Retrospectively (Curriculum and Choosing a School)

[FlowRate]

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Hey All,

I was thinking about something today...

1: The majority of your learning will happen outside of class.

2: If you like lecture, you'll get it at almost any school. If you like PBL (called "tutorial" here), you probably don't actually like PBL--you like studying with friends; that's not PBL. PBL mostly sucks.

3: a. Pass Fail calms down the majority of your classmates. The people who still study like crazy are just doing it because they legitimately like learning. Best of all, pass fail removes all the stress of having to learn more "stuff that doesn't actually matter" than your classmates. Pass fail means you can focus on being a mentally and physically healthy, but still well learned med student!
b. Block schedule is the best thing ever. One test every 2-4 weeks means plenty of free time.

4: People at other schools probably know more med school stuff than me. There's your grain of salt.

5: Aside from all those things, I might've chosen a full-ride if I had been offered one. But I wasn't. If you're paying for school, get what you want.

That's all. Ask away if you have questions about any of these things.

-FR

 

[Isoprop]

Block schedule is awesome. You couldn't pay me $10k per year in cheaper tuition to go to a non-block schedule school.

Also, dissection is pointless.

Also, med school is hard.

 

[jdok]

Block schedule is awesome. You couldn't pay me $10k per year in cheaper tuition to go to a non-block schedule school.

Also, dissection is pointless.

Also, med school is hard.

what exactly is block scheduling? Is it common practice in med school? And what is so good about it that you'd take on $40k extra in debt? Thanks

 

[bucks2010]

true p/f sounds better and better the more I think about it.

 

[Buttermellow]

I'm primarily considering a PBL-heavy school; the more I learned about the way they do it, the more I liked it. It didn't seem like it was just "studying with friends," but more of a directed way to self-study material and learn from actual clinical cases.

That being said, does everyone really hate PBL? Because the students appeared to really like it....

 

[bucks2010]

I'm primarily considering a PBL-heavy school; the more I learned about the way they do it, the more I liked it. It didn't seem like it was just "studying with friends," but more of a directed way to self-study material and learn from actual clinical cases.

That being said, does everyone really hate PBL? Because the students appeared to really like it....

I think a lot depends on how the particular school "does" PBL. Almost all of the schools I've been to try to integrate it to some degree. I the places that primarily do lecture with a little bit of PBL are more prone to having their students think it's a waste of time. At the PBL-heavy place I went to, the students seemed to enjoy it. And, even though it's a PBL-heavy school, you're only in PBL groups for 6h/wk -- there is plenty of time for self-study.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Block schedule is awesome. You couldn't pay me $10k per year in cheaper tuition to go to a non-block schedule school.

Also, dissection is pointless.

Also, med school is hard.

If this were facebook I would like this then unlike it just so I could like it again. Block = AWESOME.

 

[tiedyeddog]

what exactly is block scheduling? Is it common practice in med school? And what is so good about it that you'd take on $40k extra in debt? Thanks

Blocks are like having miniature classes, basically your year is broken into a whole bunch of semesters/quarters/whatever. Blocks can be broken up differently at different schools, at mine each block is ~3-4 weeks. At the end of the block you take a big exam on one day and then you're done with that block. At the end of each block you more or less get brand new material starting in the next block and just forget most of the stuff from last block. So, for example, it's like having a cardio block, a pulmonary block, and a neuro block in sequential order.

Non-block would be like having more than one class in at a time, maybe three or four, and the exams don't link up. Read as: you never get a break and will always stay in test mode.

 

[Buttermellow]

I think a lot depends on how the particular school "does" PBL. Almost all of the schools I've been to try to integrate it to some degree. I the places that primarily do lecture with a little bit of PBL are more prone to having their students think it's a waste of time. At the PBL-heavy place I went to, the students seemed to enjoy it. And, even though it's a PBL-heavy school, you're only in PBL groups for 6h/wk -- there is plenty of time for self-study.

If this were facebook I would like this then unlike it just so I could like it again. Block = AWESOME.

Now I'm REALLY glad my top choice is also on block scheduling 😀 Just have to wait for that acceptance....

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm primarily considering a PBL-heavy school; the more I learned about the way they do it, the more I liked it. It didn't seem like it was just "studying with friends," but more of a directed way to self-study material and learn from actual clinical cases.

That being said, does everyone really hate PBL? Because the students appeared to really like it....

I give PBL a big "meh." I'm glad we only have two hours of it a week.

The problem with PBL - and what the admissions marketing people don't tell you - is that your PBL group is only as effective as the weakest member. If everyone in your group pulls his weight, does their work, and is ready to talk about the case, the discussion will likely go well. Unfortunately that's rarely the case.

The problem is "learning from actual clinical cases" is nothing more than Googling a whole bunch of things you know nothing about. Depending upon the topic, this can be insanely difficult. PBL is somewhat similar to SDN: it's the blind leading the blind with the occasional person descending from above to provide some worthwhile information. Most of the time it's people that no next to nothing teaching other people that know next to nothing.

I won't say stay away from PBL, but I assure you it's not everything the school makes it out to be.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I give PBL a big "meh." I'm glad we only have two hours of it a week.

The problem with PBL - and what the admissions marketing people don't tell you - is that your PBL group is only as effective as the weakest member. If everyone in your group pulls his weight, does their work, and is ready to talk about the case, the discussion will likely go well. Unfortunately that's rarely the case.

The problem is "learning from actual clinical cases" is nothing more than Googling a whole bunch of things you know nothing about. Depending upon the topic, this can be insanely difficult.

I won't say stay away from PBL, but I assure you it's not everything the school makes it out to be.

Yarp. PBL tends to be a game of "drag along the dead-weight group members". You get a disorganized look at clinical problems because you're trying to analyze something with an incomplete grasp of all the subtleties.

Our most effective PBL sessions have been those at the end of units where the group breaks down into small groups. We actually have some idea what we're talking about, can put pieces together, and analyze critically.

PBL is a good method of synthesis. It's a terrible method for learning.

Pre-meds, don't buy into the PBL hype. You're going to get it jammed down your throats by the LCME, but realize that you will be teaching yourself 90% of this material no matter where you go.

 

[eHombre]

The problem with PBL - and what the admissions marketing people don't tell you - is that your PBL group is only as effective as the weakest member. If everyone in your group pulls his weight, does their work, and is ready to talk about the case, the discussion will likely go well. Unfortunately that's rarely the case.

The problem is "learning from actual clinical cases" is nothing more than Googling a whole bunch of things you know nothing about. Depending upon the topic, this can be insanely difficult. PBL is somewhat similar to SDN: it's the blind leading the blind with the occasional person descending from above to provide some worthwhile information. Most of the time it's people that no next to nothing teaching other people that know next to nothing.

That sounds about right to me from what I've heard and read. Now, I know you're a first year, but what about PBL in second year? Do you think it'll get more productive once everyone has physiology under their belt?

 

[FlowRate]

Block schedule is awesome. You couldn't pay me $10k per year in cheaper tuition to go to a non-block schedule school.

Also, dissection is pointless.

Also, med school is hard.

Block schedule, yes! I should edit that into my OP. I am so glad we're (mostly) block here 🙂

I really enjoyed dissection. I like touching stuff, it helps me learn. Unfortunately, we weren't given enough time to do a good dissection.

: you never get a break and will always stay in test mode.

Which, to agree, would be TERRIBLE.

I give PBL a big "meh." I'm glad we only have two hours of it a week.

The problem with PBL - and what the admissions marketing people don't tell you - is that your PBL group is only as effective as the weakest member. If everyone in your group pulls his weight, does their work, and is ready to talk about the case, the discussion will likely go well. Unfortunately that's rarely the case.

The problem is "learning from actual clinical cases" is nothing more than Googling a whole bunch of things you know nothing about. Depending upon the topic, this can be insanely difficult. PBL is somewhat similar to SDN: it's the blind leading the blind with the occasional person descending from above to provide some worthwhile information. Most of the time it's people that no next to nothing teaching other people that know next to nothing.

I won't say stay away from PBL, but I assure you it's not everything the school makes it out to be.

YES. The people who talk the most in PBL/tutorial are the ones who read off wikipiedia using their brand new iPads (ugh, over 100 people bought them because everyone else was doing it.. what a waste of an addition to your iphone+macbook combo)

Also, the point of PBL is to learn about the mechanisms and how you arrive at the DiffDx, but you always have that one annoying group member who googles all of the symptoms and "figures out" what the disease is at the beginning of the case.

Also, the weakest member thing is totally true. I've even been the least prepared (course where I was the only one who didn't essentially learn the course in undergrad) and knew that it was a detriment.

 

[FlowRate]

That sounds about right to me from what I've heard and read. Now, I know you're a first year, but what about PBL in second year? Do you think it'll get more productive once everyone has physiology under their belt?

Just saw this: NOPE, PBL is there to help you learn the course you're in, not courses you've already taken. People will still not know things in 2nd year. In fact, at my school, they may care less because everyone is in emergency "we didn't learn things in 1st year" step 1 studying mode.

 

[Buttermellow]

I give PBL a big "meh." I'm glad we only have two hours of it a week.

The problem with PBL - and what the admissions marketing people don't tell you - is that your PBL group is only as effective as the weakest member. If everyone in your group pulls his weight, does their work, and is ready to talk about the case, the discussion will likely go well. Unfortunately that's rarely the case.

The problem is "learning from actual clinical cases" is nothing more than Googling a whole bunch of things you know nothing about. Depending upon the topic, this can be insanely difficult. PBL is somewhat similar to SDN: it's the blind leading the blind with the occasional person descending from above to provide some worthwhile information. Most of the time it's people that no next to nothing teaching other people that know next to nothing.

I won't say stay away from PBL, but I assure you it's not everything the school makes it out to be.

Thanks for the advice! This particular school had some sort of resource base specifically for PBL (I think that's what they were saying), so it wasn't all just blind Googling. But I know how difficult it is to work in groups sometimes, and how that could make PBL a pain in the ass if you get a bad group.

 

[sibitrum]

Thank you for all of the input med students. I would like to bring this up to those of you who are somehow involved with the interview day at a school with a significant amount of PBL:

Please be straightforward and honest about PBL, its pros and cons. I have interviewed at 3 schools with a strong emphasis on PBL. Despite the apparent unanimous agreement in this thread that PBL is a fairly weak method, it has been presented by the students I interact with on interview days as being a gift from god.

I don't know if this is because there is a selection bias or students just want to raise the stock of their school, but there is an apparent problem with the way PBL is presented by the medical students, not just the admissions staff.

 

[NickNaylor]

That sounds about right to me from what I've heard and read. Now, I know you're a first year, but what about PBL in second year? Do you think it'll get more productive once everyone has physiology under their belt?

I think the ONLY time PBL might be useful is to serve as a capstone course of sorts for the entire pre-clinical curriculum; by that point you'll have all the basic science down AND, in theory, come up with a differential and as a group whittle that differential down to an actual diagnosis. Other than that I don't see it being much better.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

true p/f sounds better and better the more I think about it.

A P/F curriculum being more relaxed is probably one of the more overrated things I read on here, IMHO (based on my experience). You're going to get the same mix of students wherever you go: some will be super hardcore, some will be pretty chill, some will be slackers. I don't think going to a graded system automatically means you'll be more stressed out or that everyone in the class will be super-competitive gunners. I go to a school with H/P/F grading and we share pretty much every resource we can get our hands on via Dropbox. Everyone is incredibly helpful and I haven't seen any competition or stress induced by having the H/P/F system at all.

 

[235788]

I'm primarily considering a PBL-heavy school; the more I learned about the way they do it, the more I liked it. It didn't seem like it was just "studying with friends," but more of a directed way to self-study material and learn from actual clinical cases.

That being said, does everyone really hate PBL? Because the students appeared to really like it....

I hated pbl before i'm sure i'll hate it in med school.

 

[NickNaylor]

A P/F curriculum being more relaxed is probably one of the more overrated things I read on here, IMHO (based on my experience). You're going to get the same mix of students wherever you go: some will be super hardcore, some will be pretty chill, some will be slackers. I don't think going to a graded system automatically means you'll be more stressed out or that everyone in the class will be super-competitive gunners. I go to a school with H/P/F grading and we share pretty much every resource we can get our hands on via Dropbox. Everyone is incredibly helpful and I haven't seen any competition or stress induced by having the H/P/F system at all.

Gunners are always gunna gun, but I know that for ME it's been nice having P/F because I don't have to study as much as I probably would in order to get honors. Not getting honors would beat me down - it's nice not having that even be an option.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Gunners are always gunna gun, but I know that for ME it's been nice having P/F because I don't have to study as much as I probably would in order to get honors. Not getting honors would beat me down - it's nice not having that even be an option.

That's a valid point. I didn't think of that before.

 

[bucks2010]

A P/F curriculum being more relaxed is probably one of the more overrated things I read on here, IMHO (based on my experience). You're going to get the same mix of students wherever you go: some will be super hardcore, some will be pretty chill, some will be slackers. I don't think going to a graded system automatically means you'll be more stressed out or that everyone in the class will be super-competitive gunners. I go to a school with H/P/F grading and we share pretty much every resource we can get our hands on via Dropbox. Everyone is incredibly helpful and I haven't seen any competition or stress induced by having the H/P/F system at all.

Gunners are always gunna gun, but I know that for ME it's been nice having P/F because I don't have to study as much as I probably would in order to get honors. Not getting honors would beat me down - it's nice not having that even be an option.

^^^ this is why it appeals to me.

 

[gettheleadout]

Obviously I'm not in medical school, but from my perspective of P/F grading, the mentality "I'm already at a top (20/10/5/whatever) school, why should I be further compared to my classmates when we're already all very qualified?" is valid as well.

 

[startswithb]

I go to the school that first changed its entire curriculum over to PBL and I am fine with it. I fall asleep during lectures so luckily here we have them only a few times a week and they are optional. The BEST part about PBL 3 times a week for me is that it forces me to stay on top of the material (so I don't look like an idiot in front of my classmates and faculty tutor). Otherwise I'd probably slack... Also, going in to group being able to explain something to others means you probably know it pretty well yourself. There are some group members that are annoying and try to make it seem like they know everything and are wrong a lot, but, you can just ignore them. 👍

Also, P/F no honors, no rank FTW.

 

[mvenus929]

Yarp. PBL tends to be a game of "drag along the dead-weight group members". You get a disorganized look at clinical problems because you're trying to analyze something with an incomplete grasp of all the subtleties.

Our most effective PBL sessions have been those at the end of units where the group breaks down into small groups. We actually have some idea what we're talking about, can put pieces together, and analyze critically.

PBL is a good method of synthesis. It's a terrible method for learning.

Pre-meds, don't buy into the PBL hype. You're going to get it jammed down your throats by the LCME, but realize that you will be teaching yourself 90% of this material no matter where you go.

I really, really think it has everything to do with how the problems/cases are presented. We have case discussions every week in our clinical development class, and that's more of a 'here's a patient... figure out what to ask him/her, diagnose, and treat'. It gets very frustrating at times because while our cases are supposed to have to do with what we're learning for that unit, often times we haven't actually learned the information we need to do it.

However, a couple of our morning blocks have done PBL to great success. It works when you have specific questions that you have to answer, rather than 'diagnose and treat' situation. In all these cases, we worked individually through the cases, looking up whatever we needed to, then came together as a large group to discuss our answers and why we answered the way we did. Both systems we did this in are among of my favorite systems.

A P/F curriculum being more relaxed is probably one of the more overrated things I read on here, IMHO (based on my experience). You're going to get the same mix of students wherever you go: some will be super hardcore, some will be pretty chill, some will be slackers. I don't think going to a graded system automatically means you'll be more stressed out or that everyone in the class will be super-competitive gunners. I go to a school with H/P/F grading and we share pretty much every resource we can get our hands on via Dropbox. Everyone is incredibly helpful and I haven't seen any competition or stress induced by having the H/P/F system at all.

1. I think it depends on the curve. If only 5% of the class gets honors, there's going to be an inherent competition. But I don't think many schools follow that mentality anymore, and rather set a certain level as 'honors' level... say everyone who gets a 90% or better has honors.

2. For me personally, P/F means that I don't have to stress about my grades. The grade on my transcript is a P regardless of whether I get a 75% or a 95% in the class. Which means that I don't have to spend all my time studying, and can take some time off to do things I find more enjoyable. Like reading or playing tennis or whatever. It also means, in general, that the students are overall more happy. Our school did a study in which they compared stress levels and happiness ratings (subjective) between a graded (A-F) system and a P/F system, and no surprise... stress levels went down and happiness levels went up.

Of course, our first year class is still stressing over making the highest grades possible (so their averages are higher than ours were). I think that might be a function of our personality over theirs, and we all really hope that they mellow out over winter break, because things here only get harder.

 

[Geekchick921]

Blocks are like having miniature classes, basically your year is broken into a whole bunch of semesters/quarters/whatever. Blocks can be broken up differently at different schools, at mine each block is ~3-4 weeks. At the end of the block you take a big exam on one day and then you're done with that block. At the end of each block you more or less get brand new material starting in the next block and just forget most of the stuff from last block. So, for example, it's like having a cardio block, a pulmonary block, and a neuro block in sequential order.

Non-block would be like having more than one class in at a time, maybe three or four, and the exams don't link up. Read as: you never get a break and will always stay in test mode.

This. Block scheduling is lovely.

A P/F curriculum being more relaxed is probably one of the more overrated things I read on here, IMHO (based on my experience). You're going to get the same mix of students wherever you go: some will be super hardcore, some will be pretty chill, some will be slackers. I don't think going to a graded system automatically means you'll be more stressed out or that everyone in the class will be super-competitive gunners. I go to a school with H/P/F grading and we share pretty much every resource we can get our hands on via Dropbox. Everyone is incredibly helpful and I haven't seen any competition or stress induced by having the H/P/F system at all.

It's the same way here, at we're also H/P/F (based on class performance, not on a curve).

Gunners are always gunna gun, but I know that for ME it's been nice having P/F because I don't have to study as much as I probably would in order to get honors. Not getting honors would beat me down - it's nice not having that even be an option.

I totally get that but I got over it fast. I was a little upset when my average dropped below the threshold for honors after my anatomy final, but I was also really freakin' pregnant and couldn't get too worked up over it. For our second block (biochem) I just wanted to pass. That's. It. I had no delusions about getting honors, especially with the baby at home. I have no idea what to expect with this block we just started last week, but I'm already fully embracing the P=MD mindset.

We have workshops and labs we do in small groups that I guess are like PBL. I actually find them pretty helpful. I disagree that dissection was pointless, though. I thought it was really interesting.

 

[KTD]

Personally, I think your basic sciences curriculum should be pretty secondary when choosing a school. I think you should choose the school that will give you the very best clinical education possible (although i do admit this can be a little hard to discern as an applicant). In the end, you learn the same stuff everywhere in the basic sciences.

 

[gmcguitar4]

In the end, regardless of PBL or block, do students basically know all the same material or are you saying that PBL is just not as effective and makes it harder on the student to learn everything he/she has to know? Also, you say PBL is more stressful?

What do you guys think of Hofstra's new curriculum?

http://medicine.hofstra.edu/education/md/curriculum/index.html

 

[roguesong]

1. I think it depends on the curve. If only 5% of the class gets honors, there's going to be an inherent competition. But I don't think many schools follow that mentality anymore, and rather set a certain level as 'honors' level... say everyone who gets a 90% or better has honors.

Agreed, most schools nowadays that have the honors grading system have preset cutoffs.

Obviously I'm not in medical school, but from my perspective of P/F grading, the mentality "I'm already at a top (20/10/5/whatever) school, why should I be further compared to my classmates when we're already all very qualified?" is valid as well.

True. It takes a lot of determination, forward thinking, and maybe even a little luck in order to get into a top school. By that point, you know everyone around you is super smart and has their crap together. The reason I like the P/F grading scheme is because IMO it places some focus away from "I need to study hard because I have to do better than everyone else in the class" and onto "I want to study hard because I want to be the best physician I can be". The impetus becomes intrinsic instead of extrinsic.

Our most effective PBL sessions have been those at the end of units where the group breaks down into small groups. We actually have some idea what we're talking about, can put pieces together, and analyze critically.

PBL is a good method of synthesis. It's a terrible method for learning.

Definitely. I got my feet wet with PBL in my undergrad for a couple classes, and the good sessions that we'd have were at the end of the unit when we had already learned everything. But as for acquiring new information, good Lord it was a mess. It quickly turned into "who can google the fastest without the teacher noticing".

 

[roguesong]

In the end, regardless of PBL or block, do students basically know all the same material or are you saying that PBL is just not as effective and makes it harder on the student to learn everything he/she has to know? Also, you say PBL is more stressful?

I had a similar concern, as far as knowing your stuff for the boards. I would think that one would be better off with the structured format of a block schedule where you know what you're learning, when you're learning it, etc., as opposed to perhaps what PBL has to offer, where you learn this or that if you come across it (I know some schools have a much more structured PBL format than this, but from what I hear PBL does have its moments of confusion borne of lack of structure/preparation). Yes, I understand that 75-90% percent of what you learn in school is self-taught. However, I think you'd have an easier time studying on your own coming from a block schedule (I know what chapters to read, etc.) vs. a PBL scheme (hmm.. what keyword to put into Google?).

That being said, I learned a lot from my share of PBL classes that I had in undergrad (mostly from the professor saving us from ourselves). Our class dwindled from 22 to 8, and by the end we were all close-knit, more or less bound by the fact that we all felt like *******es by the end of the year.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I think you should choose the school that will give you the very best clinical education possible (although i do admit this can be a little hard to discern as an applicant).

I totally agree with you but even as an MS1 I still have no idea how you would gauge that as a prospective student? MS3+4 were really hardly ever talked about during my interviews, and from what I hear that determines how good of an intern you'll be. You'd think medical schools would push those years more? 😕

 

[gettheleadout]

I totally agree with you but even as an MS1 I still have no idea how you would gauge that as a prospective student? MS3+4 were really hardly ever talked about during my interviews, and from what I hear that determines how good of an intern you'll be. You'd think medical schools would push those years more? 😕

Maybe they don't expect applicants to know/care?

 

[jesse120]

I totally agree with you but even as an MS1 I still have no idea how you would gauge that as a prospective student? MS3+4 were really hardly ever talked about during my interviews, and from what I hear that determines how good of an intern you'll be. You'd think medical schools would push those years more? 😕

I had an MS4 tour guide and she answered a lot of questions I had about 3rd year structure/scut/hands on vs. shadowing/etc., but when I asked how she felt her clinical years prepared her for her upcoming intern year, she didn't have an answer. After all, how could she if she's only an MS4? I felt kind of dumb asking the question afterward, but the answer is probably the most important one when trying to choose a school.

 

[FlowRate]

Personally, I think your basic sciences curriculum should be pretty secondary when choosing a school. I think you should choose the school that will give you the very best clinical education possible (although i do admit this can be a little hard to discern as an applicant). In the end, you learn the same stuff everywhere in the basic sciences.

I had an MS4 tour guide and she answered a lot of questions I had about 3rd year structure/scut/hands on vs. shadowing/etc., but when I asked how she felt her clinical years prepared her for her upcoming intern year, she didn't have an answer. After all, how could she if she's only an MS4? I felt kind of dumb asking the question afterward, but the answer is probably the most important one when trying to choose a school.

Ideally, there would be some way to assess the 3rd year stuff. That line of thinking became especially popular on SDN during my application cycle. So I tried asking about 3rd year (on the rare occasion that I had exposure to third years, or to professors), but nobody could really give me a good answer. Essentially, I agree that it's a vital statistic that's simply hard to measure.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I After all, how could she if she's only an MS4?

Most of my tour guides were MS1/2s, but I wonder if that even makes a difference if you have an M3/4. I mean, what do they even compare to?

 

[gettheleadout]

FlowRate, would you mind commenting on Harvard specifically? Is there anything in particular you think stands out to your about the preclinical curriculum there from the inside? Is there anything you would change?

 

[KTD]

Some things you can try:

-Talk to 3rd and 4th years and just ask them about their clinical experiences. They might not know how prepared they are for intern year but they can tell you things about how much responsibility they are given, if and how much they take call, if they are generally happy even as 3rd years. Most of the third years at my school told me they were loving life and third year was far and away the best year even though they were working like dogs. That meant a lot to me because third year students can be pretty miserable when they are in the thick of it at some schools.

-Just generally assess the hospitals you get to rotate at--are they large academic centers with tons and tons of patients or do they have a smaller patient population? Be careful not to get sucked by a school that is NEAR a lot of awesome hospitals--find out which hospitals the students actually rotate through. Are the hospitals private or public? Some students at schools with both said they get to do a lot less at the private hospitals than at the public ones.

-Look at the program director rankings for the school. I am not sure how valuable this is (probably about on par with other ranking schema) but it can at least give you an idea as to how residency programs view the clinical training at the different schools.

Anyway, those are some of the criteria I used when picking a school. I am just an MS2 so I don't even know yet (I guess I will never know really) if I picked the school with the best clinical training, but I can tell you that it really felt right at the time and it still feels right now that I have has some exposure to the clinical environment and more exposure to upperclassmen.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Some things you can try:

-Talk to 3rd and 4th years and just ask them about their clinical experiences. They might not know how prepared they are for intern year but they can tell you things about how much responsibility they are given, if and how much they take call, if they are generally happy even as 3rd years. Most of the third years at my school told me they were loving life and third year was far and away the best year even though they were working like dogs. That meant a lot to me because third year students can be pretty miserable when they are in the thick of it at some schools.

-Just generally assess the hospitals you get to rotate at--are they large academic centers with tons and tons of patients or do they have a smaller patient population? Be careful not to get sucked by a school that is NEAR a lot of awesome hospitals--find out which hospitals the students actually rotate through. Are the hospitals private or public? Some students at schools with both said they get to do a lot less at the private hospitals than at the public ones.

-Look at the program director rankings for the school. I am not sure how valuable this is (probably about on par with other ranking schema) but it can at least give you an idea as to how residency programs view the clinical training at the different schools.

Anyway, those are some of the criteria I used when picking a school. I am just an MS2 so I don't even know yet (I guess I will never know really) if I picked the school with the best clinical training, but I can tell you that it really felt right at the time and it still feels right now that I have has some exposure to the clinical environment and more exposure to upperclassmen.

Maybe a 4th year/resident/attending could comment on this? It sounds like awesome advice to me but to be honest with you, as an MS1, I know absolutely jack. :\

 

[MilkmanAl]

Pass Fail calms down the majority of your classmates. The people who still study like crazy are just doing it because they legitimately like learning.

Not true. Maybe some of them do, but this is med school, man. We boast some of the most ludicrously neurotic people on the planet. Most of the people who study relentlessly do so for fear of doing poorly, defined in one sense or another (bad grades, bad Step prep, etc.). Learning seldom has much to do with it.

Maybe a 4th year/resident/attending could comment on this?

Comment on what, specifically. Asking people who've gone before you for advice is always a strong plan.

The private vs. public hospital thing is a crapshoot, just like everything else. Some places will let you run free, while others will stifle you. Some will load you with more BS scut work than you can imagine, while others will be great at teaching. It varies by school, by hospital, and by attending. Again, talking to older students is really the only way to accurately assess this factor.

Program director rankings are certainly better to look at than match lists, but they're still not going to be terribly useful to you. Those rankings really only mean anything when taken by individual specialty, and chances are damn good you're going to change your specialty of choice a bajillion times during school. Also, school ranking is a very minor part of your residency application. It'd be much better to go somewhere that'll allow you to learn as you want to (i.e., not somewhere with required attendance) and bust out a few more points on Step 1.

 

[elblackwell]

Sorry for the ignorance, but what are program director rankings and where can they be found?
Thanks!

 

[elblackwell]

These more "authoritative" opinions of school rep can be found in the US News data.
More specifically, when you look at a school's profile -- they are listed under the "ranking" tab.

Thanks, I found it, but what does this have to do with a specific specialty? It seems like a general all-around score. Also, how do you interpret the score?
What would be considered a bad score?

 

[MilkmanAl]

Oops, sorry. I'm stuck in residency application land. There aren't any rankings by specialty in any concrete sense (as far as I'm aware, anyway...), but some schools are known for certain things. All schools have different reputations in different specialties. For example, UAMS is awesome for psych but beyond terrible for internal medicine. Take the two together, and it just looks average. That last piece of info is pretty useless, right? Basically, I'm saying that you shouldn't use that information to choose schools with.

 

[username456789]

My only real recommendations for what to look for in a school I give to applicants when I take them on tours:

1. No mandatory lecture attendance
2. Lectures recorded and posted online somewhere
3. Block scheduling
4. No 8-hour lecture days

As far as preclinical stuff goes, that's the essentials right there. Pass/fail curriculum is way overblown IMO, especially since most schools have something like H/HP/P/F which is A/B/C/F dressed up all pretty. And most schools still do internal rankings, which are reported on the MSPE when you apply for residency, and may be taken into consideration when AOA elections come around.

 

[tiedyeddog]

My only real recommendations for what to look for in a school I give to applicants when I take them on tours:

1. No mandatory lecture attendance
2. Lectures recorded and posted online somewhere
3. Block scheduling
4. No 8-hour lecture days

All of these get my approval. 👍

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

As hinted at a couple of times in this thread...I would say what stands out in retrospect is how LITTLE most of this stuff matters. Block schedule, PBL, how many hours a week in lecture, etc.

The institution where I am at for residency has a remarkably different curriculum than my med school did, but the students all come out of the first two years with basically the same fund of knowledge, level of preparation, and level of burnout.

In retrospect I think that the M3/M4 curriculum has way more importance than the things being brought up above, and as mentioned it is given minimal emphasis on the interview days.

 

[NickNaylor]

In retrospect I think that the M3/M4 curriculum has way more importance than the things being brought up above, and as mentioned it is given minimal emphasis on the interview days.

The problem is that as an applicant (even now as a med student) I would have absolutely no idea what to even ask about the clinical curriculum that would be important or relevant.

 

[Isoprop]

>4 weeks of OBGYN is a red flag.

God I'm not looking forward to 8 weeks of that.

 

[FlowRate]

As hinted at a couple of times in this thread...I would say what stands out in retrospect is how LITTLE most of this stuff matters. Block schedule, PBL, how many hours a week in lecture, etc.

The institution where I am at for residency has a remarkably different curriculum than my med school did, but the students all come out of the first two years with basically the same fund of knowledge, level of preparation, and level of burnout.

In retrospect I think that the M3/M4 curriculum has way more importance than the things being brought up above, and as mentioned it is given minimal emphasis on the interview days.

That's my point: we'll all learn essentially the same material, especially once everyone starts prepping for Step 1. Therefore, maximize your happiness, don't worry about small (or big, negative) differences in curriculum!

Not true. Maybe some of them do, but this is med school, man. We boast some of the most ludicrously neurotic people on the planet. Most of the people who study relentlessly do so for fear of doing poorly, defined in one sense or another (bad grades, bad Step prep, etc.). Learning seldom has much to do with it.

Oh people still study a crap ton. Our averages are near 90%. Partially because the tests are easy, partially because my class is particularly gunnery (last year's averages were more 85%ish). However, people who studied just for grades certainly do relax--it's pretty universally agreed here.

FlowRate, would you mind commenting on Harvard specifically? Is there anything in particular you think stands out to your about the preclinical curriculum there from the inside? Is there anything you would change?

I would remove the social med course. It's a distraction and a waste of time. We have mandatory tutorials which I generally dislike for reasons discussed above. There's a mandatory longitudinal student thesis project dealio that they don't really give us dedicated time to do, which kinda sucks.