Rough decision: apply again or wait a year?

[MilkmanAl]

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Well, it's about time for me to bite the bullet and prepare for not getting accepted this cycle. I'm retaking the MCAT in June, and I'm trying to ascertain what I'll be doing for the next year. I'll be applying to UMKC's MD-only program when the app becomes available in early May, but I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply early for next cycle and get maximum exposure. I applied sort of late last cycle - AMCAS in late june, but not complete at most schools until late September or early October thanks to a lagging LoR - so I was thinking applying early would help my case. However, I bet my sub 3.0 science GPA has gotten me screened out of a lot of schools. With a year off, I could rectify that problem fairly easily by taking undergrad classes at UMKC. Obviously, I'd also burn a year and accrue another ~$10000 of interest to pay off somewhere down the line.

As of right now, I haven't done a whole lot to improve my application since last summer. I got decent grades last semester, and I'm working and getting ready to start volunteering at a local hospital, but those are the only differences. So what do you think? Take a year and do my informal post-bac or apply again immediately (all the while hoping that I'll get to start at UMKC in January or get pulled off Arkansas's waitlist)?

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, it's about time for me to bite the bullet and prepare for not getting accepted this cycle. I'm retaking the MCAT in June, and I'm trying to ascertain what I'll be doing for the next year. I'll be applying to UMKC's MD-only program when the app becomes available in early May, but I'm trying to decide whether or not I should apply early for next cycle and get maximum exposure. I applied sort of late last cycle - AMCAS in late june, but not complete at most schools until late September or early October thanks to a lagging LoR - so I was thinking applying early would help my case. However, I bet my sub 3.0 science GPA has gotten me screened out of a lot of schools. With a year off, I could rectify that problem fairly easily by taking undergrad classes at UMKC. Obviously, I'd also burn a year and accrue another ~$10000 of interest to pay off somewhere down the line.

As of right now, I haven't done a whole lot to improve my application since last summer. I got decent grades last semester, and I'm working and getting ready to start volunteering at a local hospital, but those are the only differences. So what do you think? Take a year and do my informal post-bac or apply again immediately (all the while hoping that I'll get to start at UMKC in January or get pulled off Arkansas's waitlist)?

Don't waste time retaking the MCAT. There are NO schools on your list that rejected you for a balanced 35. None. Not one. Nada. If you retook and got a 40 your results would likely be the same. Every med school has folks with lower MCAT scores than a 35, that truly isn't the snag. The law of diminishing returns applies to MCAT and once you get above a certain threshold, the incremental benefit of scoring a point or two higher drops to near zero. A 35 is basically that range. But you have a lot of potential to screw up and fall out of contention. So don't do it. Point is there is no good reason retaking a 35 MCAT, and you will look foolish to schools for having done so. Tells them your head is not in the right place and you aren't trying to fix what's broke.

A 3.1 GPA with a sub 3 in the sciences is far more likely to have killed you. Lack of clinical experience/volunteering probably played a role. A late app likely didn't help. And who knows how you fared with the non-numeric parts of your app (LORs, essays, interviews). If you can get feedback from a school or two that rejected you as to how to improve for next cycle, then take it. You are flailing around with clearly no clue. But focusing any effort on improving a 35 MCAT tells me that you are more apt to work on the things you are already good at than the things you are bad at, which is a bad way to improve yourself. The MCAT is done. Spend the time on the stuff you need to fix.

 

[MilkmanAl]

And who knows how you fared with the non-numeric parts of your app (LORs, essays, interviews). If you can get feedback from a school or two that rejected you as to how to improve for next cycle, then take it.

I'm told that my essays and LoR's are excellent, and my only interview went incredibly well. Also, my EC's are apparently fine, and being a pharmacy tech (rightfully) qualifies as clinical experience. That's all according to Arkansas's admissions director, mind you. I'm not sure how you can characterize me as "flailing around with no clue" when I've already taken steps to address my deficiencies. I'm trying to get a volunteer position (which is getting held up by an absurdly lengthy background check *grumble*), and I'll be taking courses next year to improve my GPA if I don't get in.

I'm retaking the MCAT because I believe I can score significantly higher than I did the first time. I didn't study sufficiently and missed some things I should have known. Clearly the score is not my problem, but ratcheting it up a few points isn't going to hurt. Why would schools see a retake as foolish, given that I'm invested in the other areas of my application as well?

 

[URHere]

I think there are a few very key things to think about before taking again.

1) Your chances of improving: yes you may study more than last time, but there is a chance that your score will go down. There is a figure somewhere online that shows the average improvements of students retaking the MCAT, when you get up to students retaking with already high numbers, there is a tendency to do worse. You may be more ready than before, but maybe the test you get will be harder for you, maybe the people testing on your day will do better overall. I personally don't think it's worth giving up a 35 for another score when that score may have you kicking yourself.

2) How schools will view your retake: I think this is kind of a lose/lose situation. If you do worse, schools are likely to view your good first score as a fluke. Either way, it's your new school that they will pay attention to, and (I'm just going to be blunt) with your GPA you can't afford for that school to be lower. Even if your score improves, some schools may question your retake and assume that your priorities are off. It just makes you seem like nothing less than 99.9th percentile is good enough for you, and not all schools will view that positively.

Honestly, I don't think it's worth the risk or the cash. Get more volunteer experience, take some difficult courses to prove that you are up to par academically, pin down some new and interesting ECs. With a low GPA you have an obligation to stand out, and taking your MCAT up a few points isn't the best way to make that happen.

 

[Perrotfish]

I think I´ve said this to you before, but I´ll try again. If you want to get in for 2009, you need to spend 2008 doing an Special Masters Program. Your situation is exactly what an SMP is designed for: High MCAT, great ECs and LORs, and a GPA that is both way too low and difficult to fix. I would recommend Tulane ACP, EVMS, Georgetown, and Drexel to start with. Those programs all have 80% - 95% success rates in terms of getting their students accepted to medical school. If, around winter, you update your application for class of 2009 with your stellar grades in your 2008 SMP program, I think you´ll start seeing more interviews and/or acceptances.

Also I´m not sure an informal postbac is going to do a lot for you. If you were a double science major you´re going to be seeing a pretty tiny improvment in your GPAs, even if you get a 4.0.

Your MCAT is excellent, BTW. Don´t retake it.

 

[pride4jc727]

I would say I also had a rough year as well since I applied to 16 schools, decided to send 13 secondaries, and only got interviewed at 3. I got waitlisted at 2 schools. At the third one, I didn't get a decisions but a letter saying that I was placed on the very competitive category was written and that no decision on either acceptance or wait list placement will be made until later this month. So for me, I really need to consider a re-application if this last school doesn't work out.

In your case, I think you just need to apply early if you plan on reapplying. But yes, I would definitely do a post-bac and work real hard to show that you have actually improved since then and understand the pre-medical requisites that are vital to med school admission. You can do this concurrently or you can do a post-bac this year and apply next year. If you want to get in right away, do them both at the same time.

 

[MilkmanAl]

All right, no retaking the MCAT. Got it.

You'd mentioned the SMP's before, but I'm not entirely sure that's what I want to do. I suppose I should at least send out an application, assuming I still can.

You can do (a post-bac) concurrently or you can do a post-bac this year and apply next year. If you want to get in right away, do them both at the same time.

I worry that I'll be rejected before my semester grades are available or even before the semester starts if I apply early in the summer (which I would definitely do if I apply again next cycle). Is that an irrational fear?

 

[flip26]

An SMP with a linkage is the golden ticket for you - you are the reason they have SMPs - applicants with strong MCAT and weak GPA.

Whatever you do, do NOT retake that beautiful MCAT.

 

[ephedra]

Hello I am on the admissions committee at a major Medical School. Actually I just got back from speaking on a panel to over 300 pre-meds.
My quick answer to your situation is -wait a year. You have severe problems with your application. You need to prove you can do the work. A 3.1 only proves that you cant, even with a decent MCAT. Take numerous upper level courses and do very well. If I saw your application again the year after your rejection with out improving your app by extra coursework and "real clinical experiences" (ps pharm tech does not count) I wouldnt offer you an interview even if I did the year before.

oh yeah one more thing. What ever you do do not take the MCAT again. You are crazy to even think that would help. You should spend the time you were going to use to study for the MCAT getting clinical experiences.

 

[MilkmanAl]

oh yeah one more thing. What ever you do do not take the MCAT again. You are crazy to even think that would help.

Yes, yes, I get the point. Thanks for your purely objective analysis of my situation.

I'm applying to Tulane as we speak, and EVMS is probably next up. Drexel, too. I'll take a look at Georgetown, but we shall see.

Again, though, I worry about getting rejected before my SMP/post-bac grades are posted for the first semester.

 

[nick_carraway]

Yes, yes, I get the point. Thanks for your purely objective analysis of my situation.

I'm applying to Tulane as we speak, and EVMS is probably next up. Drexel, too. I'll take a look at Georgetown, but we shall see.

Again, though, I worry about getting rejected before my SMP/post-bac grades are posted for the first semester.

That is a perfectly reasonable fear, in my opinion. It's why I don't agree with SMP policies of applying to schools while you're in the program. Certainly a few schools wouldn't hurt, but don't apply to your full list without all your grades in the basket. Most school will interview you with some grades but won't accept you without all of them.

That's why the previous poster suggested waiting a full year to fix the major GPA concern.

Personally, I'm in a similar position as you and I've already decided to take the route of a post-bacc/SMP that requires waiting a full year before reapplying after talking to several admissions officers who rejected me.

 

[aaw2107]

Hey Milkman,
I know you probably have your heart set on an MD program but hear me out. I also had a good MCAT and ****ty UG grades. And I applied to DO schools as well as MD. Obviously you are a talented student so you'll be able to do whatever specialty you want regardless of whether you go MD or DO. KCOM/ATSU in Kirksville, MO is an EXCELLENT school. I was accepted there and turned it down for personal reasons but I am telling you, go there and you will get an EXCELLENT education. Just a thought. I know it's difficult having your heart set on MD and then considering DO. I went through it and am finally happy with my decision to attend a DO school next year.

If you decide to apply DO next time, you should also check out PCOM, which is just as good as the other schools in Philly such as Temple, Drexel, etc. and will set you up for an awesome residency.

Good luck to you!

 

[mikkey]

Why are you even thinking of retaking the MCAT?! I hate to say, but a fanatastic score won't make up for the fact that you have a subpar GPA. Your best bet would either be to do a SMP, but your GPA seems ok for that, although the science part of it is very borderline. Or you could do as planned and keep doing science courses at your current school.
Also, as someone pointed out earlier, you should definitely go out there and shadow, take care of sick kids and generally exposing yourself to the medical profession. On top of getting LORs, you will learn about what it really means to be a Dr and hence Adcoms will show you more love.
Good Luck!

PS: EVMS Med Master deadline was April 1st

 

[Ihateverbal]

I'm a first year med student and a student interviewer at my school.

I have to tell you one thing that's really important...I interviewed a candidate way back in the fall who actually interviewed for the school the same year I did (for matriculation of fall 2007). Anyways, he was on the waitlist and didn't get in so he reapplied for fall 2008 (your application cycle this year).

He made NO improvements on his application. Nada! Turns out I was his student interviewer, and I wrote up an evaluation page on this student. As much as I really liked him as a candidate, we also have to conjure up weaknesses/strengths. I had to add the fact that nothing on his application changed from his last application. Our admissions lets us know who gets in and who doesn't and I know as of this day, he has still not been accepted.

Don't fall into the same mistake.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Hey, thanks for that ACP link, Perrotfish. That looks like a great program. It's certainly going to make being waitlisted a whole lot more interesting, though. Assuming I get accepted - which is definitely a long shot this late in the application process - I'll have about 2 weeks from May 15 to find out if I get accepted at Arkansas or owe Tulane $12500. This **** never ends.

He made NO improvements on his application. Nada! Don't fall into the same mistake.

I'm trying not to, I promise!

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, you should definitely go out there and shadow, take care of sick kids and generally exposing yourself to the medical profession. On top of getting LORs, you will learn about what it really means to be a Dr and hence Adcoms will show you more love.

I've already shadowed a hell of a lot, but more couldn't hurt.

If you decide to apply DO next time, you should also check out PCOM, which is just as good as the other schools in Philly such as Temple, Drexel, etc. and will set you up for an awesome residency.

Yeah, the more I think about it, it seems like applying to DO schools and maybe a couple MD schools that didn't crap all over me might be a good plan for this summer.

Man, I sure hope I'm going berserk over this contingency plan stuff for no reason.

 

[mikkey]

I'm a first year med student and a student interviewer at my school.

I have to tell you one thing that's really important...I interviewed a candidate way back in the fall who actually interviewed for the school the same year I did (for matriculation of fall 2007). Anyways, he was on the waitlist and didn't get in so he reapplied for fall 2008 (your application cycle this year).

He made NO improvements on his application. Nada! Turns out I was his student interviewer, and I wrote up an evaluation page on this student. As much as I really liked him as a candidate, we also have to conjure up weaknesses/strengths. I had to add the fact that nothing on his application changed from his last application. Our admissions lets us know who gets in and who doesn't and I know as of this day, he has still not been accepted.

Don't fall into the same mistake.

So what did he do for an entire year?

 

[Ihateverbal]

He interviewed in March/April 2007, the same time I did...unfortunately he was in-state and got waitlisted...he applied the following summer, filled our AMCAS and got an interview in the early fall...

nothing new happened between march and early fall.

 

[Daydreamer2008]

He interviewed in March/April 2007, the same time I did...unfortunately he was in-state and got waitlisted...he applied the following summer, filled our AMCAS and got an interview in the early fall...

nothing new happened between march and early fall.

how do you get to be an interviewer during M1, that's crazy!

 

[Perrotfish]

I've already shadowed a hell of a lot, but more couldn't hurt

One last thought. If you´re looking into DO, you need to shadow a DO. They generally want you to have a letter of rec from someone in the field, to make sure you´re not seeing DO as just a backup to MD (which you are, but don´t tell them that).

Also, if you haven´t found it yet, the big list of SMPs is here

Good luck

 

[mikkey]

He interviewed in March/April 2007, the same time I did...unfortunately he was in-state and got waitlisted...he applied the following summer, filled our AMCAS and got an interview in the early fall...

nothing new happened between march and early fall.

So what are some of the things your committee likes to see as improvment in a re-applicant? SMP? More clinical?

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Yeah, the more I think about it, it seems like applying to DO schools and maybe a couple MD schools that didn't crap all over me might be a good plan for this summer.

KCUMB is nice and close to you. 😉

 

[sftiger85]

Here's my situation: 35 MCAT, 3.4 science and overall GPA from Princeton. I applied to 20 schools and wasn't interviewed. My school premed committee adviser is puzzled, and told me to get feedback from some of the schools. I spoke with the director of admissions at Georgetown, who told me I should do an SMP year and reapply. I just wanted to get a few other opinions, and as most admissions departments are telling me to call back in May or June, I thought this might be a good place get some advice.

 

[Dane07MD]

Here's my situation: 35 MCAT, 3.4 science and overall GPA from Princeton. I applied to 20 schools and wasn't interviewed. My school premed committee adviser is puzzled, and told me to get feedback from some of the schools. I spoke with the director of admissions at Georgetown, who told me I should do an SMP year and reapply. I just wanted to get a few other opinions, and as most admissions departments are telling me to call back in May or June, I thought this might be a good place get some advice.

My interviewer the other day at Georgetown told me that they don't look too highly upon anyone from an Ivy league school that has less than a 3.8. Plain and simply, they have this notion that Ivy league schools grade inflate. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this theory, nor know nothing about Princeton's grading, but a 3.4 from Princeton with no interviews would lead me to believe that other schools may feel the same way. Grades/MCAT are only a portion of the equation...some schools look more highly upon service dedication and real-life experiences. SMPs are great (I'm in the Georgetown one, and tripled my number of interviews from last year) but they are expensive, and one needs to carefully evaluate whether or not they need to invest in one, or strengthen other parts of the app. If the Georgetown dean suggested it, it can't hurt.

 

[sftiger85]

Thanks for responding. I have heard that some have this opinion, even though Princeton started a grade deflation policy my freshman year. I'm still on the fence on whether it would be a better use of my time next year to do the SMP or to try to boost my clinical experience. I'm from California and would love to go to school in-state, but they are pretty tough to get into and none have SMP programs.

 

[sftiger85]

Also quick question about SMP's. The idea is that you boost your science GPA correct? Does this mean you are expected to get upwards of 3.7 in classes with all medical students? Also is it difficult to get into SMP programs?

 

[mimivirus]

hey! im an asian girl who graduated from harvard with a sub 3.5 overall and sub 3.4 science and a 35 mcat (like the OP i felt i could score higher, and DEFINITELY have in practice tests, so against EVERYONE's advice retook it with high and very stressful expectations--performed poorly and drove home crying (yea i'm LAME!!! sorry!!)) at any rate i ended up with same score tho diff breakdown--so if schools actually DO look at both scores and take the highest i guess my mcat could be considered a 37--totally NOT worth retaking and causing my app to be maddd late (most secondaries submitted within a week of the deadline)...

i received interviews at 15 schools including 5 in the usnews top ten (harvard, duke, stanford, hopkins, ucla). i think the big difference between me and sftiger is that i applied to over 40 medschools and that really helped my chances--also i graduated in 06--and i think the time taken off and my activities post-grad boosted my application. at any rate i KNEW i was at a HUGE disadvantage for my crappy gpa and so spent the last two years literally working my *** off--research, post-bac courses, LOTS of leadership, volunteering, mentoring (all things i was involved in during undergrad but that i took to a higher notch during my time off and truly committed my (post-grad) life to) which all directed me even more strongly toward medicine and was something i could speak wholeheartedly about during my interviews. i could not afford to do an SMP program but i have heard that they are helpful--spending time taken off and investing it in something you are passionate about (not something random, but that seems like a logical progression from your involvement in undergrad and is something you can really see yourself selling out a social life for) can also help (i know other--reapplicants--who took some time off working and were greatly successful the second go around) (and i made (though a measly amount) money in the process) =) --if you'd like more specifics pm me...sorry if this post is incoherent =P!! i just really wanted to respond to the post re: ivy grads with a sub 3.8 gpa--most of my friends have a sub-3.8 gpa and have done just fine post-grad!!! (including in the med school application process)--and if i saw that post as a pre-med i would have been totally discouraged..

best of luck i think i really lucked out/was blessed in this process i didnt think id get very far at all with my gpa...so def

Here's my situation: 35 MCAT, 3.4 science and overall GPA from Princeton. I applied to 20 schools and wasn't interviewed. My school premed committee adviser is puzzled, and told me to get feedback from some of the schools. I spoke with the director of admissions at Georgetown, who told me I should do an SMP year and reapply. I just wanted to get a few other opinions, and as most admissions departments are telling me to call back in May or June, I thought this might be a good place get some advice.

 

[sftiger85]

Hey mimi, thats pretty reassuring, seems like we are in similar boats although you seem to have more experience, hopefully I can improve that aspect this next year. What specific things have you done in your two years, and would recommend someone in a similar position doing? Also do you know where you're going next fall? Anyway best of luck!

 

[bellacnella]

I'm told that my essays and LoR's are excellent, and my only interview went incredibly well. Also, my EC's are apparently fine, and being a pharmacy tech (rightfully) qualifies as clinical experience. That's all according to Arkansas's admissions director, mind you. I'm not sure how you can characterize me as "flailing around with no clue" when I've already taken steps to address my deficiencies. I'm trying to get a volunteer position (which is getting held up by an absurdly lengthy background check *grumble*), and I'll be taking courses next year to improve my GPA if I don't get in.

I'm retaking the MCAT because I believe I can score significantly higher than I did the first time. I didn't study sufficiently and missed some things I should have known. Clearly the score is not my problem, but ratcheting it up a few points isn't going to hurt. Why would schools see a retake as foolish, given that I'm invested in the other areas of my application as well?

I might be wrong but I think your MCAT is so high that taking it up a few points wont help either. If you put all of your efforts into bringing the gpa up, i think you will be in a great position.

PS: I was a pharm tech too, and was asked about it at all of my interviews! Its good to be able to talk about patient and physician interaction. Good luck 🙂

 

[Scean]

get that gpa up and you are set,


Get into a postbacc and take a bunch of medically related upper level sciences (cellular biology, microbiology, pharmacology, neurobiology, genetics, some sort of advanced anatomy, whatever) enhance your study habits, adequately prepare yourself for the absolutely ridiculously murderous onslaught of hard science material that is the first two years of medical school (or so i hear, im a lowley premed myself)

GPA up, more exposure = you will be a doctor

GL

 

[Scean]

get that gpa up and you are set,


Get into a postbacc and take a bunch of medically related upper level sciences (cellular biology, microbiology, pharmacology, neurobiology, genetics, some sort of advanced anatomy, whatever) enhance your study habits, adequately prepare yourself for the absolutely ridiculously murderous onslaught of hard science material that is the first two years of medical school (or so i hear, im a lowley premed myself)

GPA up, more exposure = you will be a doctor

GL

Oh, and DEAR GOD do not take the MCAT again, you have absolutely nothing to gain what was that score like 95% percentile? common...

 

[mimivirus]

pmed you =)

Hey mimi, thats pretty reassuring, seems like we are in similar boats although you seem to have more experience, hopefully I can improve that aspect this next year. What specific things have you done in your two years, and would recommend someone in a similar position doing? Also do you know where you're going next fall? Anyway best of luck!

 

[bellacnella]

Hello I am on the admissions committee at a major Medical School. Actually I just got back from speaking on a panel to over 300 pre-meds.
My quick answer to your situation is -wait a year. You have severe problems with your application. You need to prove you can do the work. A 3.1 only proves that you cant, even with a decent MCAT. Take numerous upper level courses and do very well. If I saw your application again the year after your rejection with out improving your app by extra coursework and "real clinical experiences" (ps pharm tech does not count) I wouldnt offer you an interview even if I did the year before.

oh yeah one more thing. What ever you do do not take the MCAT again. You are crazy to even think that would help. You should spend the time you were going to use to study for the MCAT getting clinical experiences.

Not to attack you, but why doesn't pharm tech count? (What if you did it in a hospital or clinic?) You interact with patients, deal with their prescriptions, doctors, diagnosis, etc? This is what I consider a part of the ridiculous aspect of med school admissions..."Why did you do X and not Y?"

 

[MilkmanAl]

Not to attack you, but why doesn't pharm tech count? (What if you did it in a hospital or clinic?) You interact with patients, deal with their prescriptions, doctors, diagnosis, etc? This is what I consider a part of the ridiculous aspect of med school admissions..."Why did you do X and not Y?"

I agree. I know plenty of people who have worked/volunteered at hospitals and done nothing but stock shelves and ferry stuff (not patients, mind you) around to different wings and floors.

 

[Pewl]

I agree with the above posters that you should NOT retake the MCAT. I do agree you should take some sort of postbacc to show you can do well in classes.

This is something that bugs me about med school admissions committees. Sometimes people do poorly grade-wise in undergrad because they truly do take some ridiculously tough courses at a ridiculously competitive school in a ridiculously competitive major. It's unfortunate that many admissions committees do not take this into account.

I am also a firm believer that what you have done in the past is a poor indicator of what you are capable of. I did average in undergrad at a large public university in California (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD... one of these). Sometimes people simply grow up and mature in a year or so. In medical school I am suddenly highly motivated and am doing very well in all my courses. Again, this is not something an admissions committee can or will take into account. All they have to go by are people who have very high grades in undergrad and simply assume they will do super well in med school (This has not always been the case either). I think part of my motivation to do well was to prove to myself and others that I could destroy the people who had high numbers in undergrad and show that I belong with them here in med school. Heh.

but anyway, whether it's pride or desire that motivates you, you still gotta show the committee on paper that they should take you. Best of luck.