SABA vs AUC

[hopedoc]

A friend of mine was just accepted to both AUC and SABA. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether there is much of a difference or not? There doesn't seem to be as many people that talk about SABA, is that because it's such a small school?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Andre]

HopeDoc:
Please post your friend's E-mail.
Good luck to him.

 

[Rockndoc]

Hopedoc,
Saba only accepts 45 students per semester, so there are going to be less Saba students/grads posting. The government on Saba will not allow them to take more than 45 per semester which is why they are diverting most of their applications to the other school they own (I forget the name.) The way I understand it, they pick the top 45 applicants to attend Saba and divert the others.
Saba and AUC are both good schools and your friend won't go wrong with either one. The best thing to do is to call the schools and ask them for students/graduates phone numbers. Saba provides these and I would bet AUC does too. When you call the students, call as many as possible and ask as many questions as possible. This seems like your best plan of attack as you are only going to find the same bunch of people here in the discussion forum.
Also, if your friend could afford to visit both schools before choosing, that would really be optimal.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-15-2000).]

 

[Taylor DO]

I think the advice just posted by Rockndoc is the among the best I have read on this forum.

Hopedoc, I think your friend at the very least should contact graduates or students in the programs he/she is interested in. Making an educated decision before going to a caribbean program is an absolute must for any potential applicant.

If your friend can afford it, VISIT those programs.

There are some people on these forums that will advocate a single program while taking shots at other programs in the caribbean. If you are new to this forum, I can tell you recruiters will often attempt to email you with "inside" information on a program. Some may even use the guise of a "wife" being in a particular program. Pay attention, look between the lines, and have your friend call every school.

Ask yourself this, what motivation does anyone have in pushing a single program so strongly? Why trash other programs?

I do not think your friend can go wrong attending either AUC, Saba, SGU, Ross, or MUA. The bottom line is, his or her residency appointment will hinge on their academic performance (BOARD SCORES!!!)

When a student is considering attending an off-shore medical school program, they should be confident, and secure in their decision. That comes from making a well-researched, educated decision.

Best of luck to your friend.



[This message has been edited by Taylor DO (edited 05-16-2000).]

 

[Andre]

HopeDoc:
My first choice is St George's, if you have GPA 3.2 and MCAT 26+ range.
Close second is AUC which has the nicest island and the best facilities.
My own wife just finished 5th semester at AUC.
You are welcome to call & talk to her.
SABA is your last resort in the Caribbean.
ROSS is extreme hardship/too many dropouts.
MUA too new.
Taylor DO is an absolute jerk (look at his lies about me) plus a recruiter for that unknown new school IUHS. You should have seen his BS on IUHS at another forum.
He claims to be a DO student.. then what the hell is he doing at this forum?
Good luck..
[email protected]

 

[Taylor DO]

Hopedoc

Pay no attention to Andre.

Andre is NOT a medical student, he is NOT a physician, at the very best he has info which is THIRD PARTY INFORMATION. As a recruiter he has convinced himself he knows something about medical education.

I am not asking you to listen to me, but do pay attention to what "Rockndoc" wrote, his words are accurate.

To get a better understanding of how confused Andre is, do me a favor. Look in another folder, specifically, "WHICH FOREIGN SCHOOL". In that folder, Andre tells readers...."AUC IS THE FIRST CHOICE", now in this folder, he has changed to "ST GEORGE's is the first choice". If you are going to listen to anyone, don't you think you would want someone who has some consistency and knowledge about what they are talking about?

Andre has emailed at least three readers in these forums trashing me, and truth be told, he does not have a single clue about anything related to medical education.

As for me, I am not a "DO Student", second of all I am not a "recruiter" for IUHS.

I supported the new program in IUHS, and Andre has felt compelled to email people trashing my reputation.

I will be starting a folder with Andre's correspondence soon, it will be a good read for all. Thank you for all who have sent me Andre tales, some have been very entertaining.

Back to my credentials.....I AM A LICENSED PRACTICING OSTEOPATHIC PHYSICIAN. I have a strong interest in foreign medical education. I am an assistant director of an allopathic internal medicine training program in Pennsylvania.

Our program attracts alot of IMG's and I can tell you without any hesitation, all the schools that I have mentioned offer you the resources to succeed. It will be your work ethic that determines how successful you are, not which caribbean school you chose.

If you care to talk or email me feel free to do so, I would be more than happy to have some of our current resident staff answer some questions, can Andre offer that?

Best of luck


Taylor

 

[Taylor DO]

Andre,

As for you, I am at a loss. You are either, learning disabled, or plain stupid.

I challenge you to R-E-A-D, the IUHS folder much slower this time. I have never claimed to be a "DO student", and I have explained my interest in these forums more than once.

As for you, what would you possibly know about the education at Saba? or MUA for that matter? Do you know what clinical opportunities exist for those students? What can you tell us of Saba's latest residency appointments?

What do you know about the selection process for IMG's into residency programs? Please share with us.

You challenge my "right" to read these forums, but that just begs an even stronger question, why are you here?

You are not a medical student, nor are you a physician.

Have you convinced yourself that your "wife's" experience at AUC has made you an expert on foreign medical education?

You giving advice on foreign medical schools draws the analogy of having a donut maker represent someone as legal counsel. Both are equally ridiculous.

 

[hopedoc]

Taylor DO,

I would like to email or talk to you or your collegues about this. I am very interested as I will most likely be considering Caribbean schools in the next year or so. I just want to make sure I'm making the right decision. I would like to weigh the pros and cons before I go rushing offshore! Thanks so much for your very helpful posts.

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Gentleman,

Please try and keep to a professional tone.

Thank you.

 

[Rockndoc]

Hopedoc,

I dont mean to get in the middle of an argument here, but Dr. Taylor is right.
While at first I thought Andre was simply speaking from an uninformed position, the redundant vigor in which he promotes "his wife's school" has made it abundantly clear that he has an "agenda" of some sort. I would beware of people like that. (there are a lot of them out there)

Which leads me to another piece of advice. When you talk to students, make sure they tell you the good AND the bad. There is no Utopian med. school in the carribean. If someone tells you their school is all "wine and roses," I would drink that wine with a grain of salt. I'm sure you know when you are getting the "real dirt" as opposed to a sales pitch.

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-16-2000).]

 

[Andre]

RocknDoc:
My "uninformed" position?? My secret "agenda" ??
I say you are making a lot of assumptions, talking about someone you don't know; and you have a big mouth..
I sent my wife to AUC, 2-years ago, after personally visiting every single island.
I lived 2-years all alone, and I read every single book available on IMG issues. Every single day I am on internet 3-5 hours, visiting every Medical site & forum there is.
I spent several months on St Maarten and SABA, vacationing and talking to students.
If I have spent half this time studying, I would have another Master's degree (now I have 2: MSME and MBA)
I feel that I am one of the most qualified to give advice on IMG issues. As you notice, I am only responding to such applicants.
I will repeat for the final time:
St George's and AUC are the only 2 that I recommend equally. For a single girl or a family, AUC is slightly better (safer); as I know that crime & drugs are bigger in Grenada. For a single man, who has MCAT 26+, the best choice is St George's.
ROSS is only recommended for real Commando's.
SABA is the last resort, if you can NOT enter the first two.
Also, I am fully aware of the SCAM schools popping up daily.. and the DAMAGE these scams are making to the REPUTATION of a good, hard working IMG. Hence, I am free to flaunt my criticism of these new schools.
Anybody who advertises these new schools have an agenda..
Good luck to you all
Andre

 

[Taylor DO]

Andre,

Question for you, and I do not expect an answer, as you seem to dodge the issues when someone pins you down.

What do you think AUC offers that Saba does not? I would really appreciate an answer to that question.

If the ultimate goal is a spot in a US training program, then Saba is outperforming AUC. In a CGME report, Saba's graduates were only rivaled by SGU.

Lastly, my most important question. When a faculty committee is examining an application from an IMG, do you think that a selection committee sees a difference between AUC and Saba? Do you think there is a seperate pile just for the AUC and SGU students?

I take exception to you telling students that AUC and SGU are the only choices for students. No matter how many vacations you take to the caribbean, the fact remains, you have no idea how faculty in an academic training program evaluates IMG applicants. There are MANY talented students who have a strong work ethic, and are disciplined enough to navigate their way to a high USMLE score, and they attend schools other than your BIG TWO. The SINGLE most important criteria for any student relegated to an off-shore program is their board score.

Saba students have proven they can match their results with any caribbean program. That is a fact.

 

[jdm]

I have to throw in my 2cents here... My experience of Andre on this post and a brief email exchange is that he is an agressive, vituperative person who attacks anyone who he feels disagrees w/ him. He spends 3-5 hours a day researching foreign med schools and has read every book on the subject etc etc and the SUM TOTAL of what he shares on this board could be written on a ricegrain - ie, gotoAUC/gotoAUC/maybeSGU/gotoAUC/gotoAUC/maybeSGU ad nauseam.

TaylorDO I'd also like to take you up on your offer. Could you email me? Thanks.

Moderator: it's a difficult question in an internet forum - maintaining decorum. I've been reading through this site the last 6 months or so and just started posting. TaylorDO intelligently, thoughtfully and persistently suggests people check things out for themselves and all things, while not probably, are possible. Andre on the other hand insults and slanders TaylorDO and others ... I wonder what your thoughts are on this...

 

[Want2bedoc]

I have been reading these boards for quite some time, and I have seen one constant with Andre, he attacks anyone who chooses to attend a program other than AUC.

That tells me something.

On the other hand, Dr. Taylor has been very helpful. He responded to an email from me, and he has never once suggested one program over another. He tells me to be comfortable with my decision, and get as much information as possible.

I have been more aggressive than most in my gathering of information. I called residency programs for those areas I had an interest in. Low and behold, the advice Dr. Taylor is giving is the party line. Every director I spoke with told me that my USMLE will be paramount in my application process. They explained (more than once) that the USMLE is the only way they can judge my education against US students.

We all have read books, we all read these forums, however, that does not make us an expert in IMG education.

Just using common sense, I think we all owe it to ourselves to gather as much information as possible before we make a decision.

We should support one another in this quest we have chosen, I hope you all succeed.

James Thomaslin

 

[Stephen Ewen]

Originally posted by jdm:
Moderator: it's a difficult question in an internet forum - maintaining decorum.... I wonder what your thoughts are on this...

I really do think that a professional decor may be maintained in discussions, even when there is disagreement, even profound disagreement, between parties involved. When such a professional decor is maintained as a standard, it serves to highten the quality of the message boards for all of us, and also gives posters impetus to operate within those expressive abilities which will serve them very well in their future as physicians and/or professionals.

We might not hit the target every time, but we can certainly aim for excellence.

`



[This message has been edited by Stephen Ewen (edited 05-17-2000).]

 

[jdm]

Stephen, I agree w/ you wholeheartedly. The question is what is a moderator to do when a party or parties persistently refuse to abide by the rules of civility and they exploit the anonymity of the web to cast spurious aspersions on all and sundry.

As an aside, I think the general tenor of the postings here are intelligent and respectful. Damn - downright encouraging and informative!!

 

[bobo]

Andre is a jerk and a tool and a shill. Pay no attention to him. He has no respect from ANYONE on this board.

 

[UHS2002]

Having lived and studied abroad for many years,and met many IMGs, I always follow the discussions on this board with much interest.

I have a question for all of you:
doesn't it bother you that every time Andre talks about his wife he says "I SENT her to AUC" ????? I mean, couldn't she just decide where to go and do so on her own volition? What about "my wife and I decided..." ?! She had to "be sent" by her hubby???? The merit of each particular school aside, didn't this strike anyone has a supremely condescending position? Everytime I read it, I cringe, but it is a sentence that has appeared verbatim in most of Andre's posts.

Andre, are you also researching residency programs for your wife to decide where you are going to "send her" next?!

Aaaaaaaaaargh

 

[Rockndoc]

Originally posted by Andre:
RocknDoc:
<<<<<My "uninformed" position?? My secret "agenda" ??
I say you are making a lot of assumptions, talking about someone you don't know; and you have a big mouth..>>>>>

"A big mouth?"...LOL...Isn't that a response that one party uses when a second party is revealing truths that the first party wishes to keep concealed? In other words, my mouth only seems big to you because the words coming out of it aren't what you want to hear.
You're right, I dont know you...but I know your posts only too well.

<<<<<I sent my wife to AUC, 2-years ago,...yada yada
I would have another Master's degree (now I have 2: MSME and MBA)
I feel that I am one of the most qualified to give advice on IMG issues.>>>>>

You are missing the most important part of being an "expert" on the subject. You dont have a clue about what goes on inside American hospitals or in the minds of American program directors.
I have spent the past two years working in hospitals with students from SGU, Ross, students from American med schools and DO students. I went on interviews at 14 different hospitals for residency. This does not make me an expert, but it DOES make me well informed when I say "When you are an IMG, the school you attended makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to doctors at American hospitals." They look at us on an individual basis. Board scores, CV, US citizen, etc...

On a side note...(this is not a dis, Im just curious) Where do AUC students rotate? In the last 2 years I have only come into contact with 1 of them (At St Mary's Hosp. in Waterbury CT.)

<<<<<I will repeat for the final time:
St George's and AUC are the only 2 that I recommend equally. For a single girl or a family, AUC is slightly better (safer); as I know that crime & drugs are bigger in Grenada.>>>>>

Acually, Saba is MUCH safer than St. Marten (AUC). OH yeah...but you visited every island...so you probably already know that.

<<<<<SABA is the last resort, if you can NOT enter the first two.>>>>>

This is where I take issue with you. You make statements like this with nothing to back it up. I chose Saba over the SGU and Ross because it was the school that best fit my needs. Its a very personal issue.
Since the name of the school doesn't matter to program directors and since the schools we have been discussing will all allow one to do well on boards, the only important thing left is to decide where one would be happiest.
It's true that I am a Saba grad, but I am not pushing Saba (nor do they need me to.) In fact, I would tell him NOT to go to Saba if he didn't feel he would be happiest there. Thats the difference between me an you Andre. And thats why I tell hopedoc to talk to as many people as possible, so he can figure out at which school HE belongs. Your wife went to AUC and she loved it...that's great! But not everyone is your wife.

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-17-2000).]

 

[Andre]

SGU and AUC has Low-interest FEDERAL Stafford loans where interest can be deferred..
SABA has only TERI loans.
SGU and AUC grads CAN be licensed in all 50 states, while California, NY, etc does NOT license SABA students.
St Maarten is a fun island with beautiful beaches.. SABA is a microscopic island with NO beaches (Kamikaze landings)
Education is probably the same, but St Maarten is a much nicer place to live for 2 years.
AUC has about 10 Hospitals in USA (ALL TEACHING hospitals) while most of SABA's clinicals are in Non-teaching. You pay EXTRA to get all teaching rotations.
Several good SABA profs run away to start another school 2-years ago.
And yes, I help my wife a lot.. I taught her English, I helped her thru homeworks, I put her through Grade 12, Premed, BS-Biology... wherever she picks her residency, I will be fully supporting her.. Any problem with that??

 

[Want2bedoc]

Andre,

You did it again.

You missrepresented the truth.

Care to reevaluate that comment about NY and Saba?

I am glad though you came clean on the education issue. It is equal, which is what nearly everyone in this folder has been saying.

 

[UHS2002]

You "put her through Grade 12" ???!!! What was she? A "third world bride"???

You taught her English??? I guess this may explain why she needed to go to an offshore school, despite the stellar numbers you told us she had.

You helped her with her homework? If she is as bright as you said she was, couldn't she do her own homework???

Does she have a mind of her own or you also think her thoughts??? Sorry, you don't come across as supporting, just controlling.

Supporting would be "we decided", "we checked", "she went". Controlling is "I sent her", "I went everywhere and checked the schools out", blah, blah. I guess you didn't bother to teach her these subtleties in the English language.

My guess is that she doesn't even exist. It is your fantasy story to cover up the fact that you are a recruiter. Lame, IMHO. I would not accept as good any advise that came from someone who refers to "his wife" in such a patronizing way.

Man, not only you are a recruiter, you are scary...

Sorry folks from getting away from the main debate, but I heard so much "my wife" c--p from Andre that I had to get this off my chest.

[This message has been edited by UHS2002 (edited 05-17-2000).]

 

[Want2bedoc]

UHS,

I was thinking the same thing.

Through grade 12? What is that about?

Taught her english? Again, What is that about?

I noticed something, Andre's "wife" completed semester 5 sometime last year according to his post in February ("my wife just completed her 5th semester") which begs the question, is she doing clinicals?

If so, dare I ask where? Is Andre teaching her those in the basement?

Any credibility he thought he had was just flushed after his last post. Truly frightening stuff.


James

 

[bobo]

Actually he didn't have any credibility to begin with. He pretty much got called on his BS early on.

 

[Rockndoc]

<<<<<

Originally posted by Andre:
SGU and AUC has Low-interest FEDERAL Stafford loans where interest can be deferred..
SABA has only TERI loans.>>>>>

True, but the tuition is much higher than Saba.

<<<<<SGU and AUC grads CAN be licensed in all 50 states, while California, NY, etc does NOT license SABA students.>>>>>

FALSE

<<<<<St Maarten is a fun island with beautiful beaches.. SABA is a microscopic island with NO beaches (Kamikaze landings)>>>>>

True, but on the other hand, when you are studying medicine there is something to be said for having no distractions. On weekends after exams, many Saba students fly to St. Maarten and other islands. It Cost $33.oo to fly to St Maarten when I was there.

<<<<<Education is probably the same, but St Maarten is a much nicer place to live for 2 years.>>>>>

True about the education, I disagree about the island.

<<<<<AUC has about 10 Hospitals in USA (ALL TEACHING hospitals) while most of SABA's clinicals are in Non-teaching. You pay EXTRA to get all teaching rotations.>>>>>

I dont know how to even answer this! What, are you making this up as you go along!

All of my rotations were at "Greenbook" teaching hospitals and I didnt pay a dime for them.

You peaked my curiosity so I went to the unofficial AUC forum. Why didn't you mention that most AUC students have to do at least some, if not all, rotations in England. I don't think this is necessarily a negative but I do think it's funny that you never mentioned it.

<<<<<Several good SABA profs run away to start another school>>>>>

And what is your point here? You are faulting a school because a couple of their professors left to persue an entrepreneurial endeavor???

And why does the "husband of an AUC student" know so much about what is going on with another schools faculty?
Originally, you were doing "research for your wife," but this all happened after your wife began AUC. Why are you still researching Saba?

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rockndoc (edited 05-18-2000).]

 

[Taylor DO]

Andre,

Do you have no shame?

You claim Saba students have to "pay extra" to get clinical spots in teaching institutions?

Why would you lie so blatantly?

Debating a point is one thing, but to manufacture lies to try and prove something that is not true is only making you look like a child.

For the sake of your reputation, why do you continue this?

I am pleased to read that you have come to your senses and told readers that the education is equal between AUC and Saba students. However, it just begs a question, if the education is equal, how can you think Saba would not be a good choice for any potential student?

 

[nextup]

Not to get too far off the subject, but I'm interested in everyone's thoughts about MUA. I am attracted by it's SABA pedigree, but I'm also concerned about it being so new. Taylor DO, you seem to feel it is a good option, would you mind giving me your thoughts?

I am looking for a school that will provide a strong academic curriculum without a cut-throat, competitive atmosphere. I am looking for an island that will be safe and enjoyable for me and my family. It would also be nice if all this were financially affordable.

Thanks!

 

[Aron]

I would have to agree with the majority in this forum that each of the schools mentioned has advantages and drawbacks. Personally, whether an island has a beach or not concerns me very little.

As of May I will be attending MUA, and although my original application was to Saba, I am perfectly happy to have the opportunity at 34 to pursue my life's dream at a school that is seemingly a good copy of the program Saba offers.

I also did a lot of research before I applied to Saba, and my findings agree with those voices of reason to which Andre does not seem to belong. Contrary to what Andre believes, Saba is offering a superior medical education, as evidenced by the USMLE stats and residencies obtained.

But, as has been stated here any of the schools mentioned offer the necessary tools for a student to complete a medical degree and practice anywhere in the U.S. (as long as one is aware of a few pitfalls).

Arrogance has no place in medicine, so I am glad that it is not Andre pursuing a medical degree. Hopefully his wife balances him out with those qualities he does not appear to possess.

Honestly, I do not care who has what qualifications in this forum. Good advice about researching your schools could be offered by a child, and still be just as good advice...regardless the source.

Hopefully those who think carefully about the type of personality that needs to put down others........well, I really don't need to go there as others more highly qualified than I have written books about it.

If in the near future anyone has questions regarding MUA, or even something as simple as the actual move to Nevis (with wife, two dogs and a cat) please feel free to email me.

Aron Kerner

 

[j7chico]

Hey Hopedoc,
I am an international medical graduate. I have had the pleasure to work with many IMG's to date. I have also had the opportunity to work with many US graduates. I can only tell you this. The school your friend chooses doesn't matter. Program Directors see US grad vs. IMG. I have seen brilliant physicians who graduated from schools outside the US. I have also less than average physicians who graduated from schools here in the US. It is what your friend puts into it. When it is all said and done, your friend wants a good residency position in whatever discipline he/she wishes to pursue. This can be accomplished with a good USMLE SCORE which is the principle factor for many specialties and showing strong work ethic during electives at the programs you wish to train. You can get the education virtually anywhere. It is what you really learn and apply that counts. If your friend really wants to be a good physician, nothing could get in his/her way. Thousands of others have done it.
Good Luck to your friend.
Jerry

 

[Cataniac]

Taylor,


I work At The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, I am an aplicant to AUC and was accepted, I visited and liked the facilities, I felt confident in the school... But i didn't feel confident when the topic of clinical rotations and residency arose during my visit... Is it hard to get a residency after attending a foreign Medical school, I would to talk to one of you Docs if they have some free time, I am really a dedicated person who isreally confused about this decision wether to stay for another year and apply in the U.S. again or just to get on with it and become a physican through AUC...

If anyone has any input please contact me at [email protected]