Revised Policy Allows Unsupervised Labor Epidurals by CRNAs

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ProRealDoc

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How will this affect your practice?

http://anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?section_id=3&show=dept&issue_id=598&article_id=14572

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CMS Issues New Interpretive Guidelines.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ted Agres. Certified registered nurse anesthetists are specifically permitted to administer labor epidurals for analgesia and to perform “minimal to moderate sedation” for other purposes without physician supervision under new interpretive guidelines for hospital anesthesia recently issued by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.

According to Section 482.52 of the Revised Hospital Anesthesia Services Interpretive Guidelines issued by CMS on Dec. 11, 2009, the provision of acute analgesia through an epidural or spinal route during labor and delivery is not considered anesthesia, and a certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) administering these forms of anesthesia does not require supervision by the operating practitioner or anesthesiologist.

“Since local anesthetics, as well as minimal and moderate sedation, are not considered anesthesia per se, they are not subject to the CRNA supervision requirements,” said Thomas E. Hamilton, director of the CMS Survey and Certification Group, in a summary of the revisions.

However, should the physician or operating practitioner decide that an anesthesia effect (defined as loss of voluntary and involuntary movement and total relief of pain) is necessary for the safe operative (cesarean) delivery of the infant, the CRNA supervision requirement would apply, Mr. Hamilton added.
Critical-access hospitals and ambulatory surgical centers are not required to follow the CMS revisions. Neither are hospitals located in any of the 15 states that have “opted out” of CRNA oversight requirements with CMS (see Anesthesiology News January 2010, page 1).

“This is something we have been working with the Medicare agency for about five years so they could understand the implications of what they had previously published,” said James R. Walker, CRNA, president of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA). “We were pleased and felt that we had been heard when they published the changes,” he told Anesthesiology News.
Earlier CMS interpretive guidelines required a CRNA administering anesthesia to be supervised by an anesthesiologist or operating practitioner who is “immediately available”—defined as being physically located within the operative suite or in the labor and delivery unit and prepared to immediately conduct hands-on intervention and who is not engaged in activities that could prevent him or her from doing so.

“Whoever was the operative practitioner, it was putting them in the position to be present, and that was neither the customary practice nor the reality of the workplace—nor was it necessary,” Mr. Walker said. “So, we worked with the agency, and the resolution they defined [was] the placement of the epidural as analgesia more so than anesthesia, which is correct. It does bring about reduction in pain, but [is] not anesthesia per se.”

The American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) disagrees. “The administration of neuraxial analgesia and anesthesia require medical direction by a qualified physician. Administration of a major conduction block via a labor epidural can result in potentially life-threatening complications for mother and baby,” said Alexander A. Hannenberg, MD, ASA president. “The physiological effects and complications of analgesic doses of anesthetics in labor and anesthetic doses have more in common than differences.” Dr. Hannenberg told Anesthesiology News that “As anesthesiologists, we are the most highly trained experts to manage these situations.”

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According to Section 482.52 of the Revised Hospital Anesthesia Services Interpretive Guidelines issued by CMS on Dec. 11, 2009, the provision of acute analgesia through an epidural or spinal route during labor and delivery is not considered anesthesia, and a certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) administering these forms of anesthesia does not require supervision by the operating practitioner or anesthesiologist.

WTF? If it's not considered anesthesia, it's outside their scope, but then if a CRNA does it, it's considered anesthesia, without needing supervision. This logic belongs in Alice in Wonderland.
 
So now they are "specifically" allowed, whereas I guess before they were "unspecifically" allowed - because unfortunately there are places out there where the nurses routinely place epidurals unsupervised. The AANA really is a disgusting lobby.
 
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So now they are "specifically" allowed, whereas I guess before they were "unspecifically" allowed - because unfortunately there are places out there where the nurses routinely place epidurals unsupervised.

Any and every military hospital.

I'm in CA. The civilian hospitals I moonlight at have CRNAs going solo.

The AANA really is a disgusting lobby.

Yeah, they're evil. Out here in podunkville though, you can't escape the fact that there just aren't enough anesthesiologists to do/supervise everything 24/7. I don't know what the solution is.
 
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The CRNAs place all the labor epidurals where I work and I'm glad they do. Homey ain't comin' in at 3 am to put in a Public Aid labor epidural for $50...
 
This is just one more step down the slippery slope. Now Medicare thinks CRNAs don't need supervision. What's next, refusing to pay the MD for his "unnecessary" supervision?
The whole local is not "anesthesia" crap is just pure CRNA lobby BS.

If you are not supervising your CRNAs, or doing it from home, you're part of the problem BTW. I'm glad your getting your beauty sleep.😴 Our CRNAs can't do anything without supervision, and our surgeons would expect nothing less.
 
The CRNAs place all the labor epidurals where I work and I'm glad they do. Homey ain't comin' in at 3 am to put in a Public Aid labor epidural for $50...

Sorry, I'm going to apologize upfront if I offend you (and I like reading your posts), but this is the EXACT attitude that led us down to this circle of hell. Remuneration does not dictate what is medicine and what is nursing.
 
This is a fugging disaster.


How will this affect your practice?

http://anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?section_id=3&show=dept&issue_id=598&article_id=14572

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CMS Issues New Interpretive Guidelines.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ted Agres. Certified registered nurse anesthetists are specifically permitted to administer labor epidurals for analgesia and to perform “minimal to moderate sedation” for other purposes without physician supervision under new interpretive guidelines for hospital anesthesia recently issued by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.

According to Section 482.52 of the Revised Hospital Anesthesia Services Interpretive Guidelines issued by CMS on Dec. 11, 2009, the provision of acute analgesia through an epidural or spinal route during labor and delivery is not considered anesthesia, and a certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) administering these forms of anesthesia does not require supervision by the operating practitioner or anesthesiologist.

“Since local anesthetics, as well as minimal and moderate sedation, are not considered anesthesia per se, they are not subject to the CRNA supervision requirements,” said Thomas E. Hamilton, director of the CMS Survey and Certification Group, in a summary of the revisions.

However, should the physician or operating practitioner decide that an anesthesia effect (defined as loss of voluntary and involuntary movement and total relief of pain) is necessary for the safe operative (cesarean) delivery of the infant, the CRNA supervision requirement would apply, Mr. Hamilton added.
Critical-access hospitals and ambulatory surgical centers are not required to follow the CMS revisions. Neither are hospitals located in any of the 15 states that have “opted out” of CRNA oversight requirements with CMS (see Anesthesiology News January 2010, page 1).

“This is something we have been working with the Medicare agency for about five years so they could understand the implications of what they had previously published,” said James R. Walker, CRNA, president of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA). “We were pleased and felt that we had been heard when they published the changes,” he told Anesthesiology News.
Earlier CMS interpretive guidelines required a CRNA administering anesthesia to be supervised by an anesthesiologist or operating practitioner who is “immediately available”—defined as being physically located within the operative suite or in the labor and delivery unit and prepared to immediately conduct hands-on intervention and who is not engaged in activities that could prevent him or her from doing so.

“Whoever was the operative practitioner, it was putting them in the position to be present, and that was neither the customary practice nor the reality of the workplace—nor was it necessary,” Mr. Walker said. “So, we worked with the agency, and the resolution they defined [was] the placement of the epidural as analgesia more so than anesthesia, which is correct. It does bring about reduction in pain, but [is] not anesthesia per se.”

The American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) disagrees. “The administration of neuraxial analgesia and anesthesia require medical direction by a qualified physician. Administration of a major conduction block via a labor epidural can result in potentially life-threatening complications for mother and baby,” said Alexander A. Hannenberg, MD, ASA president. “The physiological effects and complications of analgesic doses of anesthetics in labor and anesthetic doses have more in common than differences.” Dr. Hannenberg told Anesthesiology News that “As anesthesiologists, we are the most highly trained experts to manage these situations.”
 
So now they are "specifically" allowed, whereas I guess before they were "unspecifically" allowed - because unfortunately there are places out there where the nurses routinely place epidurals unsupervised. The AANA really is a disgusting lobby.

Agreed, disgusting.

I think Doctor Nurse Robert is a very happy guy tonight.
 
Sorry, I'm going to apologize upfront if I offend you (and I like reading your posts), but this is the EXACT attitude that led us down to this circle of hell. Remuneration does not dictate what is medicine and what is nursing.

No offense taken, bro. You are a resident, correct? After you're an attending for 5 years see whatcha think.....
 
i am not that concerned , I believe things will move in this direction in the future. What IMHO we should keep our eye on is keeping pain MD only. I am of the opinion that this is where the $ is.....and like someone replied why would i want to go in at 3 a.m. for 50 $ for a govt dependent 16 yos epidual
 
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i am not that concerned , I believe things will move in this direction in the future. What IMHO we should keep our eye on is keeping pain MD only. I am of the opinion that this is where the $ is.....and like someone replied why would i want to go in at 3 a.m. for 50 $ for a govt dependent 16 yos epidual


You're neither an anesthesia resident nor an attending so your perspective is meaningless.
 
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so i am not a resident now???? wow i have some explaining to do to my mom for why i havent seen her since Christmas. why do u troll me?
 
Sorry, I'm going to apologize upfront if I offend you (and I like reading your posts), but this is the EXACT attitude that led us down to this circle of hell. Remuneration does not dictate what is medicine and what is nursing.

Pro - you're 100% correct - and Consig, sorry, you're totally wrong on this. Either you believe that an anesthesiologist should be involved with the care of every patient, or you don't. And if you don't, then you're part of the problem.
 
👍
Pro - you're 100% correct - and Consig, sorry, you're totally wrong on this. Either you believe that an anesthesiologist should be involved with the care of every patient, or you don't. And if you don't, then you're part of the problem.
 
Pro - you're 100% correct - and Consig, sorry, you're totally wrong on this. Either you believe that an anesthesiologist should be involved with the care of every patient, or you don't. And if you don't, then you're part of the problem.

I'm a stupid premed who hasn't set foot in a medical school as a medical student but I am curious as to what level of involvement you'd deem appropriate. There are areas where the number of docs is <<< the demand for them and mid-levels have to cover the gap. How much involvement do you deem appropriate by the supervising physician?


Sorry if my question comes across as antagonistic, it's not meant to be such. I'm trying to fill in gaps in my extremely limited knowledge.
 
Ridiculous!


Like someone pointed out...there are people that are lazy and dont wnt to do the public aid one..but then say byebye to the insured ones as well.

But forget the money part. EPIDURALS are potentially DANGEROUS! Patients are going to be put at risk as Dr. Hannenberg stated. That's the issue!

I really can't stand physicians that pimp out their nurses. The other day, I had to provide anesthesia for LPs done by the doc's Nurse Practioners. WTF? I asked one of them where the spinal cord ends in babies, she had no idea!!!! She was teaching a nursing student and waslike, just stick the needle here and feel for 2 pops!!!!

Unfortunately, when the CRNAs screw up epidurals, etc. guess what, it goes on 'our' record.
 
Here's the solution. Don't let CRNA's do anything that you should be doing. Do your own epidurals, CVL's, spinals, etc. They just don't need to be doing these procedures. If you have to come in at night or stay at the hospital so be it. As the physician on record it is your responsibility anyway. Get it in your hospital bylaws and then it doesn't matter what medicare/medicaid says.
 
Here's the solution. Don't let CRNA's do anything that you should be doing. Do your own epidurals, CVL's, spinals, etc. They just don't need to be doing these procedures. If you have to come in at night or stay at the hospital so be it. As the physician on record it is your responsibility anyway. Get it in your hospital bylaws and then it doesn't matter what medicare/medicaid says.

Agreed. That's the attitude that we, as the physicians, should adopt. Sheer laziness is no excuse to sell your profession out.

I don't get it though - if it's not "anesthesia" then what is it - nursing care??
 
WTF? If it's not considered anesthesia, it's outside their scope, but then if a CRNA does it, it's considered anesthesia, without needing supervision. This logic belongs in Alice in Wonderland.

Hahaha...i didn't catch that at first. You're right; that is some wacko "logic." Ugh - i'm disgusted.
 
Please don't troll.

not trolling whatsoever,,,just pointing out that this has been going on in rural America for a while now. For ex there are several small hospitals in rural Tn that are crna only without an Anesthesiologist on staff. The point is that the crap is out of the proverbial horse in this manner and would be quite difficult to reverse. Pain management on the other hand is MD only and if everyone wants it to remain that way, then start protecting it now instead of wasting alot of time and $ on something that is most likely a dead issue. One man's opinion.
 
not trolling whatsoever,,,just pointing out that this has been going on in rural America for a while now. For ex there are several small hospitals in rural Tn that are crna only without an Anesthesiologist on staff. The point is that the crap is out of the proverbial horse in this manner and would be quite difficult to reverse. Pain management on the other hand is MD only and if everyone wants it to remain that way, then start protecting it now instead of wasting alot of time and $ on something that is most likely a dead issue. One man's opinion.

Pain mgmt has crna's practicing solo in places in the USA with more fighting for it. Anesthesiology requires far greater medical knowledge/skills than pain management, yet we should allow nurses to do that solo as well? :laugh:
 
Pain mgmt has crna's practicing solo in places in the USA with more fighting for it. Anesthesiology requires far greater medical knowledge/skills than pain management, yet we should allow nurses to do that solo as well? :laugh:

that is a good point. All the pain clinics i am personally aware of only have crnas pushing propofol while the MD performs the procedure. No doubt that anesthesiology is what we all want to do without being circumvented by less educated individuals but at this point with obamacare on the way (maybe cant tell from day to day) I really dont have any answers and I am honestly worried what the future may hold.😕
 
Pain mgmt has crna's practicing solo in places in the USA with more fighting for it. Anesthesiology requires far greater medical knowledge/skills than pain management, yet we should allow nurses to do that solo as well? :laugh:

hahahhaa

Just dont forget..If you arent on top of your game in Anesthesiology right now, there's no way in hell you are getting a Pain Fellowship... .:laugh: 😀

Bias noted
 
Here's the solution. Don't let CRNA's do anything that you should be doing. Do your own epidurals, CVL's, spinals, etc. They just don't need to be doing these procedures. If you have to come in at night or stay at the hospital so be it. As the physician on record it is your responsibility anyway. Get it in your hospital bylaws and then it doesn't matter what medicare/medicaid says.

Exactly the policy implemented by my group. We dictate credentialing for the CRNA's and decide their scope of practice.... If the hospital objects to anything, then our sizeable (mostly MD only) group will flex some political muscle its own.
 
Hey guys...I think it's IMPORTANT that you (CA1-3) talk about issues like this to your ATTENDINGS and fellows.

I think we are doing a great job so far. I was talking to some fellows about this subject and they are realizing that this is a REAL threat. I think our generation is more concerned and active.

Keep it up. INFORM your attendings (can't stress this enough). Some of them are still oblvious and believe their education will automatically protect them from the CRNA onslaught. Unfortunately, hospitals and adminstrators and legislators appear to be less concerned about education and more concerned about economics. Both patients and us will suffer if this type of deregulation continues.

Raise awareness.
 
Pro - you're 100% correct - and Consig, sorry, you're totally wrong on this. Either you believe that an anesthesiologist should be involved with the care of every patient, or you don't. And if you don't, then you're part of the problem.

Then I'm part of the problem....so be it.
 
Pissing match with the CRNA's is pointless. The solution is clear as day. More states need to pass AA laws and more AA programs need to open. Anesthesiologists everywhere need to see this and make it happen. Diversify your practice by hiring AA's and undercut the CRNA's. This is the only way to respond to the CRNA threat.

I hear through the grapevine that a few more AA programs are opening. We need to speed up the process. This should have been happening 20 years ago and we're just playing catchup now with a lot of resistance from the CRNA's. We need to do everything we can to help it along.
 
Pissing match with the CRNA's is pointless. The solution is clear as day. More states need to pass AA laws and more AA programs need to open. Anesthesiologists everywhere need to see this and make it happen. Diversify your practice by hiring AA's and undercut the CRNA's. This is the only way to respond to the CRNA threat.

I hear through the grapevine that a few more AA programs are opening. We need to speed up the process. This should have been happening 20 years ago and we're just playing catchup now with a lot of resistance from the CRNA's. We need to do everything we can to help it along.

agree and disagree

while I agree, AAs are a better option than CRNAs we should be cautious. The goal is to have AAs in places (rural areas) where Anesthesiologists are supervising them. Also the goal I think should be to have AAs replace CRNAs.

What we DO NOT want is what we did with the CRNAs. Have AAs who currently are on our side, become arrogant and think they can replace us. This is what happened with CRNAs. Just remember, 'back in the day' CRNAs were supposed to be helpers, helping us in the rural areas and places that are understaffed. That was the 'guise' the CRNAs used. If people think AAs are going to want to exclusively work in rural areas and underserved areas we are kidding ourselves. They too will also want to be in 'ideal' locations...it's human nature.

At our dept we had a grand rounds on this subject matter. AAs are a good alternative now...BUT we are saying this because of the CRNA threat. AAs (appearing passive, and helpful now) will one day grow out of their britches, or atleast think they can.

Also lower the salary of CRNAs! The less they make, the less number of ICU nurses that will want to go into CRNA school (usually their motivation is money). Then POOF..we've also solved the 'nursing shortage' caused by a majority of nurses leaving bedside nursing to go into 'CRNA school'.

The bottom line is that we need to oust anesthesiologists that are lazy. People that want to stay at home and not come in, should be ousted. Furthermore, we as a specialty need to be more aggressive and protect our specialty in the name of better patient care.
 
Ridiculous!


Like someone pointed out...there are people that are lazy and dont wnt to do the public aid one..but then say byebye to the insured ones as well.

But forget the money part. EPIDURALS are potentially DANGEROUS! Patients are going to be put at risk as Dr. Hannenberg stated. That's the issue!

I really can't stand physicians that pimp out their nurses. The other day, I had to provide anesthesia for LPs done by the doc's Nurse Practioners. WTF? I asked one of them where the spinal cord ends in babies, she had no idea!!!! She was teaching a nursing student and waslike, just stick the needle here and feel for 2 pops!!!!

Unfortunately, when the CRNAs screw up epidurals, etc. guess what, it goes on 'our' record.


Sleep, this illustrates how MOST of medicine is overutilizing mid-level's, and the rate of that is increasing in other areas of medicine than it is in anesthesiology.

They'll see how cute that sh.t is when they start feeling the downside of that, which is inevitable, I think.

cf
 
On the interview trail it's been disappointing to see that there are major academic programs that employ hundreds of CRNAs who compete (along with SRNAs) with residents for labor epidurals, and work in ORs with cardiac and other big cases because there are "enough to go around." How can they be training future leaders in anesthesiology when they're training CRNAs to do the same things?

I understand that it's nice to get out at 4 and to not have to stick around for the 7pm belly washout, but if there's a surgical resident there, who's probably not learning anything from the case either, shouldn't there be an anesthesiology resident, too?
 
On the interview trail it's been disappointing to see that there are major academic programs that employ hundreds of CRNAs who compete (along with SRNAs) with residents for labor epidurals, and work in ORs with cardiac and other big cases because there are "enough to go around." How can they be training future leaders in anesthesiology when they're training CRNAs to do the same things?

I understand that it's nice to get out at 4 and to not have to stick around for the 7pm belly washout, but if there's a surgical resident there, who's probably not learning anything from the case either, shouldn't there be an anesthesiology resident, too?

Great attitude! I hope you land a great residency!

Obviously you'll have a lot places to choose from for residency. I purposely chose a place that doesnt have CRNAs. Believe me, your not working 'that much harder' or being worked to death.

Perhaps that's something that should be collectively done. That is, trying to shy away from academic places that train SRNA/CRNA. Perhaps that will show the adminstration that we mean business. Food for thought.
 
Great attitude! I hope you land a great residency!

Obviously you'll have a lot places to choose from for residency. I purposely chose a place that doesnt have CRNAs. Believe me, your not working 'that much harder' or being worked to death.

Perhaps that's something that should be collectively done. That is, trying to shy away from academic places that train SRNA/CRNA. Perhaps that will show the adminstration that we mean business. Food for thought.

Thanks, Sleep, I hope so too. I'm also ranking places without CRNAs above those with CRNAs. Unfortunately, despite recent increases in applicant caliber, I think many students still perceive anesthesiology as a lifestyle residency/field and view programs without CRNAs negatively. I heard "Our hours aren't that bad -- c'mon, it's anesthesia!" far too many times from residents at interview dinners.
 
At our dept we had a grand rounds on this subject matter. AAs are a good alternative now...BUT we are saying this because of the CRNA threat. AAs (appearing passive, and helpful now) will one day grow out of their britches, or atleast think they can.

I've heard this argument so many times and I don't think it holds much water. This is why. So let's assume that we produce more AA's. Then suddenly the AA's demand more autonomy. What do you have? The present day CRNA. Therefore, it makes no difference if you have more AA's because you would have the same problem as you have with the CRNA's. The cliche, "The horse is already out of the barn", applies here. If the anesthesiologists didn't want to be in this situation of choosing between CRNA or AA, then they should have kept anesthesiology as a medical-only profession and not embrace the CRNA. However, it is important to have AA's because it undercuts the CRNA's by increasing the supply of midlevel anesthesia providers and giving anethesiologists an alternative.

The fact of the matter is that the CRNA's will make more and more headway in the future. More and more states will opt-out. I make the assumption that all 50 of them will. Some tasks that were traditionally done by anesthesiologists will be taken over by midlevels. We need to accept that reality and adapt instead of wishing that we could somehow turn back the clock. Accepting reality means going on the offensive to shape the future instead of constantly playing defense. You're never going to win a game if you don't score enough. All this fuss about this or that change is like crying over spilled milk to me. We need to be aggressive, have a solid strategy, and execute. That's the only way to deal with aggressive midlevel groups.

Also lower the salary of CRNAs! The less they make, the less number of ICU nurses that will want to go into CRNA school (usually their motivation is money). Then POOF..we've also solved the 'nursing shortage' caused by a majority of nurses leaving bedside nursing to go into 'CRNA school'.

How do you lower CRNA salaries? Simple supply and demand. Ask the AANA to increase the number of CRNA's produced so that supply outstrips demand and see what they say. They'll tell you to go fly a kite. The CRNA's will lower output once they see many grads not getting jobs. A better solution is to open more AA programs which are the equivalent of CRNA's. I like to say there are 40k CRNA's and there are 40k potential jobs for AA's. It is critical that anesthesiology practices diversify beyond CRNA's and hire AA's into their practices. CRNA's won't be as aggressive, demanding, and arrogant if they worry about a competitor taking their jobs or have great difficulty finding a job. It's funny reading how shocked CRNA's are that they're not getting signing bonuses and having a hard time finding jobs. Or read about how pharmacists are coming to the realization that they're nothing more than expendable cogs in a profession really controlled by corporate MBA's. I remember 15 years ago when pharm was one of the hot fields; not so anymore. This new reality is causing an attitude adjustment on many grads. This needs to be the norm and not happen just during a recession. There needs to be enough slack in the supply so that you can feel comfortable firing an aggressive CRNA and hiring someone else with relative ease.

What people have to also keep in mind is that anesthesia practiced 40 years ago is different than today. Likewise, the practice of anesthesia 40 years from now will be much different than today. I believe that it will be more automated and the days of stool sitting are numbered. The future will be more McSleepy's and anesthesia teams that monitor multiple rooms simultaneously from a centralized location, setup and takedown rooms, and respond to situations. I think that this model favors anesthesiologists acting as leaders of the anesthesia teams than the current model which allows anesthesiologists and CRNA's to perform the same tasks. We have to move up the food chain and yes some things will be lost along the way.
 
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I understand that it's nice to get out at 4 and to not have to stick around for the 7pm belly washout, but if there's a surgical resident there, who's probably not learning anything from the case either, shouldn't there be an anesthesiology resident, too?

I guarantee the surgical resident is learning more than you in that situation. One hyphenated word comes to mind if I've been in the OR for 12 hours doing Gen Surg belly cases: Mind-numbing. After September, there is nothing to glean from those cases. Aside from playing with different tricks for emergence, timing of reversal, etc. with staples, there is really very little to do (cue urge's pent-sux-tube). The most excitement I've seen is when I'm coming in for landing and the surgical intern hands sutures over to the med student, and I have to go to Emergence Plan B. Please write back in a couple years when you've been in one of those boring rooms.


Thanks, Sleep, I hope so too. I'm also ranking places without CRNAs above those with CRNAs. Unfortunately, despite recent increases in applicant caliber, I think many students still perceive anesthesiology as a lifestyle residency/field and view programs without CRNAs negatively. I heard "Our hours aren't that bad -- c'mon, it's anesthesia!" far too many times from residents at interview dinners.

I don't follow how that is related to your desire to choose a non-CRNA program.
 
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I guarantee the surgical resident is learning more than you in that situation. One hyphenated word comes to mind if I've been in the OR for 12 hours doing Gen Surg belly cases: Mind-numbing. After September, there is nothing to glean from those cases. Aside from playing with different tricks for emergence, timing of reversal, etc. with staples, there is really very little to do (cue urge's pent-sux-tube). The most excitement I've seen is when I'm coming in for landing and the surgical intern hands sutures over to the med student, and I have to go to Emergence Plan B. Please write back in a couple years when you've been in one of those boring rooms.

I appreciate that you have experienced these rooms and I have not. My point is that I don't expect EVERYTHING in residency to be educational. Sometimes there is work to be done, and if the staffing is available, I think it should be done by a physician, particularly at major institutions that set the standards for patient care.


I don't follow how that is related to your desire to choose a non-CRNA program.

It's not, it's related to students going into the field for lifestyle, as propagated by current residents, and therefore preferring programs with CRNAs/better hours to those without.
 
I've heard this argument so many times and I don't think it holds much water. This is why. So let's assume that we produce more AA's. Then suddenly the AA's demand more autonomy. What do you have? The present day CRNA. Therefore, it makes no difference if you have more AA's because you would have the same problem as you have with the CRNA's. The cliche, "The horse is already out of the barn", applies here. If the anesthesiologists didn't want to be in this situation of choosing between CRNA or AA, then they should have kept anesthesiology as a medical-only profession and not embrace the CRNA. However, it is important to have AA's because it undercuts the CRNA's by increasing the supply of midlevel anesthesia providers and giving anethesiologists an alternative.

The fact of the matter is that the CRNA's will make more and more headway in the future. More and more states will opt-out. I make the assumption that all 50 of them will. Some tasks that were traditionally done by anesthesiologists will be taken over by midlevels. We need to accept that reality and adapt instead of wishing that we could somehow turn back the clock. Accepting reality means going on the offensive to shape the future instead of constantly playing defense. You're never going to win a game if you don't score enough. All this fuss about this or that change is like crying over spilled milk to me. We need to be aggressive, have a solid strategy, and execute. That's the only way to deal with aggressive midlevel groups.



How do you lower CRNA salaries? Simple supply and demand. Ask the AANA to increase the number of CRNA's produced so that supply outstrips demand and see what they say. They'll tell you to go fly a kite. The CRNA's will lower output once they see many grads not getting jobs. A better solution is to open more AA programs which are the equivalent of CRNA's. I like to say there are 40k CRNA's and there are 40k potential jobs for AA's. It is critical that anesthesiology practices diversify beyond CRNA's and hire AA's into their practices. CRNA's won't be as aggressive, demanding, and arrogant if they worry about a competitor taking their jobs or have great difficulty finding a job. It's funny reading how shocked CRNA's are that they're not getting signing bonuses and having a hard time finding jobs. Or read about how pharmacists are coming to the realization that they're nothing more than expendable cogs in a profession really controlled by corporate MBA's. I remember 15 years ago when pharm was one of the hot fields; not so anymore. This new reality is causing an attitude adjustment on many grads. This needs to be the norm and not happen just during a recession. There needs to be enough slack in the supply so that you can feel comfortable firing an aggressive CRNA and hiring someone else with relative ease.

What people have to also keep in mind is that anesthesia practiced 40 years ago is different than today. Likewise, the practice of anesthesia 40 years from now will be much different than today. I believe that it will be more automated and the days of stool sitting are numbered. The future will be more McSleepy's and anesthesia teams that monitor multiple rooms simultaneously from a centralized location, setup and takedown rooms, and respond to situations. I think that this model favors anesthesiologists acting as leaders of the anesthesia teams than the current model which allows anesthesiologists and CRNA's to perform the same tasks. We have to move up the food chain and yes some things will be lost along the way.


http://www.metrohealth.org/body.cfm?id=166&oTopID=166
 
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The fact of the matter is that the CRNA's will make more and more headway in the future. More and more states will opt-out. I make the assumption that all 50 of them will.


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Opting-out is related to just one thing: Medicare reimbursement.

Opting-out is only possible in the states which already, by state law, allow independent CRNA practice. About 1/2 of the states allow independent CRNA practice. The other 1/2 of the states require physician/dentist supervision of CRNA practice, thus opting-out is not possible in those states.

Opting-out does not, in and of itself, allow CRNAs to practice independently unless independent CRNA practice is already allowed by state law. And in those states who have opted-out it simply means CRNAs can bill Medicare without anesthesiologist supervision.
 
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