Retainment Question

[Ruffian5]

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Just curious for some feedback concerning retainment in the Navy. As a Navy physician, how many times can you be passed over for CDR (O-5), before you get asked to leave the service. Just wondering as I have begun thinking I might like to stay 20 years and retire (still got a long way to go) I have always taken assignments I enjoyed and probably didn't take jobs that would strictly 'help my career'. I would hate to stay in 15 years and then get asked to leave because I can't get promoted any longer. I saw the statistics for staff O-5 last year and it was only like 50% in zone and 35% above the zone, almost zero below the zone, that got promoted. I know many great physicians that got passed over for O-5 and some lousy physicians that made it. So since these stats aren't that promising (your in zone year is your best shot and you are at 50% only), I started to worry that I would get asked to leave a few years before I would be eligible for retirement. My boss says I need to take jobs that would allow me to be an IA or that would rank me against a lot of peers, but all the cool jobs are 1 of 1 (I like to be independent). Anyway, just curious, I am really too far out to be worried, but I would gladly get out and avoid future deployments from my family if I thought I might not be able to stay anyway. Any thoughts ...?

 

[NavyFP]

Just curious for some feedback concerning retainment in the Navy. As a Navy physician, how many times can you be passed over for CDR (O-5), before you get asked to leave the service. Just wondering as I have begun thinking I might like to stay 20 years and retire (still got a long way to go) I have always taken assignments I enjoyed and probably didn't take jobs that would strictly 'help my career'. I would hate to stay in 15 years and then get asked to leave because I can't get promoted any longer. I saw the statistics for staff O-5 last year and it was only like 50% in zone and 35% above the zone, almost zero below the zone, that got promoted. I know many great physicians that got passed over for O-5 and some lousy physicians that made it. So since these stats aren't that promising (your in zone year is your best shot and you are at 50% only), I started to worry that I would get asked to leave a few years before I would be eligible for retirement. My boss says I need to take jobs that would allow me to be an IA or that would rank me against a lot of peers, but all the cool jobs are 1 of 1 (I like to be independent). Anyway, just curious, I am really too far out to be worried, but I would gladly get out and avoid future deployments from my family if I thought I might not be able to stay anyway. Any thoughts ...?

After you have been passed over twice, the Navy has the option to ask you to leave. They hold a continuation board and decide if you can stay. You can stay up to 20 years as a LCDR.

 

[IlDestriero]

I knew a really shady FP LCDR that got passed over twice, I was hoping that he would be put out of his misery. He got promoted.👎 Sad, he had a lot of concerning documented issues, some quite serious. I dreaded having to deal with him on a committee that he headed and as the anesthesiologist when he "covered" the L&D deck. He tried to get a bit of an attitude between the time he was promoted and his thankful transfer a few months later. I was having none of that. Funny, there were no repercussions to my telling him to get his head out of his ass. He was an idiot before the promotion and the scrambled eggs and another wide stripe didn't seem to make that any better. I'm sure he's still in, providing questionable care to out nation's finest.🙄 He wouldn't last a year in the real world.

 

[SPQR]

As an O-6 once told me when I was an O-3. If one Navy physician has to pull rank over another when discussing health care related issue, the former has already lost the argument.

 

[IgD]

As an O-6 once told me when I was an O-3. If one Navy physician has to pull rank over another when discussing health care related issue, the former has already lost the argument.

Very nice and very true!

 

[a1qwerty55]

Glad I'm not Navy - can't believe there is only a 50% promotion rate to CDR - I think in the Army it is like 90%.

 

[IgD]

My buddy is a Navy subspecialist who was reportedly passed over twice for CDR. The thing is he has been on 2 overseas tours and 2 deployments now. Probably I don't know the full story but it certainly looks like he was screwed. The stupid thing is of all the people who would be career Navy he would be the guy.

 

[DrMetal]

There's no cap on the # of O-6s in the MC, right? Same true at other pay grades? If so, what would prevent a perfectly able body MC (who's done his job reasonably well) from promoting to O-5, or O-6? Most of the MOs I've met have had no problem promoting.

My buddy is a Navy subspecialist who was reportedly passed over twice for CDR. The thing is he has been on 2 overseas tours and 2 deployments now. Probably I don't know the full story but it certainly looks like he was screwed. The stupid thing is of all the people who would be career Navy he would be the guy.

I've never heard of anyone with such a high optempo getting passed over twice for O-5, in any community of the Navy (might be the case if the community if very top heavy). Now, if said buddy of yours (during that overseas tour) paid for a Tai trick with a personal check, then I can see why he didn't get promoted. Indeed, we don't know the whole story here.

 

[IgD]

I've never heard of anyone with such a high optempo getting passed over twice for O-5, in any community of the Navy (might be the case if the community if very top heavy). Now, if said buddy of yours (during that overseas tour) paid for a Tai trick with a personal check, then I can see why he didn't get promoted. Indeed, we don't know the whole story here.

Maybe NavyFP would tell us what he thinks about the situation. It's possible he has a skeleton in his closet but I think the situation is pretty stupid. My friend was a total company guy. He was flexible, always tried to be proactive and never argued when it came to his choice of duty station. With a record like he had described above there is no way you could justify getting passed over. To put salt on his wound, he found out he was passed over on a 12 month deployment that was initiated from an overseas location. He was deployed from being forward deployed.

 

[SPQR]

yes... unlike the line community, there is no O-6 cap for physicians. The problem with making O-6 is that you need to do "leadership-type jobs" on top of being a good doctor. (Operational tour, Deployments, OIC tour, Chairmanship). Many good clinicians have no interest in these things and thus they are content on being career O-5.

 

[IlDestriero]

yes... unlike the line community, there is no O-6 cap for physicians. The problem with making O-6 is that you need to do "leadership-type jobs" on top of being a good doctor. (Operational tour, Deployments, OIC tour, Chairmanship). Many good clinicians have no interest in these things and thus they are content on being career O-5.

My understanding when I was in a few years back was that promotion to O4 required a pulse, O5 required a pulse and no documented "issues" and O6 required real leadership roles and ability. If you just wanted to be a clinician and dodged other admin responsibilities than you wouldn't pick up CAPT.

 

[Yellowstone]

Maybe NavyFP would tell us what he thinks about the situation. It's possible he has a skeleton in his closet but I think the situation is pretty stupid. My friend was a total company guy. He was flexible, always tried to be proactive and never argued when it came to his choice of duty station. With a record like he had described above there is no way you could justify getting passed over. To put salt on his wound, he found out he was passed over on a 12 month deployment that was initiated from an overseas location. He was deployed from being forward deployed.

Was he in-zone both times he wasn't picked up? Maybe he was/still is below zone?

 

[DrMetal]

Maybe NavyFP would tell us what he thinks about the situation. It's possible he has a skeleton in his closet but I think the situation is pretty stupid. My friend was a total company guy. He was flexible, always tried to be proactive and never argued when it came to his choice of duty station. With a record like he had described above there is no way you could justify getting passed over. To put salt on his wound, he found out he was passed over on a 12 month deployment that was initiated from an overseas location. He was deployed from being forward deployed.

It doesnt seem that hard to get promoted in the MC (to O-4, O-5 at least). Regarding your friend's case: There was either a gross administrative error (some of which can be avoided by communicating with the board before they convene),

OR your friend did something really bad. Remember, it only takes a slight little F-up (DUI, frat, etc) to derail a perfectly good career. If this is the case, then the Navy did the right thing in denying him a promotion. In any case, given the lack of info, I'd reserve judgment here.

 

[IgD]

Once get gets back from deployment I'll talk to him about it and let you guys know.

 

[NavyFP]

When the precepts for the CDR and CAPT selection boards are released, the current standard has been 80% in zone selection. This means that if there are 100 people in zone, 80 can be selected total. For everyone selected above zone or below zone, that reduces the number in zone that can be taken. So effectively, selection rate is 50-60% in zone. There is no limit (by law) to the number of CAPTs there can be in the medical corps, but there is a limit to the total number of CAPTs in the Navy. For every CAPT in the MC, that takes away from the total. Big Navy does not like that, so they cap the number we can have. A few years ago there was a push to make selection to CAPT more difficult and they cut the selection rate to 55%. As you can guess it had a negative impact on retention and they have been playing catch up to get the worthy promoted.

Getting passed over from LCDR to CDR generally means you have been graded on the bottom end of your FITREPs or you have something specifically negative. I have found it interesting over the years that marginal officers were often given jobs to improve there ability to get selected and ranked higher on FITREPs after being passed over once. I have also seen good officers transfer into high need billets and deploy frequently get passed over. The problem is that they spend very little time with the parent command so they fail to get the plum collaterals and leadership positions which makes their fitreps suffer.

 

[IgD]

When the precepts for the CDR and CAPT selection boards are released, the current standard has been 80% in zone selection. This means that if there are 100 people in zone, 80 can be selected total. For everyone selected above zone or below zone, that reduces the number in zone that can be taken. So effectively, selection rate is 50-60% in zone. There is no limit (by law) to the number of CAPTs there can be in the medical corps, but there is a limit to the total number of CAPTs in the Navy. For every CAPT in the MC, that takes away from the total. Big Navy does not like that, so they cap the number we can have. A few years ago there was a push to make selection to CAPT more difficult and they cut the selection rate to 55%. As you can guess it had a negative impact on retention and they have been playing catch up to get the worthy promoted.

Getting passed over from LCDR to CDR generally means you have been graded on the bottom end of your FITREPs or you have something specifically negative. I have found it interesting over the years that marginal officers were often given jobs to improve there ability to get selected and ranked higher on FITREPs after being passed over once. I have also seen good officers transfer into high need billets and deploy frequently get passed over. The problem is that they spend very little time with the parent command so they fail to get the plum collaterals and leadership positions which makes their fitreps suffer.

I think the stuff in the second paragraph described what happened to my friend. He deployed so much they forget he existed. The ironic thing is because of the hardship he and his family faced I think he should be rewarded with an early promotion!

 

[NavyFP]

I think the stuff in the second paragraph described what happened to my friend. He deployed so much they forget he existed. The ironic thing is because of the hardship he and his family faced I think he should be rewarded with an early promotion!

I agree, emphasis on operational duties should be considered. The guys who are rogering up to go play in the sand should be rewarded when compared to the schmucks who continually dodge deployments.

 

[backrow]

I agree, emphasis on operational duties should be considered. The guys who are rogering up to go play in the sand should be rewarded when compared to the schmucks who continually dodge deployments.

The ultimate problem in my eyes with the operational docs is that they usually end up being ranked 1 of 1 and even with a soft break-out you end up getting hosed.

The ultimate would be for the Navy to honor their theory that there are three medical tracks and promote those in those tracks equally (MTF/Operational/Research). Of course those at the MTF generally get the ESC/ECOMS/etc duties as well and those who sit on the promotion board like to see the same thing they had on theirs.....a small flavor of cronyism (loose definition) in my eyes.

 

[NavyFP]

The ultimate problem in my eyes with the operational docs is that they usually end up being ranked 1 of 1 and even with a soft break-out you end up getting hosed.

The ultimate would be for the Navy to honor their theory that there are three medical tracks and promote those in those tracks equally (MTF/Operational/Research). Of course those at the MTF generally get the ESC/ECOMS/etc duties as well and those who sit on the promotion board like to see the same thing they had on theirs.....a small flavor of cronyism (loose definition) in my eyes.

The tracks really won't happen. On the flip side though, I question whether docs who NEVER do anything operational should be given an advantage for promotion. I am looking at deploying again less than a year after returning from the sand. Should that give me a leg up on promotion? I think so. We'll see.

 

[IlDestriero]

I agree, emphasis on operational duties should be considered. The guys who are rogering up to go play in the sand should be rewarded when compared to the schmucks who continually dodge deployments.

People that can manage continually dodge deployment have a useful skill set. They can see the big picture, often several years out, and probably have leadership potential and superior manipulation skills. They should be promoted early as well.😉