the wording of the original post, but I'm impressed that you had the concern to sit and count the number of D.O. students that went into primary care and to personally rate these programs, most of which you know nothing about minus the fact they dont show up in USNews. Well, "primo name" isnt everything. For example, North Shore University Hospital System, one of NYCOM's main clincal affiliates and a hospital you probably never heard of before if you arent from NY, was ranked the best overall hospital system in the country last year by a patient's advocacy group. The majority of students on that list got their first choice, hence they didnt care about your ranking criteria, or USNews. They worked hard, did well, and now will be entering a field to hopefully to do some good. I hope they lose some sleep tonight knowing that you're not impressed with their competency. I know I will.
I'll repeat my question, why are so many premed and allopathic students concerned with this list? Does it threaten you? Surprise you? I agree the original poster was a bit strong in the wording of the original post, but I'm impressed that you had the concern to sit and count the number of D.O. students that went into primary care and to personally rate these programs, most of which you know nothing about minus the fact they dont show up in USNews. Well, "primo name" isnt everything. For example, North Shore University Hospital System, one of NYCOM's main clincal affiliates and a hospital you probably never heard of before if you arent from NY, was ranked the best overall hospital system in the country last year by a patient's advocacy group. The majority of students on that list got their first choice, hence they didnt care about your ranking criteria, or USNews. They worked hard, did well, and now will be entering a field to hopefully to do some good. I hope they lose some sleep tonight knowing that you're not impressed with their competency. I know I will.
First, way more than 5% of all medical students want to enter very competitive specialties.
But let's get back to the intent of the OP....the title of his thread was "Residency: Your school makes a difference!". His intent was to come over to an pre-allo board and impress future allopathic student's with an osteopathic match list. That's fine and everything, but if the match list is posted in an pre-allo forum, then allopathic standards exist. IOW, the # of derm/optho/ortho/uro/ent residencies is important because that is ONE way the quality of a match list is judged, at least by allopathic standards. Note that my arguments here are in response mainly to the OP.
>>However, remember, osteopathic medicine sets out to train a >>different type of physician, on paper at least, who is a >>generalist first and a specialist second. Hence, from day one, >>students are taught primary care medicine with more vigor >>than an allopathic student. This results in a greater >>percentage of students entering primary care, thus decreasing >>the size of the pool wishing to enter the specialty professions. >>Do you understand? There is a significant selection bias when >>you compare the two groups blindly. It would be like a >>professor
I don't think NYCOM's match list has an unusually high % of primary care matches compared to an allopathic state school's. The main difference is that 15 matches in the most competitive specialties have been replaced with 15 extra matches in anesthesiology, psych, neurology, etc.....
And a quick glance at the pre-osteo and osteopathic student message boards show that many future osteopaths are very intererested in certain fields. Seems almost every other thread is "Can a DO do optho" or something of that nature.
If there was an osteopath school in my region that I liked I wouldn't have any problems applying.
But let's get back to the intent of the OP....the title of his thread was "Residency: Your school makes a difference!". His intent was to come over to an pre-allo board and impress future allopathic student's with an osteopathic match list. That's fine and everything, but if the match list is posted in an pre-allo forum, then allopathic standards exist. IOW, the # of derm/optho/ortho/uro/ent residencies is important because that is ONE way the quality of a match list is judged, at least by allopathic standards. Note that my arguments here are in response mainly to the OP.
>>However, remember, osteopathic medicine sets out to train a >>different type of physician, on paper at least, who is a >>generalist first and a specialist second. Hence, from day one, >>students are taught primary care medicine with more vigor >>than an allopathic student. This results in a greater >>percentage of students entering primary care, thus decreasing >>the size of the pool wishing to enter the specialty professions. >>Do you understand? There is a significant selection bias when >>you compare the two groups blindly. It would be like a >>professor
I don't think NYCOM's match list has an unusually high % of primary care matches compared to an allopathic state school's. The main difference is that 15 matches in the most competitive specialties have been replaced with 15 extra matches in anesthesiology, psych, neurology, etc.....
And a quick glance at the pre-osteo and osteopathic student message boards show that many future osteopaths are very intererested in certain fields. Seems almost every other thread is "Can a DO do optho" or something of that nature.
If there was an osteopath school in my region that I liked I wouldn't have any problems applying.
That's funny, and you don't have to be an MD or a DO to know funny....😀 😀 😀
My reply to this can be seen in the new thread devoted to this topic titled "More on the NYCOM Match list...." Check it out! 😀
Look, NYCOM is a fully-accredited medical school. I have it on good authority that reasonable people choose to go to NYCOM every year over some allopathic schools, just as some students go to allopathic schools over NYCOM. Those people are not crazy to try and weigh the relative merits of the schools because of some perceived emphasis on primary care at osteopathic schools. They are both apples, whether you want to admit it or not. Because some apples have different (better?) tastes doesn't mean they can't be compared.
Wrigley
dr almond, ???? I guess your sense of humor is too subtle for my taste.
I don't see anything related to this or anything else in the other thread.
I don't see anything related to this or anything else in the other thread.
I would have loved to see the responses if the original poster had put up an MD match list...I'm sure that this thread would have been dead a long time ago....
What I hate about SDN is that everyone "jumps" on something someone says...I think Oceandoc has very valid points as do the rest of you...
If anyone learns anything from this post...know that there are many options for residencies (whether you choose allopathic or osteopathic)...just make sure that you go to a school that has great affliations...cuz let's be realistic...it's not all about what you know (because everyone should be graduating with enough education to be a physician)...who you know helps a lot...which I am sure most of you applying have figured out as you are trying to get interviews and letters of rec...you know what I mean!
Keep an open mind...osteopathy...allopathic...NYCOM...Harvard...
Whatever!!!! We are all going to be physicians...be happy with that!
-SexyEgptnDr
What I hate about SDN is that everyone "jumps" on something someone says...I think Oceandoc has very valid points as do the rest of you...
If anyone learns anything from this post...know that there are many options for residencies (whether you choose allopathic or osteopathic)...just make sure that you go to a school that has great affliations...cuz let's be realistic...it's not all about what you know (because everyone should be graduating with enough education to be a physician)...who you know helps a lot...which I am sure most of you applying have figured out as you are trying to get interviews and letters of rec...you know what I mean!
Keep an open mind...osteopathy...allopathic...NYCOM...Harvard...
Whatever!!!! We are all going to be physicians...be happy with that!
-SexyEgptnDr
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But you still went to it, and came back here to leave me a comment! You gotta love it!
And I agree with SexyEgptnDr on a number of things.....
If this was an MD post on an MD site, it would spur NO interest... just ho humm another match.....
And it is all about who you know, even if you did go Ivy....
One thing that would bother me about the DO philosophy is that DO students aren't able to agree amongst themselves on these issues. One group of DO students argues that they prefer the DO philosophy because it does differ and there is more emphasis on primary care. The other group maintains that there are no differences and that DO students are competitive in nearly all allopathic residency programs. My guess is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.....
One definite difference with DO schools is in how they select their students. They seem to put a lot more emphasis on having a good deal of paid clinical experience than MD schools. Just from reading this board, it's apparent that tons of former nurses, PA's, and EMT's attend DO school. DO schools clearly place more emphasis on these things and less on mcat scores. It's actuallly a requirement to have a letter from a physician(preferrably a DO) to matriculate at virtually every DO school.
In my opinion, DO schools are almost exactly like allopathic schools that tend to emphasize primary care. Compare a school like Mercer to a DO school. You'll see the admissions standards are similar, the residency placements are similar, and the emphasis on primary care is similar. And that's not an insult to DO schools.......Mercer is a quality school and I would be happy to go there if that's the way things fall.
One definite difference with DO schools is in how they select their students. They seem to put a lot more emphasis on having a good deal of paid clinical experience than MD schools. Just from reading this board, it's apparent that tons of former nurses, PA's, and EMT's attend DO school. DO schools clearly place more emphasis on these things and less on mcat scores. It's actuallly a requirement to have a letter from a physician(preferrably a DO) to matriculate at virtually every DO school.
In my opinion, DO schools are almost exactly like allopathic schools that tend to emphasize primary care. Compare a school like Mercer to a DO school. You'll see the admissions standards are similar, the residency placements are similar, and the emphasis on primary care is similar. And that's not an insult to DO schools.......Mercer is a quality school and I would be happy to go there if that's the way things fall.
Just for the folks still tuning in that don't currently attend a medical school... I didn't have a letter from a DO and I didn't have a career before entering NYCOM. But many people did fit into either general statement....I wouldn't want a pre-med to see that and think something terrible....all you need if you make it to interview is a great personality and integrity to back your folder.
😎
I have no interest in this back and forth other than the one point of clarification I asked for which was ignored: are any of the six "NY Hospital" matches at NY-Presby? I highly doubt it. There are 0 currently. What annoys me is when people who know better deliberately misrepresent facts. There's a big difference between The New York Hospital on the upper east side and the numerous other hospitals that are part of that network all over the tri-state area -- many of which have FMGs/IMGs in their med programs (read less than competitive), and do not have the quality teaching that NY-Presby offers. I would have a problem if an allo school pulled that pr stunt.
Med schools and individuals can pull the same garbage by listing various big name systems/schools with hi quality/very competitive residencies, when the hospital/program in question is a small hospital in a community an hour or two away from the main hospital with lesser standards.
Get your facts straight and be honest.
Iron Horse-
My comments were about the immature and impulsive reactions of some of the individuals posting...it has nothing to do with the match list.
I, for the record, don't believe that a match list of a previous class will dictate where I go....so, whether someone wanted to end up at an inner-city hospital or a hospital in the boonies is up to them...that's what they chose to apply and interview at...and that's what you see on a match list.
I already have an idea of where I want to do my residency...but I am not going to go searching for a school that has had people go there before....I, on the other hand, use my people skills...I already have a contact at that hospital and they are expecting that I will be doing a few of my elective rotations at that hospital. That's what it is about...communication...they know I'm coming, now I gotta prove myself....and that wouldn't matter whether I went to Harvard or some school in the boonies.
I just think it's funny...ever since I decided to be pre-med, I found this certain kind of "attitude" in the air about premeds...always caring what others are doing...always feeling like you are in competition with your neighbor...it's disgusting...and to see that it continues through medical school is sad...especially when in the end, your patient probably wont even care or know where you went to school and did your residency (unless you have your diploma hanging up in every room).
People need to get over this BS...everyone should be informed of match lists...so you can be happy for your fellow classmates of their accomplishments...and maybe find inspiration...
So, remember, before you trash a match list...remember that you are trashing 100+ people that have worked their butts off for the passed 4 years...and they are happy where they are...it's called being "Respectful".
SexyEgptnDr
My comments were about the immature and impulsive reactions of some of the individuals posting...it has nothing to do with the match list.
I, for the record, don't believe that a match list of a previous class will dictate where I go....so, whether someone wanted to end up at an inner-city hospital or a hospital in the boonies is up to them...that's what they chose to apply and interview at...and that's what you see on a match list.
I already have an idea of where I want to do my residency...but I am not going to go searching for a school that has had people go there before....I, on the other hand, use my people skills...I already have a contact at that hospital and they are expecting that I will be doing a few of my elective rotations at that hospital. That's what it is about...communication...they know I'm coming, now I gotta prove myself....and that wouldn't matter whether I went to Harvard or some school in the boonies.
I just think it's funny...ever since I decided to be pre-med, I found this certain kind of "attitude" in the air about premeds...always caring what others are doing...always feeling like you are in competition with your neighbor...it's disgusting...and to see that it continues through medical school is sad...especially when in the end, your patient probably wont even care or know where you went to school and did your residency (unless you have your diploma hanging up in every room).
People need to get over this BS...everyone should be informed of match lists...so you can be happy for your fellow classmates of their accomplishments...and maybe find inspiration...
So, remember, before you trash a match list...remember that you are trashing 100+ people that have worked their butts off for the passed 4 years...and they are happy where they are...it's called being "Respectful".
SexyEgptnDr
Iron Horse...
That correction was made a page back. I imagine it was originally a typo, because after I noticed it I looked at the official match list on paper, the rest is accurate, minus a few left off in peds, FP, PM&R, FP, and anesthesia from my quick glance. I dont know who typed the list, but yes, they should correct it.
That correction was made a page back. I imagine it was originally a typo, because after I noticed it I looked at the official match list on paper, the rest is accurate, minus a few left off in peds, FP, PM&R, FP, and anesthesia from my quick glance. I dont know who typed the list, but yes, they should correct it.
