Ross the diploma mill?

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Sharky

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This article was from Forbes Magazine

Palm Tree M.D.s
Chana R. Schoenberger, Forbes Magazine

On a recent morning 200 medical students drowse as a professor flashes slides of bile ducts overhead. Biochemistry at 8:30 a.m. is a tough slog anywhere. But at Ross University School of Medicine, located on the tropical island of Dominica, the students have something else to sweat about: In the U.S. medical profession, where they aim to have careers, their diplomas won't be taken very seriously.

But the diploma is still worth something. It entitles the bearer who passes the same tough licensing exam that U.S. med students take, and who fights his or her way into a hospital residency, to practice medicine. And so it is that the vendor of these offshore diplomas is worth something. Last April the school's founder sold a majority stake in Ross and its sister institution, the Ross University School of Veterinary Medicine on nearby St. Kitts, for about $135 million. The chief buyer was Leeds Weld & Co., a New York private equity firm specializing in for-profit educational ventures. Ross' board includes former Massachusetts governor William Weld; onetime Lazard lawyer Jeffrey Leeds; Chairman Benno Schmidt Jr., a former president of Yale who is also chairman of Edison Schools; and Bill Clinton's first chief of staff, Thomas F. (Mack) McLarty III. These guys are making a fair go of busting up the American medical school cartel, which uses tight accreditation rules to restrict the supply of doctors. "The U.S. system is designed to limit access to medical education," says Ross Chief Executive Timothy Foster.


The establishment, predictably, is howling. Last May the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published an article attacking foreign schools like Ross, which aren't accredited by the American Medical Association's licensing boards. The other strike against Ross is that it's in business to make a buck. That conflicts with the public image projected by the medical profession: We're here to serve humanity. Hustle a dollar? Perish the thought.

Ross takes the quality challenge very seriously. It has to, considering its seedy origins. In 1978 grain trader Robert Ross convinced the government of Dominica, a lush, volcanic ex-British colony, to let him build a for-profit medical school catering to Americans whose MCAT scores didn't make the cut at any of the 125 U.S. medical schools. (Ross later gave himself an honorary doctorate from his own school.)

The students came to the oceanside campus. But behind the postcard scenery lay typical offshore problems. Failing a class used to mean repeating?and paying for?the entire semester. Admission standards were an oxymoron: Ross accepted 65% of all applicants, compared with 42% for U.S. schools, and never required the MCAT until last year. At one point the U.S. Department of Education flew in to investigate complaints by a teacher at a competitor school. (It took no action against Ross.)

These days the school attracts people who are hell-bent on being doctors, despite the disadvantages of the lowbrow Ross degree. Students seem to fall into two categories. Half are recent college grads who move to "The Rock" immediately after getting a stack of rejection letters. Jan Phillips, who wants to care for the elderly, graduated from Vanderbilt in 1998 and went home to Texas to get a master's in clinical gerontology. While working in a clinic at Baylor University's hospital, she applied to all the Texas medical schools. Phillips settled on Ross after she couldn't get in anywhere else.

Other students trade up from jobs in nursing, dentistry or other fields. Queens, N.Y. native Stacy Weiner was a physician's assistant for almost three years before deciding on an M.D. She bypassed U.S. schools altogether to avoid waiting two years while taking the MCAT and going through the application process.

Ross students take the standard U.S. medical school curriculum?but at an accelerated pace. The school has a three-semester year, allowing students to finish their four semesters of basic science quickly. After a fifth semester of early clinical training in Miami, Ross students do five semesters of clinical rotations in the U.S. at teaching hospitals in one of nine states, where they train alongside American med students.

No problem getting into Kern Medical Center, in Bakersfield, Calif., which can't lure enough med students from the affiliated University of California system to fill its program. A bit tougher to find a spot at New York University School of Medicine's top-notch Hospital for Joint Diseases, already flooded in the second half of the year with students who are trying to get into its orthopedic surgery residency program. To fill gaps in the first half, NYU takes a few Ross students each month, in return for a nominal administrative fee of $100 per pupil. None have become residents. How are the Ross students? "It's been variable," says Dr. Joseph Zuckerman, who heads the program. "Is it the same curve as students we see from other places? No."

It's up to Foster to get Ross student performance up to par. He once ran NovaCare Inc., a publicly traded outpatient rehabilitation firm based in King of Prussia, Pa., until sliding Medicare reimbursements spurred a fire sale in 1999. Weld, who was on the board of a NovaCare unit, hired Foster at Ross.

Foster is enforcing a new idea in academia: market forces. The 61 med school professors make an average of $60,000 to $90,000, with tax breaks on the first $75,000 for living outside the U.S. There's no tenure and, since they don't have to do research, they're paid on the basis of how well they teach. Pink slips are possible. Student evaluations and low exam scores have landed six profs on probation since last year.

With its reduced-stress tropical setting, Ross has drawn an eclectic faculty. Biochemist Gerhard Meisenberg, a 17-year veteran in colorful sandals who published a textbook while at Ross, wanted to live "far from Chicago." Julie Klotzbach, chairman of the pharmacology department, hated research and hoped to see her kids more often.

Foster is continuing to ratchet up academic performance. Two years ago Ross began requiring a school-administered "shelf exam" a semester before the compulsory U.S. Medical Licensing Exam Step 1 test, the first of three exams on the way to an M.D. Just half of Ross students pass the shelf exam the first time, 75% on the second go-round. Once they're allowed to take the Step 1, 82% to 94% pass on the first try. That's still shy of the 93% for U.S. medical students, but better than the 65% score for foreign med school grads as a whole. In last year's residency match, which assigns medical school seniors to a specialized training program in a U.S. hospital, 70% of Ross students got a spot, again besting overseas grads (52%), but falling short of U.S. medical school graduates (94%). Ross alumna Dr. Nancy Perri, the school's clinical dean, says 96% of graduates eventually find a program, some by negotiating directly with hospitals.

Is the school succeeding at its mission?making money, that is? Foster and his bosses say it is, but are mum on specifics. Here's some idea of what's on the profit and loss statement. Ross probably pulls in $58 million a year from tuition?$27,000 a year for three semesters for each of 2,100 students. Expenses at the two schools?including the costs of recruiting, a technology overhaul, road construction, hurricane and malpractice insurance (for students training in the U.S.) and overhead for the New York office?approach $50 million. Profit: probably less than $10 million, most of it reinvested in the school.

Ross has so far graduated 2,500-plus doctors who, in order to get certified, must pass a battery of exams, including the Test of English as a Foreign Language. Here's a test for the AMA: What does R-E-S-P-E-C-T spell?"

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0514/090.html

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Every Caribbean student and their mother knows about this article. It is very outdated. Things change fast in the Caribbean. I read it two years ago.

I still didn't see anything in it that would discourage me from going to Ross if I were an applicant.

BTW, 96% of all graduates get residencies in the US now. Those that don't go to other countries or decide not to practice medicine.
 
Aucdoctobe said:
Every Caribbean student and their mother knows about this article. It is very outdated. Things change fast in the Caribbean. I read it two years ago.

I still didn't see anything in it that would discourage me from going to Ross if I were an applicant.

BTW, 96% of all graduates get residencies in the US now. Those that don't go to other countries or decide not to practice medicine.
Aucdoctobe, the article is not for caribbean students, it's for premeds who may be considering Ross. They have a right to know all sides of the story. It would be nice if you can substantiate or provide evidence to your claim that 96% of Ross graduates get a US residency now. The article stated about 70% do.

Waiting4Ganong, your welcome. My reasons were to help premeds who may be considering going to Ross.
 
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Sharky said:
It would be nice if you can substantiate or provide evidence to your claim that 96% of Ross graduates get a US residency now. The article stated about 70% do.

You misread the article. Read it again. 70% match. 96% end-up in residency (e.g., pre-match, scramble, off-cycle deals, etc.)

-Skip
 
Sharky said:
The article stated about 70% do.

I think the fact that this is a 3-year old article reduces its credibility quite a bit. Current stats are likely very different than at the time this was written.
 
Skip Intro said:
You misread the article. Read it again. 70% match. 96% end-up in residency (e.g., pre-match, scramble, off-cycle deals, etc.)

-Skip
You are right. My mistake. The rest probably scramble.
 
Daedalus said:
I think the fact that this is a 3-year old article reduces its credibility quite a bit. Current stats are likely very different than at the time this was written.

Could be. You may be right.

-Skip
 
Sharky said:
You are right. My mistake. The rest probably scramble.

I know a substantial number of Ross students who get offered "pre-match" contracts. This "loophole" was supposed to get closed with the changes to the NRMP in 2001, but the lawsuit apparently put a freeze on this and it was left intact... at least for the time being. I know of some colleagues who got offered spots in Peds and PM&R and during third-year! This is one of the extremely few advantages of "going foreign" for your degree. However, the choice programs usually do not offer this option... they don't need to.

-Skip
 
Things are changing a lot for Carib-trained docs, at least from the more credible schools at least here in Southern California. Almost everyone knows a Carib doc, someone who's brother, sister or cousin went.
 
I am a 2004 Ross University graduate. I worked extremely hard as a student, having passed my boards with flying colors. I ended up matching for anesthesiology in this past year's competitive match. I am now a transitional intern rotating through surgery, working alongside residents who have graduated from Amercan med schools, including my chief resident. Judging from my positive interactions with them, they have treated me with respect and have openly expressed their glowing opinions on my ability to catch on quickly.
Yes, as a Ross graduate, you WILL always feel a bit inferior to your American counterparts, but ultimately you will be judged on how well you treat your patients, not from which med school you graduated from...
 
There's no shame in being a caribbean med student/graduate. I may not be one myself but I do know that caribbean schools are there to give people a chance to be doctors! They are for profit....but they train people who want to be doctors that can't get in in the states. THey do have a high drop out rate because they're selection criteria is not as strong so ppl enter the school with lower grades and take classes and end up realizing its too hard or not what they want to do. I've heard a significant number of FMG's getting residencies in the US. and US vet schools do not look down on Ross vet school. Its actually regarded quite highly and one admissions lady I talked to said most vet grads from there almost all of them get jobs back in the US.
 
Do you really think Ross is a diploma mill? Well.....New York, California, New Jersey, Florida, The US Departement of Education, and the ECFMG think otherwise. 🙄

Is Ross a "for-profit" school? Yes. Is Ross a "Diploma Mill"? No. If it was, why then so many people failed out of Ross, and never got their "low-brow" (Ross) MD? It's not like they did not have the "money" fot it!
 
42% acceptance for U.S. medical schools is highly incorrect. Most U.S. medical schools including DO schools have acceptance rates no greater than 20% and most of them range between 8-15%. At AZCOM for example, 2200 applied and 200 were accepted for 130 spots.
 
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doesn't ross graduate about 400 students a year?? sounds like a diploma mill to me.
 
doc05 said:
doesn't ross graduate about 400 students a year?? sounds like a diploma mill to me.

Diploma mill?!!! :laugh: Ok, a well established "diploma mill" since 1978 that is recognised by the US Department of Education, and all of the 4 states that "approve" foreign schools. A "diploma mill" that places all of its graduates in US residency programs, and has graduated more than 4000 MDs who are lisenced in ALL 50 states. Not to mention recognition by the British medical board/council too.

I know the level of education that I receive at Ross, and I know that I am being well trained to become a physician. Call it "diploma mill" or whatever you want. A rose, (called) by any other name, is still a rose.😴

And were did you get "400 students" from?
 
azcomdiddy said:
42% acceptance for U.S. medical schools is highly incorrect. Most U.S. medical schools including DO schools have acceptance rates no greater than 20% and most of them range between 8-15%. At AZCOM for example, 2200 applied and 200 were accepted for 130 spots.

No, actually, it's quite correct.

I think you misunderstood, maybe not intentionally, what the numbers mean and how these statistics are derived. You have to look at the individual applicant's chance of getting a spot in a U.S. allopathic program, not the number of applications for individual programs, when talking about acceptance rates (which is what we're talking about).

For example, one student may apply to 20 different schools. That single student cannot possibly go to all 20 schools (he/she is only one person after all), and may in fact get several acceptances to multiple schools, or may just go through the application process as a "back-up", as often happens for allopathic students who apply to osteopathy school (and Caribbean schools, for that matter) - that's not a slam against either, just the truth.

However you slice it, the person who has applied to 20 schools increases the total number of applications to each particular school. Furthermore, given your misleading example the statistics of an individual school only include the number of apps they receive and do not include, for instance, people who don't complete or withdraw from the application process for whatever reason, the number of requests for interviews they send out that are unattended, the number of declines the school gets, etc.

In order for the data to be in any way meaningful and reflective of the actual number of applicants vs. those who matriculate, one has to look at the overall application pool for the overall number of spots - all potential students for all schools - and not at the number of applications received at a particular school, which will artificially deflate the acceptance rate. For example, if there are 40,000 applicants (not applications) for 16,500 spots in U.S. allopathy school, this means that there is an overall 41.25% acceptance rate for applicants. Remember that all spots will fill... every year, and always... which means roughly that if you apply and are in the "top 40%" of the applicant pool, you'll probably get a spot somewhere. Some schools are more competitive (and hence more desirable) than others, and will truly have a lower net acceptance rate. Likewise, other schools are less competitive and will have a higher net acceptance rate. Each is independent of the number of applications, and totally dependent on (1) the quality of the applicant pool for that school and (2) the willingness to of an applicant to attend if accepted.

I'm "ballparking" here, but this is pretty close to the way it's been for the past couple of years. This data is available on the AAMC website if you want to do the legwork yourself.

Either way (i.e., you accept what I say here or see the same exact thing written on AAMC's website), I hope you can now see and realize the error of your otherwise understandable (but erroneous) logic.

-Skip
 
One last thing... Good luck no matter where you go. In the end, we all just want to become physicians and serve people in their time of need, right?

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
One last thing... Good luck no matter where you go. In the end, we all just want to become physicians and serve people in their time of need, right?

-Skip

Yessssssss.. This is intuitive and true. However, certain trolls have been posting on this forum to make up for some personal insecurities. Too bad... No amount of reason will work on them. They are not operating on that level.

Oh well.. We will all become MD's and forget about them.
🙂
 
Aucdoctobe said:
Yessssssss.. This is intuitive and true. However, certain trolls have been posting on this forum to make up for some personal insecurities. Too bad... No amount of reason will work on them. They are not operating on that level.

Oh well.. We will all become MD's and forget about them.
🙂
Or we will all become MDs or DOs and forget about the haters. 👍

By the way, it is true that DO schools generally have acceptance rates 20% or below. That simply is a fact and you see that information on USNEWs rankings.

I do not know the acceptance rates of caribbean schools.
 
Sharky said:
By the way, it is true that DO schools generally have acceptance rates 20% or below. That simply is a fact and you see that information on USNEWs rankings.

Sharky,

Did you read and understand my post?

Here's the data for allopathic schools, by the way... (and it seems that I do have to do the legwork)

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003slrmat.htm

As you can see, the overall acceptance rate for 2003 was 47.5%. I seriously doubt that there are, (1) a far higher ratio of osteopathic applicants for osteopathy school spots, and (2) far more of them are turned away than allopathic applicants are from M.D. programs. But, I'm willing to look at any credible link you provide that says otherwise.

Again (and to keep it simple), for the reasons I previously elucidated you have to count applicants, not applications!

-Skip
 
remember what busy said, if he can do it, so can u!
oh, yea, i don't see a problem of ross being a diploma mill. that is what the american dream is all about. if u want it, u work hard, then u will get it.

it is those real dr. evils who don't want to open up more med. schools to let every citizens be able to fulfill their dreams.

thanks to ross, now u can be all u want to be. haha.
 
iamhotok said:
remember what busy said, if he can do it, so can u!
oh, yea, i don't see a problem of ross being a diploma mill. that is what the american dream is all about. if u want it, u work hard, then u will get it.

it is those real dr. evils who don't want to open up more med. schools to let every citizens be able to fulfill their dreams.

thanks to ross, now u can be all u want to be. haha.

Ross is not a "diploma mill" and it is completely asinine to even remotely characterize it as such. The true medical diploma mills were shut down in the 1980's after a U.S. federal government investigation, and their graduates cannot get a license to practice medicine pretty much anywhere in the United States.

This is what constitutes a diploma mill:

A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an unaccredited organization which awards academic degrees and diplomas with little or no academic study, and without recognition by official bodies. Many diploma mills claim to offer these qualifications on the basis of "life experience", but many only require a payment to issue a qualification. They are used to fraudenlently claim academic credentials for use in securing employment (e.g., a schoolteacher might get a degree from one in order to advance to superintendent).

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Diploma+mill

In no way does Ross (or SGU or AUC) meet any of the criteria in this definintion.

(1) If you think there is "little or no academic study" at any of these schools, you are going to be in for a big surprise.

(2) All three are recognized by the medical boards in their own country as well as the U.S. DOE and many state licensing and medical education boards (i.e., are recognized by "official bodies"). All are subject to routine audits by some medical licensing boards (e.g., NY State) as well.

(3) None of these schools offers credit for "life experience", and just because you pay does not mean you are going to graduate (as many people sadly find out after failing out).

(4) There is nothing fraudelent about the academic credentials issued by these schools; all graduates are certified by the ECFMG, can (and must) sit for U.S. medical licensing exams, and must complete a residency in an ACGME approved institution as part of and before they can legally make claim that they are a "doctor" in the U.S.

To characterize these schools as "diploma mills", even jokingly, is *****ic.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Sharky,

Did you read and understand my post?

Here's the data for allopathic schools, by the way... (and it seems that I do have to do the legwork)

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003slrmat.htm

As you can see, the overall acceptance rate for 2003 was 47.5%. I seriously doubt that there are, (1) a far higher ratio of osteopathic applicants for osteopathy school spots, and (2) far more of them are turned away than allopathic applicants are from M.D. programs. But, I'm willing to look at any credible link you provide that says otherwise.

Again (and to keep it simple), for the reasons I previously elucidated you have to count applicants, not applications!
-Skip
I am talking about individual schools, not of all applicants. Of course if a person applies to 50 schools he has around a 50% to get in. However, at each school, the acceptance percentage is generally around 20% or lower at allopathic and osteopathic schools in the US.

For the real stats, I would have to pay the premium subscription for USNEWs which I don't feel like paying just to prove a point. However, the information is there.
 
Someone had the USNEWs stats in another thread so here they are. You will notice that all are below 20% with a few around 21 or 22%. A school like Ross is a lot higher.
****** Applied Interviewed Accepted Enrolled*****


College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific Admissions

Total: 2,254 484 393 185 In state: 685 269 226 130
Out of state: 1,569 215 167 55 Women: 959 203 164 73
Minorities: 797 140 115 15 International: N/A N/A N/A 3
Acceptance rate: 17.4%

Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,236 636 317 225 In state: 418 262 152 128
Out of state: 1,818 374 165 97 Women: 949 270 134 99
Minorities: 462 178 115 81 International: 7 2 2 2
Acceptance rate: 14.2%

Des Moines University Osteopathic Medical Center Admissions

Total: 2,215 500 463 202 In state: 154 90 84 66
Out of state: 2,061 410 379 136 Women: 882 214 122 94
Minorities: 615 88 69 30 International: 111 23 12 2
Acceptance rate: 20.9%

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,024 232 184 115 In state: 41 28 22 18
Out of state: 1,983 204 162 97 Women: N/A N/A 98 64
Minorities: 564 21 12 8 International: N/A N/A N/A 0
Acceptance rate: 9.1%

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,692 191 184 125 In state: 444 165 158 112
Out of state: 1,248 26 26 13 Women: 750 98 97 58
Minorities: N/A N/A N/A N/A International: N/A N/A N/A N/A
Acceptance rate: 10.9%

Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,555 534 401 157 In state: 122 47 37 22
Out of state: 2,433 487 364 135 Women: 1,039 198 166 56
Minorities: 487 89 62 12 International: 126 15 9 5
Acceptance rate: 15.7%

University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,262 535 475 251 In state: 113 44 46 30
Out of state: 2,149 491 429 221 Women: 946 223 205 108
Minorities: 650 115 95 41 International: 119 33 11 8
Acceptance rate: 21.0%

UMDNJ--School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,719 161 153 87 In state: 310 109 104 72
Out of state: 1,409 52 49 15 Women: 831 82 79 47
Minorities: 216 67 68 38 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 8.9%

New York College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,841 813 491 304 In state: 675 467 300 208
Out of state: 2,166 346 191 96 Women: 1,381 380 255 157
Minorities: 1,094 255 214 129 International: 5 2 2 2
Acceptance rate: 17.3%

Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 717 225 176 108 In state: 279 180 144 90
Out of state: 438 45 32 18 Women: 323 97 79 46
Minorities: 97 49 35 26 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 24.5%

Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,075 199 143 88 In state: 248 151 103 76
Out of state: 827 48 40 12 Women: 432 85 62 41
Minorities: 340 40 30 17 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 13.3%

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 3,430 664 398 251 In state: 547 284 231 156
Out of state: 2,883 380 167 95 Women: 1,609 194 180 115
Minorities: 1,195 137 77 49 International: 0 0 2 2
Acceptance rate: 11.6%

U. of North Texas Health Sci. Center (Texas Col. of Osteopathic Medicine)
Admissions

Total: 1,151 411 146 119 In state: 1,055 393 139 114
Out of state: 96 18 7 5 Women: 541 208 63 64
Minorities: 480 49 42 42 International: 42 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 12.7%

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,408 258 149 80 In state: 171 110 68 54
Out of state: 1,237 148 81 26 Women: 624 44 84 45
Minorities: 291 26 13 5 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 10.6%

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,145 403 368 134 In state: 151 125 91 29
Out of state: 1,994 278 277 105 Women: 879 162 150 52
Minorities: 644 121 84 20 International: 16 4 2 0
Acceptance rate: 17.2%

Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,521 436 214 125 In state: 437 215 122 80
Out of state: 1,084 221 92 45 Women: 618 212 112 61
Minorities: 562 148 82 58 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 14.1%

Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 693 121 88 64 In state: 72 60 46 39
Out of state: 621 61 42 25 Women: 274 48 38 28
Minorities: 24 10 6 2 International: 36 2 0 0
Acceptance rate: 12.7%
 
Sharky said:
I am talking about individual schools, not of all applicants. Of course if a person applies to 50 schools he has around a 50% to get in. However, at each school, the acceptance percentage is generally around 20% or lower at allopathic and osteopathic schools in the US.

For the real stats, I would have to pay the premium subscription for USNEWs which I don't feel like paying just to prove a point. However, the information is there.

Sharky,

No offense intended (really), but you just don't get it. As I said before (and will say again one last time), the number of applications is irrelevant in determining acceptance rates. It is only relevant in determining application rates. If you add up all the applications from all the allopathic schools, you'll get several hundred thousand total applications. Using your logic, this would mean that several hundred thousand people applied to medical school last year, which simply isn't true. There never were that many applicants. Acceptance rates are based on individuals not applications.

I'll give you an example using what you posted. Let's take UMDNJ, for example, straight from your post.

UMDNJ--School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,719 161 153 87 In state: 310 109 104 72
Out of state: 1,409 52 49 15 Women: 831 82 79 47
Minorities: 216 67 68 38 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 8.9%

Now, let's just look at the total, okay?

Number applied: 1,719
Number interviewed: 161
Number accepted: 153
Number enrolled: 87

We agree, right?

Now, you have calculated the "acceptance rate" at 8.9%. This is completely false for several reasons, and I want you to understand why it's wrong to base it on the number of applications.

First off, can you account for what happened to all 1,719 applications? How many people were offered interviews? Were only 161 of them? How many applicants got into an allopathic school and then withdrew their application? How many people in that application pool also applied to several other schools and got better offers elsewhere? How many people applied and then later decided they didn't want to go to UMDNJ for whatever reason? Do you understand this point? It's critical that you. Those 1,719 people are not unique individuals that are only applying to UMDNJ. You are assuming that 1,566 applications (1,719 applications - 153 acceptances) were screened and rejected by the school, which is an assumption you just can't make.

Now, they interviewed 161 of them (however they ultimately determined the number that they were going to interview) including those, perhaps, they may have offered the chance to interview but had a better offer elsewhere, etc.

Of those 161 interviewed, they accepted 153. Using your logic, that's over a 95% acceptance rate based on interview. So, if I choose to arbitrarily base it on granted interviews (as you have done on total applications), I could conclude that they pretty much accept everyone they interview. Now, out of those 153 they offered spots to, only 87 enrolled. That's a 44% rejection rate by people who were offered spots. What does that mean? How do you account for that? What happened to those 66 other people? Did they vanish?

I'm not trying to be overly sarcastic here, Sharky. But, a large part of your becoming a physician will involve reading and understanding statistics, especially those published in clinical trials. You will be expected to know what is meaningful and what is not (and why). I'm pointing this out to you to help you learn, because right now this is a huge distinction that you just aren't grasping.

Respectfully,

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Sharky,

No offense intended (really), but you just don't get it. As I said before (and will say again one last time), the number of applications is irrelevant in determining acceptance rates. It is only relevant in determining application rates. If you add up all the applications from all the allopathic schools, you'll get several hundred thousand total applications. Using your logic, this would mean that several hundred thousand people applied to medical school last year, which simply isn't true. There never were that many applicants.

This is a huge distinction that you just aren't grasping.

Respectfully,

-Skip
It is relevant in that for a specific school, it will accept only about 20% of the applicants regardless if those applicants apply to other schools. A school like Ross accepts 50% of their applicants while several DO schools accept 15%. That is a simple fact and it doesn't matter if those applicants go somewhere else anyway.

The fact is, if Ross only accepted 20% of their applicants, their class would be only half as full, they wouldn't fill their class, and so they have to accept more. DO schools only accept anywhere from 5% to 20% of their applicants and are still able to fill their class easily with many times the classes being 200. Doesn't that say something? Probably that the standards at DO schools are a bit higher in terms of acceptances than at caribbean schools.
 
Go back and read the rest of my post above. (I edited in an extensive example using UMDNJ, in all fairness, that you probably didn't read before responding.) It's critical that you understand the distinctions I've laid out.

Sharky said:
It is relevant in that for a specific school, it will accept only about 20% of the applicants regardless if those applicants apply to other schools. A school like Ross accepts 50% of their applicants while several DO schools accept 15%. That is a simple fact and it doesn't matter if those applicants go somewhere else anyway.

As an additional example, Ross may receive 2,400-2,600 applications, let's say, in a given year for about 1,200 spots total. I really don't know if that's true or not, but I suspect that it probably is. Now, many of those applications are sent in by people who have a very low probability of attending. So, one would have to look at viable applications in order for any data to be meaningful. Even if Ross accepted 100% of the students who applied, there still wouldn't be 100% matriculation - which is all that really matters. Just because you apply and an acceptance isn't posted doesn't mean your credentials weren't good enough to get a spot (which is what you're assuming). Believe it or not, people use DO schools as a "back-up plan" too, a fact you seem unwilling to admit or factor into your thinking.

Sharky said:
The fact is, if Ross only accepted 20% of their applicants, their class would be only half as full, they wouldn't fill their class, and so they have to accept more. DO schools only accept anywhere from 5% to 20% of their applicants and are still able to fill their class easily with many times the classes being 200. Doesn't that say something? Probably that the standards at DO schools are a bit higher in terms of acceptances than at caribbean schools.

Yes, it does say something. All that one can conclude from your statements, following your logic to it's conclusion, is that DO schools get more applications than Ross, a probable fact that I won't dispute. It says nothing about the quality of the individual applicants and/or what they did after they applied. (Are you starting to "get" it?)

Again, most respectfully,

-Skip
 
On the UMDNJ example, your points are irrelevant. I didn't caluculate 8.9%, USNEWs did. As I said before, it doesn't matter if all those other students applied to other schools or what happened. Maybe only 161 or so received interviews because the rest were screened off. The point is you do not know why and all you can do is speculate as you are doing. The fact remains that 8.9% of applicants to that school were accepted.

You're reading too far into the statistic as you would like to because having a 50% statistic like Ross just looks bad, which it is. I know that many people view DO school as a backup, but the standards statistically wise show that the standards of DO schools is better than caribbean schools.

Spare me your rather weak attempts at speculating of what happened to the rest of the people that didn't get interviews. Sure they went somewhere else probably but that still doesn't change the fact that 8.9% were accepted of the students that applied to that school.
 
Sharky said:
On the UMDNJ example, your points are irrelevant.

Actually, they're highly relevant. If you don't agree with and/or follow them doesn't mean that they're irrelevant just because you say so.

Sharky said:
I didn't caluculate 8.9%, USNEWs did. As I said before, it doesn't matter if all those other students applied to other schools or what happened. Maybe only 161 or so received interviews because the rest were screened off. The point is you do not know why and all you can do is speculate as you are doing. The fact remains that 8.9% of applicants to that school were accepted.

First off, I'm not worried about who calculated what. In the words of Mark Twain, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." I don't care how some non-statistician reporter at "USNEWs" (whatever that is, you didn't provide a link) miscalculated and misrepresented facts. Secondly, I'm not the one "speculating" about anything. I'm pointing out the fact that we don't know what happened to all of those applications and where the people went who ultimately sent them in. Where each individual applicant ultimately landed is the only thing relevant in this argument. As it stands, you're grossly oversimplifying and inferring a conclusion that is simply not supported by the current data, namely that you only have about a 8.9% shot (in the case of UMDNJ) of getting in if you apply there. In reality, this is highly unlikely to be the case, and we don't have the full picture to infer and come to such a simplistic conclusion. That's my only point, Sharky. Which schools are more competitive isn't part of the debate that I care about. I'm happy to stipulate that it's harder/more competitive to get an acceptance into a U.S. osteopathic school than it is a Caribbean school. Is that what you want me to admit? Even so, this doesn't make this analysis (or, more importantly, your implied conclusion about the analysis) correct.

Sharky said:
You're reading too far into the statistic as you would like to because having a 50% statistic like Ross just looks bad, which it is. I know that many people view DO school as a backup, but the standards statistically wise show that the standards of DO schools is better than caribbean schools.

Now you're speculating on my motivations! :laugh: What irony! Personally, I could care less ultimately which school is better and for what reasons and why. Because, in less than a year I will be a legally credentialled PGY-1 doctor in a residency program.

What I am trying to do is help you understand the shortcomings of your logic (and feel free to forward a link to this page to any statistician at your school... but be forewarned that you better not personally identify yourself as "Sharky" to him/her, especially if a grade depends on it).

You have not proven that any standards are better than anyone else's concerning anything, by the way, with the given data. You have, however, presented a lot of (currently) meaningless data that has been bady analyzed and on which false conclusions have been suggested. All these data show, I'll grant on a prima facie basis, is that DO schools get more applications than Caribbean schools. Beyond that, they are meaningless. And I know that I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you have to look at what the individuals applying (the applicants) ultimately do in order to determine the competitiveness of a program.

Sharky said:
Spare me your rather weak attempts at speculating of what happened to the rest of the people that didn't get interviews. Sure they went somewhere else probably but that still doesn't change the fact that 8.9% were accepted of the students that applied to that school.

Why the nastiness? I'm pointing out the fallacies of your logic, and I'm trying the best I can to do it nicely. I'm sorry if you can't follow it, but I'm certain about two things: (1) you (and whomever wrote the USNEWs report) have come to incorrect conclusions based on inadequate data, and (2) looking at individual applicants and not number of applications is the only thing that's meaningful in this argument. For whatever reason, you're just not getting it. And, I realize that I've probably reached the limit of your ability to do so, for whatever "hidden agenda" or insecurities you may be fostering that I, unlike yourself, won't attempt to speculate upon here.

Still, let me ask you something else, somewhat rhetorically, that I want you to ponder deeply and answer to yourself. Here it is...

At quick glance, how do you determine how "desirable" (e.g. competitive, prestigious, etc.) an osteopathic school is? Would it be by the total number of applications they receive or by a low acceptance rate?

(Are you starting to "get" it yet?)

-Skip
 
Enough of this useless bickering. Let people just read the facts. The facts are that most DO schools have acceptance rates of less than 20% meaning of the number of applicants that apply, only 20% or less are accepted for whatever reason.

Now you can try and reason it out like Skip did or you can look at the facts which is that for some odd reason US MD and DO schools have acceptance rates at 20% or below while for some odd reason caribbean schools have acceptance rates in the 50% range. I wonder why that is.

You've presented what you believed to be right skip, and I have just basically stated the cold hard facts. Let's just let the readers decide instead of posting another long response asking if I got your reasoning.

Sometimes you just have to read the stats as they are.
 
Sharky said:
Enough of this useless bickering. Let people just read the facts. The facts are that most DO schools have acceptance rates of less than 20% meaning of the number of applicants that apply, only 20% or less are accepted for whatever reason.

Uggh! 😡 I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall! What you're not getting is the clear truth that your so-called "facts" are not actually facts but meaningless percentages based on bad calculations of useless data! It's about the total applicants in a given year, man, the applicants and not the number of applications a school gets. (Maybe if I say it enough times it'll start to sink in.)

Okay, I give up. I'm going to stop... or at least try to stop. :laugh:

Sharky said:
Now you can try and reason it out like Skip did or you can look at the facts. You've presented what you believed to be right skip, and I have just basically stated the cold hard facts. Let's just let the readers decide instead of posting another long response asking if I got your reasoning. Sometimes you just have to read the stats as they are.

There was no "trying to reason it out" going on here. I'm fully satisified that what you offered from "USNEWs" is a sophistic misrepresentation of reality, and it is meaningless as posted here. If you think that you just have to "read the stats as they are", you're going to have a LOT of trouble on your licensure exams.

To further the point, I'd like you to take one last shot at this one...

Skip Intro said:
At quick glance, how do you determine how "desirable" (e.g. competitive, prestigious, etc.) an osteopathic school is? Would it be by the total number of applications they receive or by a low acceptance rate?

... because I think if you can attempt to answer that, we can have a really meaningful conversation.

In the meantime, good luck dude. I sincerely wish you the best. You've managed to frustrate the heck out of me (congratulations on that), but that's my problem. I still wish you the best. As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I'm satisfied that you're either not very thirsty, or you're just too stubborn to take the "water" I'm offering.

Peace,

-Skip
 
the facts are this: Most DO's used that route as they failed to get into the US allopathic schools. PD's know this. PD's will choose a DO or an IMG from certain schools by their preference/experience/own personal bias. People get very political on this issue. Distrust anyone who says one pathway is catagorically superiour to the other: they either dont know what their talking about or are pretty much fanatical as any political extremist or Red Sox fan. As for "Rates" and "percentages" thrown out in this thread: scores are so easily manipulated as anyone who quotes usmle pass rates can tell you. Check them out for yourself. You'll find many highly innaccurate if you ask the right questions. Good luck in your search.
 
Sharky said:
I didn't caluculate 8.9%, USNEWs did.

Just one more point on this I thought needed to be shared (my bolding and underlining for emphasis)...

America's Best Medical Schools

A Critique of the U.S. News & World Report Rankings

William C. McGaghie, PhD and Jason A. Thompson

Dr. McGaghie is professor of medical education and professor of preventive medicine, Northwestern University Medical School, Chicago, Illinois. Mr. Thompson is a statistical programmer analyst, Behavioral Medicine Research Group, Department of Psychology, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Rankings of American medical schools published annually by the news magazine U.S. News & World Report are widely used to judge the quality of the schools and their programs. The authors describe and then critique the rankings on methodologic and conceptual grounds, arguing that the annual U.S. News medical school evaluation falls short in both areas. Three categories of program quality indicators different from those used by U.S. News are presented as alternative ways to judge medical schools. The authors conclude that the annual U.S. News & World Report rankings of American medical schools are ill-conceived; are unscientific; are conducted poorly; ignore medical school accreditation; judge medical school quality from a narrow, elitist perspective; and do not consider social and professional outcomes in program quality calculations. The medical school rankings have no practical value and fail to meet standards of journalistic ethics.

http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/10/985

-Skip
 
wow...sharky seems a bit thick, eh???
 
the argument if ROSS is a diploma mill or not... it doesn't really matter!

ROSS U provides the fair opportunity for one that has the dream of becoming an MD.... one that wants to help and heal ppl... one that wants to dedicate his/her life to med.... I just went to the information seminar... lot of info but nothing new for me... it's all stuff you can see on the website... but one thing that lures me is that ....they follow a U.S. Curriculum... do clinicals in the U.S. ....and most important of all... gives you the opportunity to qualify for the USMLE ...and licensing in all 50 states... the OPPORTUNITY!

Now with this opportunity...you could take it to the highest limits... but granted... you could take it to the crap hole! I guess this applys to all potential med students... going to any medical school... it's never automatic... it's how you take advantage of the opportunities...

So while pple are bashing on this and that about ppl from different schools...different countries... etc... wasting away time and energy....there's a new graduate... from ROSS even... thats treating patients... saving lives.... while you're still trying to pass the MCAT or some pre-med course....

In a nut shell.... I rather be treated by a competent doctor... that knows his/her medicine.... no matter where the person went to school... versus by some uncaring...prick that so deep up his own arsh because he graduated from a top U.S. med school that didn't know a dime about medical care.
 
Skip Intro said:
No, actually, it's quite correct.

I think you misunderstood, maybe not intentionally, what the numbers mean and how these statistics are derived. You have to look at the individual applicant's chance of getting a spot in a U.S. allopathic program, not the number of applications for individual programs, when talking about acceptance rates (which is what we're talking about).

Skip

I fully understand the situation but I don't think you do. That statistic makes Ross look even worse. The chances of being accepted to one medical school in the U.S. is 40% assuming one applies to several medical schools. The reality is that many people only apply to a few medical schools and the chance of being accepted is far less than 40%. The report compared one medical school's acceptance rate (Ross) vs. the chance of being accepted to one of the 125 U.S. M.D. schools. That's a ridiculous comparison.
Of course, this is going to inflate the acceptance rate of all medical schools. If we compared the rate of acceptance one would have if he applied to just Ross, AUC and SGU, the rate of acceptance would be much higher than 65%.

However, if you compare Ross or SGU versus any individual U.S. M.D. or D.O. school, then the comparison is not even close. And yes, I'm aware that the acceptance rate is inflated due to the numbers of students who withdraw or decline acceptance. However, the same principles apply to Ross, SGU and any other Caribbean schools. Furthermore, I frankly don't trust the numbers posted by Ross, AUC or SGU because they never officially release these statistics. Caribbean schools don't publish their acceptance rates like U.S. schools. I wouldn't be suprised if the acceptance rate is much higher.

Finally, U.S. medical schools only accept students once in a given year. Ross, and AUC accept students 3 times in a given year. SGU accepts people twice a year. I wonder what the acceptance rate is for SGU in a given year? I know that it's a lot higher than my school.
 
azcomdiddy said:
The report compared one medical school's acceptance rate (Ross) vs. the chance of being accepted to one of the 140 U.S. M.D. and D.O. school.

😕

No it didn't. Any 'reports' had nothing to do with Ross. What are you talking about? I'm not the one who attempted to compare anything based on "application" stats.

azcomdiddy said:
Of course, this is going to inflate the acceptance rate of all medical schools. If we compared the rate of acceptance one would have if he applied to just Ross, AUC and SGU, the rate of acceptance would be much higher than 65%.

Ross has rolling admissions. You can apply for three classes throughout the year. Students also don't typically apply to the Caribbean schools in tandem with their applications to U.S. medical schools - they do it as an after-thought, after they don't get accepted in a U.S. DO or MD program. Others (again, for whatever reason) never apply in the U.S. at all. So, you've already selected out for the 40-45% of the students who couldn't get into a U.S. school somewhere. You're in essence dealing with the pool of 55-60% of applicants who, for whatever reason, didn't get into or didn't want to go in the U.S. That's where you're drawing your applicants from in the case of the Carib schools. And, I like to think that these schools get the cream of what's left of the crop, so to speak.

But, out of those 55-60% of "failed" U.S. applicants each year, a large number of them simply aren't going to apply to the Caribbean because they don't want to go to the Caribbean. Period. I have no idea what number that is. But, the bigger point is you are drawing out of the non-accepted U.S. students.

You also have to factor in that a disproportionate number of the applicants to the Carib schools come from the so-called "more competitive" states. For example, an applicant from Minnesota who is an excellent student may not get a spot there because it's incredibly difficult to get an in-state spot. As we've discussed before, perhaps this person is also not interested in going to a DO school (for whatever reason). They will likely NOT get a spot out-of-state for allopathy due to the way the Federally appointed stipends are mandated in each state, so they don't have many other choices at that point regardless that they are still a qualified applicant.

azcomdiddy said:
Furthermore, I frankly don't trust the numbers posted by Ross or SGU because they never officially release these statistics.

Well, I can't say that I agree or disagree with you. I can only say that you may or may not be right. Certainly, they are not compelled to by any state or federal law(s) that I'm aware of.

azcomdiddy said:
Finally, U.S. medical schools only accept students once in a given year. Ross, and AUC accept students 3 times in a given year. SGU accepts people twice a year. I wonder what the acceptance rate is for SGU in a given year?

This is precisely why trying to compare numbers is bogus. Applications don't matter. Applicants do.

-Skip
 
Skip

I think we can all agree that it is easy getting into Ross, SGU or any other Caribbean school. You can argue to any length but the reality is that SGU accepts more than the 17% of people accepted at AZCOM by a large margin. You know this and I know this. Everyone knows that it is easy to get into a Carib school but much more difficult to pass a Caribbean school.
 
Sharky said:
Someone had the USNEWs stats in another thread so here they are. You will notice that all are below 20% with a few around 21 or 22%. A school like Ross is a lot higher.
****** Applied Interviewed Accepted Enrolled*****


College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific Admissions

Total: 2,254 484 393 185 In state: 685 269 226 130
Out of state: 1,569 215 167 55 Women: 959 203 164 73
Minorities: 797 140 115 15 International: N/A N/A N/A 3
Acceptance rate: 17.4%

Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,236 636 317 225 In state: 418 262 152 128
Out of state: 1,818 374 165 97 Women: 949 270 134 99
Minorities: 462 178 115 81 International: 7 2 2 2
Acceptance rate: 14.2%

Des Moines University Osteopathic Medical Center Admissions

Total: 2,215 500 463 202 In state: 154 90 84 66
Out of state: 2,061 410 379 136 Women: 882 214 122 94
Minorities: 615 88 69 30 International: 111 23 12 2
Acceptance rate: 20.9%

University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,024 232 184 115 In state: 41 28 22 18
Out of state: 1,983 204 162 97 Women: N/A N/A 98 64
Minorities: 564 21 12 8 International: N/A N/A N/A 0
Acceptance rate: 9.1%

Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,692 191 184 125 In state: 444 165 158 112
Out of state: 1,248 26 26 13 Women: 750 98 97 58
Minorities: N/A N/A N/A N/A International: N/A N/A N/A N/A
Acceptance rate: 10.9%

Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,555 534 401 157 In state: 122 47 37 22
Out of state: 2,433 487 364 135 Women: 1,039 198 166 56
Minorities: 487 89 62 12 International: 126 15 9 5
Acceptance rate: 15.7%

University of Health Sciences College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,262 535 475 251 In state: 113 44 46 30
Out of state: 2,149 491 429 221 Women: 946 223 205 108
Minorities: 650 115 95 41 International: 119 33 11 8
Acceptance rate: 21.0%

UMDNJ--School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,719 161 153 87 In state: 310 109 104 72
Out of state: 1,409 52 49 15 Women: 831 82 79 47
Minorities: 216 67 68 38 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 8.9%

New York College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,841 813 491 304 In state: 675 467 300 208
Out of state: 2,166 346 191 96 Women: 1,381 380 255 157
Minorities: 1,094 255 214 129 International: 5 2 2 2
Acceptance rate: 17.3%

Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 717 225 176 108 In state: 279 180 144 90
Out of state: 438 45 32 18 Women: 323 97 79 46
Minorities: 97 49 35 26 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 24.5%

Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,075 199 143 88 In state: 248 151 103 76
Out of state: 827 48 40 12 Women: 432 85 62 41
Minorities: 340 40 30 17 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 13.3%

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 3,430 664 398 251 In state: 547 284 231 156
Out of state: 2,883 380 167 95 Women: 1,609 194 180 115
Minorities: 1,195 137 77 49 International: 0 0 2 2
Acceptance rate: 11.6%

U. of North Texas Health Sci. Center (Texas Col. of Osteopathic Medicine)
Admissions

Total: 1,151 411 146 119 In state: 1,055 393 139 114
Out of state: 96 18 7 5 Women: 541 208 63 64
Minorities: 480 49 42 42 International: 42 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 12.7%

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,408 258 149 80 In state: 171 110 68 54
Out of state: 1,237 148 81 26 Women: 624 44 84 45
Minorities: 291 26 13 5 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 10.6%

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 2,145 403 368 134 In state: 151 125 91 29
Out of state: 1,994 278 277 105 Women: 879 162 150 52
Minorities: 644 121 84 20 International: 16 4 2 0
Acceptance rate: 17.2%

Touro University College of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 1,521 436 214 125 In state: 437 215 122 80
Out of state: 1,084 221 92 45 Women: 618 212 112 61
Minorities: 562 148 82 58 International: 0 0 0 0
Acceptance rate: 14.1%

Pikeville College School of Osteopathic Medicine Admissions

Total: 693 121 88 64 In state: 72 60 46 39
Out of state: 621 61 42 25 Women: 274 48 38 28
Minorities: 24 10 6 2 International: 36 2 0 0
Acceptance rate: 12.7%


bump
 
azcomdiddy said:
Skip

I think we can all agree that it is easy getting into Ross, SGU or any other Caribbean school. You can argue to any length but the reality is that SGU accepts more than the 17% of people accepted at AZCOM by a large margin. You know this and I know this. Everyone knows that it is easy to get into a Carib school but much more difficult to pass a Caribbean school.

Not in dispute.

But, it's important to know what the numbers you're looking at really mean. And, the data offered by "USNEWs" is meaningless as published. I've provided ample argument as to why. It's no longer up to me to convince anyone why that's the case. You either understand and accept it, or you don't. My life goes on either way.

-Skip
 
Skip Intro said:
Not in dispute.

But, it's important to know what the numbers you're looking at really mean. And, the data offered by "USNEWs" is meaningless as published. I've provided ample argument as to why. It's no longer up to me to convince anyone why that's the case. You either understand and accept it, or you don't. My life goes on either way.

-Skip

You are right because our acceptance rate just dropped from the number U.S. News posted.
 
azcomdiddy said:
You are right because our acceptance rate just dropped from the number U.S. News posted.

Right about what? 😕 Or, were you being sarcastic?

I hope what you meant is that you now agree that these calculated percentages are meaningless, and understand why they are meaningless. Otherwise, if you were being sarcastic, I invite you to slow down, re-read the parts of my thread that explain why applicants are more important than applications, and then if you're still not convinced perhaps you can pick-up where Sharky left off and answer the basic questions I posed to her.

Please clarify.

-Skip
 
I hear DeVries University bought Ross AND AUC. They have open houses all over the place. ME?? I attended the Universidad Del Noreste in the early Eighties. BAD Scene! Only a few corpses for Gross Anatomy dug up from Pauper's Graves. The Physiology prof. comes in-like once a Month, takes attendance for the Whole month, and has the students give the class. You could mass cheat on the anatomy exam, and the Dean would come in and yell at everybody, but you passed (Strength in numbers.) IF, OTOH, you were the Lost Sheep and they didn't like your face, they would Fail you in the very same course. Very Arbitrary. The Gobernacion (Immigration Office) gave us a VERY hard time about our Student Visas. It's Crazy! If you do things by the book, like they say they Want you to, you just get into more Trouble. Many of us drove cars down there (since Mexico is Not an Island) but, even the New York office of the medical school (which was worthless, BTW) told us to Register the vehicles Illegally as a tourist, and take the sticker off with paint thinner, and reregister every few months. I did it By the Book-so of course, MY car got confiscated, and I had to hire a lawyer to get it back. Plus, Tampico is a sweltering Hellhole. The majority of us rotated in the States Third and Fourth year "anything North of the Rio Grande vs. anything South!" where we would end up in non-teaching Inner City places, and be used as Surrogate Interns. We also had to lose a year doing Fifth Pathway, paying Ten Grand for MORE Exploitation in New York. And there Are Double Standards in Residency. The Vast Majority of us-if we made it at ALL-ended up in Internal Medicine, Family Practice, Peds or Psych, or maybe ObGyn or Anesthesia. Forget about Surgery, Ophthalmology, ENT, Derm or Rehab Medicine.
 
I hear DeVries University bought Ross AND AUC. They have open houses all over the place.

Wow. Why on earth would you bump at 12-year-old thread just to tell us that? (i.e. something that is completely old news and has nothing to do with anything on this thread) 😕

ME?? I attended the Universidad Del Noreste in the early Eighties. BAD Scene! Only a few corpses for Gross Anatomy dug up from Pauper's Graves. The Physiology prof. comes in-like once a Month, takes attendance for the Whole month, and has the students give the class. You could mass cheat on the anatomy exam, and the Dean would come in and yell at everybody, but you passed (Strength in numbers.) IF, OTOH, you were the Lost Sheep and they didn't like your face, they would Fail you in the very same course. Very Arbitrary. The Gobernacion (Immigration Office) gave us a VERY hard time about our Student Visas. It's Crazy! If you do things by the book, like they say they Want you to, you just get into more Trouble. Many of us drove cars down there (since Mexico is Not an Island) but, even the New York office of the medical school (which was worthless, BTW) told us to Register the vehicles Illegally as a tourist, and take the sticker off with paint thinner, and reregister every few months. I did it By the Book-so of course, MY car got confiscated, and I had to hire a lawyer to get it back. Plus, Tampico is a sweltering Hellhole. The majority of us rotated in the States Third and Fourth year "anything North of the Rio Grande vs. anything South!" where we would end up in non-teaching Inner City places, and be used as Surrogate Interns. We also had to lose a year doing Fifth Pathway, paying Ten Grand for MORE Exploitation in New York. And there Are Double Standards in Residency. The Vast Majority of us-if we made it at ALL-ended up in Internal Medicine, Family Practice, Peds or Psych, or maybe ObGyn or Anesthesia. Forget about Surgery, Ophthalmology, ENT, Derm or Rehab Medicine.

With the more options available since the time you attended, anyone and everyone considering going to school in Mexico should think long and hard before doing so. Even back in the early 2000's when I was at Ross, we had a transfer from Guadalajara.

Likewise, the "Fifth Pathway" is no longer supported by the ECFMG (although they will "grandfather" applicants).

http://www.ecfmg.org/eras/applicants-documents-fifthpathway.html

-Skip
 
I share skips sentiment. Additionally, a lot of schools have open houses. Especially if you go to school on the West Coast in Canada. Domestic schools set up booths all the times at career fairs because there was one school in the entire province and not many schools in the Western part of the country.
 
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