Roger Chou and the end of epidurals...

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You guy are critiquing an abstract without having read the article and waging personal attacks on the author. This is childish and when academics & policy makers read these types of ridiculous threads their suspicions about our collective integrity are confirmed.

Not a nihilist but capable of self-critism.

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i did an epidural today. think it worked. im gonna publish that.

it didnt work. you only THINK it worked, because you are getting paid for it. duh
 
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it didnt work. you only THINK it worked, because you are getting paid for it. duh

It didn't work...because pain is a character deficit not a medical problem...next time, try THIS:

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You guy are critiquing an abstract without having read the article and waging personal attacks on the author. This is childish and when academics & policy makers read these types of ridiculous threads their suspicions about our collective integrity are confirmed.

Not a nihilist but capable of self-critism.

Absolutely not. No one should apologize for misleading science. Policy-makers depend upon real experts with real experience to shape Big Issues and real lives in exam rooms: Re-hashing GARBAGE just to add a line to a CV, climb a rung on a totem pole, or secure the next sweet heart government contract does nothing to advance a substantive discussion. It's deplorable that anyone would recommend more spinal surgery in lieu of optimal conservative treatment. Who vets that point of view? Who benefits from saying that? Where's the self-criticism in the interest of the patient? Casual readers of the medical literature, journalists, and those lacking statistical sophistication are blind to the broader politics and interests that benefit from promoting this kind of psuedo-science.
 
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You guy are critiquing an abstract without having read the article and waging personal attacks on the author. This is childish and when academics & policy makers read these types of ridiculous threads their suspicions about our collective integrity are confirmed.

Not a nihilist but capable of self-critism.
I'm criticizing all meta-analysis.

I think they are lies to the sneakiest degree. Smart people like yourself seem to believe it...that is the danger. You seem reasonable. You seem well-read. You seem to care. You seem to want to do what is right - yet somehow....somewhere...you picked up on the idea that meta-analysis is good science.

What blows me away...is that people who write these have usually (I assume) been involved themselves in trying to put together and carry out a clinical trial. I find it really hard to believe that anyone that has been involved in writing a protocol, taking it to the IRB, then enrolling patients, then looking at the data, then writing the paper, then submitting the paper, then rewriting the paper to satisfy the reviewer's points and questions - would ever even consider meta-analysis close to the truth.
 
Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.
 
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Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

I need to spend more time to properly address this comment. Hopefully more to come.

You remind me of my 14 y/o daughter who was trying to argue with us that nicki minaj is a good role model because of her strength and confidence.

You're killing me 101.
 
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Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.
Doesn't have the facts, so attacks the poster (and in this case the board) personally instead. Pathetic, but sadly predictable.
 
Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

This kind of fear-mongering and undeserved deference to authority has no place in a debate: I've always thought it is malarky. Patients, taxpayers, and clinicians deserve accountability from those receiving public money. Everyone should ask what biases are present and who's interests are served...

upload_2015-9-1_7-15-35.png
 
Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

if anybody knows the appropriate use of an epidural, it is the docs who do them all day long every day. thats us, man.

i actually believe there is a role for meta-analysis, but the crap stew that was presented (caudals, epidurals for alll sorts of indications, unstandardized methods and medication dosages) does not pass muster. we know that better than anyone.

this particular meta analysis is crap. you dont need tenure, publications, or high academic standing to say that.
 
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Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.
You're saying we should have blind faith in people you have decided to label "world class," "researcher," and hang our heads in deference while turning off things we know to be fact based on our experience, and second guess our own knowledge learned from experience because of your ad hominem response and threat of being humiliated?

Oh, I get it. Just like the techniques used by those that started the pro-opiate revolution 30 years ago, who were also "world class," "researchers," "tenured," and from the unquestionable elite. Those that said we couldn't question what now kills tens of thousands of people per year.

I've heard it all before. It goes like this:

"Don't you dare question the experts. How dare you? They can't possibly ever be wrong and the lowly, title-less little-people be right. Just quiet down, turn off your brain, don't make waves and follow the heard or else be ridiculed."

It's from the same old playbook of intimidation and it doesn't mean you, or they, are right. In fact, it likely means the exact opposite.
 
i don't perceive the attacks on 101N's integrity to be particularly constructive, and it does corroborate some of his expressed comments.

we all are equally biased as Dr. Chou. we all are biased into believing that the procedures we are performing are benefiting patients. it takes an extraordinarily brave and ethical scientist to disprove his own null hypothesis (in our case, that epidurals work, and the reverse for Dr. Chou). one does not see that often. Dr. Chou proved his own beliefs, just as we are by expressing our opinions. but to say that we are right because we are in the trenches doing them is not EBM or science.

the spine surgeons doing all the fusions are saying the exact same thing...


and fyi, thats pretty good looking moo shu there...
 
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Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

How dare you claim we don't keep abreast of the literature. How would you know?
All you know how to do is pander to crazy patients on medicaid, and what study has ever shown that providing major doses of COT is safe for patients with major psych issues?

Back water of clinicians? Then get the hell out of the forum, and stop starting all those useless threads.

This is a great forum for sharing information on how to treat pain patients, and countless physicians have commented on how helpful it has been for them and added to what they learned in fellowship.
Probably because those physicians still believe they can help patients. Most of us on the forum believe in treating patients with primarily pain issues, not chronic psych issues like your patient population.
 
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as the worlds greatest pain doc, its clear ESIs work splendid in instances where they are done in legitimate patients without secondary gain, by someone who knows how to do them, and is willing to say no to them, when it inappropriate.

Problem is, a university setting has injections done by people who cant do them, and often does not have patients that translate to the average person having these procedures done. Problem is, most of us, especially the worlds greatest pain doc, dont have the interest or time, or wont, to carry these studies out ourselves. So we blame the questionable science put out by questionable people instead of doing it ourselves.

anyone who has been around any study, knows that what the actual results are, are often NOT what is reported when someone has skin in the game...

No different than politics. We complain about the dbags that run for office and lead this country, but you and i arent gonna do it...
 
How dare you claim we don't keep abreast of the literature. How would you know?
Good point. Considering what we're doing right now is "keeping abreast of the literature" as we do on many other threads.
 
Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

I would not underestimate the intellectual quality of mind or personal integrity of those who use this forum. In fact, for more than a decade I've relied on the advice and opinions of numerous of its participants. Several have had, or hold, academic appointments; teach in the content area of pain medicine, participate in specialty society activities, serve as journal reviewers, and publish...

Instead, I would remain skeptical of those who sell their opinions to governmental agencies and health plan benefit designers, who demonstrate an ascent in their career not on the basis of original, primary scholarship but the derivative re-hashing of others work for transparently biased and political ends. There is a collectivist/population-based worldview that seeks to deconstruct the personalized practice of medicine for ideological gain. There is a word for that kind of conduct: It is not "world-class."
 
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I think Roger is looking at the cost of the service, the total # performed, and the paltry ROI.
It's hard to argue with his analysis from my experience.
Please show me where "cost," "number performed" and "return on investment" were analyzed in the paper?

Assuming that's what he was "looking at" as you say, shouldn't what was "looked at" be the data looked at in the paper?
 
You guy are critiquing an abstract without having read the article ... capable of self-critism.
@101N , our ability (or lack thereof) to criticize the article, is no less than your ability to support it without having the full article. Please post the full article.


@101N Let's take a look at the alleged statements made in the article posted by @drusso . Let's take them in the context of the meta-analysis both we and they are discussing. We have someone who authored an article regarding a meta-analysis about steroid injections. Yet, we have that author reportedly giving an interview not to a medical journal, but to a healthcare reporter and based on his meta-analysis of epidural steroid injections, then drawing the conclusion that "spinal surgery" is superior to epidural steroid injections. Don't you find that very odd and disingenuous? That all of a sudden, we're jumping from a meta-analysis (with all their problems) and jumping to the conclusion that "spinal surgery is superior to epidural steroid injections"?

"But advances in spine surgery have made it easier than ever to treat pinched nerves caused by herniated discs, Chou added. These days it’s performed as a day procedure, and requires only a small incision.
“People recover quickly, and it usually works pretty well,” he said. “Most people, if they are told about the expected benefits of corticosteroid shots compared with surgery, I believe would choose not to receive the injections.” "


http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...udy-finds-steroids-for-one-common-malady.html

Was the meta-analysis about spinal surgery?

Have we defined what types of "spinal surgeries" we're talking about and for what conditions, in this analysis of epidural steroid injections?

Are we sure that surgery will be only a "day procedure, and requires only a small incision" as the author reportedly states?


Do we really think there only one type of "back pain" and one type of "back surgery" that is superior for all and that one can even make a blanket statement that one is better than the other across the board?

Even if the ESI study is perfect, how do we get from a meta-analysis about ESIs to publically blowing the horn to reporters, who aren't physicians and likely are unable to see these inconsistencies themselves, about the superiority of "surgery" (as if "back surgery" is a single procedure, for a single diagnosis) over ESIs?

The easiest way make that jump, is to have a pre-determined bias set in stone, that favors "surgery" over esi's.

That's fine if you want to publish a study. Maybe it has flaws, maybe it doesn't. Time will tell. And I don't care if people have opinions and biases. We all do. But when does so called "research" cross the line and become "activism"? Perhaps when one draws conclusions about one subject from a study about something entirely unrelated, and then publically goes and promotes those conclusions to media, who are non-physicians and who are unable to critically appraise medical literature themselves, but whom are well equipped to spread the word?

I don't know, I'm just asking the question. You tell me, @101N

At what point does physicians/scientist, become "activist"?
 
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where is 101N?

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@101N , our ability (or lack thereof) to criticize the article, is no less than your ability to support it without having the full article. Please post the full article.



@101N Let's take a look at the alleged statements made in the article posted by @drusso . Don't you find that very odd and disingenuous? That all of a sudden, we're jumping from a meta-analysis (with all their problems) and jumping to the conclusion that "spinal surgery is superior to epidural steroid injections"?

"But advances in spine surgery have made it easier than ever to treat pinched nerves caused by herniated discs, Chou added. These days it’s performed as a day procedure, and requires only a small incision.
“People recover quickly, and it usually works pretty well,” he said. “Most people, if they are told about the expected benefits of corticosteroid shots compared with surgery, I believe would choose not to receive the injections.” "


http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...udy-finds-steroids-for-one-common-malady.html

Was the meta-analysis about spinal surgery?

Have we defined what types of "spinal surgeries" we're talking about and for what conditions, in this analysis of epidural steroid injections?

Are we sure that surgery will be only a "day procedure, and requires only a small incision" as the author reportedly states?

Do we really think there only one type of "back pain" and one type of "back surgery" that is superior for all and that one can even make a blanket statement that one is better than the other across the board?

At what point does physicians/scientist, become "activist"?

OHSU Hospital

"OHSU Hospital, Oregon Health & Science University’s main inpatient facility, is the state’s only academic medical center, and is one of the busiest hospitals in the Oregon. It’s also the most profitable, by a wide margin, reporting net income (another term for profit) of $116.3 million in 2014. (No. 2, PeaceHealth Sacred Heart-Riverbend, reported net income of $95.5 million.)"

https://www.thelundreport.org/content/hospital-finances-ohsu-and-va-hospitals-0

 
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OHSU Hospital

"OHSU Hospital, Oregon Health & Science University’s main inpatient facility, is the state’s only academic medical center, and is one of the busiest hospitals in the Oregon. It’s also the most profitable, by a wide margin, reporting net income (another term for profit) of $116.3 million in 2014. (No. 2, PeaceHealth Sacred Heart-Riverbend, reported net income of $95.5 million.)"

https://www.thelundreport.org/content/hospital-finances-ohsu-and-va-hospitals-0

There you go. Follow the money. Of course. Smh
 
#1: nobody here injects corticosteroids for LBP. Chou has just spent a lot of time trying to dispel something that really isnt done
#2: we've already skewered that NEJM article ad nauseum

You, who prides himself on being a progressive, are a hipocrite.
 
Sadly, Paul can't help himself. When confronted with an article that speaks against his nihilistic worldview, rather than addressing the science, he attacks the person yet again. Pathetic.
 
You, who prides himself on being a progressive, are a hipocrite.

my personal politics really dont have anything to do with it.

funny thing is: im actually on your side. i think shots are way overdone, and some of the things chou says is correct. there are 2 ends of a bell curve, and you are way past 2 standard deviations
 
You, who prides himself on being a progressive, are a hipocrite.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hypocrite-the-all-purpose-political-insult-1441320824

"More is at stake here than mere lexicographic correctness. There is only one word for the kind of fraudulent pretense for which Jesus attacked the scribes and Pharisees. When we discover that a famous exponent of traditional morality is in fact a connoisseur of prostitutes, or that a champion of ethical government takes kickbacks and sells votes, we need a word for it—and that word shouldn’t be shared with mere inconsistency or everyday partisan hackery. A genuine hypocrite deserves a special epithet, saved just for him."

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Don't try this - criticizing a meta-analysis by a world class researcher - outside of this
little back water of clinicians who don't have tenure, don't stay abreast of the literature,
and don't publish with any regularity. If you do you will be - rightly - eviscerated.

+1 for back water, non-tenured, irregularly published clinicians who don't stay abreast of the the literature...

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...lumn-big-data-the-danger-in-knowing-less.html

Doctors are awash in data. With the advent of Big Data in health care, and its promise to bring physicians, policymakers, and payers a Grand Unifying Theory of Everything, a cottage industry has formed in its wake.

Call it the Big Crunch.


The Big Crunch comprises academics, consultants, and others who promise to distill Big Data down to its essential meaning — reify disparate data points into clear action. As funding sources for original scholarship have dried up, contracts awarded by government agencies to analyze existing data are its lifeblood.

Meta-analysis is one popular analytical tool used by the Big Crunch — earning it canon status among biomedical, public health, and social scientists. The practice of meta-analysis resembles a sort of statistical alchemy. By combining the dregs and dross of individually insignificant studies, the meta-analytician may endeavor to produce the gold of a pooled positive result.

Other times, the meta-analytician may coax the opposite effect. By selectively choosing which studies to include in an analysis, weighting studies unequally, or leaving out studies that practicing experts would say are pivotal, real effects can be erased.

Importantly, meta-analysis being non-experimental in nature means that sources of bias are not controlled by the method: A good meta-analysis of badly designed studies will still result in bad statistics — known as the garbage in/garbage out effect.

So, at its best, meta-analysis is an exercise in editorial discretion; conducting a meta-analysis involves many, many interpretative judgments. But, at its worst, meta-analysis can fuel an agenda-driven bias.

I worry that the Big Crunch heralds a new age of paternalism in medicine. That is, by choosing among a very narrow menu of studies, usually those commissioned by a program or by its own small circle of like-mined supporters, the Big Crunch exerts an inflated influence over what kind of evidence gets considered for policy. As the same data gets compiled again and again, this creates a policy-making echo chamber where ideas are amplified and reinforced by repetition inside an enclosed system.

When the Big Crunch touts new conclusions based upon their meta-analyses, the effect is not unlike the Music Man’s Professor Harold Hill rolling into town: Consternation, confusion, and concern. In short, the results are often used to justify claims that there is new trouble in River City and an urgent call to action is needed.

Grappling with typically broader issues, the Big Crunch can make a splash and grab headlines. (For example, OHSU study finds steroids, for one common malady, are overrated.) Social media flares and the pundits amplify and reinforce the message.

By the time practicing experts can contextualize the information, review the glossy materials and scrutinize its technical details, the Big Crunch has already moved on to its next grant or contract.

Thus, the real danger of meta-analysis is putting a premature end to a discussion based upon biased interpretation cloaked in quantitative authority. Contrary to the ideal of policymakers carefully weighing all evidence on complex issues before making rules and allocating resources, all too often policymakers have used research politically, selectively drawing on evidence to support already-held views.

Ultimately, the purveyors of the Big Crunch may be selling science that can’t live up to its own promises. Practicing experts in a field understand that one can be both “data rich” and “information poor.” In medicine, new payment structures being implemented hazard new kinds of conflicts of interests, competing organizational agendas, and other sources of bias embedded in selecting what counts as evidence.

Moreover, stakeholders may be unable to appraise all sources of bias contained within a meta-analysis. Every salesman knows that decisions can be influenced by framing equivalent outcomes in either terms of relative gain or loss. The same can be said for meta-analysis.

Oregon’s policymakers would do well to remember that wisdom resides at the corner of book smart and streetwise. Though hypothesis generating, meta-analysis really can’t tell anyone much beyond what practicing experts already know. After all, the true heart of science is replication. As such, meta-analysis is unnecessary where it’s valid, and unhelpful where it’s needed most.

But one thing is certain: If policymakers want clearer direction about how to prioritize limited resources, then they can stop paying for meta-analysis. Instead, taxpayers would be best served by having publicly supported scientists spend their time conducting better experiments and getting dirty again with original data.

Dr. David Russo is a physiatrist and pain management specialist at Columbia Pain Management P.C. in Hood River.
 
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my only concern about the link... why is that doctor's right eyelid a little droopy?

cant be due to a self-administered stellate...
 
+1 for back water, non-tenured, irregularly published clinicians who don't stay abreast of the the literature...

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland...lumn-big-data-the-danger-in-knowing-less.html

Doctors are awash in data. With the advent of Big Data in health care, and its promise to bring physicians, policymakers, and payers a Grand Unifying Theory of Everything, a cottage industry has formed in its wake.

Call it the Big Crunch.


The Big Crunch comprises academics, consultants, and others who promise to distill Big Data down to its essential meaning — reify disparate data points into clear action. As funding sources for original scholarship have dried up, contracts awarded by government agencies to analyze existing data are its lifeblood.

Meta-analysis is one popular analytical tool used by the Big Crunch — earning it canon status among biomedical, public health, and social scientists. The practice of meta-analysis resembles a sort of statistical alchemy. By combining the dregs and dross of individually insignificant studies, the meta-analytician may endeavor to produce the gold of a pooled positive result.

Other times, the meta-analytician may coax the opposite effect. By selectively choosing which studies to include in an analysis, weighting studies unequally, or leaving out studies that practicing experts would say are pivotal, real effects can be erased.

Importantly, meta-analysis being non-experimental in nature means that sources of bias are not controlled by the method: A good meta-analysis of badly designed studies will still result in bad statistics — known as the garbage in/garbage out effect.

So, at its best, meta-analysis is an exercise in editorial discretion; conducting a meta-analysis involves many, many interpretative judgments. But, at its worst, meta-analysis can fuel an agenda-driven bias.

I worry that the Big Crunch heralds a new age of paternalism in medicine. That is, by choosing among a very narrow menu of studies, usually those commissioned by a program or by its own small circle of like-mined supporters, the Big Crunch exerts an inflated influence over what kind of evidence gets considered for policy. As the same data gets compiled again and again, this creates a policy-making echo chamber where ideas are amplified and reinforced by repetition inside an enclosed system.

When the Big Crunch touts new conclusions based upon their meta-analyses, the effect is not unlike the Music Man’s Professor Harold Hill rolling into town: Consternation, confusion, and concern. In short, the results are often used to justify claims that there is new trouble in River City and an urgent call to action is needed.

Grappling with typically broader issues, the Big Crunch can make a splash and grab headlines. (For example, OHSU study finds steroids, for one common malady, are overrated.) Social media flares and the pundits amplify and reinforce the message.

By the time practicing experts can contextualize the information, review the glossy materials and scrutinize its technical details, the Big Crunch has already moved on to its next grant or contract.

Thus, the real danger of meta-analysis is putting a premature end to a discussion based upon biased interpretation cloaked in quantitative authority. Contrary to the ideal of policymakers carefully weighing all evidence on complex issues before making rules and allocating resources, all too often policymakers have used research politically, selectively drawing on evidence to support already-held views.

Ultimately, the purveyors of the Big Crunch may be selling science that can’t live up to its own promises. Practicing experts in a field understand that one can be both “data rich” and “information poor.” In medicine, new payment structures being implemented hazard new kinds of conflicts of interests, competing organizational agendas, and other sources of bias embedded in selecting what counts as evidence.

Moreover, stakeholders may be unable to appraise all sources of bias contained within a meta-analysis. Every salesman knows that decisions can be influenced by framing equivalent outcomes in either terms of relative gain or loss. The same can be said for meta-analysis.

Oregon’s policymakers would do well to remember that wisdom resides at the corner of book smart and streetwise. Though hypothesis generating, meta-analysis really can’t tell anyone much beyond what practicing experts already know. After all, the true heart of science is replication. As such, meta-analysis is unnecessary where it’s valid, and unhelpful where it’s needed most.

But one thing is certain: If policymakers want clearer direction about how to prioritize limited resources, then they can stop paying for meta-analysis. Instead, taxpayers would be best served by having publicly supported scientists spend their time conducting better experiments and getting dirty again with original data.

Dr. David Russo is a physiatrist and pain management specialist at Columbia Pain Management P.C. in Hood River.

Plain Language Translation:

Note I'm wearing scrubs and leaded glasses in my head shot because I like to inject things. Guys that question the value of
my injections have hidden agendas hashed out in back rooms where conspiracies occur. All meta-analyses should be suspect as
a big government tool to hoodwink patients. The only studies that have any value are RCT performed by content experts
who believe in whatever it is they are testing. And one more thing, negative RCT's for studies of IPM stuff are usually funded
by big government people, who wear suits and vote democrat. Screw them anyway!

But enough of the hoodwinking, my 9 O'-clock's here and ready for her third mu shu PRP.
 
Plain Language Translation:

Note I'm wearing scrubs and leaded glasses in my head shot because I like to inject things. Guys that question the value of
my injections have hidden agendas hashed out in back rooms where conspiracies occur. All meta-analyses should be suspect as
a big government tool to hoodwink patients. The only studies that have any value are RCT performed by content experts
who believe in whatever it is they are testing. And one more thing, negative RCT's for studies of IPM stuff are usually funded
by big government people, who wear suits and vote democrat. Screw them anyway!

But enough of the hoodwinking, my 9 O'-clock's here and ready for her third mu shu PRP.


as usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. you cant play the devils advocate ALL of the time
 
Plain Language Translation:

Note I'm wearing scrubs and leaded glasses in my head shot because I like to inject things. Guys that question the value of
my injections have hidden agendas hashed out in back rooms where conspiracies occur. All meta-analyses should be suspect as
a big government tool to hoodwink patients. The only studies that have any value are RCT performed by content experts
who believe in whatever it is they are testing. And one more thing, negative RCT's for studies of IPM stuff are usually funded
by big government people, who wear suits and vote democrat. Screw them anyway!

But enough of the hoodwinking, my 9 O'-clock's here and ready for her third mu shu PRP.
Psychiatry and psychology, existed long before IPM and the wide use of opiates, yet the scourge of chronic pain persisted. What makes you think your psychological treatments for pain are any better, or even equal, to any other treatment of pain?
 
nonsequitor argument.

one may argue that the statistical data suggests that the "scourge of chronic pain" has tremendously increased with the advent of IPM and the propagation of chronic opioid use.

for example, there is a 66% increase from 2000-2010 in the number of physician visits for neck and back pain. just as you cannot make the conclusion that IPM and COT was directly related to the increase in office visits for pain, you cannot make a logical conclusion that the existence of psychiatry and psychology is directly linked to the "scourge of chronic pain" and the incidence.
 
nonsequitor argument.

.
I wasn't presenting any argument whatsoever. I was asking a question and asking him for proof of his argument. There's a big difference.

He has no proof that his proposed psychological treatments are any better than any other treatment, or even as good as any other treatment for all patients with chronic pain. The question was, and still is,

"What is the proof your psychological treatments for pain are any better, or even equal, to any other treatment of pain?"

I'm still waiting.
 
emd I ignore you because I don't take your posts seriously: #1 You new to pain and naive about it, and #2 you seldom use evidence or
quote literature.

That said, I agree that psychological treatments have limited efficacy. I don't have a dog in that fight. My primary argument is
that we - not just us but all prescribers - are systematically ignoring 'central sensitization'. You don't reliably pick it up
on exam, there isn't a SLR for 'central sensitization'. It is a brain condition that needs to be screened for using validated
instruments and a careful history and chart review. IMO the current addiction crisis is due to our predecessors treating CS as if
it were nociceptive pain. CS is, IMO, nearly always the elephant the working-aged CNP patient's living room.

So lets say you find it, then what. Well you offer treatment of the co-morbid diseases that nearly always accompany it: depression,
anxiety, PTSD, addiction, etc. You may also opt to offer evidence-based medications that seem to help about 1/3rd of those how
have it. And finally, you provide information on the condition and a referral for CBT/ACT if they agree and if it's covered by their carrier.

And then you stop the workup and endless chase for cure. No procedures, no opioids.
 
I can't think of anyone (or any professional society) that believes that they can cure CS with injections...

I don't see how using taxpayer money to fund GIGO science advances the cause for better payment for integrated models of pain treatment...

Finally, what happens after a centrally sensitized patient gets a disk replacement because insurance wouldn't pay for a ESI?
 
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emd I ignore you ...
Right...Except for when you don't. Like right now.

#1 You new to pain and naive about it
Another good example of attacking the person not the argument. But I'll let you have that shot.

#2 you seldom use evidence or
quote literature.

There's much more to using evidence than simply "quoting literature" or simply copying and pasting hyperlinks on the Internet.


That said, I agree that psychological treatments have limited efficacy. I don't have a dog in that fight. My primary argument is
that we - not just us but all prescribers - are systematically ignoring 'central sensitization'. You don't reliably pick it up
on exam, there isn't a SLR for 'central sensitization'. It is a brain condition that needs to be screened for using validated
instruments and a careful history and chart review. IMO the current addiction crisis is due to our predecessors treating CS as if
it were nociceptive pain. CS is, IMO, nearly always the elephant the working-aged CNP patient's living room.

So lets say you find it, then what. Well you offer treatment of the co-morbid diseases that nearly always accompany it: depression,
anxiety, PTSD, addiction, etc. You may also opt to offer evidence-based medications that seem to help about 1/3rd of those how
have it. And finally, you provide information on the condition and a referral for CBT/ACT if they agree and if it's covered by their carrier.

And then you stop the workup and endless chase for cure. No procedures, no opioids.

This part of your post, I totally agree with. The general theme of your other posts that I disagree with is that, all (or nearly all) pain is central/psychological, it's never (or almost never) nocioceptive, and that doctors that ever use injections or opiates to treat such patients are necessarily acting unethically and deserve your contempt. Whether that's what you really think or not, I'm not sure, as I don't personally know you. But a lot of times your posts come across as over the top, in that way. I think for the most part, you're preaching to the converted on this forum, but often come of as if you're preaching to pill mill doctors or fraudulent injection-mill. Maybe there are such doctors on here, I don't know, but I tend to doubt it. Either way, we can agree to disagree.
 
You don't reliably pick it up
on exam, there isn't a SLR for 'central sensitization'. It is a brain condition that needs to be screened for using validated
instruments and a careful history and chart review. IMO the current addiction crisis is due to our predecessors treating CS as if
it were nociceptive pain. CS is, IMO, nearly always the elephant the working-aged CNP patient's living room.

Psychosom Med. 2015 Sep;77(7):721-32. doi: 10.1097/PSY.0000000000000217.
Affective Modulation of Brain and Autonomic Responses in Patients With Fibromyalgia.
Rosselló F1, Muñoz MA, Duschek S, Montoya P.
Author information
  • 1From the Research Institute on Health Sciences (IUNICS) and Department of Psychology (Rosselló, Montoya), University of Balearic Islands, Palma de Mallorca, Spain; Department of Personality (Muñoz), University of Granada, Granada, Spain; and Institute of Applied Psychology (Duschek), University for Health Sciences Medical Informatics and Technology (UMIT), Hall in Tyrol, Austria.
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
Emotional dysregulation and abnormal processing of affective information are thought to play a significant role for the maintenance of pain in fibromyalgia. The motivational priming hypothesis states that negative emotions could increase pain via activation of the aversive system, thus leading to an affective modulation of defensive reflexes. Nevertheless, little is known about peripheral and central correlates of affective reflex modulation in fibromyalgia.

METHODS:
Thirty patients with fibromyalgia and 30 healthy individuals were asked to view three video clips from a self-perspective to induce specific mood states. Video clips consisted of the same virtual walk through different locations of a park under three affective environments (unpleasant, pleasant, and neutral). Startle eyeblink reflex and heart rate response elicited by abrupt startle noises, as well as heart rate variability and electroencephalography (EEG) oscillations were recorded when participants were passively viewing the virtual environments.

RESULTS:
Patients with fibromyalgia rated all environments as more negative and arousing than did healthy controls (p values < .05). Nevertheless, startle eyeblink reflex and heart rate response were lower in patients with fibromyalgia than in healthy controls when viewing all three environments (p values < .05). Patients with fibromyalgia also displayed lower heart rate variability, as well as higher EEG power (2-22 Hz) during all environments than did healthy controls (p values < .05).

CONCLUSIONS:
Patients with fibromyalgia were characterized by relevant deficits in affective modulation of startle and cardiac responses, heart rate variability, and EEG power spectra in response to sustained induction of affective states. These findings suggest an alteration of emotional and attentional aspects of information processing at subjective, autonomic, and central nervous system levels.
 
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It didn't work...because pain is a character deficit not a medical problem...next time, try THIS:

View attachment 195732
Pain is a "character deficit," not a medical problem? You are being facetious, right? Please say yes!

I agree with Ducttape about the moo shu, by the way.

As for the T.F.E.S.I. I had, and the "nerve block" as they called it again 2 months later - at a cost of over $5000 to my employer - my personal experience fits with the conclusion in the abstract. In my experience, I had pain relief for less than a day, but effective while it lasted. But then "in my experience" are the three most dangerous words in medicine . . . or so I have been told. These are epistemological questions which have always had a tendency, as far back as Athens, to be kind of thorny.
 
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we do not usually comment about medical care that a poster has received...

that being said, there are nerve blocks that I provide patients that are diagnostic in nature and are only meant to last 1-3 hours. even most of the simpleton patients understand this diagnostic nature....
 
we do not usually comment about medical care that a poster has received...

that being said, there are nerve blocks that I provide patients that are diagnostic in nature and are only meant to last 1-3 hours. even most of the simpleton patients understand this diagnostic nature....
Do you really think that I can't tell that you just insulted me with that little dig . . . "even most of the simpleton patients understand?"

Apparently, I failed miserably in my attempt to communicate something clearly, concisely, and effectively.

I was not asking anyone to comment on my medical care in the 3rd paragraph. It was just a lead-in to what I had intended to be a comment/observation about the difficulty in having any reasonable degree of certainty that anything we know to be true is actually true. I mentioned Athens. I'm told Socrates was said to be the wisest man in Athens, but what did he think? He, as best we can tell from what Plato relates to us, said something along the lines of "I know, for a fact, that I don't know anything." It's a conundrum.

In the 2nd paragraph, I was agreeing (with you) that that . . .what did you call it? Moo Shu? I don't know what it is - I assumed that when you named it, you . . I was just calling it the same name you called it. Whatever it is, it does, indeed, look tasty.

The 1st paragraph? I once tried to say something facetiously on a public forum - and I was a complete stranger to everyone there except for what I had seen them write in the comment thread - which is to say, I knew very little about any of them, or they me. One of them accused me of violating TOS - I saw his/her point - without being able to see the smile/smirk/wink, intonation, eyes, etc- much less just KNOW the person . . . you can't easily convey facetiousness in a forum like this. Okay, let's move on. Here's the statement I was responding to above . . . "It didn't work...because pain is a character deficit not a medical problem...next time, try THIS:"

Okay - I'm going to make a valiant effort to be clear and concise - and succinct, if I can do it. I have known many clinicians in many different contexts. Relatives, dating relationships, friends, colleagues, co-workers, members of my church, relatives of members of my church, in post-graduate training - even a little experience as a patient. I've done rounds as part of a residency at a cancer treatment and research institution. (I slept walked through many of those morning rounds. I was exhausted.) Of all the clinicians I met, I can think of at least one clinician - not going to lose his license . . . very intelligent. . . very competent. Is he nice? No. Compassionate? No. Wise? No. I've heard him talk about his patients. We're no longer friends. Why? If my mother were in that CCU at night, I would not want that clinician to be the one responsible for her care. I can think of more that I have little or no confidence in. I know of a neurosurgeon who's about a tie with the nurse in having flawed character traits. Having said that, I've known most clinicians to be good people, thankfully. Some even stellar.

Okay - this is clear, concise, & succinct: I have serious doubts about the character, judgment, objectivity, credibility, and basic decency/virtue/ethics of any clinician who describes his/her patients as "simpletons" with "character defects."

Just, FYI. . . My epidural steroid injections were not diagnostic, by the way. I'm not a simpleton, I heard clearly what the clinicians intended when they sought my informed consent. I also have a copy of the medical records. Your patients may not be as stupid/simple as you think they are. . .

I'm comforted by the recent sure knowledge that at least the employees of the F.D.A. still have their wits about them.
 
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where is the "eye-roll" emoticon?
 
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