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I was wondering what are my chances of getting a residency if I have a 2.5 gpa and have not passed part 1 boards.
residency
- Thread starter thedenisin
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Your grade point average although not good can be offset by a good interview. If the program feels you are a good fit, have a good clinical thought process, and they can work with you, then you have a shot. Most of us who have been involved in residency selection know that poor grades do not always mean a bad resident or future clinician. In fact, some I have interviewed with a 4.0 lacked common sense, had poor social skills, or were arrogant. The problem for you will be if both you and a top notch student have a good interview the better student will most likely be chosen since they have proven their work ethic.
Your real problem is the failure of the national boards part one. Many states can not grant you a license and therefore you can not even do a residency if selected. IMO the schools should not allow someone to progress until they pass part one into the clinical years. When they do they set up a situation where a student may graduate receive a DPM but since they didn't pass part one or two either can't get a residency or get a state license.
My advice: pass those boards whatever it takes.
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I will basically echo most of podfather's comments which are very accurate.
Naturally, it never hurts to have excellent grades, but unfortunately I have also interviewed and witnessed many students/residents that looked great on "paper" but had absolutely no ability to use their hands, could not communicate with patients, colleagues or staff and often only saw things as black and white. They were often able to regurgitate facts and details, but were not able to integrate that information.
When I was an examiner for the ABPS exam, the exam often involved some form of radiographic interpretation for "points to pass". On several occassions, these "top students" interpreted the films by giving me many esoteric facts and details that did not correlate clinically with the case, but did not see an obvious fracture that a typical 5th grade student would find. They were so busy looking for that one in a thousand anomaly, they missed the simple pathology.
These of course are exceptions, and there are many excellent and brilliant students/residents that have worked hard for many years and have the grades to prove that hard work.
But my point is that just because your GPA is mediocre does not mean many residency directors would eliminate you as a candidate. But you must obviously compensate for that lower GPA by being an excellent clinician, having excellent hands, having the ability to integrate information and correlate the information, working hard and having the ability to communicate well and work well with others.
However, it's all a moot point if you can not pass the boards. That must be your only concern at this point. Good luck.
Naturally, it never hurts to have excellent grades, but unfortunately I have also interviewed and witnessed many students/residents that looked great on "paper" but had absolutely no ability to use their hands, could not communicate with patients, colleagues or staff and often only saw things as black and white. They were often able to regurgitate facts and details, but were not able to integrate that information.
When I was an examiner for the ABPS exam, the exam often involved some form of radiographic interpretation for "points to pass". On several occassions, these "top students" interpreted the films by giving me many esoteric facts and details that did not correlate clinically with the case, but did not see an obvious fracture that a typical 5th grade student would find. They were so busy looking for that one in a thousand anomaly, they missed the simple pathology.
These of course are exceptions, and there are many excellent and brilliant students/residents that have worked hard for many years and have the grades to prove that hard work.
But my point is that just because your GPA is mediocre does not mean many residency directors would eliminate you as a candidate. But you must obviously compensate for that lower GPA by being an excellent clinician, having excellent hands, having the ability to integrate information and correlate the information, working hard and having the ability to communicate well and work well with others.
However, it's all a moot point if you can not pass the boards. That must be your only concern at this point. Good luck.
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You have to pass your boards! As the others already stated, you have to pass your boards to get a license (part one and two for a limited license and some states like PA require part three as well).
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As other people have already said, you need to work on passing your boards. After attending the residency directors CME meeting at the CRIP interviews in Texas, there were discussions about the proposed changes for the upcoming revision of the CPME 320 and 330 documents, which are guidelines that residency programs must adhere to. One of the major revision is that ALL students must PASS NBPME Part 1 AND 2 exams prior to starting residency program. The school deans have been made aware of this and are supposedly working on requiring students to pass both Part 1 and 2 prior to graduation.
One reason why our field is in the mess it is in is stated above. Many GR8 candidates with outstanding gpa's are overlooked. Instead residency directors take the student who has terrible grades and is barely passing. 2 yr programs think that outstanding students will not rank them highest and in turn rank the best students lower. This sets up a scenario where the outstanding student gets left out and no program is available.
The true crime in all of this is that many of the top of the class students are thinkers and want to advance the field with research. I'm not aware of any of the bottom of the class students going the research route.
Let's give the best students the opportunities so that our field can advance, better procedures may be developed, and more positive outcomes may result!
....my 2 cents!
The true crime in all of this is that many of the top of the class students are thinkers and want to advance the field with research. I'm not aware of any of the bottom of the class students going the research route.
Let's give the best students the opportunities so that our field can advance, better procedures may be developed, and more positive outcomes may result!
....my 2 cents!
I can not believe that anyone intentionally ranks a better student lower. What is the advantage in that? Even if a program doesn't think their number one pick will select them they still rank them one. This is because if the applicant doen't rank them the computer will still match them down the list to two then three and so on. There is a misconception that the rankings are somehow combined to create a perfect match. I have seen students not rank their first choice fearing that if the program doesn't rank them one they will lose a shot at their second choice. If they rank a program 2 and that program ranks them one then they will get it if the students top choice doesn't pick them.
Also no one has said that they would take someone with a lower GPA over someone with a higher one if all other criteria are equal. What has been said is that a GPA alone does not necessarily mean a good clinical mind or personality. Didactics are important but only one factor in the making of a good doctor. I can not speak about your specific situation but if your grades are good perhaps you can logically evaluate why your interviews did not work out. It seems as though you are research driven and if you stressed this during interviews many programs (unfortunately) do not have research facilities. Have you considered getting a PhD? Many MDs pursue this route and many of the research driven DPMs have. Good Luck
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I will not repeat what Podfather said, because his comments were all accurate and true.
I will add to his comments regarding the interview process, because in my opinion, that's often where the "breakdown" occurs.
The university that my son attends prides itself on it's high rate of acceptance into medical/professional schools (my son isn't pre-med). They have a unique program that occurs during parent weekend. They invite all parents who are doctors to participate in "mock" interviews for seniors who are applying to schools in the medical field. This prepares the students for their "real" professional school interviews. The university has each parent interview 2-3 seniors privately, and each interview is about 45 minutes. A specific set of questions is given, plus you are allowed to go off topic. You are then supposed to critique the candidate.
Last year I interviewed a brilliant kid. He was amazing on paper and had performed all kinds of research that I didn't even understand. However, he had no interpersonal skills. He never looked up, never looked in my eyes, etc. Additionallyl, when I asked about his research, he started discussing it and then said "you know what that is....don't you?" and started asking ME questions!!!!!
He also started telling me how he ONLY wanted to perform research after he obtained his M.D. degree, etc., etc.
During my "critique", I explained that he should NEVER turn the tables on the interviewer. By asking ME the question about HIS research, two things could happen. First of all, it could put the interviewer in a position to look "stupid", which you don't want to do, or it could backfire. The interviewer could be the world's foremost expert on that topic and could blow the candidate out of the water returning questions to the candidate that the candidate can't answer!!!
Additionally, in this case, the candidate was going to apply to medical school, and just kept driving home the fact that he was ONLY interested in research. However, you NEVER know who is sitting in front of you, so you must temper your answers and be diplomatic. What if the interviewer is a doctor who prefers "clinicians" and does not "like" researchers?? What if this particular medical school is more clinically oriented and is not presently looking for "researchers?" What if this guy interviewing you is going through a nasty divorce and his wife is a "researcher"?
The bottom line is that during an interview process, there are a lot of factors involved above and beyond academics. You absolutely MUST be honest, but you also have to understand that you can't try to "guess" what the interviewer wants to hear. You also don't know the interviewer's preferences, so you have to be very careful with strong opinions. Many interviewers don't want to "hire" someone that he/she feels is already set in his/her ways and is not adaptable or a team worker.
In your future interviews, be honest but be careful with being TOO opinionated. You don't want to apply for a surgical residency but tell them you're not interested in surgery, but are only using it as a stepping stone to allow you to perform research. You can tell them you would like to integrate your training to allow you to perform research, etc.
I'm sure you're smart, so please don't take my comments as insulting. I've seen some extremely bright kids get shut out of residency programs by saying or doing the "wrong" things, and I'm simply speaking from my past experiences.
By the way, all the kids I interviewed from my son's university last year got into allopathic medical school (yeah, I'm sure it was ALL because of me!!). Even the kid with no personality. The other two kids I interviewed were amazing and personable and in my opinion will make great doctors some day.
I will add to his comments regarding the interview process, because in my opinion, that's often where the "breakdown" occurs.
The university that my son attends prides itself on it's high rate of acceptance into medical/professional schools (my son isn't pre-med). They have a unique program that occurs during parent weekend. They invite all parents who are doctors to participate in "mock" interviews for seniors who are applying to schools in the medical field. This prepares the students for their "real" professional school interviews. The university has each parent interview 2-3 seniors privately, and each interview is about 45 minutes. A specific set of questions is given, plus you are allowed to go off topic. You are then supposed to critique the candidate.
Last year I interviewed a brilliant kid. He was amazing on paper and had performed all kinds of research that I didn't even understand. However, he had no interpersonal skills. He never looked up, never looked in my eyes, etc. Additionallyl, when I asked about his research, he started discussing it and then said "you know what that is....don't you?" and started asking ME questions!!!!!
He also started telling me how he ONLY wanted to perform research after he obtained his M.D. degree, etc., etc.
During my "critique", I explained that he should NEVER turn the tables on the interviewer. By asking ME the question about HIS research, two things could happen. First of all, it could put the interviewer in a position to look "stupid", which you don't want to do, or it could backfire. The interviewer could be the world's foremost expert on that topic and could blow the candidate out of the water returning questions to the candidate that the candidate can't answer!!!
Additionally, in this case, the candidate was going to apply to medical school, and just kept driving home the fact that he was ONLY interested in research. However, you NEVER know who is sitting in front of you, so you must temper your answers and be diplomatic. What if the interviewer is a doctor who prefers "clinicians" and does not "like" researchers?? What if this particular medical school is more clinically oriented and is not presently looking for "researchers?" What if this guy interviewing you is going through a nasty divorce and his wife is a "researcher"?
The bottom line is that during an interview process, there are a lot of factors involved above and beyond academics. You absolutely MUST be honest, but you also have to understand that you can't try to "guess" what the interviewer wants to hear. You also don't know the interviewer's preferences, so you have to be very careful with strong opinions. Many interviewers don't want to "hire" someone that he/she feels is already set in his/her ways and is not adaptable or a team worker.
In your future interviews, be honest but be careful with being TOO opinionated. You don't want to apply for a surgical residency but tell them you're not interested in surgery, but are only using it as a stepping stone to allow you to perform research. You can tell them you would like to integrate your training to allow you to perform research, etc.
I'm sure you're smart, so please don't take my comments as insulting. I've seen some extremely bright kids get shut out of residency programs by saying or doing the "wrong" things, and I'm simply speaking from my past experiences.
By the way, all the kids I interviewed from my son's university last year got into allopathic medical school (yeah, I'm sure it was ALL because of me!!). Even the kid with no personality. The other two kids I interviewed were amazing and personable and in my opinion will make great doctors some day.
First of all, I'm not a kid, and I hope that most people don't view me as opinionated because I'm a very open minded woman. I'm a great clinician, and often get to the root cause of the problem through good listening skills. One of the primary reasons I wanted to so a surgical residency was to learn various treatment strategies for podiatric concerns. Over the years, I've listened to people's concerns with various surgical outcomes and found some interesting results.
I'd like to do study on different methods of bunion surgery, plantar plate rupture and consequence, and have great concepts for new wound care strategies that currently do not exist.
All of the "research" I intend to do could easily be performed in most hospital settings with support of a director, and published with unbiased, valuable patient outcomes.
I didn't tout research as my be all and end all in interviews eons ago. After not being matched several years in a row, some of the directors I spoke with told me they thought I should be in a 3 yr surgical because of my high grades, clinical skills, and prior health care experience.
Our field needs to utilize extremely intelligent, great clinicians like me who can make a hugely positive impact to our profession. Instead, those like me are discounted and discarded.
We need to do what we can to train intelligent practitioners, as a profession, not force them into conservative care practices.
I'd like to do study on different methods of bunion surgery, plantar plate rupture and consequence, and have great concepts for new wound care strategies that currently do not exist.
All of the "research" I intend to do could easily be performed in most hospital settings with support of a director, and published with unbiased, valuable patient outcomes.
I didn't tout research as my be all and end all in interviews eons ago. After not being matched several years in a row, some of the directors I spoke with told me they thought I should be in a 3 yr surgical because of my high grades, clinical skills, and prior health care experience.
Our field needs to utilize extremely intelligent, great clinicians like me who can make a hugely positive impact to our profession. Instead, those like me are discounted and discarded.
We need to do what we can to train intelligent practitioners, as a profession, not force them into conservative care practices.
Most surgical practices utilize more conservative than surgical care. Why not link up with a surgical DPM refer them your surgery and as a team do the research you want to do? I guess to be blunt me there is a back story to all of this.
Thanks for the response. As far as referring my patients out so others can do the surgical cases...no thanks. Been there, done that. I really enjoy the surgical aspect of our field and should be able to offer my patients surgical treatments for digits and bunions, at the very least.
I would hope that most surgical practices utilize conservative care methods. Imagine NOT being able to offer a surgical option to YOUR patients. YOU do the diagnosis and then they have to go to another pod for treatment.
I've studied medicine and been involved in medicine for over 25 years. There were times in my life when I read 100's of research papers in a day! My clinical experiences go far beyond podiatry. I am a good clinician. I'm not a snob and I resent anyone saying I have a bad attitude. The exact opposite is true. I went into healthcare because I greatly enjoy it and have made huge successful differences in patient outcomes. I've lectured, written articles, done laboratory research; been involved in physical therapy, speech therapy, pain management, in many different health care aspects.
I did scramble last year but didn't get a spot. I hope to get a spot this year!
I would hope that most surgical practices utilize conservative care methods. Imagine NOT being able to offer a surgical option to YOUR patients. YOU do the diagnosis and then they have to go to another pod for treatment.
I've studied medicine and been involved in medicine for over 25 years. There were times in my life when I read 100's of research papers in a day! My clinical experiences go far beyond podiatry. I am a good clinician. I'm not a snob and I resent anyone saying I have a bad attitude. The exact opposite is true. I went into healthcare because I greatly enjoy it and have made huge successful differences in patient outcomes. I've lectured, written articles, done laboratory research; been involved in physical therapy, speech therapy, pain management, in many different health care aspects.
I did scramble last year but didn't get a spot. I hope to get a spot this year!
Since you will not answer any of my or others questions, we can not give you advice. I get referrals from scores of DPMs who are excellent doctors but punt their surgery to me. Many MDs are in medicine and refer to surgeons. I still do not understand why you did not match when spots were open just a few years ago. If you want advice ask specific questions and I can try to answer. If you are bitter and are here to rant and bad mouth the profession, I guess we are done.
Hi PodFather. I'm not ranting and I'm not bitter. I'm excited that this will be my year, finally, and I'm hoping to be back in the OR in a matter of months, learning valuable surgical skills that I may bring to my patients. This is an exciting time for me.
Any advice is nice, although tons of advice hasn't helped me get a residency. I graduated a long time ago and all of my friends are in practice, most doing ok. I talk to them frequently about the profession, their interesting surgical cases, surgical complications they've experienced, etc.
I don't want to tell you personal info for sake of anonymity. No, I don't have nonsurgical residency training. I went through CASPR several times, applied to 50+ residency programs. After getting turned down for so many years I went into conservative care practice. I didn't want to spend 10s of thousands of dollars in the CASPR program yet again. Who would? Last year I decided once again to take the plunge and try for a residency so that I could offer this valuable service to my own patients someday. It's hard to just pick up and take off when you've already developed a patient base. I did not get anywhere with the scramble.
I am in a position to accept a residency program now. I even have friends who would affiliate and give me enough cases so that I don't take away from any other resident's numbers, if that were a concern. Are you aware of any open programs? This is the advice I would need. I'm seeking names of programs and directors who are interested in training me. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Any advice is nice, although tons of advice hasn't helped me get a residency. I graduated a long time ago and all of my friends are in practice, most doing ok. I talk to them frequently about the profession, their interesting surgical cases, surgical complications they've experienced, etc.
I don't want to tell you personal info for sake of anonymity. No, I don't have nonsurgical residency training. I went through CASPR several times, applied to 50+ residency programs. After getting turned down for so many years I went into conservative care practice. I didn't want to spend 10s of thousands of dollars in the CASPR program yet again. Who would? Last year I decided once again to take the plunge and try for a residency so that I could offer this valuable service to my own patients someday. It's hard to just pick up and take off when you've already developed a patient base. I did not get anywhere with the scramble.
I am in a position to accept a residency program now. I even have friends who would affiliate and give me enough cases so that I don't take away from any other resident's numbers, if that were a concern. Are you aware of any open programs? This is the advice I would need. I'm seeking names of programs and directors who are interested in training me. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
How about you identify some programs that you feel you would fit into. Then, call and explain you situation and goals. Ask if you could spend some time there to see the program and for them to get to know you. That would perhaps help next year if not successful this year. Also if you already have a license without a residency (rare for today) maybe spend time with some local surgeons doing cases with them you refer. It may allow you to do some of these cases in the future. If you have been out for a long time, it is imperative that you spend pre-interview time making sure you are current. Many things have changed. If I were not involved in residency training my training would be outdated. CMEs and keeping current are essential for you.
I wanted to also respond to your question about money. For me, applying to so many programs cost quite a bit in fees and travel expenses.
In all fairness, I should mention that I was accepted to a surgical residency program long ago. I put money down on a house, thinking it was going to all work out as I had my acceptance letter. The program closed less than 2 weeks I was to begin. I lost my down payment on the house and, since I'd already accepted, didn't try for anywhere else. By the time I learned that the program was not going to continue to exist it was too late; no other residency programs were available. Bills were piling up and I had to start working.
In all fairness, I should mention that I was accepted to a surgical residency program long ago. I put money down on a house, thinking it was going to all work out as I had my acceptance letter. The program closed less than 2 weeks I was to begin. I lost my down payment on the house and, since I'd already accepted, didn't try for anywhere else. By the time I learned that the program was not going to continue to exist it was too late; no other residency programs were available. Bills were piling up and I had to start working.
W
whiskers
Well the best students might also have the best old test stack too or the most antisocial behaviors which led to them cutting their classmates throats.
Simply not things many programs want.
Just things we all know. But that's not you because you will change the whole profession because you are superior to the rest.
blah.
W
whiskers
The best students have to get in the pod research line and wait their turn to be the next one who saves the profession and is honored as such.
The fact is that the things being researched in podiatry really are not earth shattering things.
In fact, most of it seems like a huge waste of time and paper. But again just my .02.
I don't know but the candidate that says I am going to do this and I am going to do that probably isn't a real good team player.
But you can still clip nails while waiting for your big research break...
Whiskers,
There isn't a big break to get into research. Most, if not all, podiatric surgeons could be performing research. Research should be based upon the practice's patient population. For example, for a diabetic foot clinic, what specific parameters provide better or worse patient outcomes? Is the Total Contact Cast a substanitally better treatment than a short removable walking cast for off loading? Some research indicates that it does. What factors implicate poor healing time? We already have some very useful specific data regarding vascular abnormalities, impaired renal function, loss of neuro sensation, etc. Realization of more specific findings, negative or positive outcome predictors, can be very useful to a concerned practitioner and patients.
There is always room for more research within the field of podiatry. The advancements in wound healing since I graduated are enormous. It's my understanding too that most residency programs require a research project. Is this not true?
It's very wrong to make fun of practitioners who practice conservative care. After I complete my future residency training I intend to return to a practice with substantial conservative care patients. The advantage is that my patients will not have to be sent out for a surgical option.
There isn't a big break to get into research. Most, if not all, podiatric surgeons could be performing research. Research should be based upon the practice's patient population. For example, for a diabetic foot clinic, what specific parameters provide better or worse patient outcomes? Is the Total Contact Cast a substanitally better treatment than a short removable walking cast for off loading? Some research indicates that it does. What factors implicate poor healing time? We already have some very useful specific data regarding vascular abnormalities, impaired renal function, loss of neuro sensation, etc. Realization of more specific findings, negative or positive outcome predictors, can be very useful to a concerned practitioner and patients.
There is always room for more research within the field of podiatry. The advancements in wound healing since I graduated are enormous. It's my understanding too that most residency programs require a research project. Is this not true?
It's very wrong to make fun of practitioners who practice conservative care. After I complete my future residency training I intend to return to a practice with substantial conservative care patients. The advantage is that my patients will not have to be sent out for a surgical option.
I am not a cut throat type of person. I'm not antisocial either. If I gave you that impression then please accept my apology. Perhaps you could enlighten me and let me know what many programs want.
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podpal,
Due yourself a favor and spend time concentrating on responding to any posts other than "whiskers".
Do a quick review of the majority of any of "whiskers" posts and you will immediately see that his/her posts are filled with negative comments, no useful or constructive information and the only purpose is to antagonize.
Apologizing to "whiskers" is certainly not warranted, though vice versa would be in order.
Due yourself a favor and spend time concentrating on responding to any posts other than "whiskers".
Do a quick review of the majority of any of "whiskers" posts and you will immediately see that his/her posts are filled with negative comments, no useful or constructive information and the only purpose is to antagonize.
Apologizing to "whiskers" is certainly not warranted, though vice versa would be in order.
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My residency program in Northern Virginia does not require a research project for succesful completion of residency. We have a formal research rotation for 3 months, and fortunately the candidates that are accepted here are all highly motivated and most if not all complete a research project.
