Rosalind Franklin? (Thoughts on schools without Hospital Affiliation)

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ridethecliche

ridethecliche

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I'm debating whether to go to an Interview at Rosalind Franklin. How will the school not having an affiliated hospital/health system come into play with regards to experiences during MS1/2 and during rotations at MS3/4.

Would you recommend just passing on the school if I have an acceptance elsewhere (Read: Albany)?

I haven't attended interviews anywhere else where the school doesn't have a hospital affiliation and attendings at work remarked that it's 'weird'. So here I am asking seemingly silly questions.

I'm leaning towards withdrawing, especially due to the recent accreditation issues as well, but just wondering what peoples thoughts on the school are at this point.

If accepted to both, which would you choice re: AMC vs RF.

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The only reason I wouldn't attend an interview was if I had already been excepted to a much cheaper option. I'm pretty sure RFU and Albany have pretty similar COA?
 
I personally would be concerned about going to a school with no established hospital affiliations. That introduces a lot of uncertainty that, for me at least, would be disconcerting. At the end of the day, it's the clinical training - not the pre-clinical training - that's going to matter when you graduate in 4 years. I would do everything in my power to make sure that I go to a school that has quality facilities available to its students. That's really where the bulk of your "important" learning is going to happen.

Unless you have very compelling reasons to end up in the Chicago area, I would forgo the interview given that you've already got an acceptance at another institution.
 
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NickNaylor said:
I personally would be concerned about going to a school with no established hospital affiliations. That introduces a lot of uncertainty that, for me at least, would be disconcerting. At the end of the day, it's the clinical training - not the pre-clinical training - that's going to matter when you graduate in 4 years. I would do everything in my power to make sure that I go to a school that has quality facilities available to its students. That's really where the bulk of your "important" learning is going to happen.

Unless you have very compelling reasons to end up in the Chicago area, I would forgo the interview given that you've already got an acceptance at another institution.
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Meh I've heard various opinions on this topic from the attendings I work with at the hospital (I've been asking the same question). Some argue that training at a community hospital (ie one w/o residents) allows you to participate to a more meaningful extent, especially in regard to procedures. The most common thing I hear is that it doesn't really matter much. That is, any MD school in the U.S. will provide a sufficient education experience to match into any specialty you want as long as you put in the work. I think the match lists from any us md school supports this argument.


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ski89 said:
Meh I've heard various opinions on this topic from the attendings I work with at the hospital (I've been asking the same question). Some argue that training at a community hospital (ie one w/o residents) allows you to participate to a more meaningful extent, especially in regard to procedures. The most common thing I hear is that it doesn't really matter much. That is, any MD school in the U.S. will provide a sufficient education experience to match into any specialty you want as long as you put in the work. I think the match lists from any us md school supports this argument.


Sent from my iPhone
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This isn't a question of community vs. academic setting (with respect to that, I would agree with you), unless I misunderstood. This is a question of formal affiliation agreement vs. no formal affiliation agreement. They are two very different things. Obviously RFU has some kind of clinical sites for students to rotate at, otherwise they wouldn't be graduating students. But it would make me uneasy, personally, to be attending an institution that may not have a long-term educational agreement to have students at their hospitals. Perhaps they do, I don't know. But at any rate, it would be something worth inquiring about.
 
NickNaylor said:
This isn't a question of community vs. academic setting (with respect to that, I would agree with you), unless I misunderstood. This is a question of formal affiliation agreement vs. no formal affiliation agreement. They are two very different things. Obviously RFU has some kind of clinical sites for students to rotate at, otherwise they wouldn't be graduating students. But it would make me uneasy, personally, to be attending an institution that may not have a long-term educational agreement to have students at their hospitals. Perhaps they do, I don't know. But at any rate, it would be something worth inquiring about.
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Ok I see what you are saying. Yeah I don't know the answer to that (and I interviewed there lol). I don't think they do. But again, I would still reference the fact that every US MD school matches students into competitive residencies every year. So I wouldn't use hospital affiliation as the most important criteria, but rather one of many (which I'm sure you agree with nick)


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SouthernSurgeon said:
The people who argue that are usually the people who don't have access to a better option and are rationalizing their experience as advantageous.

The point of having an affiliated hospital (and affiliated academic departments) is to help you make connections and match.



Ask some of the students trying to match in competitive fields without a home department how they feel about that sentiment.
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That's not a fair statement. Most of the doc's I'm referring to went to colorado. But sure I agree with you for the most part. That's one of the reasons why CU is my top choice. But the OP is comparing Albany to Rosalind Franklin. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Albany is known as being an academic powerhouse.


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NickNaylor said:
I personally would be concerned about going to a school with no established hospital affiliations. That introduces a lot of uncertainty that, for me at least, would be disconcerting. At the end of the day, it's the clinical training - not the pre-clinical training - that's going to matter when you graduate in 4 years. I would do everything in my power to make sure that I go to a school that has quality facilities available to its students. That's really where the bulk of your "important" learning is going to happen.

Unless you have very compelling reasons to end up in the Chicago area, I would forgo the interview given that you've already got an acceptance at another institution.
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Thanks. This is pretty much how I was viewing things.

I also asked one of the attendings at my office what I should do and he hadn't heard of RF (he did his spine fellowship at Rush) and a fellow here just told me that I should 'absolutely not' go there given I had albany in the bag.

I guess that's as large of a consensus as I could have hoped for.
 
ridethecliche said:
Thanks. This is pretty much how I was viewing things.

I also asked one of the attendings at my office what I should do and he hadn't heard of RF (he did his spine fellowship at Rush) and a fellow here just told me that I should 'absolutely not' go there given I had albany in the bag.

I guess that's as large of a consensus as I could have hoped for.
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No disrespect intended to RFU or its students, but of the med schools in Chicago (of which there are probably 5-6) I would put it in the bottom by far. It doesn't surprise me that he hasn't heard of it. It doesn't have the same presence in the city as Rush, UIC, NW, and U of C do.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
How do schools get accredited if they lack a hospital affiliation?
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Apparently that has an interesting story too.

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/cms/LCME.aspx

Edit: It seems this was sorted out in Feb last year, however it's the 2nd time in a decade.

These are RF's hospitals:

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/Degreeprograms/AllopathicMedicine/Rotation.aspx


I think the issue is that it's nowhere near the hospitals (>1hr away) and they don't have one 'home' institution.
 
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NickNaylor said:
No disrespect intended to RFU or its students, but of the med schools in Chicago (of which there are probably 5-6) I would put it in the bottom by far. It doesn't surprise me that he hasn't heard of it. It doesn't have the same presence in the city as Rush, UIC, NW, and U of C do.
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I'd generally agree with this, but as to your above points, I'd disagree that RFU's lack of a primary hospital (not counting the nearby VA) is enough disadvantage to turn down the interview, especially compared to Albany. If you have it, use it, unless the flight to Chicago is going to be a financial burden.

Does anyone actually know what hospitals RFU students go to? I believe Cook County take a bunch, and the NC VA is another obvious one.
 
WingedOx said:
I'd generally agree with this, but as to your above points, I'd disagree that RFU's lack of a primary hospital (not counting the nearby VA) is enough disadvantage to turn down the interview, especially compared to Albany. If you have it, use it, unless the flight to Chicago is going to be a financial burden.

Does anyone actually know what hospitals RFU students go to? I believe Cook County take a bunch, and the NC VA is another obvious one.
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I'm honestly not sure whether I should go or not. I can swing it $$$-wise, but I'm just trying to figure out if it makes sense given that this situation is kind of unique.

From the RF website:
Chicago Medical School students complete the majority of their rotations at our major affiliate hospitals:

From wiki:

Chicago Medical School is community-based, giving students an opportunity to rotate through many hospitals and hospital systems in the greater Chicago area. These include:

See also[edit]
 
Not to derail, but the list of clinical sites includes Advocate Christ and Stroger Hospital (Cook County)? If you want to see high acuity and tons of trauma cases, those two will give you far more than your fair share. They cover some of the most under-served areas in the country that are totally devastated by drug and gang violence.

I agree with @WingedOx, it might be worth a shot to check out Rosy Franklin if you can afford it. Worst case scenario is you go there and it confirms your decision to stick with Albany.
 
Having just done a lot of research about attending jobs in the Chicago area: All the Advocate hospitals have solid reputations, so that's a plus for RFU. Though expect to be doing a lot of commuting unless you can get everything at one site. that list goes from really central, to really north to really south (though my school had us do a lot of commuting too, so that's not really unique to RFU. Some of the farthest away sites were some of the best).
 
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Take what I say with a grain of salt as I did not go to med school at RFU but I am from Chicago and have bumped into several RFU M4s on my residency interview trail this season and as a student at an academic institution with a home university hospital listening to their stories, I am glad I did not go through that curriculum. With that being said though, no one seemed to HATE it, more of an "it is what it is" mentality. You will be in North Chicago (which is close to Wisconsin actually) the first 2 years and then all over the greater Chicagoland area for clinicals at the listed hospitals .

I would say it depends what's important to you. Many go because they are from Illinois/Chicago and want to stay in the area. I'm sure for some it was the only school they were accepted. Is it worth interviewing at? I would say it depends what type of applicant you are. If you have a ton of interviews already lined up, and you have confidence that you can either get in to one of those or would absolutely not go to RFU if accepted then withdraw. If you only have a handful of interviews and would rather go to RFU that not get in anywhere, go to the interview.

Basically, will you regret your decision if you decline the interview?
 
DrPerrla said:
Take what I say with a grain of salt as I did not go to med school at RFU but I am from Chicago and have bumped into several RFU M4s on my residency interview trail this season and as a student at an academic institution with a home university hospital listening to their stories, I am glad I did not go through that curriculum. With that being said though, no one seemed to HATE it, more of an "it is what it is" mentality. You will be in North Chicago (which is close to Wisconsin actually) the first 2 years and then all over the greater Chicagoland area for clinicals at the listed hospitals .

I would say it depends what's important to you. Many go because they are from Illinois/Chicago and want to stay in the area. I'm sure for some it was the only school they were accepted. Is it worth interviewing at? I would say it depends what type of applicant you are. If you have a ton of interviews already lined up, and you have confidence that you can either get in to one of those or would absolutely not go to RFU if accepted then withdraw. If you only have a handful of interviews and would rather go to RFU that not get in anywhere, go to the interview.

Basically, will you regret your decision if you decline the interview?
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At this point I'm waiting to hear back from Einstein, UMass, and UMiami in order of consideration. Einstein and UMass interviews went well but UMiami was the worst interview I've ever had in my life. I'd probably still go there over Albany though. I won't hear back from them for a bit, so I could book the interview towards the end of the open dates and cancel closer to it, but I'd be lessening my chances of getting in at that point, no?
 
ridethecliche said:
At this point I'm waiting to hear back from Einstein, UMass, and UMiami in order of consideration. Einstein and UMass interviews went well but UMiami was the worst interview I've ever had in my life. I'd probably still go there over Albany though. I won't hear back from them for a bit, so I could book the interview towards the end of the open dates and cancel closer to it, but I'd be lessening my chances of getting in at that point, no?
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Whoops, sorry, was under the impression you did not have an acceptance yet. I'm assuming you said you'd prefer UMiami over Albany even though your interview there was bad? Not that should affect if you go to the RFU interview or not...

I don't know anything about Albany so I can't help you compare them. What did you not like about Albany?
 
DrPerrla said:
Whoops, sorry, was under the impression you did not have an acceptance yet. I'm assuming you said you'd prefer UMiami over Albany even though your interview there was bad? Not that should affect if you go to the RFU interview or not...

I don't know anything about Albany so I can't help you compare them. What did you not like about Albany?
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Albany was fine. I liked it there enough to be more than happy there. The school also has a pretty good reputation atleast in the surgery world though this might be heavily influenced by the fact that one of the attendings in my department went there and has done some pretty remarkable things and is pretty well respected in Spine. I liked Albany, I just feel like I have incomplete information about whether I'd go to RFU over Albany. I'm leaning to no, but that's because I don't know enough. I don't see the point of flying out somewhere with incomplete information, especially if complete info makes me consider the place less so.

And yeah, there's a combined degree program at Miami that's perfect for what I'm interested in. I think I got a stress interview at Miami and it made me pretty unhappy, but the program and the people I met were amazing. Enough so that I'd overlook the bad interview if they decide to let me in. I think I'd be shocked if I was accepted to be honest.
 
Advocate is a fairly large and well-known system in the city, so I agree with others' comments that that wouldn't be much of a concern in my book. I've never done any clinical work at Stroger (the county hospital), but I know that it's very well-regarded with respect to the training experience, particularly in the Chicago area.

Given those things, I'd be less concerned than what I was putting forth previously. Those are solid hospital systems, as @WingedOx said.
 
how can you tell if a school has a hospital affiliation?
 
ski89 said:
Meh I've heard various opinions on this topic from the attendings I work with at the hospital (I've been asking the same question). Some argue that training at a community hospital (ie one w/o residents) allows you to participate to a more meaningful extent, especially in regard to procedures. The most common thing I hear is that it doesn't really matter much. That is, any MD school in the U.S. will provide a sufficient education experience to match into any specialty you want as long as you put in the work. I think the match lists from any us md school supports this argument.


Sent from my iPhone
Click to expand...

Check out this thread about quality of clinical rotations to see just how different clinical education is among different schools: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/quality-and-adequacy-of-clinical-rotations.1118374/
 
ridethecliche said:
Thanks!

What I'm getting from that thread is that having an affiliated hospital usually leads to better teaching since there's more at stake for the attendings etc that do the teaching. Is this accurate?

@mimelim @SouthernSurgeon
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I am a 4th year at RFU, and I have also been able to do some away rotations at schools with affiliated hospitals. I can tell you that the attendings who like to teach like it period, it doesn't matter if they are at a community hospital (who still have residents, by the way) or an affiliated hospital. That being said, as was mentioned before, the Advocate hospitals have a lot of really good attendings and residents, so that isn't something to worry about.

As for the long-term, I can tell you that we do have agreements with the Advocate system, with Lutheran General as a main teaching hospital (I don't know the specifics, but I know we have some special relationship with them as a major affiliate hospital). The other hospitals we rotate at (VA, Elgin, Cook Co, Sinai, etc, all have really good aspects (like ER at cook).

I would say if you are concerned about matching into a specific specialty, look at the match lists for both schools over the last couple years. However, you may want to keep in mind that it is REALLY common for people to start school 100% dedicated to one field, but end up in something completely different (even if they did a bunch of shadowing, etc). So I would look at more than just the match lists.

In the end, you won't know unless you go and look
 
Seems like a lot more moving around and logistics are involved than Albany. Is that something you want to deal with while going to Medical School?

Bitte schön
 
DrPerrla said:
Take what I say with a grain of salt as I did not go to med school at RFU but I am from Chicago and have bumped into several RFU M4s on my residency interview trail this season and as a student at an academic institution with a home university hospital listening to their stories, I am glad I did not go through that curriculum. With that being said though, no one seemed to HATE it, more of an "it is what it is" mentality. You will be in North Chicago (which is close to Wisconsin actually) the first 2 years and then all over the greater Chicagoland area for clinicals at the listed hospitals .
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Could you elaborate more on the "horror stories" you've heard? that may be an exaggeration, but I am cureious about what they said specifically. I'm in the same boat--accepted to Albany and Hofstra, trying to decide if its worth going out to interview at RFU...
 
Souther Surgeon speaks wisdom. I am also a surgical resident and whole heartedly agree. You go to RFU and you can kiss goodbye to surgical subspecialties like uro, ortho, plastics, ent. Don't waste your time with RFU.

FYI, other red flags: They almost lost their accreditation a while ago, when I was schooling in Chicago.
 
caffeinemia said:
Souther Surgeon speaks wisdom. I am also a surgical resident and whole heartedly agree. You go to RFU and you can kiss goodbye to surgical subspecialties like uro, ortho, plastics, ent. Don't waste your time with RFU.

FYI, other red flags: They almost lost their accreditation a while ago, when I was schooling in Chicago.
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Lol? Take a look at their most recent match list. They matched students into Ortho (8 students...), urology, NS, and rad onc...

Also, they are very up front about their accreditation issues. They have recently met with the LCME and everything is going just fine.

Edit: not doubting that not having a main hospital affiliation can be a disadvantage, but to say you can kiss those specialties goodbye is not correct.
 
AeagleD said:
Could you elaborate more on the "horror stories" you've heard? that may be an exaggeration, but I am cureious about what they said specifically. I'm in the same boat--accepted to Albany and Hofstra, trying to decide if its worth going out to interview at RFU...
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I know this is old, didn't see this earlier, whoops! I never said "horror" stories. Just stories. I much prefer the academic institution I got my medical education at. Moving around from hospital to hospital depending on the rotation imo is rough. Where would you live? Close to one place, far from another all the time. I don't need that stress during med school. This of course is among other things. Yes, it doesn't matter what hospital, they all could have attendings who are great teachers but better ability to standardize, oversee medical education when you have one or two main hospitals students rotate at vs. the however many RFU sends its students to.
 
ski89 said:
But the OP is comparing Albany to Rosalind Franklin. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Albany is known as being an academic powerhouse.
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The only reason we aren't getting a differing opinion here is because Albany wasn't mentioned in the thread title. I made the same claim in an "Albany vs " thread once, and all these Albanazi's came out of the woodwork and insisted, repeatedly, that Albany was an academic powerhouse far above that generic mish-mash of schools below the top 20. It was weird.

Hey OP, if you are still following this thread, I was in a similar situation as yours, but in the opposite direction: I was accepted to RFU, I was sitting on an interview to Albany, and I knew that (for my own personal reasons) I would 90% likely choose RFU over Albany if accepted to both schools. So, should I go to the time and effort of an Albany interview???

I turned down the Albany interview. No regrets.
 
Hah seems to have worked out for you right? You went to Tulane afaik. Albany is my only acceptance so far this cycle, but I'm on 2 wls and still have to hear back from one more place.

I'm hoping to not end up at Albany either, even though I liked the place when I interviewed. I've just interviewed at a few other places that would be a better fit for me personally.

It's hard for me to estimate where Albany falls in the totem pole of med schools because they opt out of the rankings, but I'm guessing it's in the bottom third, which is fine.

At the end of the day, the perception I seemed to get of Albany vs rfu was that the former is perceived better as well. At the end of the day, I'm not sure how much of a difference it'd make, but it made enough of one when I was comparing them and thinking about the cost of the ticket that I'm writing this from London after buying a ticket here instead of to Chicago!
 
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Sorry mate, I don't think our apps will have anything in common even if stats are similar. I recommend using the msar and applying broadly.

I also applied to 45 schools so my list won't help you.
 
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