Retirement/savings goal

[Splenda88]

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Wait Splenda what are you? I thought you were one of us since you are always here lol (welcome!)

I am an internist (hospital medicine).

 

[painballer27]

I am an internist (hospital medicine).

I have seen your posts and noted that you seem to be making fairly fat stacks as an internist. Do you wish you had done psychiatry or some other field?

 

[Splenda88]

I have seen your posts and noted that you seem to be making fairly fat stacks as an internist. Do you wish you had done psychiatry or some other field?

Doing ok as a hospitalist. My job is not too bad (average-to-good if I have to be honest). Projected salary in the ~400k my 1st year out of residency...working 16.5 days/month.

I was between IM/psych... and neurology was a distant 3rd. At the end, I chose IM because it was an easier match. I submitted my ERAS application at the end of November due circumstances that were outside of my control. Did not fail any classes/exams/boards.

 

[forchinet121]

These are the types of goals we should all have. Should be the standard.

It’s not going to happen, literally virtually impossible to have that much even by 60, adopt a more realistic mindset or be sorely disappointed

 

[PikminOC]

I'm retiring with 5 million in the bank which would give $200,000 a year in withdrawals. Will probably sell my house at that point in effort to downgrade so that would hopefully add another 1.5m or so in built equity.

It seems saving 8k a month would allow for this over 20 years.

How much was your house? Yikes.

 

[PikminOC]

I’d rather not share exact numbers for myself, since I feel like I’m behind since I was focusing more on paying off loans and mortgage and had an irrational fear of investing until recently. One thing I agree with Mr Money Mustache on is that I see dept as an emergency. But at least I’ve got a ton of home equity and little in loans…

I’d happily work as long as I can, but one reason why I’d like to get out is the constant concerns about liability. That brings me down on a daily basis, every time something goes wrong, which it always does.

In other news, some attendings I’ve talked to describe themselves as “paycheck to paycheck.” And I’m like…. How?! I guess everyone in this thread is in really good shape.

Yes my friend and her husband travel a lot. So they are paycheck to paycheck

 

[painballer27]

I'm not so sure. Financial wellbeing is extremely important, as anyone who has lived poor for any amount of time will know. I think there is a point of diminishing returns though. Will $50 million in the bank at 50 be that much better than $5 million? And what trade-offs do you need to make to achieve it? That could be compromising your values by providing poor treatment for high income. It could mean neglecting your family for work. It could mean sacraficing your health in favor of making the extra money. You have to ask what you care about in life and what you're willing to give up for it.

If you want to earn high chase your dreams, but keep in mind a little balance can be a good thing.

Agreed. I grew up poor. It wasn't much fun. Still poor and it still isn't fun. Throughout med school I've had the privilege of hearing of all the exciting vacations and crazy **** that my colleagues do and waste money on the regular that I simply can't relate relate to and then they refer to me as "uncultured" lol. Am I angry about this? Maybe. But I'm not going to waste my anger, I will use that anger as fuel. I personally plan on operating at 120% of capacity until the day I die. Of course there are tradeoffs. I may have to trade everything to achieve my goals. But I'll find solace in the fact that my kids won't have to endure the hardship that I have.

 

[painballer27]

It’s not going to happen, literally virtually impossible to have that much even by 60, adopt a more realistic mindset or be sorely disappointed

Speak for yourself. What you proclaim to be true will eventually be your reality.

 

[painballer27]

I’m trying for 50 million by age 50. Goal is to never retire. I was previously into day trading type stuff but realistically I sucked at it and couldnt give it enough time during med school or residency. Now I have 2 llcs in things outside of medicine and growing those while I can in residency. Medicine is great and a good road to financial security, but if I just did this 40 hours a week outpatient I think I would off myself. Im trying to shoot for inpatient or consults work which is just more fun/interesting for me, then be able to get out without frequent calls/issues so I can do other stuff.

Anyway, it may seem grandiose but thats the goal. Work is too fun to retire completely (excluding outpatient). Would be nice to be the big gorilla in the room and be able to say “no” if demands on your time become unreasonable at a job. Id imagine i’d need a few million before getting to behave calmly like that.

Instead of hating on you and your goals, I'm going to ask how you plan to achieve them? I think that could lead to more interesting conversation

 

[forchinet121]

Speak for yourself. What you proclaim to be true will eventually be your reality.

If you actually want 50 mil by 50 becoming a psychiatrist is a horrible idea, at least go do neurosurgery if you want to do medicine but psychiatry will certainly not get you there

 

[painballer27]

You have to be in high school or something, if you actually want 50 mil by 50 becoming a psychiatrist is a horrible idea, at least go do neurosurgery if you want to do medicine but psychiatry will certainly not get you there

Not in high school. Med school. I wasn't the one that said that was my goal but I agreed in that we should be setting lofty goals and aiming as high as possible. But I will take your suggestions under advisement.

 

[PreHippocrates]

Thanks for sharing all of that! I’m wondering why no medicine again?

Maybe it's where I am at in my training. I left a work-a-day-world job to pursue medicine, and 11 years later I am finishing training (2 years post-bacc, 4 years MS, 3 years residency, 2 years fellowship), and so just now I am beginning my career in earnest. (We could split hairs about that - but... meh.) I calculated the opportunity cost (financially) prior to leaving my job to pursue medicine, and the break-even point will come a couple of years after attendinghood - but I could've have estimated the amount of life and the amount of time and emotional toil that medical training took from me. I spent most of my young-adult-life getting training for this craft, and it is just far more than it is likely worth. I could've lived another fine life in some other way, without the toil of medical training.

My guess is that a decade or more from now I'll change my tune. I'll be reaping the benefits of all this work and delayed gratification. I do (most days) enjoy the work of psychiatry and think that I am making things better for people. Perhaps when that is most of what I do, and I'm getting paid well for it, it will all seem worth it.

For what it's worth, per my memory, MedScape yearly questionnaires indicate that a large minority of most physicians wouldn't choose medicine again, though more of them would've opted for a different specialty. Though I may be in the minority (especially in psychiatry), it's not at all uncommon that people regret going into medicine. At least at some point in their lives.

You've done extremely well so far...

Just don't go crazy on the big ticket items (housing and cars) when you become an attending.

I am not a psychiatrist but I would do medicine over again... There is not that many jobs out there where you will get that kind of job security, flexibility, work 20 hrs/wk and still make 150k+/yr while having some benefits.

Good for me: I don't care much for cars (ours are +15 years old - never will have a loan for a vehicle). Give me a well-maintenanced bicycle and I am a happy person. I think the house will get folded into a real-estate move, so it'll likely be a boon (here's hoping!).

You're not wrong that medicine is a good place to land. But the costs are significant.



As for the $50 million plan - good luck!

 

[Splenda88]

Good for me: I don't care much for cars (ours are +15 years old - never will have a loan for a vehicle). Give me a well-maintenanced bicycle and I am a happy person. I think the house will get folded into a real-estate move, so it'll likely be a boon (here's hoping!).

You're not wrong that medicine is a good place to land. But the costs are significant.



As for the $50 million plan - good luck!

It's a case of the grass is greener on the other side to be honest. The fact of the matter is most people are working 50-60 hrs/wk trying to make a living in a job they for the most part don't enjoy. They are not out partying or be in the Maldives enjoying life.

I think people in SDN underestimate how difficult is it for the average family/inidividual out there to make a living. Median household income is ~70k/yr... Can you imagine raising 2 kids, and trying to be in a safe neighborhood with good schools with that income in most part of the country?

Most specialties in medicine automatically put you on the top 5% household income...

Do people understand the kind of privilege we have in which our partner/spouse can choose to work if they want to, not because they have to?

 

[PreHippocrates]

It's a case of the grass is greener on the other side to be honest. The fact of the matter is most people are working 50-60 hrs/wk trying to make a living in a job they for the most part don't enjoy. They are not out partying or be in the Maldives enjoying life.

I think people in SDN underestimate how difficult is it for the average family/inidividual out there to make a living. Median household income is ~70k/yr... Can you imagine raising 2 kids, and trying to be in a safe neighborhood with good schools with that income in most part of the country?

Most specialties in medicine automatically put you on the top 5% household income...

Do people understand the kind of privilege we have in which our partner/spouse can choose to work if they want to, not because they have to?

This is also true.
100%.

 

[lockian]

Not in high school. Med school. I wasn't the one that said that was my goal but I agreed in that we should be setting lofty goals and aiming as high as possible. But I will take your suggestions under advisement.

If you want to make money in medicine, you have to do something procedural. Heck, I would’ve gone into something procedural but my hands grow out of my a** so I would’ve likely been a bad proceduralist, and that would’ve caused it’s own problems, but as it happens I a not so bad psychiatrist. In psychiatry the only procedures are TMS and ECT and maybe ketamine infusions. Perhaps those services will become bigger in the future. But considering how financially focused you are (not a bad thing), you are probably on the wrong forum. Note, procedural does not mean surgery. It can be GI, anesthesiology, even ER with the many mini procedures they do in a day etc.

 

[lockian]

It's a case of the grass is greener on the other side to be honest. The fact of the matter is most people are working 50-60 hrs/wk trying to make a living in a job they for the most part don't enjoy. They are not out partying or be in the Maldives enjoying life.

I think people in SDN underestimate how difficult is it for the average family/inidividual out there to make a living. Median household income is ~70k/yr... Can you imagine raising 2 kids, and trying to be in a safe neighborhood with good schools with that income in most part of the country?

Most specialties in medicine automatically put you on the top 5% household income...

Do people understand the kind of privilege we have in which our partner/spouse can choose to work if they want to, not because they have to?

Yeah, how do those people with the 70k income a year to raise a family save for retirement? Answer is they don’t. They are paycheck to paycheck just getting basic needs met.

 

[Splenda88]

Yeah, how do those people with the 70k income a year to raise a family save for retirement? Answer is they don’t. They are paycheck to paycheck just getting basic needs met.

Agree...

It's a tough world out there

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

 

[hamstergang]

If you want to make money in medicine, you have to do something procedural.

It's a little ridiculous to imply that $200k isn't money, and that's a pretty easy salary to get in psych even in the lower paying regions.

 

[forchinet121]

It's a little ridiculous to imply that $200k isn't money, and that's a pretty easy salary to get in psych even in the lower paying regions.

It isn’t money compared to the proceduralists that average 700k which is who we are comparing to

 

[lockian]

It's a little ridiculous to imply that $200k isn't money, and that's a pretty easy salary to get in psych even in the lower paying regions.

I apologize. I didn’t mean to say 200k is not money. It’s definitely money and very good money, but I sense @bdoc13 has higher ambitions than that based on their posts. I meant to imply that the more lucrative specialties where you spend the same amount of time working but earn more tend to be procedural ones, because procedures are better reimbursed. That’s really all.

 

[lockian]

However, 200k or 700k salaries aside, everyone on this thread (myself included) really needs to check their privilege. Many people make 70k or less working 60 or more hours a week and that’s all they have to look forward to for the rest of their lives. Forget multiple millions, they are going to be living on social security when they retired.

Even those of us who came from humble beginnings and borrowed six figures to go to school have privilege, as we did not get here on our own. We had parents and other adults in our lives who sacrificed for us, who taught us work eithic and encouraged our academic efforts during formative years. I know if I didn’t have dozens of people along my journey who encouraged me and helped me in ways that were not always monetary, I might be pumping gas at a corner gas station for a living today.

 

[Splenda88]

It isn’t money compared to the proceduralists that average 700k which is who we are comparing to

These proceduralists often work 55-60 hrs.

How much can a psych doc make if work 55 hrs/wk? Probably ~500k.

 

[Splenda88]

However, 200k or 700k salaries aside, everyone on this thread (myself included) really needs to check their privilege. Many people make 70k or less working 60 or more hours a week and that’s all they have to look forward to for the rest of their lives. Forget multiple millions, they are going to be living on social security when they retired.

Even those of us who came from humble beginnings and borrowed six figures to go to school have privilege, as we did not get here on our own. We had parents and other adults in our lives who sacrificed for us, who taught us work eithic and encouraged our academic efforts during formative years. I know if I didn’t have dozens of people along my journey who encouraged me and helped me in ways that were not always monetary, I might be pumping gas at a corner gas station for a living today.

You must be from NJ or OR? Lol

 

[lockian]

Sure, plenty of people have it worse. But those people aren't really relevant to the discussion. They didn't go to medical school. I also know people in their 20s who didn't go to medical school who make 200k making powerpoints during business hours... talking about privilege.

They are relevant, I think, because even going to medical school or even attaining the sort of education and skill set it requires to land a job making 200k making PowerPoints are both forms of privilege. We are talking about how to make the most of our medical training, and that is an important discussion, but many of those who make “only” 200k would likely feel a lot better if they remembered how enviable their position really is.

 

[lockian]

You must be from NJ or OR? Lol

No. I just used that image as a by-word for low-skill, dead-end job.

 

[jbomba]

These proceduralists often work 55-60 hrs.

How much can a psych doc make if work 55 hrs/wk? Probably ~500k.

Locums gigs for 2-225/hr are everywhere. That's close to 600k a year with a month off for vacation.

55 hours of patient care a week of a run of the mill insurance taking practice will generate almost a million dollars a year in revenue.

 

[Splenda88]

Locums gigs for 2-225/hr are everywhere. That's close to 600k a year with a month off for vacation.

55 hours of patient care a week of a run of the mill insurance taking practice will generate almost a million dollars a year in revenue.

Exactly.

People often forget that these proceduratlists work crazy # of hours every week. I do not envy these guys/gals.

 

[NITRAS]

It's a case of the grass is greener on the other side to be honest. The fact of the matter is most people are working 50-60 hrs/wk trying to make a living in a job they for the most part don't enjoy. They are not out partying or be in the Maldives enjoying life.

I think people in SDN underestimate how difficult is it for the average family/inidividual out there to make a living. Median household income is ~70k/yr... Can you imagine raising 2 kids, and trying to be in a safe neighborhood with good schools with that income in most part of the country?

Most specialties in medicine automatically put you on the top 5% household income...

Do people understand the kind of privilege we have in which our partner/spouse can choose to work if they want to, not because they have to?

Most of the country this isn’t unrealistic. Your house value will be less, you have less $$ in cars. Public schools are decent most places. Don’t eat out but occasionally. Inexpensive vacations once a year or so. The last couple years have been bad because their buying power dropped signficantly, and things like gas/electricity take up a much higher % of income than the upper classes. But dad grew up poor. My wife grew up frugal.

1/3 of millionaires never make 6 figures. One of the 5 most common job of a millionaire is teacher.

Now if you live in particular markets of large cities with extremely expensive real estate. . . .

 

[Desired Member]

Great to hear so many psychiatrists interested in FI-re. F2/PGY5 in CAP here, and because my spouse is da bomb and worked through my MS while raising kids, we are debt free before I have an attending job next year. Will be moving, but home has about $160k in equity, which will likely transition to another house or real-estate purchase.
With moonlighting and spouse working very PT now we are grossing about $125k per year, and maxing out Roths/401ks, so saving at least $52k per year… likely a little more.
We are frugal, but prioritize our (3!) kids’ education, so it’s private til at least HS. We also just took a vacation to Europe, so it’s not like we are really suffering over here. This is all in a Medium/High-COL area.

Current investments are at about $240k (was $275k at the beginning of the year), 100% total stock market index and evidently my spouse and I have guts of steal, because there’s never been a consideration of selling. I’m thinking I should leave fellowship with about $300k invested (all retirement accounts). The Market will decide if I’m right.

First attending job I’m looking at for next year is starting at $270k (with a lot of flexibility which prioritizes my family life), $40k sign on bonus. My spouse still wants to work a little PT, and is looking into how we might pick up a couple rental properties and possible get pass-through tax breaks to ensure that I take even more of my pay home instead of to Uncle Sam. I’m guessing that we will be grossing something north of $320k yearly without the real-estate.

Fire goal right now is about 2.5m, but I’ll likely start very PT once we reach 1.5m (coast-FI). I’d estimate that it’ll be about 6 years into attendinghood when that happens.

I’m not complaining about any of this. I wouldn’t do medicine again, but since I’m in it, psychiatry is the best place to be.

Feeling a little like a humble brag, but my spouse and I have also worked really hard for this…. Constructive criticism or pro-tips welcome though!

Im so confused about how you paid for a house, private school and childcare for 3 kids, travel, hundreds of thousands into investments, paying off school loans while still being a fellow albeit a moonlighting fellow. Is your spouse a CEO or something lol? This is definitely a personal question and dont expect an answer but I’m just awestruck. I have $280,000 debt from med school debt+interest, still in residency and have about 25,000 saved up (would put towards loans if interest starts accruing again). No house, kids ,investments, traveling, or significant loan payments made.

 

[FlowRate]

Im so confused about how you paid for a house, private school and childcare for 3 kids, travel, hundreds of thousands into investments, paying off school loans while still being a fellow albeit a moonlighting fellow. Is your spouse a CEO or something lol? This is definitely a personal question and dont expect an answer but I’m just awestruck. I have $280,000 debt from med school debt+interest, still in residency and have about 25,000 saved up (would put towards loans if interest starts accruing again). No house, kids ,investments, traveling, or significant loan payments made.

Average private school cost in my state is ~$12,000 per year. So $36k to kids' school, $10k on luxury europe vacation for 5, $53k to investments, $36k (estimating 3k mortgage) in house payments. Yeah, that person's wife must be earning a significant amount since we're talking about double a typical resident's take-home pay.

 

[jbomba]

Average private school cost in my state is ~$12,000 per year. So $36k to kids' school, $10k on luxury europe vacation for 5, $53k to investments, $36k (estimating 3k mortgage) in house payments. Yeah, that person's wife must be earning a significant amount since we're talking about double a typical resident's take-home pay.

Fwiw I'm a resident and on pace to make low 200s this year (residency salary included.)

 

[FlowRate]

Fwiw I'm a resident and on pace to make low 200s this year (residency salary included.)

From moonlighting or something else? I often forget that some residencies allow ample opportunity (and pay) for moonlighting because mine had very limited opportunity and the pay was "meh." And of course I knew a few people who were involved in other concurrent business ventures that were paying well while they were also doing residency.

 

[forchinet121]

Fwiw I'm a resident and on pace to make low 200s this year (residency salary included.)

How can a resident be earning 220k per year?

 

[jbomba]

How can a resident be earning 220k per year?

Cover inpatient unit at outside hospital which averages about 5k. Scheduled to do this 18 weekends. Cover another hospital overnight where I sleep and wake up for admissions but it isn't too busy. This pays about a G per shift, another 30 shifts a year. Another telem gig I do infrequently is about 1200 a month.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

How can a resident be earning 220k per year?

4th year is very chill many places. If someone wants to hustle and lose a decent amount of weekends, they can definitely make a lot of money moonlighting.

 

[TexasPhysician]

How can a resident be earning 220k per year?

Some 4th years earn quite a bit more than that.

 

[forchinet121]

Cover inpatient unit at outside hospital which averages about 5k. Scheduled to do this 18 weekends. Cover another hospital overnight where I sleep and wake up for admissions but it isn't too busy. This pays about a G per shift, another 30 shifts a year. Another telem gig I do infrequently is about 1200 a month.

It’s against duty hours to work more than 28 hours in a row so how can you cover an entire weekend?

 

[Monocles]

It’s against duty hours to work more than 28 hours in a row so how can you cover an entire weekend?

I mean... it's only against duty hours if they report. I'm sure there are many residents across this country that "fudge" their duty hours (in both directions)

 

[jbomba]

It’s against duty hours to work more than 28 hours in a row so how can you cover an entire weekend?

I go in and round on Saturday. I go home when I'm done and take phone calls from home. Then I come back to finish rounding on Sunday.

 

[forchinet121]

I go in and round on Saturday. I go home when I'm done and take phone calls from home. Then I come back to finish rounding on Sunday.

Yeah that’s against duty hours if you’re actually reporting them but I guess you could lie about it and no one would know

 

[jbomba]

Yeah that’s against duty hours if you’re actually reporting them but I guess you could lie about it and no one would know

I thought home call didn't count?

 

[PreHippocrates]

Average private school cost in my state is ~$12,000 per year. So $36k to kids' school, $10k on luxury europe vacation for 5, $53k to investments, $36k (estimating 3k mortgage) in house payments. Yeah, that person's wife must be earning a significant amount since we're talking about double a typical resident's take-home pay.

In addition to my spouse working throughout all of my training, I had a (low paid career) in between ungrad and medicine that allowed us to make a dent on debt and begin to save for more school. If my spouse were to work FT it would usually be about $70-100k/yr. Unexpected inheritance was also a small boost when we were paying down debt, but we’d still be debt free now without it.

We started contributing to retirement accounts right from undergrad, at least enough to get the match.

A lot of the house equity has to do with the increase in value during the last few years. We did not have too much equity in it to start.

—

Roughly speaking we make:
resident’s salary $70k/yr,
moonlighting about x3 per month $34k/yr,
spouse very PT $20k/yr (all into 401k).

We spend roughly:
$2.1k/mo mortgage,
$2k/mo private schools (we are technically ‘low income’ in a private school (so we get aid), and our youngest is basically in preschool which is also subsidized, so we are far from the ‘sticker-tag’ private school price),
$700 for food,
About $700 for ‘everything else’ per month. I’m glossing over taxes and a lot of other stuff, but this is ballpark numbers.

When we ‘splurge’ on an Europe trip it’s to meet family there. They pay for housing. Cash in credit card miles points (-$1k), and do mostly free things while there. That probably costs us $5k altogether.

That’s my back-of-the-envelope math, but I think it’s close to accurate. There’s certainly some luck/providence/privilege to all this.