RVU vs. KCUMB

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chris89

chris89

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Hello all,
Having a really difficult time making a decision between these two schools and hoping someone will be able to add some pros or cons I may be leaving out.
Both schools have a modified systems-based curriculum set up by the same dean. Both have strong board scores and match lists. I believe I've heard that both schools have pretty strong rotations. KCUMB has a very established reputation while RVU has done great but still is relatively new. RVU seems to be known for the close knit community environment which I definitely experienced on interview day. The location factor goes to RVU without a doubt.
I know I will receive a great education at either school. At the end of the day my main concern is landing a solid residency. Will KCUMB's established reputation make a huge difference when applying?
 
KCUMB's established reputation definitely isn't going to hurt when applying for a residency. If you look at it this way, they have had many years to make good connections and definitely have an expansive alumni network whereas RVU does not have the huge alumni base and has not had as long to build as many connections with clinical sites and residency programs. There is also the nagging issue of the "for-profit" status of RVU, while that doesn't matter at all to me, there have been discussions on SDN about certain PD's who state they will not take RVU students for that reason. While I can't speak to the veracity of those claims as I have only seen them on this site, it would be something to keep in the back of your mind as being possible. At the end of the day, while RVU wins the location prize by far, I personally would choose KCUMB.
 
OP, I had to make this same exact decision. First off, congratulations; this is a good predicament to be in!

Anyway, I ultimately chose RVU for a few different reason. Location was a big factor as my fiancé and I both went to undergrad in Colorado. You can't beat Denver!

The smaller class size at RVU was another big factor. The tight knit community was very evident on interview day. On a similar note, you could really tell the faculty was easily accessible and extremely invested in their students success.

Lastly, The extremely high board scores at RVU was a big factor and testament to the excellence of the schools curriculum and faculty. As you know, KCUMB is implementing the same curriculum so I am sure you will see similar success there in the next few years.

At the end of the day, both schools will provide you with a great education and allow you to get into your desired field (granted you put in the work and effort). Can't go wrong with either school!
 
chris89 said:
Hello all,
Having a really difficult time making a decision between these two schools and hoping someone will be able to add some pros or cons I may be leaving out.
Both schools have a modified systems-based curriculum set up by the same dean. Both have strong board scores and match lists. I believe I've heard that both schools have pretty strong rotations. KCUMB has a very established reputation while RVU has done great but still is relatively new. RVU seems to be known for the close knit community environment which I definitely experienced on interview day. The location factor goes to RVU without a doubt.
I know I will receive a great education at either school. At the end of the day my main concern is landing a solid residency. Will KCUMB's established reputation make a huge difference when applying?
Click to expand...

KCUMB is better school but I think if you want to be in Denver go with RVU! If I was choosing between the two I would go with rvu for Colorado. I am actually in a similar situation as you. Congrats!
 
If you want to stay in Colorado, go to RVU. Otherwise I'd say KCUMB.
 
chris89 said:
Hello all,
Having a really difficult time making a decision between these two schools and hoping someone will be able to add some pros or cons I may be leaving out.
Both schools have a modified systems-based curriculum set up by the same dean. Both have strong board scores and match lists. I believe I've heard that both schools have pretty strong rotations. KCUMB has a very established reputation while RVU has done great but still is relatively new. RVU seems to be known for the close knit community environment which I definitely experienced on interview day. The location factor goes to RVU without a doubt.
I know I will receive a great education at either school. At the end of the day my main concern is landing a solid residency. Will KCUMB's established reputation make a huge difference when applying?
Click to expand...

KCUMB has a good reputation with Kansas University Medical Center (ACGME), University of Missouri KC Hospitals (ACGME) and a strong OPTI (AOA) http://www.kcumb.edu/academics/college-of-osteopathic-medicine/GME/members/participating/

I don't think going to KCUMB (or any DO school for that matter outside of TCOM) will make a significant difference when applying because the other factors (board scores, honoring preclinical and clinical, research) take such a larger precedence when applying to residency.
 
I won't dispute KCUMB's reputation. However, I know faculty at both. I would pick RVU. Having worked with both, I'd pick RVU's current dean and directors of 1st and 2nd year over the people at KCUMB. The people at RVU are just phenomenal people. They really truly care about the students.
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
I won't dispute KCUMB's reputation. However, I know faculty at both. I would pick RVU. Having worked with both, I'd pick RVU's current dean and directors of 1st and 2nd year over the people at KCUMB. The people at RVU are just phenomenal people. They really truly care about the students.
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How is RVUs current dean btw? Has a lot changed?
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
I won't dispute KCUMB's reputation. However, I know faculty at both. I would pick RVU. Having worked with both, I'd pick RVU's current dean and directors of 1st and 2nd year over the people at KCUMB. The people at RVU are just phenomenal people. They really truly care about the students.
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Shots fired.

Btw, thanks for sending Dr. Kruse and Dr. McCormick to us!
 
Dr. Hopeful said:
BBQ. It's always the BBQ.
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I haven't tried the BBQ yet 🙁 I'm just hoping there's some taco shop nearby.

To stay on topic: OP I believe both schools are great and solid schools. Choose whatever's cheaper or whatever location you'll like more orrr see how much time they spend on OMT and pick from there.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Shots fired.

Btw, thanks for sending Dr. Kruse and Dr. McCormick to us!
Click to expand...

Putthoff was RVU's loss and KCUMB's gain (lots of people didn't like Putthoff but I think he really added something valuable to the teaching staff). But nobody misses Kruse or McCormick. You can keep them.


OP, you should go wherever you think you'll be happiest. If you pick a place you're unhappy with because you think it'll gain you a significant advantage in the match, you'll be really unhappy at the match. But really, you should be happy here or KCUMB, now that they seem to have ditched their mandatory attendance.
 
acapnial said:
Putthoff was RVU's loss and KCUMB's gain (lots of people didn't like Putthoff but I think he really added something valuable to the teaching staff). But nobody misses Kruse or McCormick. You can keep them.


OP, you should go wherever you think you'll be happiest. If you pick a place you're unhappy with because you think it'll gain you a significant advantage in the match, you'll be really unhappy at the match. But really, you should be happy here or KCUMB, now that they seem to have ditched their mandatory attendance.
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girl-waving-hairbrush.gif
 
acapnial said:
Putthoff was RVU's loss and KCUMB's gain (lots of people didn't like Putthoff but I think he really added something valuable to the teaching staff). But nobody misses Kruse or McCormick. You can keep them.

But really, you should be happy here or KCUMB, now that they seem to have ditched their mandatory attendance.
Click to expand...

Why doesn't anyone at RVU miss them? Are they mean?
 
AlteredScale said:
KCUMB -where all the good teachers go. LOL.

On a serious note, I wonder what has brought the faculty here. Research opportunities? Better pay? Both? BBQ?
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And MUCOM heh... that school burnt all sorts of bridges when they "stole" professors from other schools.

But the way I see it... You cant build a team just because you have star players.
 
Awesome Sauceome said:
And MUCOM heh... that school burnt all sorts of bridges when they "stole" professors from other schools.

But the way I see it... You cant build a team just because you have star players.
Click to expand...

I mean it's all apart of the faculty game. They'll stay loyal if they really like the school 😉
 
chris89 said:
What specifically makes the decision such a no-brainer for you?
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RVU has graduated only 3 classes of students (~450 students). To put it in perspective, KCUMB has graduated 94 classes. RVU might be a perfectly fine school, but in terms of record, connections, alumni base, OPTI, and more, KCUMB is a stronger school. KCUMB is also a bit cheaper, not much only $5k/yr, but still.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Shots fired.

Btw, thanks for sending Dr. Kruse and Dr. McCormick to us!
Click to expand...


As for the new dean, the curriculum is staying the same, the only exception being tweaks on the clinical medicine curriculum, which gets better every year. The new dean actually allows RVU to have meaningful discussions with UC-Denver.

The new 'phase directors' (as they are called at RVU for 1st and 2nd year) are Funk and Michels. They are imho the best profs the school has (including all of the previous profs) and they actually give a rats ass about the students. As in I thought I was going to fail Renal 2, (I didn't) Dr. Michels (before she was 2nd year director) took 90 minutes of her time to talk to me, show me additional resources, and restore my confidence that I could do this.

You can think whatever you want, but you don't actually know any of these people as well as I do. Faculty at RVU wins HANDS DOWN.
 
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Prncssbuttercup said:
I tried not to be specific about this but actually, they are the exact reasons I would pick RVU over KCUMB. "Where all the good profs go"... ummm sorry I disagree. As for putthoff... yeah... well... you keep him, we were all praying he'd retire and spare us the misery. Kruse dismisses students by email, he doesn't have the gumption to actually call them into his office and tell them in person. Among MANY other things I could say about the three of them... I will say I personally got along with all three of them, but their actions IMHO were atrocious.

As for the new dean, the curriculum is staying the same, the only exception being tweaks on the clinical medicine curriculum, which gets better every year. The new dean actually allows RVU to have meaningful discussions with UC-Denver where Dubin would go over to UCD and insult their dean and then leave us in the lurch. I have had SEVERAL physicians on my rotations comment about his attitude and how much it hurt our school. Told is far more diplomatic and will be an asset.

The new 'phase directors' (as they are called at RVU for 1st and 2nd year) are Funk and Michels. They are imho the best profs the school has (including all of the previous profs) and they actually give a rats ass about the students. As in I thought I was going to fail Renal 2, (I didn't) Dr. Michels (before she was 2nd year director) took 90 minutes of her time to talk to me, show me additional resources, and restore my confidence that I could do this. Do not for one second think you will get that out of the faculty you have. As for 'loyal' HA. Dubin offered Kruse and McCormick WAAAY more money to get them to leave. They were already decently paid, but he gave them a significant bump because that was what it would take to get them to go. Don't think this has anything to do with loyalty, it has to do with the almighty dollar.

You can think whatever you want, but you don't actually know any of these people as well as I do. Faculty at RVU wins HANDS DOWN.

Putthoff... not a gain for KCUMB... unless you like really pompous professors who are never wrong even when 15 different, reliable sources say he is. Dr. Garrison was a loss for RVU (he retired). He was ACTUALLY good. Harvard med, Mayo path residency... THAT was a loss...
Click to expand...


Whoah well that got heated fairly quickly. My bad. But thanks for the review of the professors, my mistake for assuming they came over to do KCU a service and not just hop on over because of the money. I'll be on the look at for those types of actions come August. Perhaps some of the first years can reaffirm what you've described here.
 
I'm not angry, I just think if you guys want to really know specifics, that's some of them. The school is going to make their faculty seem like the best faculty. Students might give you an actual valuable appraisal of their worth. Some people loved Kruse, it was mainly guys, who he worked out with and went to the bar with. TOTALLY unprofessional for a professor who controls grades to be hanging out with students.
 
Thanks for the feedback! I really wanted to hear the good and the bad from both sides (obviously not everyone will agree). I think the fact that you are all so willing to defend your respective schools is a testament to how strong both programs are. I'm still doing some research before I make my decision (deposits are due on the 13th) but at least I know I'll be in a great position wherever I go!
 
chris89 said:
Hello all,
Having a really difficult time making a decision between these two schools and hoping someone will be able to add some pros or cons I may be leaving out.
Both schools have a modified systems-based curriculum set up by the same dean. Both have strong board scores and match lists. I believe I've heard that both schools have pretty strong rotations. KCUMB has a very established reputation while RVU has done great but still is relatively new. RVU seems to be known for the close knit community environment which I definitely experienced on interview day. The location factor goes to RVU without a doubt.
I know I will receive a great education at either school. At the end of the day my main concern is landing a solid residency. Will KCUMB's established reputation make a huge difference when applying?
Click to expand...

RVU has a nice location but the fact that it is a for profit school detracts from it, KCUMB is very well established, but Kansas City is not the most charming locale. Still great DO program.
 
Seth Joo said:
RVU has a nice location but the fact that it is a for profit school detracts from it, KCUMB is very well established, but Kansas City is not the most charming locale. Still great DO program.
Click to expand...
Do you know of any specific examples were the for profit status has negatively affected a student? I've heard rumors on SDN but never any real situations and no complaints from actual RVU students
 
chris89 said:
Do you know of any specific examples were the for profit status has negatively affected a student? I've heard rumors on SDN but never any real situations and no complaints from actual RVU students
Click to expand...

http://www.jaoa.osteopathic.org/content/108/8/366.full

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/public-statements/2014-05-27_USDE.pdf?sfvrsn=6

http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Fulltext/2009/01000/A_For_Profit_Medical_School.4.aspx

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/rocky-vista-2013-aoa-match.985728/

The for profit model doesn't directly affect students honestly but it just puts bad rep towards the school and even the aoa. Lcme has stated that all their medical schools be non-profit.
 
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I have never seen a problem. I have never had a physician say anything other than 'it's unfortunate' but it never seems to be an actual problem. I think the biggest problem/issue RVU has is that it doesn't have an associated hospital. If it did, that would be awesome.
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
I have never seen a problem. I have never had a physician say anything other than 'it's unfortunate' but it never seems to be an actual problem. I think the biggest problem/issue RVU has is that it doesn't have an associated hospital. If it did, that would be awesome.
Click to expand...

I echo that. If I could change the school however I wanted, my #1 change would be to get a hospital attached and #2 would be get a gym.

AlteredScale said:
http://www.jaoa.osteopathic.org/content/108/8/366.full

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/public-statements/2014-05-27_USDE.pdf?sfvrsn=6

http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Fulltext/2009/01000/A_For_Profit_Medical_School.4.aspx

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/rocky-vista-2013-aoa-match.985728/

The for profit model doesn't directly affect students honestly but it just puts bad rep towards the school and even the aoa. Lcme has stated that all their medical schools be non-profit.
Click to expand...

George Mychaskiw has probably softened his stance on for profit medical education now that he's the dean of a for profit school. The LCME did used to have a standard that said the lcme schools should not be for profit, but that was deleted in the last couple years. So now for profit MD schools are allowed. Whether we'll see one any time soon remains to be seen...

chris89 said:
Do you know of any specific examples were the for profit status has negatively affected a student? I've heard rumors on SDN but never any real situations and no complaints from actual RVU students
Click to expand...


I've never heard any specific situations of it hurting us, and I've never heard any upperclassmen say they've perceived any difficulty matching because of the for profit status. A couple years ago, when I was applying, somebody on SDN vaguely claimed they knew a couple PD's who threw RVU applications in the trash, but I think that was made up. But if anyone can scrounge up specific instances of the for profit status hurting us I too would like to know! It would be nice to not have to waste my time with those programs.
 
acapnial said:
I echo that. If I could change the school however I wanted, my #1 change would be to get a hospital attached and #2 would be get a gym..
Click to expand...
1. Ah I wish we had that too.
2. We have that!! 😉

Yeah i just gave those sources but I don't much of an opinion. It shows they are doing things right with their recent match list.
 
acapnial said:
I echo that. If I could change the school however I wanted, my #1 change would be to get a hospital attached and #2 would be get a gym.



George Mychaskiw has probably softened his stance on for profit medical education now that he's the dean of a for profit school. The LCME did used to have a standard that said the lcme schools should not be for profit, but that was deleted in the last couple years. So now for profit MD schools are allowed. Whether we'll see one any time soon remains to be seen...




I've never heard any specific situations of it hurting us, and I've never heard any upperclassmen say they've perceived any difficulty matching because of the for profit status. A couple years ago, when I was applying, somebody on SDN vaguely claimed they knew a couple PD's who threw RVU applications in the trash, but I think that was made up. But if anyone can scrounge up specific instances of the for profit status hurting us I too would like to know! It would be nice to not have to waste my time with those programs.
Click to expand...
ahh, good old Dr. Mychaskiw (DO Anes). Back in September 2010 he said this of your school:

"The students at RVU are collaborators in a reprehensible scheme to exploit my profession for a few pieces of silver. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas."

Then in 2014: Appointed dean of new for-profit DO school in New Mexico.
 
user3 said:
ahh, good old Dr. Mychaskiw (DO Anes). Back in September 2010 he said this of your school:

"The students at RVU are collaborators in a reprehensible scheme to exploit my profession for a few pieces of silver. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas."

Then in 2014: Appointed dean of new for-profit DO school in New Mexico.
Click to expand...


He sure is a funny guy
 
AlteredScale said:
Whoah well that got heated fairly quickly. My bad. But thanks for the review of the professors, my mistake for assuming they came over to do KCU a service and not just hop on over because of the money. I'll be on the look at for those types of actions come August. Perhaps some of the first years can reaffirm what you've described here.
Click to expand...

Everyone in the first year class so far thinks that kruse is awesome, don't worry about it too much. I think his clinical application sessions are some of the best lectures I've ever been to, and he taught a lot of us how to approach med school questions
 
midweststudent1 said:
Everyone in the first year class so far thinks that kruse is awesome, don't worry about it too much. I think his clinical application sessions are some of the best lectures I've ever been to, and he taught a lot of us how to approach med school questions
Click to expand...

+1 Dr. Kruze is pretty good.

Dr. McCormick isn't perfect but I learned a TON in Renal. Imagine if she had taught Cardiopulm!
 
chris89 said:
Do you know of any specific examples were the for profit status has negatively affected a student? I've heard rumors on SDN but never any real situations and no complaints from actual RVU students
Click to expand...

The for profit model just not set a good precedent, there are dozens of examples of how for profit education sets things back. That being said even non profits still do things that are unethical as well. I went to an elite top 3 Ivy League institution and its run like a corporate money machine these days but that being said it still has extremely high academic standards.

There have been numerous attempts at a for profit MD school in the US, and all of them have failed.

KCUMB is nearly 100 years old, it is very well established as a medical school, RVU is new and for profit.
 
Seth Joo said:
The for profit model just not set a good precedent, there are dozens of examples of how for profit education sets things back. That being said even non profits still do things that are unethical as well. I went to an elite top 3 Ivy League institution and its run like a corporate money machine these days but that being said it still has extremely high academic standards.

There have been numerous attempts at a for profit MD school in the US, and all of them have failed.

KCUMB is nearly 100 years old, it is very well established as a medical school, RVU is new and for profit.
Click to expand...
That totally avoided the question. While for profit vs non profit can certainly be argued on a systemic basis, the question was on a pragmatic basis for current and possible future students.

To answer that, I'd have to say I have definitely been affected by RVU's for profit status, but only positively! Because there is only a CFO and a board to answer to when procuring funds for improvements to the school, I have seen changes made to facilities extremely quickly. 2 or 3 years ago, some students put in a request to have more group study rooms added on to the school because the current ones were getting crowded. They left for Winter break, and when they returned, there were 10 new rooms outfitted with whiteboard walls and a flat screen tv on a cart for each if needed. Now think about that compared to the established non profits with their facilities becoming quickly dilapidated.

I tell this (very long) story to illustrate how silly the argument is against for profit medical education on a practical, student centered level.

That being said, while I love RVU and the denver area, I can't make the decision for you. Go where you feel like you fit. You'll be spending more time with these classmates than anyone else in your life for the next few years, and being happy makes more of a difference that many people on here would like to admit. Good luck and congratulations!
 
As for the 'for profit' status of RVU and it's implications on residency, I have a feeling more residency applications from RVU would be screened out on the basis that it's a DO school, than on the basis it's a 'for profit' school.

On the topic of facilities, KCUMB has top notch, brand new facilities as well. Furthermore, you're only on campus for 2 years, I think clinical rotations are more important than some flat screen TV's on the wall in a study room. Sure, it's nice to be in sparkly new surroundings, but as we've seen with PCOM-GA or Touro-NV, you can learn learn basic science in a warehouse...
 
KC and it's not even close. One of the most established DO schools in the country vs. a new school that has the displeasure of currently being the only for profit school in the country. I wouldn't want my name tied to that.
 
meliora27 said:
As for the 'for profit' status of RVU and it's implications on residency, I have a feeling more residency applications from RVU would be screened out on the basis that it's a DO school, than on the basis it's a 'for profit' school.

On the topic of facilities, KCUMB has top notch, brand new facilities as well. Furthermore, you're only on campus for 2 years, I think clinical rotations are more important than some flat screen TV's on the wall in a study room. Sure, it's nice to be in sparkly new surroundings, but as we've seen with PCOM-GA or Touro-NV, you can learn learn basic science in a warehouse...
Click to expand...
I didn't make that point to compare to KCUMB, but to illustrate a point about the school's flexibility.

*whoosh*
 
Phone multi post.
 
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Phone multi post
 
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