Resident being sued

[PikminOC]

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Bingo, there's a reason every settled/lost lawsuit doesn't result in a board sanction.

It also depends if someone turns it into the board. Boards are busy, they want slam dunk cases

 

[PikminOC]

Yes, if they did something wrong. But I have yet to hear of a case where a doctor followed the standard of care (even with off-label use of common meds) and was held accountable by a medical board. If you know of some, please cite the court case so the rest of us can read up on it.

My boards don't give that much specific info to the public in their disciplines

 

[PikminOC]

Very hard to lose a license from what I've seen. Look up board disciplinary decisions and it's usually "Take a course on why you shouldn't do that anymore." Never heard of a medical degree being revoked.

The state license would be revoked not the degree. And yes it happens

 

[TexasPhysician]

Of those 22 actions, ~50% were license revoked, the rest were about half "charges" with outcome TBD and punishment less than revoked (ranging from no controlled substance prescribing to a censure letter).

The take home message is that everyone who was punished did something that was SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY bad or SERIOUSLY BAD MANY MANY times. Also, it's almost all sex, drugs and fraud that gets people in trouble, not bad medicine.



LOLZ -_- dude you are so fine. unless this person happens to be a lawyer who graduated from a top school or maybe an MD, there is no way that they have the ability to navigate the immense storm of paperwork that your hospitals legal team will toss at them or make a coherent argument that you committed malpractice. The bad news is that there is no reasonable legal team to agree to get you off the case after your deposition.

No one serious represents themselves in a civil suit. if you have any approximation of a chance in hell of a settlement or win celino and barnes types (800-888-8888) will take your case on contingency if you can't afford a retainer.

One of the first things you learn in law school is to never represent yourself. If someone from a top school is doing it, they were never top school material.

 

[clausewitz2]

Unrelated, but in residency, we filed for commitment on a schizophrenic gentleman who was acutely psychotic and extremely ill. Just before the commitment hearing, he fired his attorney and represented himself. Shortest commitment hearing there ever was.

Yeah, every time we heard that the patient refused to meet with the public defender and were going to represent themselves I would stop working on the d/c summary because they were pretty much guaranteed to not be going anywhere that day.

 

[Merely]

Yeah, every time we heard that the patient refused to meet with the public defender and were going to represent themselves I would stop working on the d/c summary because they were pretty much guaranteed to not be going anywhere that day.

but why would u be working on the dc summary if you were probating someone? Does the court rule against you often?

 

[Mass Effect]

but why would u be working on the dc summary if you were probating someone? Does the court rule against you often?

You always complete the DC summary because you never know how a judge will rule and if they say the patient should be released, it's an immediate thing. Judges sometimes surprise you.

Back in residency, the judge never made the decision right then at the hearing. It always took a few days for the judge to review things, but that wasn't the case other places I've worked.

 

[downwithDTB]

One of the first things you learn in law school is to never represent yourself. If someone from a top school is doing it, they were never top school material.

I was just hypothesizing that a personality disordered and highly intelligent individual (maybe who is pissed that they got IMed) with good training in law or medicine might at least be be able to throw up some road blocks and/or at least make an argument as to why there was malpractice. Not saying that it wouldn't be at terrible idea and that I as the defendant wouldn't be thrilled...

... but a guy with NPD and a degree from HLS representing himself would scare me a little more than what this is most likely: a very sad
and unfortunate case of a psychotic person who thinks they were abused by the system, is trying to exact revenge and is just barely organized enough to do so. I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over that.

(Also, another aside, while you may have been advised against discussing the specifics of this case, and I don't think you should do this here, I don't see how discussing a similar, yet clearly hypothetical and slightly different in some facts could ever come back to bite you).

 

[clausewitz2]

Maybe it is not possible in all EMRs but I always did my best to have a running draft discharge summary going throughout the whole hospitalization, making finalizing it on day of discharge far less burdensome. It also helped me maintain perspective on the course of hospitalization and at a glance I could know exactly what we had tried when already.

 

[meow1985]

Ok, so I’m not too worried my license will be revoked. I just worry that with this ongoing thing on my record they won’t give me a license at all, or give it to me but with restrictions or conditions.

 

[PikminOC]

Ok, so I’m not too worried my license will be revoked. I just worry that with this ongoing thing on my record they won’t give me a license at all, or give it to me but with restrictions or conditions. I can’t have that if I want to keep my job offer.

What helps is my lawyer helped draft a summary of the relevant medical and legal details of the case for credentialing and license paperwork. So at least I can tell my side of the story. Hopefully they will believe it and not presume guilt.

I am not going to Ohio, which should help. That’s where that woman was whose license was revoked for buying a bottle of Xanax off the black market. Not that what she did was in any way appropriate, but the board went way too far.

Yeah, I won’t say any more than what I already said, that the plaintiff is representing themselves. I only mentioned that to indicate that nothing anyone said about lawyers applies, for what it’s worth.

Thx for the update. The lawyer stuff is still relevant in most cases. You just haven't been bitten by one.

 

[PikminOC]

Ok, so I’m not too worried my license will be revoked. I just worry that with this ongoing thing on my record they won’t give me a license at all, or give it to me but with restrictions or conditions. I can’t have that if I want to keep my job offer.

What helps is my lawyer helped draft a summary of the relevant medical and legal details of the case for credentialing and license paperwork. So at least I can tell my side of the story. Hopefully they will believe it and not presume guilt.

I am not going to Ohio, which should help. That’s where that woman was whose license was revoked for buying a bottle of Xanax off the black market. Not that what she did was in any way appropriate, but the board went way too far.

Yeah, I won’t say any more than what I already said, that the plaintiff is representing themselves. I only mentioned that to indicate that nothing anyone said about lawyers applies, for what it’s worth.

Did you disclose your mental health struggles in your application?

 

[meow1985]

Did you disclose your mental health struggles in your application?

I've had extensive discussions with lawyers, my treating physicians, and my PD about whether I should disclose my MH issues, and they said that they do not rise to the level of needing to be disclosed.

 

[PikminOC]

I hate lawyers. I have been traumatized by the legal system in the past. This strikes at the core of all my fears.

If there's likely to be more of this in my future, I'm considering quitting medicine quite strongly.

You've dealt with the legal system in the past?

 

[PikminOC]

One of my co residents and the attending they were working with got named in a VA lawsuit not too long ago. So I’m actually the second in my class this has happened to.

Is this you? You post on your own threads with different accts?

 

[meow1985]

You've dealt with the legal system in the past?

People in my family have had legal entanglements, also personal property and custody stuff.

 

[PikminOC]

I haven't filed the application yet. I've also had extensive discussions with lawyers, my treating physicians, and my PD about whether I should disclose my MH issues, and they said that they do not rise to the level of needing to be disclosed. I am also @nonnyyy122018, so refer to the posts made about answering the licensing board question.

If you read my other post on this account, the update to it is that my performance reviews since I've made that post were some of my best, and I am definitely not probation or remediation material. The difficulties that I did have were blips on a radar that can happen to anyone. I tend to be a lot more anxious on this particular board than I am in real life.

But are you now going to tell me that I need to disclose my MH issues anyway, since confirming my worst case scenario worries seems to be your pattern? I guess I can, in case the board starts sniffing around.

You asked me to look at the postings in the other acct but limit the people who can look..

 

[meow1985]

Is this you? You post on your own threads with different accts?

Yeah, I posted that with the wrong account by mistake. That's me. Didn't mean to mislead anyone. And what I said there is true. One of my co-residents got named in a suit from her PGY1 as well. A different suit from mine. She had no issue getting jobs and a fellowship, but she is not planning to move out of state. Her suit is still pending too.

And here's my MH disclose or don't disclose thread. I deleted a lot of it, but the important update is down the page with the take home point from my lawyers and treating physician.

Licensing and mental health

. Got my question answered, thanks. See last post for takeaways.

forums.studentdoctor.net

Licensing and mental health

. Got my question answered, thanks. See last post for takeaways.

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[meow1985]

.

 

[PikminOC]

So yeah, the takeaways:
I have a garden variety MH diagnosis.
I have taken time off for 1 mos as a PGY3 to improve my quality of life because of it.
I have never done poorly at work. My PD, attendings, and peers will attest to this. I am a good doctor and a better than average resident.
I have excellent grades and test scores and come from a reputable school and program.
I now have this lawsuit on my hands from a patient I treated in early PGY1.

The illness affected you enough to have to take time off from your job, which is highly relevant. Garden variety or not, that's a big deal.

Does the hospital you're applying to know this? Did you answer their questions honestly?

 

[meow1985]

The illness affected you enough to have to take time off from your job, which is highly relevant. Garden variety or not, that's a big deal

The answer to the question asked by the licensing board is no.
But I can disclose it if you, an internet commenter, think that my doctor, my PD, the person I talked to at the state board, and my lawyer are wrong. I don't care at this point.

 

[meow1985]

The illness affected you enough to have to take time off from your job, which is highly relevant. Garden variety or not, that's a big deal.

Does the hospital you're applying to know this? Did you answer their questions honestly?

The hospital never asked about mental illness or time off.

 

[PikminOC]

The license board's question was "if untreated, would it be likely that the illness would impair you from practicing medicine in a reasonably safe and competent way."
The answer to that question is no.
But I can disclose it if you, an internet commenter, think that my doctor, my PD, and my lawyer who used to sit as a lay member of a medical board, are wrong. I don't care at this point.

Much like in other things, the board is different from when people used to sit on it.

I know the past prosecutor for our board and he can't believe how different the board is now.

 

[meow1985]

Much like in other things, the board is different from when people used to sit on it.

I know the past prosecutor for our board and he can't believe how different the board is now.

If you think I will have a problem, *help* me. Don't just feed my worst case scenario fears.

Also, jobs are not *allowed* to ask about illness. They ask if you fall into a disability class based on anything, and I do not.

 

[PikminOC]

Look, just come out and say it - do you think my MH condition, leave, and the lawsuit are going to cause me not to get a license or to get a conditional/restricted license? Do you think I won't pass credentialing? Do I need a plan B right now that does not involve moving across state lines?

I did nothing wrong. I am doing the best I can. I want to help people and I do a good job. I am an honest and upstanding citizen. If I got restricted from working with the "issues" I have, there'd be an even more severe shortage of doctors. I'll be sidelined before I ever start practice, and who loses? The state and my potential patients.

If you think I will have a problem, *help* me. Don't just feed my worst case scenario fears.

Also, jobs are not *allowed* to ask about illness. They ask if you fall into a disability class based on anything, and I do not.

Things are different when you are a physician when it comes to these questions.

I can't predict the future for you, but it's better to tell the truth, imo.

A month off is a big deal.

 

[downwithDTB]

The illness affected you enough to have to take time off from your job, which is highly relevant. Garden variety or not, that's a big deal.

Is it any more relevant than having given birth or having gotten any non-mental illness that caused them to take time off? Would you say the same if they had MS? Cancer? Inflammatory bowel disease?

I know plenty of excellent doctors at top programs who have taken way more than a month off for illness, including mental, and continue to get promoted, including above their peers.

 

[meow1985]

Things are different when you are a physician when it comes to these questions.

I can't predict the future for you, but it's better to tell the truth, imo.

A month off is a big deal.

Yeah, but the answer to the question asked by the state still technically and truthfully "No."

The condition does not make it impossible to do a decent job taking care of patients. The condition just makes me abjectly miserable and makes me spend hours of my free time online looking for info and opinions to dissuade me from my worries. Time I could spend doing things with my family and friends and taking care of myself.

 

[PikminOC]

Yeah, but the answer to the question asked by the state still technically and truthfully "No."

The condition does not make it impossible to do a decent job taking care of patients. The condition just makes me abjectly miserable and makes me spend hours online looking for info and opinions to dissuade me from my worries. Time I could spend doing things with my family and friends and taking care of myself. My condition also made me reassurence-seek from my attendings to a degree that made them ask if I'm ok and if I need a break.

My patients were happy and appropriately treated. My notes were done. But I was abjectly miserable. I will go up in front of the board and say that but I will *not* say that my condition impairs me from being a good doctor.

The illness since it effects facets of your life so deeply is the definition of impairment.
You are free to do as you wish.
But better to ask permission than forgiveness when it comes to Medical boards imo

 

[meow1985]

Is it any more relevant than having given birth or having gotten any non-mental illness that caused them to take time off? Would you say the same if they had MS? Cancer? Inflammatory bowel disease?

I know plenty of excellent doctors at top programs who have taken way more than a month off for illness, including mental, and continue to get promoted, including above their peers.

See the quote from my other post:

Ok, I talked in a more depth to my doc since it was just a brief phone conversation before, and here are the takeaways.

The question, to remind everyone, was "have you been told by a treating provider that you have a condition, that if untreated, would be likely to impair your ability to take care of patients in a reasonably safe and competent manner?"

For my doc, the response hinges on the wording of "would be likely." The words "would" and "likely" imply a degree of certainty, which leads him to say "no" in my case. (Compare to "would likely" to "could possibly," the latter casting a wider net.)

Also, he said "impairment" is a big deal, and he is mindful of not using that word lightly, especially in notes about people in high-stakes professions like ours. Could my condition affect my practice? Yes, it could. But impair and affect are by no means the same. A good litmus test is, consider yourself on a bad day - maybe you're at the end of a long call shift, haven't slept, haven't eaten, and just got yelled at by a patient. Chances are your next clinical encounter won't be your best. Compare that to how your health condition affects you, or would affect you if untreated. If it affects you to an extent well beyond the normal variation that comes with everyday demands and stressors, that's an argument in favor of impairment.

Another way to think about it is were I to go off my meds and leave care, would he be concerned about me practicing safely and feel compelled to report me to the board. There are some conditions where he could say with a degree of certainty that things would go very poorly if one goes off their meds, such as Type I diabetes, or Bipolar disorder, or even thyroid disease. But my case isn't one of them.

 

[meow1985]

The illness since it effects facets of your life so deeply is the definition of impairment.
You are free to do as you wish.
But better to ask permission than forgiveness when it comes to Medical boards imo

They don't care about other facets of my life. They care about medicine.

 

[PikminOC]

They don't care about other facets of my life. They care about medicine.

You took a month off medicine

 

[PikminOC]

Is it any more relevant than having given birth or having gotten any non-mental illness that caused them to take time off? Would you say the same if they had MS? Cancer? Inflammatory bowel disease?

I know plenty of excellent doctors at top programs who have taken way more than a month off for illness, including mental, and continue to get promoted, including above their peers.

It's relevant to the state board.

 

[meow1985]

It's relevant to the state board.

One of my co residents had a bad bike accident and was out of work for a month?

Countless people go on maternity/paternity leave?

Physicians, residents included, are allowed to be ill and to have lives. They also are entitled to on average 12 weeks a year of *paid* medical leave, no questions asked.

Also, I promise you, no job I applied about specific health conditions, just if I meet criteria for a disability based on a long list of Dx's none of which are mine.

 

[meow1985]

I know plenty of excellent doctors at top programs who have taken way more than a month off for illness, including mental, and continue to get promoted, including above their peers.

Do we know if it was disclosed to the board?

 

[downwithDTB]

Do we know if it was disclosed to the board?

I have no idea but I doubt it. My board doesn't ask questions about illnesses, only actions against you by hospitals and other boards.

Having an illness per se is not considered misconduct in my state, you have to practice while impaired by that (physical or mental) illness. Taking time off for any number of months, even if you became impaired during your break, would not be misconduct.

With that said ... You could either trust your doctor and lawyer or random internet people on this one...

 

[Taddy Mason]

If not trolling what do you anticipate gaining from this thread?

 

[Mass Effect]

Did you disclose your mental health struggles in your application?

The illness affected you enough to have to take time off from your job, which is highly relevant. Garden variety or not, that's a big deal.

Does the hospital you're applying to know this? Did you answer their questions honestly?

The illness since it effects facets of your life so deeply is the definition of impairment.
You are free to do as you wish.
But better to ask permission than forgiveness when it comes to Medical boards imo

What just happened in this thread is pretty frustrating and imo, factually wrong on multiple accounts. First and foremost, the definition of impairment on the job because it doesn't mean what you think it means. Secondly, out of nowhere you ask the OP about his/her mental health history when there's a whole other thread devoted to it, thereby muddying the line between the two threads which are about two separate questions. Third, anyone who read the other thread knows the OP was struggling deeply with this decision and had finally come to a conclusion after consulting an attorney AND the doctor in question. The OP was so over the discussion that he/she even deleted his/her posts in the thread because the question had been answered and the decision had been made. To then bring that same discussion to another, unrelated thread is inappropriate, imo. What was the purpose of that, besides further poking at the OP (even unintentionally) and resurrecting the struggle all over again for him/her?

 

[meow1985]

If not trolling what do you anticipate gaining from this thread?

Why would I be trolling. **** happens to people.

The goal of this thread was to get support.

Then it turned into a question of whether the case I just got served with will affect my chances of getting a license and credentialing.

 

[clausewitz2]

I'll be taking a month off medicine after graduation before I start a new job?

One of my co residents had a bad bike accident and was out of work for a month?

Countless people go on maternity/paternity leave?

One of my attendings takes a month off a year to go abroad and take care of her sick father?

One of my attendings took a month long leave to bum around the world to cure burnout?

Physicians, residents included, are allowed to be ill and to have lives. They also are entitled to on average 12 weeks a year of *paid* medical leave, no questions asked. Every HR department went over this with me.

Also, I promise you, no job I applied about specific health conditions, just if I meet criteria for a disability based on a long list of Dx's none of which are mine. One job asked about leaves of absence and I said I took one for a month for a medical reason. No follow up questions were asked.

Minor correction, FMLA does mean you can get 12 weeks off in situations involving your health, caring for a loved one, new child etc. but your employer is under no obligation to pay you for that time. They only have to give you your job back at the end of 12 weeks.

 

[Mass Effect]

Why would I be trolling. **** happens to people.

The goal of this thread was to get support.

Then it turned into a question of whether the case I just got served with will affect my chances of getting an unrestricted license and credentialing.

And since this did get dragged up again, there’s the question of whether the lawsuit should change my decision about the MH disclosure and LOA, and whether the MH stuff, leave and lawsuit taken together make my chances worse. I would have thought no, since those are completely different issues, but who the heck knows anymore. As you may recall my main Hangup to disclosing my MH in my destination state is that I didn’t disclose it in my home state because when I first applied for a license there no leave had occurred. And no, I promise the MH issue and the lawsuit had nothing to do with one another. The leave and lawsuit were separated in time by two years, and my residency Evals were always excellent, whatever my own twisted fears of failure may have told me.

TikiTorches was not being particularly helpful because they seemed to be sending the message that ANY deviation from the completely jejune and uneventful record is a red flag for the board. I think in actuality it doesn’t quite go that far. Otherwise, we’d have no doctors.

I also believe in answering the questions that are asked, and actually taking the time to understand the question/situation/applicable terminology before I speak. If a board or employer does not ask, there’s no reason to tell them.

Do your best to ignore TikiTorches's contribution to your MH question. It has nothing to do with this thread and with this question and I'd hate to think it only served to make you further question a decision that had been made with all the Ts crossed and all the Is dotted. You consulted an attorney. You consulted the physician who made the diagnosis. You did your due diligence and reached a decision that 99% of us all agreed with on your other thread. Don't allow it being brought up in this totally unrelated context to trigger another round of self-doubt and questions.

 

[justfolks]

Just a patent, but also a lawyer - a "pro se" plaintiff bringing a claim is a "tell" as to the case's merits -- if that claim had any merit, or even if it didn't ultimately have merit but was somehow plausible on its face such that it could be used to extract a significant settlement, a real lawyer would have taken the case. That the plaintiff couldn't get a lawyer speaks volumes. I completely understand how stressful it is to have been named, but in my very much lay person's opinion, OP's thought process as displayed in this thread suggests an urgent need for some serious therapy. A lot of "what if, but no, really, what if???" that is not reality-based. Lawyers have licenses too, and we get sued for malpractice, that is what insurance is for. I have colleagues who have been sued, the cases eventually settled, they are partners in major law firms and never once considered giving up their licenses and leaving the industry because they were named as defendants!

 

[clausewitz2]

At the end of the day, OP, just consider that stat about half of all physicians bring sued in their career. Now consider that the vast majority of physicians are gainfully employed. This is really all you need to know.

 

[Merely]

At the end of the day, OP, just consider that stat about half of all physicians bring sued in their career. Now consider that the vast majority of physicians are gainfully employed. This is really all you need to know.

people keep saying half are sued in their career..considering it’s generally around a 30 year career damn that seems like an underestimation

 

[clausewitz2]

people keep saying half are sued in their career..considering it’s generally around a 30 year career damn that seems like an underestimation

They aren't randomly distributed across the entire population of physicians, which is why when people infer from a yearly rate to "well after X number of years on average all physicians will be sued" you can go ahead and stop listening.

 

[meow1985]

Minor correction, FMLA does mean you can get 12 weeks off in situations involving your health, caring for a loved one, new child etc. but your employer is under no obligation to pay you for that time. They only have to give you your job back at the end of 12 weeks.

In general, yes. But in my residency and the jobs I applied for it is paid at 100% for 12 weeks, and a fraction of that thereafter.

 

[meow1985]

Just a patent, but also a lawyer - a "pro se" plaintiff bringing a claim is a "tell" as to the case's merits -- if that claim had any merit, or even if it didn't ultimately have merit but was somehow plausible on its face such that it could be used to extract a significant settlement, a real lawyer would have taken the case. That the plaintiff couldn't get a lawyer speaks volumes. I completely understand how stressful it is to have been named, but in my very much lay person's opinion, OP's thought process as displayed in this thread suggests an urgent need for some serious therapy. A lot of "what if, but no, really, what if???" that is not reality-based. Lawyers have licenses too, and we get sued for malpractice, that is what insurance is for. I have colleagues who have been sued, the cases eventually settled, they are partners in major law firms and never once considered giving up their licenses and leaving the industry because they were named as defendants!

Haha, I am in therapy. And it does help me function.

 

[meow1985]

They aren't randomly distributed across the entire population of physicians, which is why when people infer from a yearly rate to "well after X number of years on average all physicians will be sued" you can go ahead and stop listening.

1 in 3 physicians has been sued; by age 55, 1 in 2 hit with suit

Specialty, age and gender tied to liability risk, says new research. Reforms are needed to fix the liability system that imposes high burdens on U.S. health care.

www.ama-assn.org

This AMA article suggests a cross sectional study design, and says by 55 half of physicians are sued. But by 40, only 8% are. And only 16% if psychiatrists get sued.

 

[clausewitz2]

1 in 3 physicians has been sued; by age 55, 1 in 2 hit with suit

Specialty, age and gender tied to liability risk, says new research. Reforms are needed to fix the liability system that imposes high burdens on U.S. health care.

www.ama-assn.org

This AMA article suggests a cross sectional study design, and says by 55 half of physicians are sued. But by 40, only 8% are. And only 16% if psychiatrists get sued. I’m also female (funny that all of you though I was male), so that makes me even less likely to be sued. I guess as a young female psychiatrist I am “lucky” that way.

Hopefully though boards don’t aren’t so granular in their approach that they’d be like, hmmm, she got sued in a low litigation specialty her first year in this career, must be a rotten doctor. That’s some tinfoil hat thinking going on there.

The more important point is that they will think "huh, pending pro se lawsuit, that's totally irrelevant to our decision making."

 

[meow1985]

Ok, update:
I talked to an acquaintance who is a neurosurgeon in my destination state. She is the neighbor of a family member. She is another voice who indicated that between my MH related LOA and pending lawsuit, the board and the credentialing body are unlikely to be concerned about me. In fact, her knee-jerk reaction as a non-psychiatrist to my description of what led to my leave was, "oh, so you were burned out."

A good takeaway message for posterity that she happened to express is that the board just wants to know that I am safe to practice.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't think what you described for the reason for your leave was burnout. Burnout is kind of a catch-all phrase that everyone uses but few use it correctly. Your friend was wrong, based on what you've told us. But that's not really relevant because the overall point is right -- the board is unlikely to be concerned about you.