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Started by podarski
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podarski said:
Here's the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
Median annual earnings of wage and salary clinical, counseling, and school psychologists in 2002 were $51,170. The middle 50 percent earned between $38,560 and $66,970. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $30,090, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $87,060. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of clinical, counseling, and school psychologists in 2002 were as follows:
Offices of other health practitioners $59,600
Elementary and secondary schools 54,480
Offices of physicians 51,140
Outpatient care centers 44,010
Individual and family services 37,490
Source: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm#earnings
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50960
Most licensed clinical psychologists make about 100k/yr, and many make much more..
🙂
🙂
psisci said:
The feds must have gotten it wrong.
Where's your data?
yeah, all the professors at my school do a little work on the side and most make >$200K/year. I think because the feds threw in counseling and school psychologists and may have also included Master's Level practitioners, the salary figures look misleading (?)
podarski said:
BLS statistics consistently underestimate the salaries of psychologists because of the sampling procedures they use. Most notably,
"The survey does not include the self employed owners and partners in unincorporated firms, household workers, or unpaid family workers."
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes_tec.htm
Thus psychologists' salaries as they are reported represent only the salaries of those who work in industry settings and exclude any earnings of private practice psychologists. Since most psychologists (even those who work for hospitals, schools, or colleges) do have a private practice on the side, the salary estimate given is really very inaccurate even for those who are not full-time private practitioners.
psychgeek said:
This makes me feel better.... while I'm not in psychology for the money I was getting slightly depressed about making the same as master's level therapists.
Guys,
I'm sorry, but no one I know is making 100k. I too got false hope from those stats when I was a postdoc. I know a lot of clinicians in many different places in the country. The only ones who might make that much are forensic psychologists, and they have godawful insurance premiums -- and they will most likely get sued at some point in their career. (data from recent ethics/practice seminar). They must have some people in that pool that have skewed the average significantly.
The median out of school is about 30k, and the average person in practice is about 45-55k. The most I ever made full time was 70k, and I'm a specialist, I was in the Bay Area, and that was a unionized position.
If you want money, specialize in I/O and be a consultant, or be a forensic psychologist and take being sued and your malpractice premiums as part of the costs of being in business.
I'm sorry, but no one I know is making 100k. I too got false hope from those stats when I was a postdoc. I know a lot of clinicians in many different places in the country. The only ones who might make that much are forensic psychologists, and they have godawful insurance premiums -- and they will most likely get sued at some point in their career. (data from recent ethics/practice seminar). They must have some people in that pool that have skewed the average significantly.
The median out of school is about 30k, and the average person in practice is about 45-55k. The most I ever made full time was 70k, and I'm a specialist, I was in the Bay Area, and that was a unionized position.
If you want money, specialize in I/O and be a consultant, or be a forensic psychologist and take being sued and your malpractice premiums as part of the costs of being in business.
Janusdog said:
Finally, a dose of reality.
Shrinking psychologist salaries are part of the reason why psychologists are in a frenzy trying to obtain RxP. That being said, I know at least five clinical neuropsychologists -- four forensic specialists, one who works for a pharmaceutical company -- and they all make $200K+ per year.
All I can tell you is what I know: All my professors (clinical and neuropsychologists) are very, very well off. My parents and my aunt, also clinical psychologists clear about 150K each. My parents are in private practice, and my aunt works for MetroCare (in Texas), a service provide to MR/DD individuals. She was making $70K right out of school (in the very early '80s). Neither your sample nor my sample is random, so we cannot say peremptorily how much a psychologist actually makes. However, I know from looking at the APA classifieds that it is more than 30K; a master's level practitioner makes that...
edieb said:
Edie, people who have been in practice for a while now probably do fine. They have their network of referrals and have an existing reputation. I am talking about people trying to get a leg up and get started in this market. Many people I know in the urban areas are applying to LCSW positions with a doctorate.
It also depends on the structure of the private practice. If you are beholden to managed care and you do not have people turning the paperwork for you, you don't make that much. The people that I know who make that much in private practice these days make their money by employing a stable of clinicians, from whom they take a cut. I have had multiple offers to do testing while a guy who sits above me takes 50-60% of my billed rate.
It's not that simple. Everyone knows people who are the exception. All I can tell you is my experience in the market. Neuropsych is very competitive these days as well. I don't mean to discourage anyone, but this is a big part of the reason why I am respecializing. I am tired of making no money and/or being solicited to make money for someone else. It is a demographic+specialty+motivation+connections equation that is different for everyone. I have seen way too many people come out short to jump to the 'obvious' conclusion that we will make more than MAs. Guess what? You're competing for the same jobs. Lots of organizations think that we're just the same and are happy to pay less, because they think a therapist is a therapist is a therapist.
The latest ads I have seen are for Psych RNs to do therapy. That's a new one on me, and scary.
ETA: 30k for a postdoc (right out of school) is a good salary. And then there is the benefits question, which affects your base.
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I agree to some degree. The reality of our field is we get what we make of it, not what someone offers us. I made 6 figs this year, graduated in 99, licensed in 2001, but it took some work!! If you are looking for a good post-doc, look to state hospitals! I did my PD in a state hospital, made 55k to start, with benefits and have received a great (now 5 year) training in both psych as well as (due to the fact I was attending) medical/psychiatric that can be offered anywhere. It is out there if you are willing to look..\
😎
😎
Janusdog said:
If you don't mind me asking, in what are you respecializing?
Also, the whole thing with competing with MAs is simply not cool. There are some psychologists, none of them actually in practice, who are passionate about MAs being able to practice in the same manner as a doctoral degree psychologist... I continue to question their motives. It's true that a lot of this is "turf war" stuff. But really, you can't convince me that it is not absurd to think that a practitioner with a PhD is equivalent to a practitioner with a master's degree.The curricula and the enthusiasm of the students towards school are just not the same from my experience. (This is probably a little off base when it comes to enthusiasm toward school. I can only speak from my experience.) Master's degree programs feel too much like vocational school to me, particularly when no thesis is required, which is usually the case when the end goal is licensure in a master's program. Also, PhDs get more training (didactic, practice, research) before they even begin practice. The MA-level seems to require more on-the-job type of training. Maybe I'm wrong. Plus, the competitiveness masters programs cannot compare to that of clinical psych programs.This MSW-MA-PhD thing is one of the reasons why I am not interested in working solely as a therapist.
Janusdog said:
And to think, I could have gone into nursing to be a psychiatric nurse. Then again, being a male nurse comes with a hell of a lot of b.s. to have to deal with, from what it seems. I'm still interested in being a doctoral psychologist though. Quite frankly, it's really the only thing I'm seriously interested in. I want the option of being an academic right out of school if I choose that, but I would also like the option of practicing at some level.
Janusdog said:
The salary issue, making 45k-55k a year, wouldn't be such a big deal to me if not for me being somewhat of a late starter. I'm in my late 20s and will be applying this year to doctoral programs. The way I look at it is if I go into academia, I would be making an equivalent amount to someone with a PhD in chemistry, biology, or other "hard sciences" degree in an academic position in a four-year university.
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PsychMode said:
Well, sure. You don't need to convince me, I know that, and you know that, and everyone here knows that. But many business people with no psych background don't know that. They know that PhDs cost x, and MAs cost y, and cost y is easier to swallow. Salaries are a company's biggest expense, especially when you throw in medical benefits. They see it this way: they're both licensed, they can both do therapy. As I said above, I have seen several licensed PsyDs apply for LCSW positions just in the past year. That's what I mean about salaries being driven down. You need to work, the adverts are for MAs. You apply for a lower paying job so you can make some money rather than none. Value goes down, as well as percieved value.
I train MAs. I have mixed feelings about this, but the way I see it, I can put just as much pressure on them as I do on the PhDs/PsyDs. Maybe the higher expectations will force a higher level of practice. This group has been in training about 6 months. I have already gotten feedback through these students that their cohorts confusedly ask them why they are learning this or that, when that is done for them at their agency. I have heard that in both MAs and PsyD programs they are not teaching the DSM as much, so no one knows how to diagnose. Everyone is a V code or Adjustment Disordered! And just forget about any kind of formal theoretical conceptualization. I make them do presentations on DSM categories and make them come to supervision with a few rule outs for their patients. I figure if they're in independent practice, like a lot of them told me they want to be, then I have to protect patients by making sure they are competent. Me not training them does not end the problem.
I know I got off on a bit of a tangent, but I see a poorer quality student in general (not anyone here! 😎 )plus market forces conspiring to make it difficult to make a living. I think it's great that psisci is doing so well. Congrats, I really mean that, and it's not my desire to rain on anyone's parade. I do believe that if you are motivated and you have the talent, you will do well. I've done okay, I do better than most people I know who graduated at the same time. I also should not talk about the academic environment, as I don't do that, I don't know, and so it's possible that academia offers more. And obviously working for the state is a sweet deal.
Maybe it's not "respecializing" so much as it is getting out. I'm back in school for health industry management, actually. D'oh.
Great posts, when I look at the APA Job Monitor, though, .99 of the postings want Ph.D.s or Psy.D.s. I have only seen one MSW or Ph.D. posting. Judging from that, the reality is that doctoral level psychologists are the higher paid. What am I missing?
Janusdog said:
I have heard that in both MAs and PsyD programs they are not teaching the DSM as much, so no one knows how to diagnose. Everyone is a V code or Adjustment Disordered! And just forget about any kind of formal theoretical conceptualization. I make them do presentations on DSM categories and make them come to supervision with a few rule outs for their patients.
I'd like to follow up on your tangent 🙂
I'm in my PhD II and I agree that diagnosis was taught to me poorly - oh yes, I did have a course called Psychopathology which gave me a critical view of the DSM but did not actually teach me how to apply it.
Do you have any resources you'd recommend to students that would like to learn it on their own time (and whose practicum settings are not focused around the DSM)?
I'd like to follow up on your tangent 🙂
I'm in my PhD II and I agree that diagnosis was taught to me poorly - oh yes, I did have a course called Psychopathology which gave me a critical view of the DSM but did not actually teach me how to apply it.
Do you have any resources you'd recommend to students that would like to learn it on their own time (and whose practicum settings are not focused around the DSM)?
lazure said:
Hm...you know, I don't really consider myself DSM focused either. I think that you learn this stuff through good diagnostic interviewing. In the back of the large DSM there are decision trees. That helps some people. Good books on interviewing will help. I think there's one called "where to start and what to ask" that has a good reputation.
I don't know about the DSM-IV Training Guide. It looks like it might be okay.
I also like: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...1/102-7519577-6997757?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance
Honestly, I just don't see how you can diagnose without just knowing the criteria almost by heart. I'm not talking about nitpicky stuff like 2 weeks vs. 3 weeks. I mean the difference between schizoaffective, schizophrenic, schizophreniform and schizoid. Just memorize the damn thing. It's not a waste of time, it helps you make decisions in the middle of your interview.
Also, I would highly recommend an ER rotation. Nothing makes you think faster and know your criteria better than a stint in the emergency room.
Also, I would highly recommend an ER rotation. Nothing makes you think faster and know your criteria better than a stint in the emergency room.
they have placements in ER for psychology students ? Sorry for my ignorance, but that's news to me...
One practicum placement I looked at was a psychiatric crisis service that received referrals from ERs for short term intervention...is that what you had in mind?
My biggest beef with the teaching of psychology is that a lot of the training you get depends on the placement you're in....and these can range from solid training to swimming by yourself in deep water... I wish there was more consistency
they have placements in ER for psychology students ? Sorry for my ignorance, but that's news to me...
One practicum placement I looked at was a psychiatric crisis service that received referrals from ERs for short term intervention...is that what you had in mind?
My biggest beef with the teaching of psychology is that a lot of the training you get depends on the placement you're in....and these can range from solid training to swimming by yourself in deep water... I wish there was more consistency
I wonder what the APA is doing (other than RxP, that's a whole 'nother thread) abotu this problem. Granted, economic interests are extremely powerful. But I really think more should be done on educating agencies, etc. on why doctoral psychologists are necessary and should be paid commensurately with their training and education. How much effort is the APA putting into this? (Are they putting their backs into it?)
lazure said:
They usually have them as part of internship. If you do internship in a hospital, sometimes they have ER rotations. I know some local hospitals employ grad students to do ER evals. I did a crisis therapy practicum as well as an ER rotation during internship. It's quite a rush.
😀
PsychMode said:
Sorry for the cynical answer, but Nothing. That's why I quit the APA and joined APS. The APA wants over $400 a year from me, but they don't advocate to protect me from MAs or MSWs. Sorry, I think my money's best spent elsewhere.
Janusdog said:
Yep, I did a placement in an ER as well. It was actually so much fun I got hired there.
A lot has been made of this topic so I thought I'd chime in. The bottom line is that there are so many factors that influence someone's salary that it's almost worthless to discuss things like average salary, etc. The fact is, if you are working in private practice, you could make well over 100,000 per year as a clinical psychologist, or you could be making 50,000 or below. There is a tradeoff between how much you want to help the more needy populations vs. how much money you want/need to make. Another factor is location. If you are in a place like NYC or the Bay Area in California, you will have a much higher salary than someone living in Indiana or Wisconsin. For example, I have a family friend who is a clinical psychologist working in northern california who is able to charge over 200/hour (the average in that region is about 130-150/hour, which is still quite good) and who grosses about 200k/year working mostly with "normal", wealthier clientele. The point is, if you market yourself well and prioritize what you want, you can do exceptionally well as a clinical psychologist. For those of us who wish to work with needier patients, there are opportunities to do this as well.
Paendrag said:
If you don't mind my asking, where are you a post-doc? Do you think the market for clinical neuropsychology differs across states? What kinds of opportunities are available internationally?
Regarding your friend who makes $85K/year, does he do primarily assessment, therapy, consulting, or some combination of each? This is a rather high salary for a psychologist out of post-doc.
Thank you!
Median salary back in 2001
http://research.apa.org/doctoralsal02.html
Market Perceptions
http://research.apa.org/doctoralemp12.html
You might also find this salary survey useful
http://research.apa.org/01salary/index.html#clinical
It reports That the overall 11-12-month median salary for licensed doctoral-level clinical psychologists was $72,000 in 2001
http://research.apa.org/doctoralsal02.html
Market Perceptions
http://research.apa.org/doctoralemp12.html
You might also find this salary survey useful
http://research.apa.org/01salary/index.html#clinical
It reports That the overall 11-12-month median salary for licensed doctoral-level clinical psychologists was $72,000 in 2001
psychgeek said:
Three of the private practicing psychologists that I know all make over $120,000/year. Additionally, a couple of the psychologists who work at the county's local mental health center full-time (which is about 20-25 hours a week because it is so expensive to have them there) make a base salary of about $70,000-$75,000. When they're done putting in their daily visits to the mental health center, they head to their private practice and see clients. They each work around a combined total of 45-50 hours between the mental health center and their practice and end up pulling in about $150,000/year.
My experiences seems to hold rather true when I happened to stumble on APA salary data. Take a look at this link:
http://research.apa.org/01salary/table18c.pdf
Although this data is slightly outdated, one can see that the Mean salaries for doctoral level psychologists is significantly higher than that of the master's level, such that a psychologist with a doctorate working in full-time independent practice with 5-9 years of experience earns a mean of $92,102. This is compared to the master's therapist in the same situation, who make a mean of $61,813.
Moreover, according to the data, PhD/PsyD psychologists hit the 6 figure income level on AVERAGE (Mean) with 10-14 years of experience in full-time independent practice (mean $107,901). However, what I find interesting is that in the 3rd quartile (Q3: 75%), which my guess are the tireless and rather ambitious psychologists, we see these same PhD/PsyD psychologists hitting the 6 figure salary of $120,000 with 5-9 years of experience in the Q3 quartile. In comparison, the master's level Q3 was $85,000. So according to this data, there is quite a difference in income. One can argue this provides some support that there is a difference in pay between PhD/PsyD and MAs. Also, I think it shows that there is some good money out there, but its not always a cakewalk to get.
What else I found interesting about these higher salaries which some in the forum seem to argue are unobtainable and not real is the fact that this data set had an impressive N sample, making it more representative of what is really going on financially (although I'm sure some will argue me on this point). For example, the very same PhD/PsyD full-time independent practice psychologists mentioned above in Q3, who made a salary of $120,000 with 5-9 years of experience, had 118 psychologists who fell into this category where the mean= $92,102 and Q3=$120,000. So of those 118, there clearly is some good money in this younger professional group.
Want to practice for a long time? The data points out that with a doctorate and being a full-time independent practitioner of 30 or more years, the mean was $131,108 and the Q3 was $160,500. What was the N value for this senior group you ask? 93 psychologist fell into this category.
Sorry if I droned on, but here's the link again if you all want to see that this APA data shows that the financial picture is not as weak as what some may say.
http://research.apa.org/01salary/table18c.pdf
