Retaking a 521 (expiration)

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Goro said:
You are incorrect. Resource protection is done prior to interview. No school is going to waste an interview slot with an Adcom attitude of "they won't come here".

I believe that the OP is correct in his assessment of his plight thus far. The invites are probably coming from schools with a mindset of "we have to check this kid out".

And after the interview, when they find out the whole back story, then it's game over.
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Why would they waste an II spot on someone who would definitely be rejected? Isn't that waste of limited resource?
 
Goro said:
You are incorrect. Resource protection is done prior to interview. No school is going to waste an interview slot with an Adcom attitude of "they won't come here".

I believe that the OP is correct in his assessment of his plight thus far. The invites are probably coming from schools with a mindset of "we have to check this kid out".

And after the interview, when they find out the whole back story, then it's game over.
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Yes I think it’s much easier to convince the 1 or 2 people who review an app prior to an interview than an entire committee. Just the law of large number in action.

Let’s say 1/2 of admissions officers would let it slide and still give a high vote. If only two adcom members need to assent to grant an interview, then there’s a 1/4 chance of getting an interview. But a 10/20 yes/no vote at the final decison meeting is awful.
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
Why would they waste an II spot on someone who would definitely be rejected? Isn't that waste of limited resource?
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They didn't know that at the time of sending the II. Those schools probably saw the killer stats and app and simply thought it's worth checking out and hearing the story directly from the OP.
 
What are the odds of getting 1/13 (well I guess 1/11 now) and actually being a med student at this time in 2022? What would you put the line at at? +110, +250, +500?
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
What are the odds of getting 1/13 (well I guess 1/11 now) and actually being a med student at this time in 2022? What would you put the line at at? +110, +250, +500?
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As you know, your singular experience doesn't fit the law of averages.
 
gyngyn said:
As you know, your singular experience doesn't fit the law of averages.
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Does your school in particular typically read about IAs/convictions before extending interviews or is it filtered out from raters?

Would adding another year of consistent work (dependability) between conviction and application help or is expungement the only hope (or is even that futile)
 
2021-2022-NonTrad said:
No, they may invite you to an interview only to deem you wouldn’t actually come there after the interview
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This is definitely a possibility, but a good interviewee would know better than to signal this.

The vast majority of resource protection (which is really what it is, rather than strict yield protection) occurs pre-II. After all, if schools were really focused on this, they could all, even T10, just select candidates a smidge below who their peers are chasing and increase their yields significantly.

No school actually does this. They all want to assemble the best class possible, and they accept the fact that the best candidates are likely to have other options and won't all choose their school. This is even true at places like Harvard, Penn, Stanford, NYU, etc. No one's yield comes close to 100%, and you can rest assured there are plenty of schools that could achieve it at the expense of assembling the best possible class.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Does your school in particular typically read about IAs/convictions before extending interviews or is it filtered out from raters?

Would adding another year of consistent work (dependability) between conviction and application help or is expungement the only hope (or is even that futile)
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tbh, if you can't get in this time, you wouldn't get in next year.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
This is true. tough pill to swallow.
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It's literally not even two weeks since the first As went out. Don't you get tired of jumping the gun on declaring yourself DOA?

You declared II season over after a 3 week lull in August, and now you are declaring acceptance season over after 2 WLs in October. :laugh:

Based on your initial posts, I think everyone was surprised you received 13 IIs (and counting). I think your application is probably way better than you are presenting here, and the way you presented your IA is not nearly as toxic as you are implying.

A WL could actually be a WL, and not a soft R, since some people do get called off WLs. Also, a random 13 IIs turning into a few As by the end of the cycle (including WL movement), does not mean 1 or 2 of the first two decisions have to be As, and there is no validity to extrapolating the first two decisions into the next 11.

I think it's inconceivable that so many adcoms are wasting so much time on you just to piss away an II slot, based on your stats, to hear your story before rejecting you. One or two, maybe. Not 6, or 12. No way. OTOH, if you sugarcoated your situation in a way that does not conform to what will come back on an eventual background check, that could lead to issues later. But, two WLs in October is no more reason to panic than 3 IIs in August was!
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
This is true. tough pill to swallow.
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I predict that you will get in this cycle. I don't think 13 II's are an accident or rather coincidence that all of them didn't know about your conviction before extending it. I don't know the nature of your crime, but from my legal experience, a sealable or expungible record should not affect your licensing eligibilities.
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
I predict that you will get in this cycle. I don't think 13 II's are an accident or rather coincidence that all of them didn't know about your conviction before extending it. I don't know the nature of your crime, but from my legal experience, a sealable or expungible record should not affect your licensing eligibilities.
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Is that so? My lawyer gave me a pretty limp answer when I asked about post-felony expungement licensure. Said it shouldn't be a problem but licensing boards have more access to expunged records than regular employers. It's been gnawing at me for the past decade. Currently a second year medical student and wasn't a minor at the time of the incident.
 
TragicalDrFaust said:
Is that so? My lawyer gave me a pretty limp answer when I asked about post-felony expungement licensure. Said it shouldn't be a problem but licensing boards have more access to expunged records than regular employers. It's been gnawing at me for the past decade. Currently a second year medical student and wasn't a minor at the time of the incident.
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It depends on whether your crime is considered one of moral turpitude. In that case, you may have to disclose it even if it's expunged.
 
Would it be smart to send a letter of intent to a school that I interviewed at ~2 weeks ago. They accept a supermajority post II and I would definitely go here. Top choice for all intents and purposes. I don’t think that I will be getting into either of the free med schools due to the insanely low post II rates. Ceteris paribus, this school would be my top choice. I didn’t send a thank you note because I was pondering whether or not I wanted to frame it as a commitment to attend. Would it be bad to frame a thank you note and letter of intent 2 weeks after interviewing.

I got pre II rejection here my first cycle and somehow an II this time around. Would it make any difference at this point or is my fate sealed.

Thank you
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Would it be smart to send a letter of intent to a school that I interviewed at ~2 weeks ago. They accept a supermajority post II and I would definitely go here. Top choice for all intents and purposes. I don’t think that I will be getting into either of the free med schools due to the insanely low post II rates. Ceteris paribus, this school would be my top choice. I didn’t send a thank you note because I was pondering whether or not I wanted to frame it as a commitment to attend. Would it be bad to frame a thank you note and letter of intent 2 weeks after interviewing.

I got pre II rejection here my first cycle and somehow an II this time around. Would it make any difference at this point or is my fate sealed.

Thank you
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Is this school one that (a) forbids updates/thank you notes or (b) is located in an undesirable location?
 
MyOdyssey said:
Is this school one that (a) forbids updates/thank you notes or (b) is located in an undesirable location?
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They accept thank you notes but am not sure about letters of intent.. I have tried looking on SDN threads but I can’t find to see anything. I think that my undergrad school is somewhat of a feeder school to this med school so I’m thinking it may be best chance and one that I would’ve never thought I had chance of attending before starting this cycle.

b. Location is fine. I really don’t have much of a location preference.

Now I’m thinking that it might actually be a net negative because it will highlight my lack of a thank you note. Neither of my interviewers gave me emails but they did mention TY notes could be sent through admissions office

Could I call the admissions Dean?
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
They accept thank you notes but am not sure about letters of intent.. I have tried looking on SDN threads but I can’t find to see anything. I think that my undergrad school is somewhat of a feeder school to this med school so I’m thinking it may be best chance and one that I would’ve never thought I had chance of attending before starting this cycle.

b. Location is fine. I really don’t have much of a location preference.
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I'm not an expert, but from everything I've read, it seems premature. @Goro swears up and down that they are treated as lies and carry zero weight. Other adcoms say that they can move the needle, but typically only to move you off the WL much later in the cycle, and only if you are close to being called anyway, because at that point there is a time sensitivity to the process, and they are more interested in identifying someone who is definitely going to come than in potentially having to make 5 calls to fill a single seat.

Given that they accept a super majority, you are clearly more likely than not to receive an A. If you are not destined to receive that A, why do you think a non binding expression of your intent would overcome that? As in the other thread, it's a sign of desperation that is highly unlikely to have the desired effect (turning something other than an A into an A), but it's also unlikely to hurt you, so you should probably just do whatever feels right to you.

Given all your outstanding IIs, however, I think it's way too early to be thinking like this. If you do this and get an A that you probably would have gotten anyway, you're going to be posting in a few weeks or months asking about the ethics of reneging when you receive a better offer. Are you actually thinking about withdrawing all of your apps after you receive your first A? If not, I suggest you forget this for now, given how many IIs you are sitting on.
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
They accept thank you notes but am not sure about letters of intent.. I have tried looking on SDN threads but I can’t find to see anything. I think that my undergrad school is somewhat of a feeder school to this med school so I’m thinking it may be best chance and one that I would’ve never thought I had chance of attending before starting this cycle.

b. Location is fine. I really don’t have much of a location preference.

Now I’m thinking that it might actually be a net negative because it will highlight my lack of a thank you note. Neither of my interviewers gave me emails but they did mention TY notes could be sent through admissions office

Could I call the admissions Dean?
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2 weeks isn’t too late for a TY note.
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Would it be smart to send a letter of intent to a school that I interviewed at ~2 weeks ago. They accept a supermajority post II and I would definitely go here. Top choice for all intents and purposes. I don’t think that I will be getting into either of the free med schools due to the insanely low post II rates. Ceteris paribus, this school would be my top choice. I didn’t send a thank you note because I was pondering whether or not I wanted to frame it as a commitment to attend. Would it be bad to frame a thank you note and letter of intent 2 weeks after interviewing.

I got pre II rejection here my first cycle and somehow an II this time around. Would it make any difference at this point or is my fate sealed.

Thank you
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How would you interpret a non-binding contract from a desperate candidate????
Admissions Deans know these are lies.

Could I call the admissions Dean?

Only if you wish to telegraph your neediness and desperation.
 
Will I have a better chance of getting in post interview at a school that accepted and then rescinded or was this a pity interview?
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Will I have a better chance of getting in post interview at a school that accepted and then rescinded or was this a pity interview?
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Oh shoot, let me send a quick little text to the dean of admissions to ask. Hold up.

Back at it again with the strange, IMPOSSIBLE, to answer questions. How is anyone supposed to know this?
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Will I have a better chance of getting in post interview at a school that accepted and then rescinded or was this a pity interview?
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Med schools don't have the time to give sympathy F's.

And as has been pointed out before, getting in is 100% on you.
 
Goro said:
Med schools don't have the time to give sympathy F's.

And as has been pointed out before, getting in is 100% on you.
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This might be a bit off-topic, but do you or any other posters have any tips for students with significant IAs generating school lists? Are there any schools that believe in a chance at redemption more than others? I'm aiming to apply to no schools where my GPA or MCAT is below the median of accepted students.
 
LeeSinOneTrick said:
This might be a bit off-topic, but do you or any other posters have any tips for students with significant IAs generating school lists? Are there any schools that believe in a chance at redemption more than others? I'm aiming to apply to no schools where my GPA or MCAT is below the median of accepted students.
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Alas, no. Not all IAs are the same, nor are screeners and Adcom members.

The OP had significant red flags yet still nanaged to get, what, some 10 IIs at some stratospheric schools.

I surmise that the schools saw the 95th %ile stats and said "Whoa!! We gotta check this kid out!!!"
 
Goro said:
Alas, no. Not all IAs are the same, nor are screeners and Adcom members.

The OP had significant red flags yet still nanaged to get, what, some 10 IIs at some stratospheric schools.

I surmise that the schools saw the 95th %ile stats and said "Whoa!! We gotta check this kid out!!!"
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They see a lot of 95th percentile stats. I'm guessing it was at on top of being a HYPSM grad, athlete, and a consultant at a fin-biotech (assuming it's a good one- these positions are not easy to get).
 
Goro said:
You are incorrect. Resource protection is done prior to interview. No school is going to waste an interview slot with an Adcom attitude of "they won't come here".
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N=1 but this happened to me. Got an II at a school, then was told after I was waitlisted (and very low on the WL) that they didn’t give me the A because they didn’t think I would attend. So I think in general you are correct, but it can happen in reverse.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
N=1 but this happened to me. Got an II at a school, then was told after I was waitlisted (and very low on the WL) that they didn’t give me the A because they didn’t think I would attend. So I think in general you are correct, but it can happen in reverse.
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Just happened to me at one of my state schools....When I asked for post-II R feedback, I was told that my 'my interests in academic medicine are more fitting with 'other' schools which we thought your application might strongly attract. As such, we did not think you would attend here.' I don't think it is necessarily akin to resource protection, but is absolutely "We want them, but do they want us" type of thing.
 
2021-2022-NonTrad said:
Just happened to me at one of my state schools....When I asked for post-II R feedback, I was told that my 'my interests in academic medicine are more fitting with 'other' schools which we thought your application might strongly attract. As such, we did not think you would attend here.' I don't think it is necessarily akin to resource protection, but is absolutely "We want them, but do they want us" type of thing.
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Yeah it’s more yield protection.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
N=1 but this happened to me. Got an II at a school, then was told after I was waitlisted (and very low on the WL) that they didn’t give me the A because they didn’t think I would attend. So I think in general you are correct, but it can happen in reverse.
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It can, but that would only be when someone isn't doing their job on the front end. After all, IIs are a very precious resource. While it's pretty clear most adcoms do not care at all about wasting our time, they are pretty religious when it comes to not wasting their own.

You seem like an extremely sharp person who knows how to carry himself, so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you did not give off a "I'm too good for your school" vibe on the interview. That would be the only legit reason to put someone (very low) on the WL after an interview who would otherwise be a great "get" for the school. Otherwise, doing resource protection after the resource has already been expended makes absolutely no sense.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
N=1 but this happened to me. Got an II at a school, then was told after I was waitlisted (and very low on the WL) that they didn’t give me the A because they didn’t think I would attend. So I think in general you are correct, but it can happen in reverse.
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That's different from a sympathy F.
 
2021-2022-NonTrad said:
Just happened to me at one of my state schools....When I asked for post-II R feedback, I was told that my 'my interests in academic medicine are more fitting with 'other' schools which we thought your application might strongly attract. As such, we did not think you would attend here.' I don't think it is necessarily akin to resource protection, but is absolutely "We want them, but do they want us" type of thing.
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You also might have bombed your interview, but they can't say derogatory things directly to you. So the "doesn't match our mission" or "they won't come here" cards are a lot easier to play.
 
KnightDoc said:
It can, but that would only be when someone isn't doing their job on the front end. After all, IIs are a very precious resource. While it's pretty clear most adcoms do not care at all about wasting our time, they are pretty religious when it comes to not wasting their own.

You seem like an extremely sharp person who knows how to carry himself, so I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you did not give off a "I'm too good for your school" vibe on the interview. That would be the only legit reason to put someone (very low) on the WL after an interview who would otherwise be a great "get" for the school. Otherwise, doing resource protection after the resource has already been expended makes absolutely no sense.
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My best guess is that my stats were high for the school but not way out of range, so they wanted to interview me. But then seeing how everything was quite geared toward continuing military service in mil med, which doesn’t super fit with their mission of training docs for the local area, they decided to WL me.
 
Goro said:
You also might have bombed your interview
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Not likely. I think more akin to @Matthew9Thirtyfive's experience. Although in their case, it appears to be continuing towards military, I am continuing towards Physician-Scientist (was interviewing at an MD only school with same type of local mission). Same-Same. Mission fit is very much a possibility given I only applied for the potential of staying near family.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
My best guess is that my stats were high for the school but not way out of range, so they wanted to interview me. But then seeing how everything was quite geared toward continuing military service in mil med, which doesn’t super fit with their mission of training docs for the local area, they decided to WL me.
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I get it. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but the adcoms have kind of conditioned me to think that yield protection isn't a thing (as opposed to resource protection). Maybe another way to look at it is that you (and @2021-2022-NonTrad above) were not good fits. After all, as I am learning the hard way, it is not all about stats, anywhere, and the whole point of the interview is to try to determine fit. I've also seen the reverse, where people whose stats ARE way out of range, both up and down, receive As when they are deemed to be great fits.

Nothing to be ashamed of. No matter how good any of us is, none of us is a perfect fit everywhere.
 
2021-2022-NonTrad said:
Not likely. I think more akin to @Matthew9Thirtyfive's experience. Although in their case, it appears to be continuing towards military, I am continuing towards Physician-Scientist (was interviewing at an MD only school with same type of local mission). Same-Same. Mission fit is very much a possibility given I only applied for the potential of staying near family.
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Totally. We discussed this months ago, and you always knew MD-only was not going to be easy for you given how your app screams MD/PhD.
 
KnightDoc said:
Totally. We discussed this months ago, and you always knew MD-only was not going to be easy for you given how your app screams MD/PhD.
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Had the same problem last year. It was brought up in every single interview, and it was hard for me to prove otherwise when I switched literally months prior (and covid hit so didnt even have clinicals time).
 
Goro said:
And you would know this....how?
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It is just an honest self assessment, Goro. I think the interview went well. Not trying to be combative, just trying to provide more anecdotes to be in circulation in support of the ongoing conversation. It is possible, but I simply say not likely.
 
KnightDoc said:
Auto-II at some schools, which is what she was talking about, probably. Beyond that, it just isn't true, based on anecdotal reports.

Sure, most of them are going to have the total package, and all the reported numbers suggest their A rates are going to be very high. Certainly much higher than 40%. So, if that's what you mean by "borderline auto-A," sure.

But nothing about it is auto. They get the As because they are great applicants, not because they are mediocre applicants with great MCATs. The fact remains that every year, there are several applicants to T10-20 programs who rely on what you are posting and find themselves becoming reapplicants.

As long as we are talking about posts we are not going to bother to search for, there was more than one on last year's WL support thread from 3.9x/52x people with several IIs and zero As. It happens.

My only point here is that @gyngyn as well as @LizzyM, and I think just about all the other adcoms have said that the difference between 520 (98%-ile) and 524 (100%-ile) is meaningless to them in constructing their classes. Hopefully, they will pop in to confirm or deny. 🙂
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I was reading this older thread. In the T20, here are definitely schools where 100%+ MCAT scores are Not even Auto II. My kid was a very strong candidate in that range. I’ll define very strong candidate as one with multiple A’s in T10 and T20. My kid was not offered IIs at two or three T20s and two or three T10s they applied to. No they didn’t apply to all T20s. The point I’m trying to make is that very strong with high meats, and successful T10/20 candidates, don’t meet the criteria for all of them.
some of the schools for example want tons of research or tons of service hours that especially for traditional candidates are very difficult to accumulate.
 
2021-2022-NonTrad said:
It is just an honest self assessment, Goro. I think the interview went well. Not trying to be combative, just trying to provide more anecdotes to be in circulation in support of the ongoing conversation. It is possible, but I simply say not likely.
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1) Most people ar e poor judges of their own interview performance.2
2) No Admissions Dean is going to tell a candidate looking for feedback that they were "scary", "couldn't string a coherent sentence together"; "clearly didn't want to come here"; "couldn't stop talking over others"; "was a babbling idiot"; "would rather have an empty seat than accept him/her" ...all true comments from my Adcom meetings and other Adcoms on SDN.
 
Goro said:
1) Most people ar e poor judges of their own interview performance.2
2) No Admissions Dean is going to tell a candidate looking for feedback that they were "scary", "couldn't string a coherent sentence together"; "clearly didn't want to come here"; "couldn't stop talking over others"; "was a babbling idiot"; "would rather have an empty seat than accept him/her" ...all true comments from my Adcom meetings and other Adcoms on SDN.
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Totally agree with both of those, is a possibility and you are free to express that. However, having been there, having known my career history, and having known the program director who gave me the feedback for the last 3 years, I will respectfully assert that this was not my personal situation with this interview.
 
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Goro said:
1) Most people ar e poor judges of their own interview performance.2
2) No Admissions Dean is going to tell a candidate looking for feedback that they were "scary", "couldn't string a coherent sentence together"; "clearly didn't want to come here"; "couldn't stop talking over others"; "was a babbling idiot"; "would rather have an empty seat than accept him/her" ...all true comments from my Adcom meetings and other Adcoms on SDN.
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Yes this is true in my experience as an alumni interviewer. Granted, I usually give good reviews because it matters a lot less than medicine considering class size is >1500, but I have written a few lukewarm ones because I couldn’t see the applicant’s academic and or nonacademic passions. Even for these, I have ended the interview with something like, “I will write up my review and I’m sure the admissions committee will enjoy learning about the parts of you that aren’t reflected in the application.”

However, it is a little different in that there are no do-overs for undergrad admissions. Most (nearly all) people who don’t get in to the school, just go somewhere else. Whereas medical school admissions, it is possible for somebody to have to do another cycle of interviews. So genuine feedback is actually somewhat more helpful and I applaud the few schools who will meet with interviewees who don’t get in, but understand why all schools can’t offer feedback.
 
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