Rigor & Prestige & Postbacc

[romanjetfighter]

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thinking about doing undergrad postbacc at fancy shmancy ivy leagues/top tier schools (not the proper undergrad college itself but smth like harvard extension, berkeley X, columbia) do their names really carry over to nontrad colleges like the Xtensions and general studies?

do adcoms care if i take it there vs. a local state school? the state school alternative is indeed not very good, but itll be cheap and probably easier. that said, the school isn't very selective (most students transfer from CC with a 2.0-2.7) and they do not offer that many biology courses and its not known for its rigor. will an adcom pass over my app? will being in a more well known program specifically designed for premeds who need academic enhancing do the trick?

btw if it makes any difference my gpa is 3.5

 

[drizzt3117]

The only top postbac at a top tier undergrad is Hopkins. Columbia, Penn, Harvard, etc are decent (ESP the last two) but aren't as highly regarded.

thinking about doing undergrad postbacc at fancy shmancy ivy leagues/top tier schools (not the proper undergrad college itself but smth like harvard extension, berkeley X, columbia) do their names really carry over to nontrad colleges like the Xtensions and general studies?

do adcoms care if i take it there vs. a local state school? the state school alternative is indeed not very good, but itll be cheap and probably easier. that said, the school isn't very selective (most students transfer from CC with a 2.0-2.7) and they do not offer that many biology courses and its not known for its rigor. will an adcom pass over my app? will being in a more well known program specifically designed for premeds who need academic enhancing do the trick?

btw if it makes any difference my gpa is 3.5

 

[deleted248403]

The only top postbac at a top tier undergrad is Hopkins. Columbia, Penn, Harvard, etc are decent (ESP the last two) but aren't as highly regarded.

+1

Plus, OP - are you doing pre-reqs? If not, having a GPA of 3.5 - it might not make sense to go to a post-bac/SMP.

 

[johnnyscans]

thinking about doing undergrad postbacc at fancy shmancy ivy leagues/top tier schools (not the proper undergrad college itself but smth like harvard extension, berkeley X, columbia) do their names really carry over to nontrad colleges like the Xtensions and general studies?

do adcoms care if i take it there vs. a local state school? the state school alternative is indeed not very good, but itll be cheap and probably easier. that said, the school isn't very selective (most students transfer from CC with a 2.0-2.7) and they do not offer that many biology courses and its not known for its rigor. will an adcom pass over my app? will being in a more well known program specifically designed for premeds who need academic enhancing do the trick?

btw if it makes any difference my gpa is 3.5

While I don't have a definite answer, I'm going to think outloud here, and let others chime in as they wish.

In my opinion. . .

As long as the program/college/university is equal or close to the rigor of your undergraduate university it should be fine. A step up in difficulty/rigor may help your case, while a huge step down may be questioned. Think about it. Person A goes to a fairly prestigious 4 year university (University of Michigan, University of Virginia,etc.) and pulls a decent, but not med school worthy, GPA. If they take upper level coursework (at most likely a lesser load) at Joe Schmo University, adcoms may question their ability to thrive under the pressure and difficulty of medical school.

Now, let's talk about Person B. They went to Joe Schmo University and pulled a decent, but not med school worth, GPA. They know their GPA needs work so they apply to the most rigorous programs they can, and attend one that admission committees know is difficult. They smoke their pre-reqs, earning >3.7. In my opinion, this person showed that when the pressure is on, they can take a step up in difficulty and thrive. 1 - 2 years of strong performance across a variety of science classes is generally regarded as a good indicator of potential for medical school, especially when coupled with an above average (>32) MCAT score.

I think the general rule is as long as your academic enhancement is done at a program/college/university that is at least equal to your undergraduate institution, you should be just fine. A major drop in difficulty may be red flagged, and you may have to discuss it in your interviews.

I hope this helps. Once again, I'm not an expert, just putting my thoughts out there for discussion.

 

[romanjetfighter]

thanks for your input. i was thinking of being a big fish in a small bowl, or thinking an easier postbacc would help one get a 4.0 + some ECs + saving some money.

as for postbacc...i just read all 17 pages of the LizzyM AMA and read a few posts on how bad it is to be a reapplicant, that its good to apply only once, to take the mcat only once. so dont want to take any chances by applying with a borderline GPA. after all, there is no safety state school, as im in CA! :O

and no, not doing pre-reqs. was looking at Upenn's Special Science studies. and there's so many med schools around PA...maybe doing a postbacc there means showing interest in med schools in the surrounding area?

 

[deleted248403]

and no, not doing pre-reqs. was looking at Upenn's Special Science studies. and there's so many med schools around PA...maybe doing a postbacc there means showing interest in med schools in the surrounding area?

If you have a 3.5, why exactly are you doing a post-bac?

Have you taken the MCAT? There is no point in enrolling in the $10k tuition per semester UPenn SSP when you take the MCAT, rock it, and cost far far less?

Just so you know, you can't become a PA resident if you are there on educational reasons (i.e. you move to Philly to be part of SSP, you cannot then claim in-state residency for the PA schools)

And doing a post-bac in Philly, is not going to come across as showing interest in the area.

 

[romanjetfighter]

need to stay enrolled in school for health/dental insurance.. and it wouldnt be for residency just to show interest in the surrounding region aka Temple... UMDNJ.. Jefferson

and the avg GPA for temple is 3.67 culmulative.. for jeff 3.65..for pittsburgh 3.75!! :O idk if a 3.5 is going to cut for these or most CoM's

 

[johnnyscans]

Are you sure youd be eligible for insurance with a post-bacc program?

 

[deleted248403]

need to stay enrolled in school for health/dental insurance.. and it wouldnt be for residency just to show interest in the surrounding region aka Temple... UMDNJ.. Jefferson

That is a terrible reason to do a post-bac.

If this is your goal, then do an MPH or an MS in Core Science. That way you get something decent for the resume, and you get the health/dental insurance. Otherwise you are just wasting your time at the post-bac level.

UMDNJ is heavily instate focused; like 95-97% in-state. So they couldn't care less where you did post-bac if you aren't a NJ resident. Have a look at an MSAR for those kind of numbers

 

[romanjetfighter]

yes i agree, insurance is a bad resason to do a postbacc, i am doing it primarily to raise my GPA. which is a good reason, i think

graduating in 3 months but still no MCAT so just want to spend 1 year continuing studies with a postbacc @ Upenn/columbia or CSU dominguez hills and was unsure which i should pick, considering rigor of each program perception of each program.

 

[johnnyscans]

If you complete 30 credits at 4.0 your gpa will be a 3.6. I personally believe you will not be able to effectively prep for your mcat with a 15 credit courseload, especially when taking upper level science courses.

Your time and money are better spent on MCAT prep and diversifying yourself from other applicants. Join AMSA and use their student health insurance and mcat prep discouts. What do your ECs look like? Any killer LoRs? Dropping 20-30 k on upenn or columbia and not being able to effectively prep for your mcat may burn you big time.

My .02$

 

[gehr4733]

I am going back to school to take the general chemistry and o-chem series along with another biology course and physics II. I'm planning to do this at Portland State over the course of this next year. Should I push to get into a more formal program like Goucher instead? I really like the looks of Portland, albeit it is not the most prestigious school out there. Yet my thoughts are with a strong GPA, extracurriculars and MCAT it shouldn't matter that much. Thoughts?

 

[JSReed]

need to stay enrolled in school for health/dental insurance.. and it wouldnt be for residency just to show interest in the surrounding region aka Temple... UMDNJ.. Jefferson

and the avg GPA for temple is 3.67 culmulative.. for jeff 3.65..for pittsburgh 3.75!! :O idk if a 3.5 is going to cut for these or most CoM's

a) If you want insurance, get a job. You don't need the numerical gpa boost, so stop making excuses to stay in school when its serving no purpose.

b) showing interest is not the same as having residency. Unless you do your postbacc at the same university you're applying it makes no difference.

c) Average gpa for temple is 3.67....AVERAGE! As in half of the people are BELOW 3.67. Maybe you should take a stats class?

and why are you avoiding the mcat? just buck up and take it. you don't need a postbacc to get into med school, but you do need an mcat.

 

[romanjetfighter]

im not avoiding the mcat... i switched majors!! 😛

 

[deleted248403]

The more I think about this, the dumber it gets

1) If you just took the $20-30k you are planning on spending on a post-bac, you could just buy health/dental insurance and be a volunteer at something meaningful for a year. This would mean more to your app then classes at penn/columbia
2) you could work part-time or for low-wages for a non-profit, or a hospital or something, and still have better used the $20-30k
3) you could do an MPH or an MS to actually add to your resume for $20-30k
4) You could go backpacking around the world or volunteer for some organization, and still better spend the $20-30k

As a UPenn SSP grad and subsequent med student, the program would be a complete waste of money for you. That being said they would welcome you with open arms cos a guaranteed $20-30k from someone who has a fairly decent shot to get into medical school (provided a decent MCAT) is like the golden ticket for them

Honestly, re-think this. This is beyond ridic

im not avoiding the mcat... i switched majors!! 😛

And so this means you have to spend $20-30k on a complete waste of time.... I am missing something here.... who cares what your major is or was. As long as you have the pre-reqs done it doesnt matter

 

[johnnyscans]

The more I think about this, the dumber it gets

1) If you just took the $20-30k you are planning on spending on a post-bac, you could just buy health/dental insurance and be a volunteer at something meaningful for a year. This would mean more to your app then classes at penn/columbia
2) you could work part-time or for low-wages for a non-profit, or a hospital or something, and still have better used the $20-30k
3) you could do an MPH or an MS to actually add to your resume for $20-30k
4) You could go backpacking around the world or volunteer for some organization, and still better spend the $20-30k

As a UPenn SSP grad and subsequent med student, the program would be a complete waste of money for you. That being said they would welcome you with open arms cos a guaranteed $20-30k from someone who has a fairly decent shot to get into medical school (provided a decent MCAT) is like the golden ticket for them

Honestly, re-think this. This is beyond ridic


And so this means you have to spend $20-30k on a complete waste of time.... I am missing something here.... who cares what your major is or was. As long as you have the pre-reqs done it doesnt matter

This x1000. Unless you have some killer EC that you're hiding from us, the year and money will be much better spent building your application in other areas.

The absolute maximum you could raise your GPA, if you took 2 semesters of 15 credits, would be .1. .1! Your money and time is spent finishing your pre reqs at a local 4 year university, putting time and emotion into hardcore MCAT prep, and diversifying yourself from the tens of thousands of other applicants.

 

[romanjetfighter]

Ok ok you guys convinced me..i just learned about the SSP n RWJ. but if .1 GPA does not make that big of a difference, why do ppl here recommend others with 3.4 do postbacc? and why is the avg gpa of the 50k SMP at Gtown is 3.3 and mcat of 31.7? o.o or is the average SMPr at Gtown being ripped off? 😛

i already did the math and it would take 3 semesters or so to get to a 3.6 so yeah, not a big increase but was still interested in doing the postbacc to show an upward trend.

as for ECs, reading the huge 24-page penn SSP thread and others (i spent like 12-14 hours researching this thread) they seem to have lots of EC opportunities as well during the day so thats also why i was interested before

 

[johnnyscans]

Ok ok you guys convinced me..i just learned about the SSP n RWJ. but if .1 GPA does not make that big of a difference, why do ppl here recommend others with 3.4 do postbacc? and why is the avg gpa of the 50k SMP at Gtown is 3.3 and mcat of 31.7? o.o or is the average SMPr at Gtown being ripped off? 😛

i already did the math and it would take 3 semesters or so to get to a 3.6 so yeah, not a big increase but was still interested in doing the postbacc to show an upward trend.

as for ECs, reading the huge 24-page penn SSP thread and others (i spent like 12-14 hours researching this thread) they seem to have lots of EC opportunities as well during the day so thats also why i was interested before

Very rarely is it recommended that someone with a 3.4 do a post-bacc program. The only time I would recommend someone with a 3.4 do a post-bacc is if they've taken very few science classes, and can boost the heck out of their science GPA. The only time I'd recommend shelling out a ton of money for a post-bacc is if they could get into Goucher, Bryn Mawr, etc. Even then, their time and money is best spent diversifying and maturing, as opposed to working towards a cookie cutter application. If you dig around you'll notice that people with pretty good stats get rejected all the time. The common denominator: they're the same as everyone else. What makes you different? What have you done to show maturity, and leadership, and sensitivity?

Also, an SMP and a post-bacc program are very different. People who enroll in an SMP have already taken their pre-reqs and their MCAT, and failed at earning an acceptance letter. Their SMP is a last-ditch, all the cards on the table effort at earning a spot in medical school. If they screw up, that's it - game over. The 3.3 31.7 is exactly that - people who were right at the US Allopathic cut off. They could have probably went DO, but decided to go SMP in hopes of gaining an allopathic acceptance. You want to avoid an SMP at all costs.

EC opportunties are everywhere, you don't need a 20-30k/yr program to volunteer and shadow. Other than the occasional volunteer opportunity, all of my ECs are outside of my program. I found them through perseverance, networking and research. Paying $3,000 a course just to have health insurance and be hand fed ECs is ridiculous. Spend that money on a private MCAT tutor and rock your MCAT. That .1 gpa difference won't mean a thing if the rest of your application is solid . . .trust me. The average matriculant GPA is 3.6. As mentioned earlier, 50% people are below this. 50%!.

3 semesters of work for a .1 increase in GPA is a total waste of money, time and resources. That time would be better spent in countless other ways.

What classes do you still need to take? What are your ECs? Any research? Clinical exposure? How are your letter of recommendations? What is your science GPA? When do you plan on taking the MCAT?

 

[JSReed]

also, an smp and a post-bacc program are very different. People who enroll in an smp have already taken their pre-reqs and their mcat, and failed at earning an acceptance letter. Their smp is a last-ditch, all the cards on the table effort at earning a spot in medical school. If they screw up, that's it - game over. The 3.3 31.7 is exactly that - people who were right at the us allopathic cut off. They could have probably went do, but decided to go smp in hopes of gaining an allopathic acceptance. You want to avoid an smp at all costs.

Ec opportunties are everywhere, you don't need a 20-30k/yr program to volunteer and shadow. Other than the occasional volunteer opportunity, all of my ecs are outside of my program. I found them through perseverance, networking and research. Paying $3,000 a course just to have health insurance and be hand fed ecs is ridiculous. Spend that money on a private mcat tutor and rock your mcat. That .1 gpa difference won't mean a thing if the rest of your application is solid . . .trust me. The average matriculant gpa is 3.6. As mentioned earlier, 50% people are below this. 50%!.

amen!

 

[exercise]

i just read all 17 pages of the lizzyM AMA

What is the LizzyM AMA? What does this acronym stand for?

 

[johnnyscans]

What is the LizzyM AMA? What does this acronym stand for?

LizzyM is an admissions committee member for a top us allopathic school. She did an AMA (ask me anything) in the pre-allopathic forum. Its good reading.

 

[romanjetfighter]

my sGPA is a bit over 3.5. i dont need any more classes for med school.
no letters of rec. i figure the longer time i have with them the stronger the letter will be. 😀
yes to research (no pubs or presentations though, but hopefully ill have smth to present at the end of this semester. applying to summer programs)
yes/sorta to clinical exposure (300hrs pushing patients/greeter) i want to do more than that, though. scribe america hasn't responded to my email sent a few months ago so looking elsewhere. (aka PA, where theres so many hospitals/med schools!!)
ECs are lacking, and some are cookie cutter (working as a QC tech (is employment even an EC?) homeless shelter, pres of club/on student council/govt boards (takes a lot of time but i love it), 2.5 month overseas working with NGOs/translating english/farming, teaching piano)

just curious what were your ECs johnnyscans??

planning on taking mcat this may but i am not sure i would do well since i barely have time to study though i am reading books to help my VR and writing section. if i get into temple ACMS...i would like to take it after their fall prep classes and after i studied for it in the summer but its a big gamble if i haven't taken the mcat by may and temple rejects me. they interview in july i think, by then its too late.

for me, i like coursework because if you put in a lot of effort, its very certain youll end up with an A. with the MCAT, a lot of effort in studying doesn't really ensure a good score. i'm not a bad test taker, but i don't like uncertainty, which is why i'm a bit uneasy doing things like applying with a lower GPA and trying out new restaurants. hopefully ill find some superstar ECs soon. 😛

i guess u guys saved me 20k + living costs in PA? 😛 honestly though it seems fairly cheap after someone from USC global health convinced me doing the MS in GM was a really good idea and it would be 45k + living costs.

 

[johnnyscans]

just curious what were your ECs johnnyscans??

I'm a career-changer, so my ECs are a little different from most premeds
5 years as a senior ocean lifeguard, was selected to both teach and work as an examiner for the certification test, i also co-ran 2 youth programs during that time. Once i graduated i spent 2 years working very much full time at one of the most "evil" entities in the country.

Besides that your typical premed stuff. Research 25 hours a week approaching a publication, shadowing, volunteering. Lucky for me research has become a passion of mine so i love being in the lab. I'm still a year out from applying but things are going nicely so far.


You've got some great ECs. You need to get serious about studying for your mcat. Immerse yourself in it. Visualize a kick ass score. Do whatever it takes to rock it. Score well and you have no need for post-bacc/smp work, seriously.

 

[exercise]

LizzyM is an admissions committee member for a top us allopathic school. She did an AMA (ask me anything) in the pre-allopathic forum. Its good reading.

That thread does not come up when I search for it. So an adcom actually posts here, wow! Do you have a link to that thread?

 

[romanjetfighter]

lol most evil entity in the country? TSA? 😛 blackwater?

 

[romanjetfighter]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=877440


she mentions ppl in fancy postbaccs once i think but at her school ppl dont go to postbaccs

its a top tier school...in NY

ppl say columbia

man just saying that name gives me chills

 

[deleted248403]

The average matriculant GPA is 3.6. As mentioned earlier, 50% people are below this. 50%!.

amen!

This is actually not the best way to look at it because it is deceiving. The average GPA of a matriculating student is a 3.67 at US MD school with a std dev of 0.26. This means the middle 70% of the class had GPAs ranging from 3.41-3.93. So 15% had less than 3.41, and 15% had more than 3.93.
So before you get all carried away with 'wow 3.41 is like the 15%' - you need to remember that this doesn't take account into race + ethnicity (which play big roles), location (Cali sucks for admission, but Louisiana has a school which has reaaaallly low stats) and state residency. Also, you'll realize when you get to med school - you think you had cool ECs, everyone else's are way cooler and more meaningful. Oh to not mention the olympic athletes that you will have class with (I had a class with an Olympic trial swimmer, who failed to make it to the Olympics at the last hurdle - yeah, thats a pretty cool EC). It also means 15% of you class had a 3.93 or better as their cGPA.... just think about that for a minute.

So in summary if you are white, Asian, Indian or some other heavily represented population in the medical school game, in a state that doesn't have a notoriously low set of acceptance numbers (like some in the South) and don't have at least one cool and different EC - then you should be pushing that lower boundary up by 0.1-0.15 IMO. Not trying to be a debbie-downer or saying you won't get in with a 3.5, but rather 'dont rest on your laurels with a 3.5'.

i guess u guys saved me 20k + living costs in PA? 😛 honestly though it seems fairly cheap after someone from USC global health convinced me doing the MS in GM was a really good idea and it would be 45k + living costs.

Are you surprised that someone from the school convinced you to spend $45k at their school? When you walk thru the mall, do you always buy the hand lotion the creepy guy in the those little stands in the middle are selling? do you always buy magazine subscriptions when they come door to door? Or buy Viagara pills via the internet? No - its sales. Did you seriously believe they have your best interests at heart when you $45k you are blindly willing to spend.

 

[johnnyscans]

This is actually not the best way to look at it because it is deceiving. The average GPA of a matriculating student is a 3.67 at US MD school with a std dev of 0.26. This means the middle 70% of the class had GPAs ranging from 3.41-3.93. So 15% had less than 3.41, and 15% had more than 3.93.[/QUOTE}
Very good point. I neglected to include the standard deviation, which is important when looking at statistics. Thank you for correcting that.

So before you get all carried away with 'wow 3.41 is like the 15%' - you need to remember that this doesn't take account into race + ethnicity (which play big roles), location (Cali sucks for admission, but Louisiana has a school which has reaaaallly low stats) and state residency. Also, you'll realize when you get to med school - you think you had cool ECs, everyone else's are way cooler and more meaningful. Oh to not mention the olympic athletes that you will have class with (I had a class with an Olympic trial swimmer, who failed to make it to the Olympics at the last hurdle - yeah, thats a pretty cool EC). It also means 15% of you class had a 3.93 or better as their cGPA.... just think about that for a minute.

The scariest statistic here is the 3.93 cGPA. I'm sitting at a 3.9 post-bacc GPA which took serious work to achieve. The dedication to maintain this over a 4 year period is staggering.

So in summary if you are white, Asian, Indian or some other heavily represented population in the medical school game, in a state that doesn't have a notoriously low set of acceptance numbers (like some in the South) and don't have at least one cool and different EC - then you should be pushing that lower boundary up by 0.1-0.15 IMO. Not trying to be a debbie-downer or saying you won't get in with a 3.5, but rather 'dont rest on your laurels with a 3.5'.

My biggest worry for the OP is him trying to rush the process. I don't think that effective MCAT prep can co-exist with a full course load, especially if it's hardcore upper level electives. Taking a two year period to take courses, put 3-4 months full-time into MCAT prep and diversify his experiences - now that might work.

And you're right - there are no guarantees with this process. I know I'm doing everything I can to apply with the best application package possible

 

[thlaxer]

I really like the looks of Portland, albeit it is not the most prestigious school out there. Yet my thoughts are with a strong GPA, extracurriculars and MCAT it shouldn't matter that much. Thoughts?

Adcoms were surveyed on what they thought were the most important factors for admissions. The top three pre-interview factors were: GPA, MCAT and LORs. Post-interview: interview impressions and LORs take the top two spots. ECs were (if I recall correctly) the 5th or 6th most important factor (i.e. important, but not as important as some people would like you to believe). Prestige was ranked in the top 10, but again, not the most important factor.

Based on this survey and also my experiences this cycle, I'd agree with you that having a strong GPA and MCAT should be your main focus. I would also make sure that you get strong LORs from professors who can speak highly of your 'soft qualities.' If I had to attribute my success this cycle to any one factor, without a doubt, it would be my recommenders and I cannot thank them enough for their support.

But, I also do believe that prestige plays a role in admissions. Going to a prestigious school is not going to save your application if you do poorly there. However, if you are able to get good grades, it will reflect better on you. For example: getting A's at an ivy-league post-bac is more impressive than getting the same grades at a lesser known post-bac due to the perceived rigor of the ivy-league curriculum. Several interviewers said something along these lines during the interview trial. Also, if someone's goal (for whatever reason) is to attend a "top school," I believe that prestige plays a much larger role in admissions. At the "top 10/20" schools I visited, I would say about ~70-80+% of the interviewees studied at very prestigious schools (either for undergrad or post-bac); it was a bit intimidating coming from a slightly lesser known undergrad.

tl;dr: Focus on your GPA, MCAT and LORs in the post-bac program. Only aim for prestige if you are confident in your abilities to do equally well at the more prestigious schools. My thoughts. 🙂

 

[thlaxer]

lol most evil entity in the country? TSA? 😛 blackwater?

My guess is banking

 

[DrMidlife]

Adcoms were surveyed on what they thought were the most important factors for admissions.

Citation? Specifically, how long ago was this? Sample size?

 

[thlaxer]

Citation? Specifically, how long ago was this? Sample size?

I briefly read the conclusions from the article last summer when I was applying, didn't pay attention to these details unfortunately.. It was a fairly lengthy document. Will try to see if I can find it 🙂

Edit: Couldn't find the same article, but I did find something similar and more recent (from Sept 2011) in the pre-allo section (attached). There's similar trends in this article: with GPA, MCAT and LOR being rated the most important for interview invitations (scores of 3.5-3.7, out of 5). It also breaks down the importance of different types of ECs, which is interesting. Data from this article was collected from 113 medical schools and they also interviewed >75 people at 8 med schools. The data (for all criteria) has a SD of 0.9-1.7. They unfortunately didn't specify the SDs for each individual criterion and the survey makes no distinction between 'research-heavy' and more primary-care focused schools. The SDs probably would've been much tighter had they done this I think. Also, Research isn't ranked at all in this study while I remember it was in the other one. That's surprising

 

[gehr4733]

Adcoms were surveyed on what they thought were the most important factors for admissions. The top three pre-interview factors were: GPA, MCAT and LORs. Post-interview: interview impressions and LORs take the top two spots. ECs were (if I recall correctly) the 5th or 6th most important factor (i.e. important, but not as important as some people would like you to believe). Prestige was ranked in the top 10, but again, not the most important factor.

Based on this survey and also my experiences this cycle, I'd agree with you that having a strong GPA and MCAT should be your main focus. I would also make sure that you get strong LORs from professors who can speak highly of your 'soft qualities.' If I had to attribute my success this cycle to any one factor, without a doubt, it would be my recommenders and I cannot thank them enough for their support.

But, I also do believe that prestige plays a role in admissions. Going to a prestigious school is not going to save your application if you do poorly there. However, if you are able to get good grades, it will reflect better on you. For example: getting A's at an ivy-league post-bac is more impressive than getting the same grades at a lesser known post-bac due to the perceived rigor of the ivy-league curriculum. Several interviewers said something along these lines during the interview trial. Also, if someone's goal (for whatever reason) is to attend a "top school," I believe that prestige plays a much larger role in admissions. At the "top 10/20" schools I visited, I would say about ~70-80+% of the interviewees studied at very prestigious schools (either for undergrad or post-bac); it was a bit intimidating coming from a slightly lesser known undergrad.

tl;dr: Focus on your GPA, MCAT and LORs in the post-bac program. Only aim for prestige if you are confident in your abilities to do equally well at the more prestigious schools. My thoughts. 🙂

Thanks! That is consistent with what I have read as well.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

 

[DrMidlife]

Edit: Couldn't find the same article, but I did find something similar and more recent (from Sept 2011) in the pre-allo section (attached).

Solid. Thanks for finding this.

 

[johnnyscans]

I briefly read the conclusions from the article last summer when I was applying, didn't pay attention to these details unfortunately.. It was a fairly lengthy document. Will try to see if I can find it 🙂

Edit: Couldn't find the same article, but I did find something similar and more recent (from Sept 2011) in the pre-allo section (attached). There's similar trends in this article: with GPA, MCAT and LOR being rated the most important for interview invitations (scores of 3.5-3.7, out of 5). It also breaks down the importance of different types of ECs, which is interesting. Data from this article was collected from 113 medical schools and they also interviewed >75 people at 8 med schools. The data (for all criteria) has a SD of 0.9-1.7. They unfortunately didn't specify the SDs for each individual criterion and the survey makes no distinction between 'research-heavy' and more primary-care focused schools. The SDs probably would've been much tighter had they done this I think. Also, Research isn't ranked at all in this study while I remember it was in the other one. That's surprising

In my opinion, the carryover from research would be a strong letter of recommendation, especially if your PI is well known.

 

[exercise]

Louisiana has a school which has reaaaallly low stats

Mind sharing what school this is?

 

[deleted248403]

Mind sharing what school this is?

Buy an MSAR - I gave mine away

 

[DrMidlife]

Mind sharing what school this is?

Buy an MSAR - I gave mine away

The lowest stat schools, to paraphrase the last several MSARs:
Lowest: Puerto Rico
Next lowest: HBCs (Howard, Morehouse & Meharry)
Next lowest: public schools that take almost no out-of-state students (these schools have average applicant GPAs of 3.5 or above, just lower MCATs)

Louisiana has a school in that last category, but otherwise Louisiana isn't an anomaly.

 

[romanjetfighter]

as for the adcom survey, no one is going to admit they are impressed by something as cheap and subjective as prestige, just like no one is going to act super impressed if people have a million dollar house and a vintage Jag E series, but subjectively you think higher of the person (depending on iff u like Jags). temple, for example, has a page that lists the UG institutions that its students come from, and many schools and summer programs brag about where their accepted students went to UG. maybe adcoms don't see prestige is important to them, but know prestige is important to impress highly motivated students who seek to enter a "distinguished" program, even when prestige isn't even relevant. for example, more students may apply to a summer research program at an unknown school if they advertise how many cornell/harvard students go there, and the more students apply, the higher ranking ur school gets

btw the way, since swo many people advised against doing a postbacc...does the PI's famousness really matter, even if he/she doesnt write a LoR?

 

[johnnyscans]

btw the way, since swo many people advised against doing a postbacc...does the PI's famousness really matter, even if he/she doesnt write a LoR?

It depends. Think about this: two biochemistry professors write two different students a recommendation, both claiming the student is in the top 5% of students they've ever taught. Professor A teaches at East Bumbleville, NW while Professor B teaches at MIT. Which one would you take more seriously?

Researchers who have published in the top journals will have an extensive network on contacts and will most likely be a professor at a top medical school. You never know who may end up reading their recommendation.

 

[thlaxer]

as for the adcom survey, no one is going to admit they are impressed by something as cheap and subjective as prestige, just like no one is going to act super impressed if people have a million dollar house and a vintage Jag E series, but subjectively you think higher of the person (depending on iff u like Jags). temple, for example, has a page that lists the UG institutions that its students come from, and many schools and summer programs brag about where their accepted students went to UG. maybe adcoms don't see prestige is important to them, but know prestige is important to impress highly motivated students who seek to enter a "distinguished" program, even when prestige isn't even relevant. for example, more students may apply to a summer research program at an unknown school if they advertise how many cornell/harvard students go there, and the more students apply, the higher ranking ur school gets

It's funny you point this out because that was one of my experiences at an interview. The school this occurred at has a great curriculum, but it is not ranked very highly. My interviewer spent most of the time talking about the prestigious UG's that their students came from.

As for your question about the PI recommendation, having a well-known PI write a strong LOR for you will carry more weight. However, I don't think it's a necessity. I got my research LOR from my PI who is not very well known at all. I don't believe that this hurt me though as the content of his letter was (as far as I can tell) very supportive.

 

[DrMidlife]

You never know. Your reviewer might have recently had an appalling experience with a nimrod whiner from Prestigious U. Your reviewer's med school roommate might be from Unprestigious U.

 

[smiley27]

Does anyone have thoughts on someone doing a bachelors at unknown large state university but doing all the pre-reqs for the first time in a rigorous postbac like Harvard Extension? This what what I'm currently doing. 2.7 ugpa but pulled two A- in chem and physics in my first semester here. First time ever taking a hard science class.

Does anyone have any experience on this kind of situation and does it hold weight in med school applications?

 

[thlaxer]

Does anyone have thoughts on someone doing a bachelors at unknown large state university but doing all the pre-reqs for the first time in a rigorous postbac like Harvard Extension? This what what I'm currently doing. 2.7 ugpa but pulled two A- in chem and physics in my first semester here. First time ever taking a hard science class.

Does anyone have any experience on this kind of situation and does it hold weight in med school applications?

An upward trend is always good and there are success stories from people who were in your situation.. But from what I've heard, an upward trend doesn't completely negate the effects of a bad GPA. A bad GPA is easier to forgive though if the 'bad classes' were taken a long time ago.

Also, what cGPA do you think you'll have after finishing the program at HES? There's a GPA/MCAT spreadsheet around here that shows the success rates of applicants and the statistics even for a 3.1 cGPA (lowest line available) don't look very good (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888650). e.g. an applicant with a 3.1 GPA and 34+ MCAT only has a ~40-45% chance of being admitted to at least one school in a given cycle (my guess is that a lot of these successful applicants completed additional coursework and maybe even a SMP).

My gut tells me that you'll probably need to follow this course and take additional courses after completing your pre-reqs. I'd wait for more knowledgeable people to confirm or deny this thought though. Good luck.

 

[deleted248403]

Does anyone have thoughts on someone doing a bachelors at unknown large state university but doing all the pre-reqs for the first time in a rigorous postbac like Harvard Extension? This what what I'm currently doing. 2.7 ugpa but pulled two A- in chem and physics in my first semester here. First time ever taking a hard science class.

Here is what an adcom will see when they look at your app;

Blah Blah State University; 2.7
Harvard Extension School; ??.??

I don't think the name matters that much. Its the cGPA that they will see first, regardless of the place its from

 

[romanjetfighter]

smiley27, what do you think of the program so far? the facilities and campus must be gorgeous😀 i'm sort of jealous of you!!! do you face any snobbery over trad harvard students???

looking at some of harvard's classes' syllabuses it doesnt seem too different than U Mass Amherst... 4-5 exams, lots of homework sets... the same material covered in the same amount of time. i talked to my prehealth advisor at school and we both thought academic enhancement is number's based and i checked out all of Upenn's teachers for spring 2012 and they're mostly adjunct lecturers or recent PhD grads.. unlike HES which is same quality of teaching as the UG. 🙂 man, postbacc programs are so widely different and their cost runs the gamut. glad there's sticky threads and SDN and ppl like johnnyscans and robflanker and napaholic lol

 

[smiley27]

smiley27, what do you think of the program so far? the facilities and campus must be gorgeous😀 i'm sort of jealous of you!!! do you face any snobbery over trad harvard students???

looking at some of harvard's classes' syllabuses it doesnt seem too different than U Mass Amherst... 4-5 exams, lots of homework sets... the same material covered in the same amount of time. i talked to my prehealth advisor at school and we both thought academic enhancement is number's based and i checked out all of Upenn's teachers for spring 2012 and they're mostly adjunct lecturers or recent PhD grads.. unlike HES which is same quality of teaching as the UG. 🙂 man, postbacc programs are so widely different and their cost runs the gamut. glad there's sticky threads and SDN and ppl like johnnyscans and robflanker and napaholic lol

I made the best decision of my life moving to Boston and starting the postbac at HES. I (and I assume most others) don't really interact with traditional Harvard students even though we share the same facilities and we're surrounded by them in the library but I haven't faced any snobbery with tradition Harvard students and even if I did I'm comfortable enough with myself not to be bothered by the stigma of being an extension student.

I think the classes and professors are outstanding. The classes are challenging but that's what I came here for. I'm sure others agree with me and will say that HES is the best bang for your buck postbac. 👍👍

 

[deleted248403]

smiley27, what do you think of the program so far? the facilities and campus must be gorgeous😀 i'm sort of jealous of you!!! do you face any snobbery over trad harvard students???

looking at some of harvard's classes' syllabuses it doesnt seem too different than U Mass Amherst... 4-5 exams, lots of homework sets... the same material covered in the same amount of time. i talked to my prehealth advisor at school and we both thought academic enhancement is number's based and i checked out all of Upenn's teachers for spring 2012 and they're mostly adjunct lecturers or recent PhD grads.. unlike HES which is same quality of teaching as the UG. 🙂 man, postbacc programs are so widely different and their cost runs the gamut. glad there's sticky threads and SDN and ppl like johnnyscans and robflanker and napaholic lol

You should not be considering a post-bac

 

[smiley27]

An upward trend is always good and there are success stories from people who were in your situation.. But from what I've heard, an upward trend doesn't completely negate the effects of a bad GPA. A bad GPA is easier to forgive though if the 'bad classes' were taken a long time ago.

Also, what cGPA do you think you'll have after finishing the program at HES? There's a GPA/MCAT spreadsheet around here that shows the success rates of applicants and the statistics even for a 3.1 cGPA (lowest line available) don't look very good (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888650). e.g. an applicant with a 3.1 GPA and 34+ MCAT only has a ~40-45% chance of being admitted to at least one school in a given cycle (my guess is that a lot of these successful applicants completed additional coursework and maybe even a SMP).

My gut tells me that you'll probably need to follow this course and take additional courses after completing your pre-reqs. I'd wait for more knowledgeable people to confirm or deny this thought though. Good luck.

I anticipate myself having a gpa of 2.93+ at the end of the postbac. It's possible for me to eclipse the 3.0 mark but it will probably take more time than I want to spend doing a postbac as opposed to starting a SMP before reaching the 3.0

My gpa after my sophmore year was a 2.03 or something like that. I received a letter in the mail saying that I was one bad semester away from being put on probation. But I came back strong with a 3.8, slowed down with a 3.4 and eventually raised my gpa from a 2.0 to 2.7 by the time I graduated. This was 5 years ago and I wasn't ready for college or knew what I wanted to do.

 

[JSReed]

You should not be considering a post-bac

Just give it up, lost cause. This guy REALLY wants to make a big donation to one lucky institution.