RVU Accreditation Delay

[DrMom]

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OP banned for this post?? I thought there was no TOS violation, and it seems to be an interesting discussion at least...

The OP was someone with an existing account who opened the new account and sockpuppeted. It had nothing to do with the content.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The OP was someone with an existing account who opened the new account and sockpuppeted. It had nothing to do with the content.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I am going to go out on a limb... I am guessing it is a second account, and THAT IS against the TOS... Anyway, no they can't tell you why the person was banned, but that's my first guess.... Since Shyrem is a mod, it would take her .2 seconds to figure out if the person had another handle.

Back to the situation, ok, they aren't accredited by a normal US group. Fair enough, I misread/misunderstood... either way, I still think RVU has potential to be a good school. Someone asked for schools that CAN be for profit and provide a decent education where the graduates are NOT laughed out of interviews... I came up with Argosy university and Devry. I know graduates of both who work in their respective fields and make the same or more than I make with my 'legit' 4-yr science degree. Additionally, South University, which has many health programs, is for profit... and people apply all the time to their PA and Pharm programs... Additionally, I've said this before... NPO/FP is a tax status, ALL schools are out to make money, and LECOM is 'NPO' but certainly doesn't act that way... soooo, who cares... all of this is just a way to keep us busy 😉

 

[livedie]

Although I am going to go to a MD school I continue to follow the DO forums. For the most part the information that I obtain is usefull, and the participants are usually easy going and non judgemental. However when it comes to the topic of RVU I have never understood why people are so mean and disrespectful towards this school. The students that attend there are our peers, and this is THEIR home. If you do not like the school do not apply or attend. How would you feel if you read on a forum that your school accredidation is in question, and then find out the information is incorrect?

 

[JaggerPlate]

I am going to go out on a limb... I am guessing it is a second account, and THAT IS against the TOS... Anyway, no they can't tell you why the person was banned, but that's my first guess.... Since Shyrem is a mod, it would take her .2 seconds to figure out if the person had another handle.

Back to the situation, ok, they aren't accredited by a normal US group. Fair enough, I misread/misunderstood... either way, I still think RVU has potential to be a good school. Someone asked for schools that CAN be for profit and provide a decent education where the graduates are NOT laughed out of interviews... I came up with Argosy university and Devry. I know graduates of both who work in their respective fields and make the same or more than I make with my 'legit' 4-yr science degree. Additionally, South University, which has many health programs, is for profit... and people apply all the time to their PA and Pharm programs... Additionally, I've said this before... NPO/FP is a tax status, ALL schools are out to make money, and LECOM is 'NPO' but certainly doesn't act that way... soooo, who cares... all of this is just a way to keep us busy 😉

Yeah, Dr. Mom said above it was someone who made a second account to troll.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Jagger, somehow my phone didn't show me the last two posts... either way... I thought it was pretty obvious 😉

 

[DocEspana]

The OP was someone with an existing account who opened the new account and sockpuppeted. It had nothing to do with the content.

ahh. so its not me and my secret second handle as was (joking I hope) suggested. Phew. I was worried I was sleep bashing or had a dissociative fugue when discussing RVU

 

[peppy]

Although I am going to go to a MD school I continue to follow the DO forums. For the most part the information that I obtain is usefull, and the participants are usually easy going and non judgemental. However when it comes to the topic of RVU I have never understood why people are so mean and disrespectful towards this school. The students that attend there are our peers, and this is THEIR home. If you do not like the school do not apply or attend. How would you feel if you read on a forum that your school accredidation is in question, and then find out the information is incorrect?

Thank goodness that Abraham Flexner wasn't afraid of hurting people's feelings.

I don't think most of us have anything against the students who attend these schools, but hopefully they were aware of the risks of attending a new and unproven school when they decided to accept the spot there.
The reason that some of us get so angry about this school is because we've already invested a lot of time and money into getting a DO degree and don't want to see our degree become a joke because of a few greedy people out there who are opening sketchy schools. It reflects poorly on all physicians if there are sub-par med schools out there, and especially poorly on DOs (considering that there is still some prejudice about DOs out there).

 

[livedie]

Thank goodness that Abraham Flexner wasn't afraid of hurting people's feelings.

I don't think most of us have anything against the students who attend these schools, but hopefully they were aware of the risks of attending a new and unproven school when they decided to accept the spot there.
The reason that some of us get so angry about this school is because we've already invested a lot of time and money into getting a DO degree and don't want to see our degree become a joke because of a few greedy people out there who are opening sketchy schools. It reflects poorly on all physicians if there are sub-par med schools out there, and especially poorly on DOs (considering that there is still some prejudice about DOs out there).

Aren't all schools (MD and DO) not proven when they are new? Isn't that why they are granted temporary accredidation, and then after a few years granted a permanent one after the school meets certain criteria?

 

[Bones DO]

Aren't all schools (MD and DO) not proven when they are new? Isn't that why tey are get temporary accredidation, and then after a few years granted a permanent one after the school meets certain criteria?

👍👍

And 👍 to your post before this one.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

So why then is no one complaining about William Carey or Pacific Northwestern? Why is it that you people who are SO concerned about us pre-meds ONLY bash RVU? It is possible for this school to provide a decent education. I have spoken with several students via this forum and in person and they ALL LOVE the school and feel they are getting an education superior to other schools. They were ALL offered other acceptances and CHOSE RVU! It wasn't a last resort! Personally, this is my TOP choice...

Why is the AOA being brought into this when the former president Peter B. Ajluni, DO, said:
"Responding specifically to Dr Mychaskiw's letter, I caution against a priori condemnation of an institution just because of its tax status. There are many socially minded for-profit companies that contribute time, resources, and profits to their communities. Conversely, the US Congress is now chastising many nonprofit hospitals for not engaging in charitable missions. I believe it is the leadership of an organization—for-profit or nonprofit—that determines whether an institution has a larger social mission.

That being said, I have been in contact with Ronnie B. Martin, DO, the dean of the for-profit Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine (RVUCOM) in Parker, Colo. He has assured me that for-profit institutions like RVUCOM can further the cause of osteopathic medicine in the United States. Dr Martin and other RVUCOM leaders are confident that the new school will be a positive force in its geographic region—as well as in the larger osteopathic medical community.

Rest assured that I have no support for Caribbean and other offshore schools that do not have the accreditation status or the missions that COMs in the United States now have. And I will strongly oppose any Caribbean school setting up a "DO diploma mill."

As the current AOA president, I will certainly advocate only for the best for the osteopathic medical profession. I encourage AOA members to inform me of anything they believe indicates that RVUCOM—or any other COM—is not meeting its responsibility to osteopathic medicine's mission."

Clearly the AOA does NOT feel as the previous posters have stated...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So why then is no one complaining about William Carey or Pacific Northwestern? Why is it that you people who are SO concerned about us pre-meds ONLY bash RVU? It is possible for this school to provide a decent education. I have spoken with several students via this forum and in person and they ALL LOVE the school and feel they are getting an education superior to other schools. They were ALL offered other acceptances and CHOSE RVU! It wasn't a last resort! Personally, this is my TOP choice...

That's a very bad observation, most pre-meds and med students on here bash WCU and the other Walmart Medical schools that COCA has spawned along with RVU. You're just simply selectively processing the information which involves RVU and attaching emotional content to it as opposed to WCU which you likely couldn't give two flying craps about.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Really? I haven't seen any ANY posts about what a horrible place WCU is... I repeatedly see posts come up regularly about RVU...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Really? I haven't seen any ANY posts about what a horrible place WCU is... I repeatedly see posts come up regularly about RVU...

There was a thread about 3 months ago on WCU, there was also a huge thread 2 weeks ago about how LECOM is a Diploma mill( Never mentioned RVU once in 3 pages). Not to mention thousands of other threads about how LECOM has Concentration Camp like regulations everything from dress to eating and how the owners of LECOM are greedy. There was also a topic either on Pre-allo or here about a month ago on the opening of a bunch of new schools soon which might screw over the medical profession and make our pay under 100k. Then there was also one on the opening of Marian University and how it's going to be a Walmart style university. There was also another thread which talked about how NSU doesn't prep students for the boards and how crappy some of its policies are and then a bunch of other sub-topics within those threads on other universities.
That being said, the last RVU thread, not counting this one was made about a year ago.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I was only saying that the comments about how it is a 'new' school are out of line when the other 'new' schools aren't bashed equally. LECOM is an entity unto itself... that school would honestly be one of my last choices, but beggars can't be choosers... I recall seeing 1 WCU post, beyond that, it is RVU that takes the most heat, by far... My problem with all of it is that yes, RVU is for-profit, but LECOM basically is for-profit and somehow maintains a NPO status.... and as you pointed out, there are other schools that offer little to their students, yet their NPO status doesn't matter, they do nothing but it's ok because they're NPO??? That makes no sense, that's why I say, just because a school is for-profit it doesn't mean they will fail and be like a Carib school or other for-profit UG school...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I was only saying that the comments about how it is a 'new' school are out of line when the other 'new' schools aren't bashed equally. LECOM is an entity unto itself... that school would honestly be one of my last choices, but beggars can't be choosers... I recall seeing 1 WCU post, beyond that, it is RVU that takes the most heat, by far... My problem with all of it is that yes, RVU is for-profit, but LECOM basically is for-profit and somehow maintains a NPO status.... and as you pointed out, there are other schools that offer little to their students, yet their NPO status doesn't matter, they do nothing but it's ok because they're NPO??? That makes no sense, that's why I say, just because a school is for-profit it doesn't mean they will fail and be like a Carib school or other for-profit UG school...

Not all schools are created equally. RVU has pluses and then it has it's minues, like any other school. It's all relative I suppose, but For Profit status does do a lot to damage it's reputation and only hurts its students. It might not be like a Carib school, but it's further down the spectrum is all I can say. Anyways, you traversed around my last post's point, no school is beyond comment and bashing, don't feel especially targeted because you like RVU.

 

[livedie]

As an american that is strongly for capitalism...What is wrong with a for profit school? I would think that is more of an incentive for the "owners" of the school to want a sucessful school.

Someone mentionedthey are worried about RVU because if they produce bad DO's it reflects on the profession. I disagree with that the craigslist killer was a 2nd year at BU, and students are still applying there by the thousands..

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

As an american that is strongly for capitalism...What is wrong with a for profit school? I would think that is more of an incentive for the "owners" of the school to want a sucessful school.

Someone mentionedthey are worried about RVU because if they produce bad DO's it reflects on the profession. I disagree with that the craigslist killer was a 2nd year at BU, and students are still applying there by the thousands..

Please familiarize yourself with the history of US medical practice and education and why our system is the way is today. The answer, to save you time is both to protect patients and keep medicine from being a monopolizable corporation. Furthermore your rationalization of this by citing the Craigslist killer... Well really now? 1 Nutjob doesn't represent an institute, however an institute represents all of it's students..
Overall there is so much wrong with your thought process that it idk... I'm left simply speechless.

 

[livedie]

Please familiarize yourself with the history of US medical practice and education and why our system is the way is today. The answer to save you time is both to protect patients and keep medicine from being a monopolizable corporation. Furthermore your rationalization of this by citing the Craigslist killer... Well really now? 1 Nutjob doesn't represent an institute, however an institute represents all of it's students..
Overall there is so much wrong with your thought process that it idk... I'm left simply speechless.

I can admit my faults and yes it was a poor joke mentioning the Craigslist killer and I apologize for that. Humor on SDN has a 50/50 chance of being funny. Comedy was never my speciality. My point is one RVU profit school does not represent the whole DO graduating community, and if YOU do not like a particular school YOU should not go. If a school goes through the same accredidations as other schools it deserves the same respect. I do not know the stats and I am not as smart as you to look them up, but the exsistance of RVU is not going to tear down a profession that has been around for many years.
Thank you for saving me time by giving me your condensed answer, before you became speechless. Obviously the fact that a for profit school exsists shows I can not be the only one that agrees with its opening.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I think the main concern is that it would turn into an ITT, or Globe College, or something that gives out degrees that aren't worth as much as the paper they're printed on. However, I don't see this as possible in this system. In the olden days (which was about 100 years ago for the record) any school (most were for-profit) could open a 'medical' school, charge tuition, and send out people as 'doctors'. There was no standardized curriculum or entrance requirements. It only mattered that a person could pay tuition. Until Johns Hopkins came into being; Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Columbia quickly followed. Because of what happened 100-150 years ago, people STILL worry, despite the innumerable levels of regulation, that a for-profit school could STILL produce a charlatan doctor. That's what happened THEN... so it MUST be able to happen NOW... However, there was little oversight at that time, and now there is a crapload. Even as few as 25 years ago a person could sit for nursing boards without schooling, if you passed, you could be an RN, however, that hasn't been true of the medical profession for (again) about 100 years... I just do not believe the same things can happen now as they did then, RVU still has to maintain similar levels academic standards for entrance and testing as EVERY other DO school. If they have shady admittance practices, they'll lose their accreditation, if they can't pass a class full of students, they'll lose their accreditation... Things aren't like they were 100 years ago, in so many ways, none of us could count them all.... While I am not a fan of for-profit schools, I just don't think it will 'ruin' the DO or MD system....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I can admit my faults and yes it was a poor joke mentioning the Craigslist killer and I apologize for that. Humor on SDN has a 50/50 chance of being funny. Comedy was never my speciality. My point is one RVU profit school does not represent the whole DO graduating community, and if YOU do not like a particular school YOU should not go. If a school goes through the same accredidations as other schools it deserves the same respect. I do not know the stats and I am not as smart as you to look them up, but the exsistance of RVU is not going to tear down a profession that has been around for many years.
Thank you for saving me time by giving me your condensed answer, before you became speechless. Obviously the fact that a for profit school exsists shows I can not be the only one that agrees with its opening.

It does not kill or harm the profession severly. But it represents the standards and criteria of COCA and thus puts into question whether other DO schools are truly up to the standards of modern medicine. It also acts to drive a wedge between DO schools which allow for profit and MD schools which do not. This while for AOA residencies does little, but for ACGME programs the PD's will be potentially more hesitant at choosing a DO as they are hesitant at choosing foreign MD's with limited accreditation. This is why this potentially a problem and why many DO's hate the COCA.

Sorry if this message is crap, I types it off of a smartphone... 🙁

 

[Brachyury]

I have three issues with RVU.

First, during its initial year, the owner of RVU abruptly fired the dean/board of directors; this made me very, very skeptical of the school http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12455637?source=bb. After firing the entire board, the owner of RVU later appointed himself and his wife to the board of directors: it looks like the founder wants to squeeze as much money as he can out of the school

Second, the issue of COCA sanctioning a for-profit school is part of the larger issue that COCA is doing a disservice to DO’s by having lower standards than LCME. In 2011, DO’s and MD’s are more similar than they have ever been, but COCA’s rubber stamping of schools threatens to widen the gap between allopathic and osteopathic institutions.

Third, medical school tuition not only pays for faculty and facilities, but it can also be used to provide scholarships and fund research. While grants fund most research, start-up funds provided by the university are needed to attract researchers to set-up labs. Let’s be honest: it’s difficult to fund research when the excess revenue generated by the school is going into the pockets of its investors.

 

[DocEspana]

I think the main concern is that it would turn into an ITT, or Globe College, ... I just don't think it will 'ruin' the DO or MD system....

He's totally right. What RVU has against it is 1) the same things any new school has against it and 2) biases based on understanding for-profit medical schools only in the context of caribbean schools or 90+ year old medical schools.

The biases aren't fair because no matter how much we rip on COCA, they aren't *****s. RVU has standards to operate under that make it function very similar to any other school. It simply has more leeway to not invest back in its own institution. But you'd be dumb, from a capitalist point of view, to not invest back in your own institution, especially at the beginning when reputation building is so vital.

 

[livedie]

He's totally right. What RVU has against it is 1) the same things any new school has against it and 2) biases based on understanding for-profit medical schools only in the context of caribbean schools or 90+ year old medical schools.

The biases aren't fair because no matter how much we rip on COCA, they aren't *****s. RVU has standards to operate under that make it function very similar to any other school. It simply has more leeway to not invest back in its own institution. But you'd be dumb, from a capitalist point of view, to not invest back in your own institution, especially at the beginning when reputation building is so vital.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the points that I was trying to make. When dealing with capitalism you can only make money when you invest money. My other point is a for profit and a nonprofit DO school has to go through the same accredidation process. I think it is a bad thing when DO's bash other DO's. It seems to me that some DO's feel like they are the elite and certain other schools are beneath them. I am routing for RVU because I respect anyone one that is going through the process of becoming a physician. I hope RVU board scores and matches make people speechless.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

He's totally right. What RVU has against it is 1) the same things any new school has against it and 2) biases based on understanding for-profit medical schools only in the context of caribbean schools or 90+ year old medical schools.

The biases aren't fair because no matter how much we rip on COCA, they aren't *****s. RVU has standards to operate under that make it function very similar to any other school. It simply has more leeway to not invest back in its own institution. But you'd be dumb, from a capitalist point of view, to not invest back in your own institution, especially at the beginning when reputation building is so vital.

But are there any short term consequences of this all?

 

[DocEspana]

But are there any short term consequences of this all?

you know. I really can't answer that. Beyond self-perpetuated bad word on the street, i honestly can't think of a negative immediate consequence. Doesn't mean it isn't out there. Just means that I'm not astute enough to figure it out right now. Which should say something about the fact that we should be cautious or in heightened awareness but not judgmental right off the bat.

Also, and this isn't directed at you serenade, people need to remember that there was a ton more to the flexner report than just the for profit nature of schools. The flexner report was primarily based on the idea that schools should have a singular basic science based curriculum that they all follow. The elimination of for-profit models was to, at the time, eliminate those who had opted for cheaper educational models to maximize speed of training, number trained, and keep overhead as low as possible.

But if the educational system is standardized, the for-profit status really only impacts a small amount of the total money in the system. Can this relatively small amount be abused? Oh hells to the f*** yes. But there is no sign it is currently happening.

p.s. I hung out with a RVU student all this weekend. So thus why I'm in one of my more understanding and less mocking moods about them. He earned the good press from me.

 

[vandyam]

I was only saying that the comments about how it is a 'new' school are out of line when the other 'new' schools aren't bashed equally. LECOM is an entity unto itself... that school would honestly be one of my last choices, but beggars can't be choosers... I recall seeing 1 WCU post, beyond that, it is RVU that takes the most heat, by far... My problem with all of it is that yes, RVU is for-profit, but LECOM basically is for-profit and somehow maintains a NPO status.... and as you pointed out, there are other schools that offer little to their students, yet their NPO status doesn't matter, they do nothing but it's ok because they're NPO??? That makes no sense, that's why I say, just because a school is for-profit it doesn't mean they will fail and be like a Carib school or other for-profit UG school...

I find it a little ironic that you are mad about people bashing RVU (your #1 choice) when you are repeatedly bashing LECOM (my #1 choice). Don't be hippocritical. And I am curious as to why you are saying LECOM is basically for-profit...they have one of the lowest admissions cost around - LECOM students are often in 100-150k less debt than other DO students (esp after factoring in interest). Educate me on the downfalls if you know some I do not, please.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

If you do a search you will find a thread about for-profit and defacto for-profit schools. I believe it was something about the dean or preSident and his sister each pulling in ~600-800k/yr... Additionally, all I said is LECOM is basically for-profit, where did I 'bash' them? They are low on my list because of their dress-code and other strict requirements in class. I think you read more into my post than what is there...

 

[Brachyury]

If you do a search you will find a thread about for-profit and defacto for-profit schools. I believe it was something about the dean or preSident and his sister each pulling in ~600-800k/yr... Additionally, all I said is LECOM is basically for-profit, where did I 'bash' them? They are low on my list because of their dress-code and other strict requirements in class. I think you read more into my post than what is there...

It helps when you can cite sources.

Even if the president did make 800k, while high, that's not unheard of for a college president, especially one that has opened branch campuses, increased the GPA and MCAT scores of its classes, and kept the cost of tuition very low. If LECOM were a 'for-profit in disguise,' the university would have substantially raised its tuition: med school is a seller's market, so LECOM would have nothing to lose by increasing its tuition.

On a side note, I think LECOM is a crapshack/backwards, but this is a direct result of LECOM's business model: while most med schools have seen COA outpace the rate of real economic growth, LECOM has kept higher education affordable by developing a system that keeps costs low.

 

[Colodostudent]

"Also, and this isn't directed at you serenade, people need to remember that there was a ton more to the flexner report than just the for profit nature of schools. The flexner report was primarily based on the idea that schools should have a singular basic science based curriculum that they all follow. The elimination of for-profit models was to, at the time, eliminate those who had opted for cheaper educational models to maximize speed of training, number trained, and keep overhead as low as possible."
___________________

DocEspana, the Flexner report is over a CENTURY OLD!! I think we all need to understand the world is a very different place than it was in 1910. Flexner's report helped start medical education in the right direction, but were way beyond that.

 

[DocEspana]

"Also, and this isn't directed at you serenade, people need to remember that there was a ton more to the flexner report than just the for profit nature of schools. The flexner report was primarily based on the idea that schools should have a singular basic science based curriculum that they all follow. The elimination of for-profit models was to, at the time, eliminate those who had opted for cheaper educational models to maximize speed of training, number trained, and keep overhead as low as possible."
___________________

DocEspana, the Flexner report is over a CENTURY OLD!! I think we all need to understand the world is a very different place than it was in 1910. Flexner's report helped start medical education in the right direction, but were way beyond that.

yes. that was my point. which is why my next part, which you didnt quote, said exactly that. Abraham Flexner's point has very little to do with proft vs not for profit. It's about standardizing the curriculum to the only recognized successful format. That 100 years ago no for-profit medical school fit that format is not relevant when 100 years later we have 1 that does fit that curriculum. What a "for profit" school is has changed massively in 100 years, since every school must follow the same curriculum now. The finances of how they do it need not be the same. I personally think it should be the same, but it doesn't need to be. The LCME blindly follows every letter of the flexner report (which i totally agree with), but logically: it was never about profit vs not for profit. It was about curriculum. The flexner report argument doesn't apply to RVU at all.

 

[Colodostudent]

yes. that was my point. which is why my next part, which you didnt quote, said exactly that. Abraham Flexner's point has very little to do with proft vs not for profit. It's about standardizing the curriculum to the only recognized successful format. That 100 years ago no for-profit medical school fit that format is not relevant when 100 years later we have 1 that does fit that curriculum. What a "for profit" school is has changed massively in 100 years, since every school must follow the same curriculum now. The finances of how they do it need not be the same. I personally think it should be the same, but it doesn't need to be. The LCME blindly follows every letter of the flexner report (which i totally agree with), but logically: it was never about profit vs not for profit. It was about curriculum. The flexner report argument doesn't apply to RVU at all.

Yes, we agree on this issue. Many people follow Flexner blindly, without having really read his report. People really need to know their resoruces. In many respects, Flexner was highly racist.

The following are Key statements excerpted from "The Medical Education of the Negro - "Chapter 14 of The Flexner Report on Medical Education in the United States and Canada:


* The medical care of the negro race will never be

wholly left to negro physicians.

* The negro ​

​

must be educated not only for his​

​

​

sake, but for ours.​

​

​

* The negro is perhaps more easily 'taken in' than
the white; and as his means of extricating himself​

from ​

​

a blunder are limited, it is all the more cruel to​

​

​

abuse his ignorance through any sort of pretense.​

* Make-believe ​

​

in the matter of negro medical​

schools ​

​

is therefore intolerable.​

* If ​

​

at the same time these men can be imbued​

with the missionary spirit ​

​

so that they will look upon​

​

​

the diploma as a commission to serve their people​

humbly and devotedly, they ​

​

may play an important​

​

​

part in the sanitation and civilization of the whole​

nation.
* Their ​

​

duty calls them away from large cities to​

​

​

the village and the plantation, upon which light has​

hardly ​

​

as yet begun to break.​

​

​

* ​

​

It is greatly to be hoped that the government

​

​

may display a liberal and progressive spirit in​

​

​

adapting the administration of this institution ​

​

to the requirements of medical education.
I would refer you to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2571842/pdf/jnma00292-0091.pdf THE FLEXNER REPORT AND BLACK ACADEMIC MEDICINE:AN ASSIGNMENT OF PLACE by Susan Hunt, EdD.



​

 

[DocEspana]

not sure im following your point, but okay. Is this a "parts invalidate the whole" argument? Or just want to illucidate on the trending thoughts of certain intellectuals in the early 1900's?

 

[Colodostudent]

not sure im following your point, but okay. Is this a "parts invalidate the whole" argument? Or just want to illucidate on the trending thoughts of certain intellectuals in the early 1900's?

No, not parts invalidate the whole, but I present it because many people quote Flexner as being "gospel" on everything, without ever having read the report. Certainly thoughts today are very different than the early 1900's, and reports need to be analyzed in the context they were written.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Yes, we agree on this issue. Many people follow Flexner blindly, without having really read his report. People really need to know their resoruces. In many respects, Flexner was highly racist.

The following are Key statements excerpted from "The Medical Education of the Negro - "Chapter 14 of The Flexner Report on Medical Education in the United States and Canada:

* The medical care of the negro race will never be wholly left to negro physicians.

* The negro must be educated not only for his sake, but for ours.

* The negro is perhaps more easily 'taken in' than the white; and as his means of extricating himself from a blunder are limited, it is all the more cruel to abuse his ignorance through any sort of pretense.

* Make-believe in the matter of negro medical schools is therefore intolerable.

* If at the same time these men can be imbued with the missionary spirit so that they will look upon the diploma as a commission to serve their people humbly and devotedly, they may play an important part in the sanitation and civilization of the whole nation.

* Their duty calls them away from large cities to the village and the plantation, upon which light has hardly as yet begun to break.

* It is greatly to be hoped that the government may display a liberal and progressive spirit in adapting the administration of this institution

I actually look at this completely differently than you did.

First, in saying that the medical care of AA would not be left to AA physicians he was saying that whites would play an integral role, especially in education as only whites were really educated at that time. Furthermore, he was saying that the role in educating AAs to be physicians would allow better care for african americans in that they would be able to care for other AAs. This very closely parallels the idea of increased diversity in medical school admissions in that underrepresented minorities are more likely to go back to their towns and cities and help care for the underrepresented population increasing access to healthcare. Flexnor is calling for the gov't to support institutions that educate minorities, which in the early 1900s is a very, very, very forward thinking idea. I agree, there is some overt racism thrown in there but that has to be expected for the times.

Honestly, this supports the exact opposite of what you are saying it does; taken in the context of the early 1900s, this in effect it shows just how contemporary and forward thinking flexnor really was.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

It helps when you can cite sources.

Even if the president did make 800k, while high, that's not unheard of for a college president, especially one that has opened branch campuses, increased the GPA and MCAT scores of its classes, and kept the cost of tuition very low. If LECOM were a 'for-profit in disguise,' the university would have substantially raised its tuition: med school is a seller's market, so LECOM would have nothing to lose by increasing its tuition.

On a side note, I think LECOM is a crapshack/backwards, but this is a direct result of LECOM's business model: while most med schools have seen COA outpace the rate of real economic growth, LECOM has kept higher education affordable by developing a system that keeps costs low.

Did you not read that I said "you can search for the thread" it's on the SDN forum, and I typed that from my phone, not a great place to be searching for a random thread entitled "for profit schools, and schools that are basically for-profit" or something very similar in the P-O forum... They have the sources, you can find it... As for your comment about for-profit schools costing more, RVU has tuition right in the middle of the pack ~40k/yr... Soooo, not really gouging people... considering UNECOM is like 1mil a year...

 

[Colbare]

What is the purpose of having the tax status of a medical school as for-profit? It seems obvious that putting excess funds back into the school is only to the benefit of RVU and its students. So why would they insist on leaving the option to dump it into the pockets of a few individuals? I would feel absolutely confident I’d become an outstanding and well educated physician at RVU, but I couldn’t stand to know they feel confident enough in their greed to tell me outright as an educational institution that my education may or may not come before their extra Christmas bonus.

I have nothing against the curriculum, facilities, current students, interested pre-meds, or anyone other than the guys at the top of RVU. They are practically saying, "Money we could otherwise use to enrich the academic environment at RVU and benefit society is extremely possibly and very likely going directly into our pockets instead."

I also understand the concept of capitalism/business and greed is at the heart of it all. Isn’t there enough of that in America? I think it's great that people aren't so tolerant of it boldly taking a part in our medical schools which are intended to have the sole purpose of educating rather than generating revenue. I bold intended because I know people are corrupt and manipulative so of course not every medical school lives up to its intended purpose (possibly LECOM? I dunno?). RVU doesn’t even leave us in blissful ignorance. They announce to everyone that they want to be rich individuals who benefit themselves while of course also creating a great school that fills a need and furthers osteopathic philosophy, which thankfully they appear to be doing very well.

I understand many schools find ways around their NP status and their deans and top execs make stupid amounts of money. I wonder what the dean at RVU makes? It could be less than LECOM's dean for all I know. It wouldn't surprise me as corrupt as people are, but at least they were founded with the intention to educate first and fatten wallets (or purses) later.

 

[painmd87]

One of the benefits of RVU's for-profit status is they don't have to deal with this crap about how much they pay their administrators. In general, people aren't randomly assigned a salary and then get to pay themselves whatever they feel like. Normally, you negotiate a contract and if you feel you didn't get paid enough, you negotiated a bad contract. If you are getting paid too much, then the board that approved it negotiated a bad contract. For the most part, people are paid what they're worth above a replacement.

As I've posted before:
Compared to other schools: (data from 2009, for FY 2008, just a sampling)
PCOM paid their president and CEO $583,359.
TOURO-COM paid their founder $435,844 in base compensation and nearly $5 million in deferred compensation, the year before he died.
TOURO-COM paid their president $578,913
VCOM's president earns $317,4136.
Rosalind Franklin's paid its president $758,235
In 2009, KCUMB's president + CEO earned more than both Feretti's COMBINED at $1,264,353.
Yale's president gets paid $1,530,008
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine has 5 people who earn more than $1 million including one who was paid nearly $4.5 million.

The world of academics can be very lucrative for those in positions of power. At my undergrad institution, with all 5,000 students, our president was paid nearly $700,000, with no doctoral degrees available.

If you think this violates their non-profit status, you have a lot to learn about the world of education and the tax system.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

It doesn't violate it, but its not right either...

 

[DocEspana]

It doesn't violate it, but its not right either...

everyone in non-profit situations is paid on a "prevailing cost" mechanism. They can either negotiate a contract where they will be paid whatever the prevailing cost of the top position currently is (sicne they wont convince a board of directors to give them radically more than everyone else is getting) or they can default to the NPO rules which entitle them to a certain percent of their insitutions income. I imagine the Touro people got their incomes that way since a small percent of 23 schools is a massive amount of money. I imagine other schools simply tried to lock down a person and paid them the highest amount out there, which would later allow someone else to ask for a higher amount in the coming years since they wanted more than the last guy.

it escalates. But it also fits the requirements of NPO

 

[Brachyury]

Did you not read that I said "you can search for the thread" it's on the SDN forum, and I typed that from my phone, not a great place to be searching for a random thread entitled "for profit schools, and schools that are basically for-profit" or something very similar in the P-O forum... They have the sources, you can find it... As for your comment about for-profit schools costing more, RVU has tuition right in the middle of the pack ~40k/yr... Soooo, not really gouging people... considering UNECOM is like 1mil a year...[/QUOTE]

I'm amazed at how you were not able to understand the arguments I articulated in my post

 

[tman1820]

...As for your comment about for-profit schools costing more, RVU has tuition right in the middle of the pack ~40k/yr... Soooo, not really gouging people... considering UNECOM is like 1mil a year...

Oh no, I'm headed to UNE and it's gonna cost me a mil a year...really?
🙄

I'm sure I will be ragging on UNE's price once I'm there, but the reality is that UNE's price is on par with a number of DO school's and it looks like it is going to be overtaken by the midwesterns sooner than later as they're tuition increases seem to be outpacing UNE's...

but having debt from RVU would worry me more since the private loans probably have a variable rate or may have a time limit if it is fixed before it balloons or becomes variable, which is fine now since interest rates are kind of low, but if things change, well...sucks to be you

 

[DocEspana]

Oh no, I'm headed to UNE and it's gonna cost me a mil a year...really?
🙄

I'm sure I will be ragging on UNE's price once I'm there, but the reality is that UNE's price is on par with a number of DO school's and it looks like it is going to be overtaken by the midwesterns sooner than later as they're tuition increases seem to be outpacing UNE's...

but having debt from RVU would worry me more since the private loans probably have a variable rate or may have a time limit if it is fixed before it balloons or becomes variable, which is fine now since interest rates are kind of low, but if things change, well...sucks to be you

well, to be fair, its the cost of living that makes UNECOM so expensive. The tuition is just somewhat above the average.

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

I have heard from a creditable source that RVU's full accreditation is not going to take place by 2012 when the innuagral class is scheduled to graduate but will most likely take place in 2013.]

OH, I see, so now comes "AOA Insider" with his first/one post, quoting some unnamed but supposedly credible person, stating some BS about difficulty in accreditation that will take another year. So, are you a student who didn't get accepted here? Maybe a faculty member who didn't get hired, or one who got fired? Maybe you flunked out - Mr. supposed AOA insider?

So, I was personally at the exit conference (all students and faculty were invited to attend), when COCA did their last inspection. RVUCOM got many commendations, and at the end, the team captain commented on how well the school was doing, and how they looked forward to the final visit next year before graduation and the awarding of full accreditation, pending that successful visit.

I was also at the last Deans meeting, where he presented the AOA/COCA report that was quite complimentary, and mentioned that our final COCA visit prior to full accreditation will be next Februray.

Doc Espana: Since your all over this site, and are a frequent purveyour of "AOA information and expertise", you should know that you are not elliglbile for full accreditation until the inaugural class' graduation year, when an on-site visit is conducted by COCA evaluators to determine whether you can be granted full accreditation status, thats why your school Tourro-Harlem, just got accredited. RVU is just beginning it's fourth year and it's innaugural class is scheduled to graduate next May, that's why it couldn't possibly have anything beyond provisional accreditation yet! It will be elligilbe for the full accreditation status (just like your place was), next spring!

Sooo, here it goes again, As a student here, I'm really sick and tired with people on this site, passing BS information that is erroneous, and not backed up, slamming my medical school, and thus my reputation.

Mr. AOA insider, put up your sources!! If you can't, then stop spreading lies and innuendo! (Oh, I'm sure you'll say it was some big deal who "must remain anonymous", or you won't say anything at all.)

I have been to RVU to take the tour a few months ago, I don't think I saw one student there that looked worried... That's worrying. I keep hearing about how medical school is a serious stress fest.

Don't kill the messenger. You are completely off as to my identity. I am in no way associated with the school or ever have been.

There are also some subtle change's to RVU's website due to this development. Note the financial aid part of the site:
http://www.rockyvistauniversity.org/financial_aid.asp
Any wording stating that title IV aid will be available in 2012 after the first class has graduated has been removed.

When talking with admissions, I heard something about that - they told me that getting the ability to disburse federal aid (Stafford Loans, PLUS loans, National Health Service Corps Scholarships, Military Medical Corps HSPS, etc) was an entirely separate process that they will go through once accredited. So, I thought it was automatic as well, but it turns out that I was wrong too.

Oh, so I see, Mr. AOA insider. So you've gone from "credible informants" that you won't/can't name, to now "secret messages" from subtle changes on a web posting. I read the statement your quoted , it says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about accreditation, or lack of abiliity to get it. Nothing at all. It is just talking about financial aid. (Hey, mayber your a conspiracy theorist?) So again, more BS.

I just talked to the financial aid dept here at the school. The director told me that because they can't guarantee when the exact date of availabliity of title IV funding will come (paper work, applications, etc.), they removed the date. It has NOTHING to do with COCA accreditation. Again, all indications are that RVU is on track for full accreditation, but then, I guess you would of know that had you done some real research on this by either contacting the school or the financial aid office, rather than just shooting off your mouth (or in this case, your keyboard).

Again, who are your sources, Mr. AOA insider? Or are you going to look for more "subtle changes" to send you secret messages?

Yeah, that makes total sense - as COCA accreditation is an AOA process and being able to disburse Title IV is a Dept. of Ed process. Knowing anything about the bureaucracy, it's lunacy to think that you can predict an accurate turnaround time for anything that involves the government. This stuff takes time, though how much time is anyone's guess.


Mr. AOA Insider sounds like a fear monger trying to spread more animosity against RVU (I know that I've seen quite a bit of it here). But the fact that he can't prove to any concrete evidence makes me question the credibility of his statements. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens, fortunately I have time to wait (hoping to matriculate into a DO school in 2015) and so far, I can only see two potentially negative things about RVU:

• It's for-profit (so what?)
• It's about a 30 minute walk from any public transit (I live in Denver and have done this walk to RVU).

Still, I think that RVU looks like a promising school and it tentatively has a high position on my DO school "wish list". Once it gets full COCA accreditation and Title IV financial aid approval, that position will no longer be tentative (I have an ID theft issue and even if I clean it up, private loans won't be an option. PLUS loans are, though). ^_^

 

[tman1820]

well, to be fair, its the cost of living that makes UNECOM so expensive. The tuition is just somewhat above the average.

Being from New England, Maine is definitely on the low end of the scale when it comes to cost of living...a decent apartment can be had for under $700 a month, which is a really good deal compared to the majority of the northeast...

 

[OnTheOtherHand]

Being from New England, Maine is definitely on the low end of the scale when it comes to cost of living...a decent apartment can be had for under $700 a month, which is a really good deal compared to the majority of the northeast...

And that puts TouroCOM, NYCOM and a few of the New England schools on the lower end of my list, along with Western U and Touro California - due to the higher cost of living.

But it'll ultimately come down to who lets me in. ;-P

 

[Everglide]

Being from New England, Maine is definitely on the low end of the scale when it comes to cost of living...a decent apartment can be had for under $700 a month, which is a really good deal compared to the majority of the northeast...

Well UNE produces students with the most debt of any medical school in the country. The numbers don't lie.

Also I find it hard to believe RVU is somehow coming short of the ridiculously low accreditation standards... If this is true then there must be something very wrong going on.

 

[JaggerPlate]

If you do a search you will find a thread about for-profit and defacto for-profit schools.

All ethical debates and personal opinions aside ... tax status is a cut and dry situation in this case: LECOM has applied for and received not-for-profit tax status and RVU has CHOSEN to file as a for-profit institution and is taxed as such. We can argue for hours about big salaries, quick expansions, "degree mills," etc, but the facts aren't really debatable - for-profit versus not-for-profit.