Resident dating

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FibulaFx

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When you are a resident, are you allowed to date
1) the chief resident or fellows in your specialty at your hospital? What if (for example) it's a foot & ankle fellow and you are rarely in on those cases lately?

2) med students who are going into your specialty & interviewing at your hospital? (if no, then could u date them after interview season ends? or not until after match day? Does it even really matter to most peeps?)

And what if you wanted to get with someone in 1 of these groups, but you just limited it to texting or something until the time was more appropriate
 
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My 2 cents:

1. The 'power gap' between a resident and a fellow or chief resident isn't that big. I don't think it'd be a problem in most places. But before you start, take a moment to consider the mess you'll be in if the relationship goes belly-up in some nasty way and you still have to work with/under the other person for 80 + hours a week.

2. This is a big nono. You cannot date/be involved with/make a move on someone over whom you have a position of power. Those med students' entire career depends on their interviews. Sending them any kind of personal message that could possibly be construed an a come-on is out of line.
I guess that after match day, it's open season, but the warning above still applies.
 
1) thanks
2) but is the resident really in a position of power here? I didnt think residents really had direct influence upon the student matching there...
 
FibulaFx said:
1) thanks
2) but is the resident really in a position of power here? I didnt think residents really had direct influence upon the student matching there...
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At some programs, they can have a significant say in which students match there.

Even if they don't, it LOOKS bad.
 
But it would only look bad for the med student, not the resident, right?
 
FibulaFx said:
But it would only look bad for the med student, not the resident, right?
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It wouldn't really look good for either, in my opinion. The resident really ought to know better.

Are you just asking for idle speculation, or do you have a particular reason for asking?
 
FibulaFx said:
But it would only look bad for the med student, not the resident, right?
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No, it wouldn't. There would be damage to both reputations. But in situations where there is possible abuse of a position of power in a relationship, things tend to look worse for the person who's higher up. Go ask DSK.

If residents at your program have any say in which students get a spot, it looks unprofessional and a bit sleazy to get involved with an applicant.

Why don't you just wait until match day? If she gets a spot with you, there'll be lots of time to get to know each other then. If she doesn't, she'll probably move so far away that the relationship isn't viable anyhow.
 
Just don't do it. There's way too many potential catastrophes. We had a situation similar to this at our program and my first thought was "If this chick is evil doesn't get a spot she can go to the GME office and file a complaint/lawsuit claiming she was promised a spot in return for sexual favors."

We currently have two attendings at our program who went out/broke up, and they HATE each other. He constantly bad mouths her. It makes for some awkward situations.

In any case, seriously, this chick can't be awesome enough to warrant the potential headaches.
 
But no one can prove anything. If the chick wants to file a GME complaint like that, you can always point out that it wasn't until after the actual rotation ended that you guys ever hooked up. And that it was consensual and mutual.
 
FibulaFx said:
But no one can prove anything. If the chick wants to file a GME complaint like that, you can always point out that it wasn't until after the actual rotation ended that you guys ever hooked up. And that it was consensual and mutual.
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If you didn't want to listen to anyone else's advice, then why even bother to ask the question? 😕

Dude, it's a bad idea. Just leave it at that and let it go.
 
Believe me man I appreciate all the advice. It's just that when I think about it, I just don't get what the actual problem could be. Both people can always deny anything easily
 
FibulaFx said:
Believe me man I appreciate all the advice. It's just that when I think about it, I just don't get what the actual problem could be. Both people can always deny anything easily
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Just because you deny it does NOT mean that the PD/dean/school has to give you the benefit of the doubt. They're likely not going to, in fact.

When I was a med student, there was a rumor that someone in my class became involved with a (married) resident in the field that my classmate was considering. I don't know if those rumors were true, but I CAN tell you that it became fairly common knowledge that those rumors were the reason that my classmate was not ranked.
 
FibulaFx said:
Believe me man I appreciate all the advice. It's just that when I think about it, I just don't get what the actual problem could be.
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This is what the actual problem could be. The fact that you have no possible idea what professional/legal/financial consequences this kind of situation might have for you is the actual problem.

This reminds me of something that went down with this kid I went to high school with. One summer, while he's in college, he hooks up with and has sex with a girl who was underage at the time (although he didn't ask and she didn't tell). When her parents found out, they pressed charges against him. He admitted that he had sex with her but didn't know that she was underage and the judge was reportedly going to let him off with a misdemeanor and some community service. But when he asked, prior to handing down his judgement and sentence, whether this guy had anything else to say, he said, "I just don't see what the big deal was, so what if she was underage, it was consensual." So he wound up with a felony sex crime conviction, 6 months in prison and a 10 year requirement to register as a sex offender.

I am in no way saying that your situation is the same but you are clearly showing the kind of clear"head"ed judgement this fellow did.
 
So #1 is alright, but 0 people are down with #2? Dude why would the chick even go to the administration though cause then she'd look as guilty as the resident. & again why should it be bad for either one if they're not on a rotation... I don't get this
 
FibulaFx said:
So #1 is alright, but 0 people are down with #2? Dude why would the chick even go to the administration though cause then she'd look as guilty as the resident. & again why should it be bad for either one if they're not on a rotation... I don't get this
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you wait until after the interview process is done, match day is complete, and there's no longer a power inequality. It's obvious that you're not going to "get it" so either take the advice or don't. Keep in mind that everyone on this board is in agreement, and that everyone else will be judging you.
 
agree with others. dating med student you have power over is bad idea. that said, i know of a med school classmate who dated a resident, and i think they're now engaged. i sure as hell wouldn't have done it though.
 
but were those two in same specialty with her working under him then applying @ his program?
 
FibulaFx said:
but were those two in same specialty with her working under him then applying @ his program?
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yes. i'll repeat what others have said and point out you can do whatever you want, but don't you think that the fact that everyone who has responded thus far has said this would be unprorfessional has any merit?
 
Obviously he is dating a med student and doesn't want to end it due to it being unprofessional. If this is true, good luck my friend. If not, I hope none of the stated scenarios happen if you do decide to date one.
 
FibulaFx said:
So #1 is alright, but 0 people are down with #2? Dude why would the chick even go to the administration though cause then she'd look as guilty as the resident. & again why should it be bad for either one if they're not on a rotation... I don't get this
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I wouldn't even say #1 is alright. In a lot of programs chief resident evaluate the residents under them, have a voice in contract non renewals etc. In both cases there is a supervisor employee/potential hire relationship such that courts would deem it to have the potential for sexual harassment. In pretty much every hospital handbook there is going to be some form of language making it inapproppriate to engage in this kind of fraternization, because it opens the hospital up to liability. The short answer is this isn't a good part of the hospital to pan for dates. Best to look outside of the department. Ideally outside of the hospital, but at least target folks you don't have a working relationship with.
 
FibulaFx said:
Believe me man I appreciate all the advice. It's just that when I think about it, I just don't get what the actual problem could be. Both people can always deny anything easily
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When the med student doesn't get the residency spot and/or you guys break up and she's pissed, suddenly denying everything isn't going to be a mutual thing.
 
Maybe sleep deprivation is taking over my brain, but i still don't know why the PD would be ticked off if the chick isn't working under the resident anymore & he's not on selection committee. How is it any different than if 2 people were married & the husband started residency a year early then the wife wanted to match into same program? Just happened at my buddy's hospital
 
FibulaFx said:
Maybe sleep deprivation is taking over my brain, but i still don't know why the PD would be ticked off if the chick isn't working under the resident anymore & he's not on selection committee. How is it any different than if 2 people were married & the husband started residency a year early then the wife wanted to match into same program? Just happened at my buddy's hospital
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Maybe I'm reading into your wording a little too much, but there's some inherent misogyny in your statements? Resident and "the chick?" You're using your brain to look for reasons to excuse the behavior, rather than looking for the ways it could go really wrong. 2 people dating in a program seems fine, but if it goes wrong it just creates headaches. Forget the supervisory issue (which is a big one and becomes just another scheduling headache for the PD to avoid them working together), think about when 2 people split if it isn't mutual, if one person is bitter, if people split the group of residents into sides. Think about resident social events, group events, and the awkwardness of being at the same function but having to avoid the other. Residencies have enough drama as it is. PD's usually don't look for places where they can add more.
 
FibulaFx said:
Maybe sleep deprivation is taking over my brain, but i still don't know why the PD would be ticked off if the chick isn't working under the resident anymore & he's not on selection committee. How is it any different than if 2 people were married & the husband started residency a year early then the wife wanted to match into same program? Just happened at my buddy's hospital
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First, a lot of PDs wouldn't take two spouses into the same program if they could avoid it. Second, it's hugely different if the couple is already married before they assume a supervisor - supervisee relationship. You have to focus on the POTENTIAL for abuse in the situation, because the law sure does. Focus on how things will play out when the relationship sours and the supervisee feels wronged (even for things that happened a year ago) and starts talking to lawyers, because that's where the trouble lies. It's a slam dunk big money harassment lawsuit if a supervisee claims s/he was fired/not hired/abused/given a worse schedule/treated badly by the other residents/etc after a breakup. No PD wants to be on that road, and you really don't either.
 
I spent a little time on the hospital legal ethics committee...I think I know the drift of your post

do residents/attendings/students sleep around/affairs...even on interviews or rotations? yes
does it get serious? sometimes
will anyone "forbid you from dating"? no
does it go to far sometimes? yes
can anyone including wives/husbands, other staff members, get sour grapes and complain? yes
does the GME get involved? as little as possible

anytime you sleep with someone in the hospital, whether it's nursing/medicine, superior/junior, married/single....it's always a legal risk somewhere down the line. usually nothing happens and it's no big deal but every once in a while a form is filed and a paper trail ensues
 
Someone has never worked somewhere with an HR department to give the "what is sexual harassment?" talk...

... the answer is usually "It depends"
 
Mattchiavelli said:
Someone has never worked somewhere with an HR department to give the "what is sexual harassment?" talk...

... the answer is usually "It depends"
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If you are having a sexual relationship with a supervisee and it goes sour, the answer is rarely "it depends". The answer is usually " how quickly and quietly can we pay this person". You do not want to get involved in a he said/she said situation where you are in a supervisory position and having sexual relationship with a supervisee/employee/med student because every judge and juror is going to err on the side of the person not in a position of authority. All the victim really has to do is say you exploited your authority for sex and it becomes a problem for you and the hospital. The hospital will find it much easier to settle with the victim than to hear your side of it, or let you clear your name in court. Which is why many HR manuals and hospital policies have rules prohibiting this kind of fraternization. It can be a big black mark in your file if the hospital has to defend itself in a harrassment lawsuit because of you.
 
Don't worry about being the first person that cannot grasp the idea of what happens when relationships go south. Ask John Edwards, maybe he can tell you what can happen.

Seriously though, there has not been one person on here that has said it sounds like a good idea. It's just a bad idea. I have always had a personal policy about not dating anyone that I work with. Luckily I don't have to worry about that anymore, but the potential headaches just aren't worth it. Don't do it. Especially if you are a resident and they are a medical student.
 
TrustMe said:
Seriously though, there has not been one person on here that has said it sounds like a good idea.
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This. There are plenty of bad ideas that still get followed through on, but it doesn't mean they aren't still bad ideas. Running afoul of HR is the easiest way to getting bounced from a residency position.
 
lots of theoretical stuff, which is still helpful, but does anyone have actual real life examples
 
smq123 said:
Just because you deny it does NOT mean that the PD/dean/school has to give you the benefit of the doubt. They're likely not going to, in fact.

When I was a med student, there was a rumor that someone in my class became involved with a (married) resident in the field that my classmate was considering. I don't know if those rumors were true, but I CAN tell you that it became fairly common knowledge that those rumors were the reason that my classmate was not ranked.
Click to expand...

from earlier in your thread. I'm waiting for the reply of "I really don't get this", "can someone give me a different real life example" or "i must be missing something because..."
 
Rendar5 said:
from earlier in your thread. I'm waiting for the reply of "I really don't get this", "can someone give me a different real life example" or "i must be missing something because..."
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yes, I realize that a few real-life examples were given b4. my post should have been phrased "are there any more?" my bad man just on the fence
 
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FibulaFx said:
yes, I realize that a few real-life examples were given b4. my post should have been phrased "are there any more?" my bad man
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:lame:

How many more do you need?

If a patient came to you and said, "So I heard one story about someone dying from a heroin overdose. Are there any more stories, before I decide that becoming addicted to heroin is a bad idea?", would your response be like, "Ok, sure, let me think of some more examples..."?
 
just curious about people's experiences
 
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since you seem to want it so bad, i'll put it in writing: go ahead and date someone below you. nothing bad will ever come of it. you'll end up having awesome sex for months and then will fall madly in love, get married, and make lots of babies (and money, you're both doctors, right?) together forever.
 
FibulaFx said:
but were those two in same specialty with her working under him then applying @ his program?
Click to expand...

i know of a classmate who dated one of the residents in the specialty that they're both in now. they got married and had a kid. the resident is now an attending and s/he is a resident at the same school the classmate worked hard and wasn't automatically not ranked just b/c the sig other is an attending and they dated as med student and resident. so it does happen and can end happily for both though i guess in most cases, its not advisable and would prob go the other way.
 
It depends on where you work. Where I did residency, there was a policy that one should not be dating anyone below him/her in the hierarchy. However, one of the medicine chief residents was dating a 3rd year medical student, which was a total conflict of interest since the medicine chief did a lot of med student teaching and would be involved with grading students...not sure if he bowed out on evaluating her. This person I think got away with it probably because nobody cared and wanted to get involved, and/or since he was one of the Golden Boy types that the program director and dept. chair liked. I'm not sure how that relationship turned out.

There were 2 IM residents in my program who were married to each other and couples matched. There was no power differential there, obviously, since they were the same PGY year and married to each other.

My current hospital is not very hierarchical and doesn't seem to care if people are dating. People also dress more informally, are not very prompt/on time all the time, and lower down people talk back/debate/discuss far more with superiors than other placed I have worked. Part of this has to do with your hospital/workplace culture.

A resident dating a medical student is potentially a problem, if the person works under you. I think that you should definitely not do it while the person is rotating with/under you. If she/he is finished then you could consider it but I would suggest keeping a low profile - would not discuss the relationship at work, at least for a few months until you see how it would work out. I would not suggest discussing it with a multitude of other residents - you should know who can keep his mouth shut and who cannot. You had better be able to trust the person you are dating. I think the (presumably female) med student has at least as much to lose as the OP - she would run the risk of being accused of "sleeping her way to the top", particularly if entering a traditionally male specialty like orthopedic surgery.
 
dragonfly99 said:
I think the (presumably female) med student has at least as much to lose as the OP - she would run the risk of being accused of "sleeping her way to the top", particularly if entering a traditionally male specialty like orthopedic surgery.
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never thought about it but ya the sleeping-to-the-top is probably a big issue in ortho. but it'd only be a prob for that 1 program not all the other ones she applied to.
 
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despair-poster-mistakes_w480.jpg
 
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"Trust no one; expect sabotage."
Watch your back at all times.
 
So I get the idea that most of the posters here are right.
Hell hath no fury like a woman who figures out she's been "used."
 
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1) Classmate of mine who wanted Gen Surg in California. She dated a Urology intern as a 3rd year student (towards the end of the year) and a Neurosurgery intern her 4th year. Don't know personally how the relationships ended but rumors were that did not go well and about her screwing the Neurosurg intern while on the Neurosurg SubI. Planned to match in California and the match in its infinite wisdom placed her in Gen Surg at our home institution. Has to be awkward.

2) Resident dating a med student. Actually familiar with this one a bit more. The med student was shadowing in MS1 and saw the resident as an intern in the same clinic. Spit game to her and got a date for the following weekend. Dated for a year with her co-interns and her referring to him on the floor as "the boy" to try and keep it from the attendings. They broke up towards the end of his 2nd year and she was a bit bitter. She was a previously nice resident but kind of got a bit jaded around that point. Funny thing is she is a resident in a core notoriously bi***** 3rd year rotation so she was going to see him and a lot of us thought she was going to screw his eval but then I found out he was the nephew of one of the senior deans in the med school and effectively could not be touched. Found it kind of funny myself.

Interested to hear your story fibula sounds like it will be a cautionary tale.
 
I knew a guy in residency who tagged every attractive nurse over the course of three years. Sometime during his fourth year, a whole bunch of guys were out and he got a little frisky with a resident from another service. She said that he "went too far" and made accusations about him to the GMEC (which were probably pretty accurate). When her complaint became known (which isn't supposed to happen, but almost always does), a whole bunch of nurses came forward to lend their stories about his lecherous past.

Take home message: don't fool around with people at work.
 
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