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Residency?

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by Athena112, Apr 24, 2002.

  1. Athena112

    Athena112 Junior Member
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    I am having a very difficult time deciding where to go to medical school. One of the things that concerns me are my chances at getting into good residencies depending on where I decide to go. In your opinion, do residencies really consider where you went to med school a lot? What are they looking for? If I want to specialize hopefully in oncology, hematology or infectious diseases...does it really matter where I go to school? I am trying to decide between a Top 5 school and my state school (which is in the Top 50, is very focused on primary care, and is far cheaper). This is troubling me a lot and I really value any thoughts and opinions that you can share with me.
     
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  3. Ice Man

    Ice Man Member
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    When I asked the Program directors that I followed. (At some good spots) They either said one of two things. "I rarely comes up," or "It doesn't matter, I would rather have a 235 from school x than a 215 from Hopkins." Having said that, if you are on equal footing, which is rare (due to subjective interview) according to PD's, you will "probably" win out.
     
  4. Sevo

    Sevo Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Athena112:
    <strong>I am having a very difficult time deciding where to go to medical school. One of the things that concerns me are my chances at getting into good residencies depending on where I decide to go. In your opinion, do residencies really consider where you went to med school a lot? What are they looking for? If I want to specialize hopefully in oncology, hematology or infectious diseases...does it really matter where I go to school? I am trying to decide between a Top 5 school and my state school (which is in the Top 50, is very focused on primary care, and is far cheaper). This is troubling me a lot and I really value any thoughts and opinions that you can share with me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Take a look at the recent senior year match lists for the two schools, if you can get a hold of them, and compare.

    That will clarify things more for you than any sort of bickering here.
     
  5. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    The other posters are correct. The school you attend doesn't make a significant difference for *most* residencies and in *most* situations. The residencies in which you are interested are not terribly, for the most part, competitive and I would imagine the difference between a Top 5 school and a Top 50 school would NOT be significant. What is more important are your board scores, LORs, etc.

    IMHO, you would be better off going to the state school, saving yourself a heap of cash and some stress. Best of luck.
     
  6. EidolonSix

    EidolonSix Member
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    Apply, interview, and see where you like....and don't forget to take advantage of in-state tuition if possible. Personalities amongst people attending certain schools.....differ considerably.

    As for residency competitiveness....unless your ego demands you go to Johns Hopkins,UCSF, etc. for your residency, you will likely be looked upon as equal to your peers from more well known schools. Good docs don't become good just because they go to a top name residency...a fallacy many people fall into. Only the people who go to (and pay for) an Ivy league medical school believe that they are more prepared than those from a respectable state institution. The fact of the matter is...most curriculums are geared towards teaching USMLE material, making it much more standardized between institutions. The major differences probably lie in the amount of clinical exposure during you first 2 years and the amount of exposure plus autonomy in your next two years.

    As for US News rankings...don't bother. Much of the criteria used are recycled from year to year and based more on research dollars and prestige....which although are bragging rights....do not make for the best medical education.

    Remember....you enter medical school at the bottom of a very tall hierarchy, which you will fight for years to climb. The true amount of money and time actually invested in you by your institution...as a medical student is significant, and most institutions take pride in helping you and watching you succeed. They take pride in sending graduates to good residency programs. You may think you've come a long way....but you soon realize your still at the beginning.
     
  7. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    Does your state residency (as in you live there) affect you ability to get into a program in a different city? For instance, i am looking at the U of Minnesota's match list. Many stay in-state. I think I would like to go to california for my residency and only a few from minnesota go there. i am wondering if that's personal choice, or if it's just hard to get cali residencies?
     
  8. Winged Scapula

    Winged Scapula Cougariffic!
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oldman:
    <strong>Does your state residency (as in you live there) affect you ability to get into a program in a different city? For instance, i am looking at the U of Minnesota's match list. Many stay in-state. I think I would like to go to california for my residency and only a few from minnesota go there. i am wondering if that's personal choice, or if it's just hard to get cali residencies?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Both. California residencies are by and large more difficult to get because of the environmental niceties and Minnesotans tend to stay close to home.

    I know of no state preference used in regard to choosing residents although some programs, especially those training primary care physicians, may prefer individuals who plan on STAYING in the area after graduation. However, IMHO going to medical school out of state would not significantly decrease your chances of getting a residency in California.
     
  9. Athena112

    Athena112 Junior Member
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    Thank you all for responding to my questions. Your comments have helped a lot and I really appreciate it. After much thought, I have decided to attend my state school. I think that it is the best school for me. Thanks again for all your help! :)
     
  10. I recommend going to the top 5 school, if for no other reason than if, in the future, you don't get the residency of your choice after going to the top 5, you can't blame it on the bossa nova. If you go to the state school, though, you may later look back and wonder what might have been.

    (Plus, the people at top schools are smarter, more interesting, and will go more places in the long run. This is GENERALLY true. Yes, some state schoolers will end up at Mass General and win Nobels in Medicine, Peace, and Econ, and some Harvard grads will drop out of life and end up winos, but GENERALLY speaking, the contacts you make at a top 5 school will prove more beneficial in the long run. That, and you'll have more interesting conversations with smarter people at top schools. That's been my experience, anyway.)

    Also, going to a great med school helps a ton with competitive residencies. It's true that the fields you're interested in are not especially competitive, but they are competitive in the state of California, and top programs in any field, be it Family Med or Psych, are always competitive. Wouldn't you rather have the luxury of doing heme/onc wherever you like, rather than having to settle?

    Sure, a 240 on Step I with a 4.0 GPA from a state school is better than a 205 and a 2.0 from Hopkins (duh; the same logic applies to applying to med school from undergrad), but, assuming that you're going to have the same numbers either way, you're much better off going to the big-name place. In fact, at some big-name med schools, almost no one gets a C in any class, or the classes are pass-fail, while some state schools for unexplained reasons take it upon themselves to torture their students when it comes to grades. So your numbers might actually turn out better from a top 5 school.

    Finally, residency programs in California - and most other "hot/cool/hip" states, like Hawaii, Arizona, and Florida - are notorious for favoring applicants from their own state. If you've lived in Cali your entire life but go to med school in, say, Kentucky, you'll be all right applying to Cali residencies. But if you're not from Cali, then going to a Cali school can make all the difference. This, at least, was the experience of many of my friends.

    Just my observations.

    <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  11. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kimberli Cox:
    <strong>The other posters are correct. The school you attend doesn't make a significant difference for *most* residencies and in *most* situations. The residencies in which you are interested are not terribly, for the most part, competitive and I would imagine the difference between a Top 5 school and a Top 50 school would NOT be significant. What is more important are your board scores, LORs, etc.

    IMHO, you would be better off going to the state school, saving yourself a heap of cash and some stress. Best of luck.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I largely agree with this advice. One caveat to these suggestions though, you are very likely to change your mind during the course of medical school. It is very difficult to know what you want to do before having broad exposure on a clinical level. I still feel this way, and have already matched into residency.

    Having said that, medical education in the US is excellent, and the difference between the number one school and the last is quite slim. As someone who went to the big ticket/more expensive school, I can tell you that I regret terribly not saving tens of thousands at a state school. Students in any of these medical schools get into the whole gamut of residencies.
     
  12. LaCirujana

    LaCirujana Smoking Gun
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    Ditto Klebsiella--
    As one who chose to minimize debt and DID go to the state school, I can attest to the fact that you can absolutely get a top-notch residency out of a "lesser" medical school. And not just in surgery. Members of my class matched in highly competitive specialties at some of the top programs in the country. Sorry davidgreen, but your comments smack of elitism and reflect a lack of knowledge about a significant porportion of state medical schools.
     
  13. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also, going to a great med school helps a ton with competitive residencies. It's true that the fields you're interested in are not especially competitive, but they are competitive in the state of California, and top programs in any field, be it Family Med or Psych, are always competitive. Wouldn't you rather have the luxury of doing heme/onc wherever you like, rather than having to settle? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This advice is utter nonsense and pure rubbish. I am in one of those so called 'prestigious' schools, and I have compared lists from our school to state schools costing a fraction, and the results are quite similar. The advantage an ivy league brings to the table come application time is slim to none for comparable students. If you do well IN ANY US med school, you will be as competitive as anyone in getting a choice Residency.
     
  14. P Diddy

    P Diddy california lover
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    [/QUOTE]This advice is utter nonsense and pure rubbish. I am in one of those so called 'prestigious' schools, and I have compared lists from our school to state schools costing a fraction, and the results are quite similar. The advantage an ivy league brings to the table come application time is slim to none for comparable students. If you do well IN ANY US med school, you will be as competitive as anyone in getting a choice Residency.[/QB][/QUOTE]

    While David Green's post might smack of elitism, this post smacks of delusion. I compared the match lists from my school, a state school, and the lists from Cornell (which are online, btw, as are NYU's). The students from Cornell matched at bigger 'name' programs in every specialty (MGH, Stanford, etc) and also matched more people in the more competitive specialties (Derm, Radiology, Ortho, etc).

    Now, I am not saying that one should aim to go to a 'name' institution. I am not saying that a person from a 'lower ranked'(and I find the US News rankings a bit ridiculous) school cannot match in a more competitive program. In fact, I am going to a prestigious program from a 'lower ranked' school. But I'm an exception in my class. Had I gone to a big name school I probably wouldn't have had to work so hard to match where I did.

    I don't think it's right that going to a 'top 5' school should confer an advantage to an applicant, but the fact is that it does (else why would people go to top 5 schools?). What you have to determine is: A. how much of an advantage the medical school you go to will carry in helping you attain the residency of your choice and B. whether the difference in cost is worth that advantage. You can go to a 'lower ranked' school and go to MGH - when I interviewed there (for IM) I was pleased to see how many 'lower ranked' schools were represented. I also noted the overwhelming amount of people from Harvard, UCSF, Duke and other 'elite' medical schools.

    The best advice given above was to check the rank lists of your prospective medical schools - that will be the best marker for the relative proportion of candidates in the class who did what you want to do and went where you want to go. And for the person who wondered if you can get to cali from a state school- yes, you can. I'm going there now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  15. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    P. Diddy,

    I have been called delusional before, no offense taken. I hope you wont take offense if I state your message is delusional in nature.

    Your comments ring hollow as they fail to look at the whole picture. Acceptance to more prestigious medical schools generally requires students who are able to perform well on standardized tests like the MCAT, USMLE, as well as achieving the highest possible grades. The end result is that bigger names like Cornell attract students who consistently have stronger numbers than state schools. The fact of the matter is that these students, as a whole, may perform slightly better on the USMLE, reflecting the minor discrepencies that you have cited.

    Additionally, many of the ivy league institutions have 'contacts' in the field that make gaining interviews at other big names that much easier. The school you come from has nothing to do with it. Trust me, I went through the process at one of these big names.

    I have several friends who opted to for the more economical state school, and with a little bit more determination, they scored residencies at top programs in every single field.

    99% of PD could care less where you come from if your board scores and CV are compelling. The name of the school is usually not even considered.

    The bottom line is that the name of the school has next to nothing to do with where you go for residency. YOU have everything to do with where you go.
     
  16. P Diddy

    P Diddy california lover
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    Klebsiella said:

    'Additionally, many of the ivy league institutions have 'contacts' in the field that make gaining interviews at other big names that much easier. The school you come from has nothing to do with it. Trust me, I went through the process at one of these big names.'

    Your prose is not clear. Are you saying that ivy league medical schools make it easier for their students to receive interviews from other big name schools? If so, that would be supporting my point, not yours.

    'I have several friends who opted to for the more economical state school, and with a little bit more determination, they scored residencies at top programs in every single field.'

    This is my point. Your friends required 'a little bit more determination' to score residencies at top programs. Whether that means studying harder for Step I, making sure they were top 10 in their class rather than the top 20, or kissing more ass, the upshot is that they had to work harder. Now, those who get into more prestigious medical schools may have had to work harder to get there, but that's beside the point. The original poster has already been accepted to a 'top 5 school'. Now she she has to decide how hard she wants to work in medical school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
     
  17. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    P Diddy,

    I think we are closer in thinking than once thought, delusional charges notwithstanding.

    Here is my point: The actual school you go to matters little in obtaining the Residency of your choice. The name will not get you the interview or slot, save an exceptionally small number of programs that rub their nose at non-ivy league schools. At the same time, there is an equal number of PD's that simply cant stand the mentality in the ivy league and will be prejudice the other way.

    Two students with identical CV's are just as likely to obtain a residency slot at a given program regardless of the school (provided it's a US MD program)of attendance. What I'm saying is that at IVY league, there are slightly more students with more impressive CV's. Additionally, there is a slightly better connection network (which I have utilized) at Ivy league programs. This doesn't translate into a meaningful advantage for a particular student. The student with the stellar CV is more likely to be coming from an ivy league program.

    I went to the name brand University, and am really feeling the burden of the debt I have incurred. There was very little talk about certain fields like Peds, where the salary would pose a severe financial hardship. I know I would have excelled at any Medical school I went to, and with the same determination, I'm certain I would have achieved the same level of success.

    I think you are blurring the distinction between the school and student. I have worked damn hard these past 4 years (ok maybe only the first three :) ) I think it's assanine to attribute my success to the name of my school. Hogwash.

    P.S. I went to the match list site, and largely the schools have similar numbers of students entering each respective school. One thing that is lost on a lot of students, and I hope you will consider, is that many of the middle tier schools and state schools have expertise in specific fields that is beyond what an ivy league has. Additionally, certain schools have an abundance of slots in highly sought out fields like dermatology. This provides those students with advantages that other schools might not have.

    P.S.S I think it's funny that a state school student drools over the ivy, and an ivy student craves statehood. Perhaps it's just a case of things being greener on the other side:)
     
  18. tulanestudent

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    Here's another point - the biggest name residencies may not necessarily be the best training opportunities, so you might not want all those big names by the end of med school anyway.

    Sometimes the big name residencies don't let you get much autonomy or hands-on experience till senior years in residency. For instance, at some programs the surgeons aren't allowed to do much more than students in the OR till their PGY3 year b/c all the prestigious attendings want their hands in there. At other programs, which may not be thought of by pre-meds as "top notch", throw you into the fire much earlier, so that when you get done you actually know how to DO stuff. Plus some of the big names are big names for research, which means you will be expected to spend significant time on research, wheather you like research or not.

    Most patients couldn't care less where you went to school or residency - the fact that you are a doctor is enough for most of them. The important thing is have you been trained well to care for patients.

    Having said all that, I am also one who spent the money and wishes now I'd looked around at more state schools and saved the money. I don't think med school name matters much in relation to the price difference. By the way, I chose based more on which school I liked better, not on the name difference when looking at med schools.
     
  19. Athena112

    Athena112 Junior Member
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    Thanks for all of the replies. The difference in cost each year between my state school and the top 5 school is ~$27,000. I just don't know whether or not going to the more prestigious school is worth all of the money that I will be paying. I guess from what I am hearing is that it is not really worth it.
     
  20. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Klebsiella:
    <strong>
    What I'm saying is that at IVY league, there are slightly more students with more impressive CV's. The student with the stellar CV is more likely to be coming from an ivy league program.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do you suppose that is, Klebsiella? And if this is true, then are not PDs perhaps slightly biased in favor of Ivy League applicants?

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Klebsiella also wrote:

    I went to the name brand University ... and I think it's assanine to attribute my success to the name of my school. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, but I can't help myself:
    It's hard to believe that you attended a "name brand University" considering you can't even spell "asinine". The word has nothing to do with "ass", as you've spelled it.

    P Diddy is right. My elitism notwithstanding, going to a big-name place can bring mucho rewards. I am at a decent-but-not-great state medical school, and I cry every March when I see our senior match list because it pales in comparison to the match lists from UPenn, Columbia, and Wash U. Whether the school's rep gets a student into a competitive residency or whether it's simply a case of a higher caliber of students at the famous schools, no one can argue that students from these schools do only "slightly better". Stop deluding yourself. These guys kick the **** out of state schoolers (UMich, UCSF, et al notwithstanding).

    A word on elitism:
    In my experience, all medical schools have a fair share smart kids. All of 'em. Most kids at most med schools are smart, in fact. The difference is that the average student at an Ivy League med school can actually read and write his own name, while most state schoolers are lucky to get past P in the alphabet. Honestly, even the smart guys at state schools who get 250+ on Step I can't read a nonmedical book to save their lives, can't discuss intelligently anything outside of medicine. State schoolers, in my experience, even the better ones, are far more likely to be pure memorizing machines with no native cleverness or wit, or out-and-out one-dimensional science geeks.

    To put it into numbers, if you're a stat man:
    Your typical state schooler who knocks down a 250+ on Step I probably only got a lousy 1200 or so (if that) on the SAT and a 29 on the MCAT (11s in the sciences, 7 verbal) whereas your typical Ivy Leaguer who throws down a 250 (or even 240) on Step I undoubtedly uncorked a 1460 or better on the SAT and got a 36 MCAT in his sleep.

    Remember, I am only speaking of averages, more likely scenarios, etc. Undoubtedly, there are exceptions to prove the rule. I'm a state schooler myself. Therefore, knowing only this bit of information, one would not be a fool to surmise that I probably did not do as well in high school, on the SAT, in undergrad, or on the MCAT as Klebsiella did, since he's at a big-ticket institution. I freely admit this.

    How much this affects one's shot at residency is a different discussion altogether that we (present company included) have beaten to death. This is simply my four cents on so-called elitism. I, for one, happen to enjoy more the company of the intellectually well-rounded to the intellectually square and one-dimensional. Yes, I am an elitist. I also prefer dating pretty women to ugly ones. Elitist again. I'm not shallow, though, b/c I prefer smart girls to dumb ones. I suppose I'm doubly elitist: only smart and pretty girls will do for me. No surprise, then, with my elitist and choosy nature - to say nothing of my self-absorption - that I sit at home alone most Saturday nights reading Proust and wondering why no one ever calls.

    <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
     
  21. mma

    mma Senior Member
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    When deciding where to go to school, I spoke with a friend who is a resident at a Harvard affiliate. His take on the top school vs. very good school for much less money was this: the top school is an investment and one that is better made by a less confident student in this situation. (Unless, of course, the top school has everything you are looking for in a medical school even WITHOUT the name--the perfect curriculum for you, the best location, the most relevant opportunities. In this case, the top school would be the only way to go.) His explanation was "the students at Harvard who are great were great before they came to Harvard and would be great anywhere. Many of the others are flaming idiots who will match well just because they are from HMS." So, yes, the school's name does give you an advantage, but if you would be "great anywhere," it is an advantage that is not worth the price. (Again, this is unless this top school fulfills all curricular, social, geographic, research, etc. desires.)

    That being said, it is still a tough choice. Good luck.

    mma
     
  22. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
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    I'm sure i'll start a fight w/ my opinion, but I completely disagree with Davidgreen about his opinion about who goes to these medical schools. I have friends at ivy league and non-ivy undergrad and medical institutions. In my opinion, a good number of science geeks do go to the Ivy med schools b/c all they do is study for the MCAT and do stuff for their app. Though, I'm sure there are people like that at all med schools. However, I've have noticed that at ivy schools, students tend to be hypercompetitive ultra type A personalities, while at less elite schools at least some of the students are more laid back.

    As far as the whole ivy league or not thing, it depends on what you want to do. Do you want that top residency position or a tough specialty, then go for the ivy. If you just want to be a doctor, enter a primary care field, or non-competitive specialty then save your money and go to the state school, you'll still be a doctor.
     
  23. intern in waiting

    intern in waiting Junior Member
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    hey davgreen
    your rite, I scored +250 on step and +270 on step II and I'm dumm as a rock
    ps I go to a privite med school
     
  24. squeek

    squeek Senior Member
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    I haven't applied to residencies yet, but I can comment on the type of students in an Ivy League medical school (at least in my class).

    I came from a non-ivy undergrad, and chose to attend Cornell because I didn't have any state options due to state residency issues (actually, growing up in Alaska, I didn't even know that Cornell was Ivy League until I applied there, if you can believe that). In addition, my husband is a graduate student in New York city.

    My experience has been this: the majority (although not all) of my classmates have wealthy parents who put them in prep school at the age of 3. They attended prep schools all througout elementary and high schools. They attended rigorous SAT prep courses. They then attended Ivy League undergraduate institutions. They then were accepted into their respective Ivy League medical school institutions. I now think that the Ivy League is ridiculously inbred, and I'm going to leave it as fast as possible once I graduate.

    I, on the other hand, was lucky to graduate high school without getting pregnant (which is what happened to a large portion of my high school classmates). I attended a very small, very unknown school for undergraduate (the kind where people say "Huh? Where's that?"). To be honest, I think the only reason I got into Cornell is the diversity factor--I'm from Alaska, and there aren't all that many Alaskans in New York City.

    My opinion at this point, after two years of Ivy League education, is that Ivy Leaguers are NOT any more intelligent than state school students. In fact, I've been quite disappointed at the general lack of creative thought exhibited by MOST medical students I've met, although many of them are very nice people. Also, I've been appalled at how much these people complain about EVERYTHING--it's as if they expect life to be handed to them on a gilded, ruby-encrusted platter. I now think that the Ivy League is simply a self-sustaining machine, perpetuated by parents who train their children to be good at taking tests.

    My point is this--many Ivy League students have been prepped for this their entire life, and thus they don't like to work very hard (again, not all, but a lot more than I expected).

    Yes, perhaps Ivy League medical graduates do have more connections, etc...but it's usually with other Ivy League schools, and it's very much a "who you know" sort of thing. Granted, my education thus far has been decent, and I've met a lot of nice people, but I think an Ivy League education is only important if you want to get into the Ivy League machine for residency, your career, etc.

    Just my two cents. :)
     
  25. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    David Green,

    Most of what you write is parable based solely on one person's experience: Your own.

    Your ode to elitism is absolute unadulterated rubbish. Take it from someone who creamed the MCATS and both steps of the USMLE. There are students like me in every school.

    I find your deragory stereotype of ivy league schools insulting, and absolutely wrong. Take it from someone who actually goes to one, and not someone peering in with jealous eyes. There aint much elitist about my school except it's name. It's fools with your mentality that perpetuate this nonsense.

    Your rebuttal reads like a manifest by an uninformed premed student. It's as if you haven't spent any time in medical school at all. To spend 4 years in advanced training, and to come out of it with such poor insight into medical training says more about how shallow your vision really is.

    I have trained in top tier schools, ivy league programs, and ivy league medical school, and I can tell you that much of the nonsense you would have us believe is simply that; nonsense.

    Another reason I almost decided not to go to an ivy league med school was to escape the rampant bafoonery I saw in the typical ivy league candidate. It's funny, many of the attributes you atribute to name brand institutions I see in every single state school in the country.

    I would have gotten an excellent education, and scored just as a prestigious residency had I gone to one of this country's outstanding state schools. And I wouldn't be carting around the prohibitive debt that I have no amassed. I only wish there was someone to give me a quick swift kick in the pants four years ago.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It's hard to believe that you attended a "name brand University" considering you can't even spell "asinine". The word has nothing to do with "ass", as you've spelled it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps I should spend extra time editing my posts so I don't attract more sophomoric and cynical barbs by a wholly uninformed member. Nah, it's way to amusing to hear you rant about spelling and the higher value of elitism.

    Hogwash

    Get over yourself
     
  26. P Diddy

    P Diddy california lover
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    All this talk about elitism got me thinking about the difference between undergrad and medical school. Specifically, I wondered if there's a difference in student body intellect between elite undergraduate institutions and elite medical schools. My view, simply put, is yes. Relatively. :confused:

    The real draw of going to to an elite undergrad institution like Harvard is in being surrounded by brilliant students who are brilliant in many different disciplines. The person sitting on your left in class may be an amazing composer, while the person to your right may have written an incredible computer program, while the person behind you may be a published poet (you, however, if you're like me, will be drooling on your notebook thinking of Jessica Alba). Pretty much every school has brilliant composers and artists; not many schools have the _depth_ of talent in their student body that Harvard or Stanford do (much of this has to do with money).

    At elite medical schools, I think as a general rule the students are more intelligent than at other medical schools, much as is the case in the undergrad landscape. But there's a difference. First, the gap in intelligence between the average students at an elite vs non-elite _medical_ school is reduced when compared to the respective _undergrad_ institutions. This stems from the fact that everyone jumps through the same hoops to get into medical school - the bar is raised. It's mostly a statistical point, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me intuitively that the standard deviation in intelligence decreases when one focuses on a smaller subset of students who have achieved a certain set of criteria (in this case, admission to medical school). Thus I feel that the difference between the student bodies at the 1st and 125th ACGME accredited medical schools is smaller that the difference between the student bodies at Harvard undergrad and Sawgrass community college extension school(I made up Sawgrass so no particular state's denizen would be offended. I like to imagine that it's in Arkansas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Perhaps this is an obvious point. In fact, one may take this line of thinking further and argue that the difference in student body intelligence between a top state school and an ivy league is virtually nil.

    My second assertion is that the even while the students at an 'elite' medical school may be smarter IN GENERAL than those at some 'non-elite 'schools, the scope of their brilliance is diminished. As some posters on this thread have lamented, there's a lack of intellectual diversity in medical school. Not surprising, right, since this is a self-selecting group that has chosen to enter a certain profession? In that respect, at least, medical students are like-minded, and it's not such a far fetched assertion to say that medical students are like-minded in other respects as well. Factor in the time constraints, and one is left with a population that, while intellectually strong, tends toward the monolithic.

    So that's the long, drawn out explanation for why I think it's more valuable to go to an elite undergrad institution that an elite medical school (doesn't mean everyone SHOULD go to an elite undergrad institution). I do think it's easier to pick your slot when you go to an elite med school, but anyone can go to a competitive program if they work their ass off at a weaker program. Undergrad's where many people choose their path, and that's why I feel surrounding oneself with intellectual strength and diversity is important.

    On another note, what Proust are you reading, davidgreen? I've hear 'The remembrance of things past' is a good read - are you reading in the original french? I just finished Slaughterhouse Five, which was ok, but am continually re-reading The Stranger by Camus (at least my 10th time through) and highly recommend it.
     
  27. Klebsy,

    I didn't find my characterization of Ivy League med schools a derogatory or insulting stereotype, as you wrote. I said that Ivy Leaguers tend to be smarter, more well-rounded, etc. If only people would insult me this way.

    Perhaps I am someone peering in with jealous eyes, as you suggest, but I'm hardly an outsider to the Ivy world. I got my bachelor's at Harvard (we call them ABs, not BAs, there) and my masters there, as well. I was accepted to three Ivy League med schools, plus Stanford, Wash U, and Duke med schools. I choose to attend my state school, however, to be near two family relatives who are very ill.

    I do not regret my decision for one moment. If, however, everyone I knew were healthy and my decision were to be made strictly on the basis of academics and strategic career self-interest, I would have chosen one of those top schools instead.

    Round III:
    It's one thing to make a typo, as when you typed "no" for "now". That doesn't demonstrate stupidity. But "bafoonery" for "buffoonery", "deragory" for "derogatory" and "assanine" for "asinine" are not a mere slip of the fingers; they are symptomatic of sheer moronicity (a new word) and not of someone who doesn't "edit [his] messages", as you feebly tried to explain.

    I sit around anxiously awaiting your next messages, as they will no doubt provide more amusing examples of an illiterate Ivy Leaguer; you, Klebsiella, are the exception to my rule.

    ciao
     
  28. squeek

    squeek Senior Member
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    P Diddy, I appreciated your post. Very thoughtful, lacking "barbs," and of a quality not often seen on SDN. By the way, I am presently in the beginning third of "Remembrance of Things Past," although I can't claim to be reading it in the "original French." Someday, perhaps, but my free time in medical school is taken up with painting and not acquisition of new languages. :)It is, however, beautifully written thus far.

    Regarding diversity in medical school, you are right to say that medical school "tends toward monolithic." However, I was suprised by this tendency, due to the extreme emphasis admissions committes--and medical schools as institutions--place on the "integration of art and science." After my humble first two years, I have come to the conclusion that this phrase is simply propaganda, and nothing more. I have yet to see (at least in my institution) a true integration of art and science (being both an artist and, in some regards, a scientist myself), and it is discouraging. I had high hopes of meeting like-minded individuals when I entered school, but such hopes have been diminished, much to my chagrin and loss of idealism. Perhaps I simply expected too much.
     
  29. Ice Man

    Ice Man Member
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    It is a sad world when we are judged by where we go to school. "Ivy league students are more well rounded than other students".....please. They ain't all that. They are no different than anyone else. Remember their $hit stinks too.
     
  30. nitro girl

    nitro girl Junior Member
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    my own observations based on my time here in a private school and my friends who matched this year and previous years:

    people in med school can be interesting, however, ivy league folks, much like the rest of the world, can be down-right boring too. In general I have been dissapointed in the amount of diversity med school people have in their opinions and attitudes. ivy league or not. one exception has been some of my friends from Stanford, but Im biased i guess... and I dig on a boy from harvard (but only because he rides a skateboard..oops)

    On other things- if you want to go to a prestigous program for residency rotate there. get to know the program, get to know the people in the program and have a positive impression before you even submit residency apps., additionally, use your alumni lists. nothing appeals more to other docs than students coming from a school they attended. Use these biases to your advantage.

    As far as cally goes...yes its penetrable. yes, you have to work hard to get there. rotate in hospitals you are interested in, do research, possibly in the same area of interest that your coveted residency program is interested in. At your interview you can talk about that very topic and wow the folks with your obscene amount of knowlege in that field instead of just how wonderful your boards scores are. Cally specifics...do you know spanish? maybe you should learn it.

    no Im not kidding.

    And of course, do well on boards, be a decent person whom the nurses and staff like and get honors grades. And lastly, have a hobby. for gods sake...have more than just medicine to talk about.

    my two cents. best of luck
     
  31. idiot

    idiot Member
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    DGreen-

    Why did you indicate the U of Alabama as your undergraduate institution on your profile - since you earned your AB (not BA) from Harvard?
     
  32. Sanman

    Sanman O.G.
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    GOOD DETECTIVE WORK IDIOT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  33. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    Idiot said:

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> DGreen-

    Why did you indicate the U of Alabama as your undergraduate institution on your profile - since you earned your AB (not BA) from Harvard?
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Apparently, this degenerate personality is living his/her dreams on this bulletin board, instead of earning them through diligence and smarts, both glaringly absent from his/her online personality. Is your life (Dgreen) so pathetic that you must impersonate and misrepresent yourself on a student doctor bulletin board? I wont bother edittingg my posts, so you feel as if you have some role in this community, even if it is Klebsiella's personal editor.

    Good grief charlie brown, another complete fraud.
     
  34. Goofy

    Goofy Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by idiot:
    <strong>DGreen-

    Why did you indicate the U of Alabama as your undergraduate institution on your profile - since you earned your AB (not BA) from Harvard?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Idiot,

    I love your moniker <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Unfortunately it more aptly aplies to others in this thread :)
     

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