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Well guys, same old, same old, resigned with no place to go, but fortunate to get a license but with a hope to graduate someday. If a director hears me, Sir/Madam, just consider the fact that we are humans not machines. It can happen to you as well someday for a malpractice or something. I do not want to create story because you probably know all about it.
 
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Sorry to hear that you're going through some issues... hope you find your way soon.
 

Shikima

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Try for the Federal Prisons and earn a rep for good work there. And re-enter residency.
 

Droopy Snoopy

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Try for the Federal Prisons and earn a rep for good work there. And re-enter residency.
Buddy of mine did just this... got released from a general surgery program (as a PGY-5 no less) for too many mouthings-off to the OR ancillary staff. He worked a couple of years in a federal prison then re-entered residency, subsequently got accepted to a colorectal fellowship and is now doing well in the LA suburbs. Despite all the woe-is-me stories that are generally posted to this forum, the medical training pipeline is not one-strike-you're-out... keep your head down, learn from your mistakes, and it's far more likely than not that things will come out right in the end.
 

Shikima

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Sigh. Another example of a screwed up system where residents are treated worse than the janitor - irrespective of mouthing off. Likely they deserved it too.
 
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aProgDirector

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Buddy of mine did just this... got released from a general surgery program (as a PGY-5 no less) for too many mouthings-off to the OR ancillary staff.
Sigh. Another example of a screwed up system where residents are treated worse than the janitor - irrespective of mouthing off. Likely they deserved it too.
Assuming your comment is about the above quote (and not the OP, who hasn't really told his/her story), I totally disagree. If a surgical PGY-5 resident has been mouthing off to OR ancillary staff and was warned about it (and hopefully received help to change) and doesn't, they should be fired. Treating support staff like crap is completely unacceptable behavior. I wouldn't tolerate it in a surgeon, nor a janitor. Both would be terminated.
 

Danbo1957

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Treating support staff like crap is completely unacceptable behavior. I wouldn't tolerate it in a surgeon, nor a janitor. Both would be terminated.
Really? Really? If you fire a PGY5 for "mouthing off" you will find your program blacklisted by applicants, and rightfully so.
 
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ruralsurg4now

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[Deleted by me, almost got me to contribute, SDN.]
 
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Droopy Snoopy

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Really? Really? If you fire a PGY5 for "mouthing off" you will find your program blacklisted by applicants, and rightfully so.
I didn't mean to be glib... the guy was quite mean on a good day, and God help the tech who was half a second slow handing him the Bovie.
 

ruralsurg4now

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The discussion of the "janitor who mouths off" being treated similar to a resident is ridiculous, by the way. First of all, when is the last time anyone ever had to talk to or interact with a janitor. Right, never. If everyone in the world left a resident alone, too, guess how many residents would mouth off? Right, zero. Second of all, anyone who treats a resident and janitor equally isn't very bright, as that would be assuming that a janitor is under similar stress to a resident, which they are not. I know it's en vogue to act like everyone is the same and a janitor is a CEO is a doctor, but no, they're not. Lastly, anyone ever tried to fire a nurse who mouths off to residents? Yeah, it's impossible. That's the magic of unions. That plus nurses have no ridiculous "fifth pillar of professionalism."
 
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SouthernSurgeon

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Really? Really? If you fire a PGY5 for "mouthing off" you will find your program blacklisted by applicants, and rightfully so.
It's not 1975 anymore. If a resident demonstrates a persistent pattern of abusing ancillary staff ( especially if these are documented incidents that have made it to hospital administration )...they will get fired
 
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Appropriate firing: resident was verbally abusive towards ancillary staff, PD sat down with resident --> identified the issue very clearly --> tried to look into other factors (e.g. stress) --> written notification --> professional resources provided (e.g. psychiatry) --> the PD let the resident know that if this behavior continued he or she would be fired --> continued abuse towards ancillary staff, as documented by more than one staff member independently --> fire.

Inappropriate firing: no help given to resident +/- warnings --> fire.
 
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Danbo1957

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Let me put it in the clearest possible wording: in the real world surgeons are valuable, ancillary staffs are not valuable.
 
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steven.a.smith

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Let me put it in the clearest possible wording: in the real world surgeons are valuable, anme. tcillary staffs are not valuable.
I could not agree with you more. However, there are many, and I mean many who believe and tout this mantra that everyone is equal and equally valuable and should be treated equally. They want to make the phlebotomist who draws the blood on equal footing as the Surgeon who just performed a life altering surgery. This thinking has and is gaining traction and will probably get worse before it gets better. We are NOT all the same and the priveleges afforded physicians should not and do not need to be afforded phlebotomists, nurses, nursing assistants etc.

Mouthing off to ancillary staff as a surgeon... WHO CARES in my opinion... You cant teach everyone manners. But I agree, you have to try to be polite to everyone. One other observation, stress, long hours, awesomie responsibility, time pressure all come into play in that simple (mouthing off) incident. I know at times people can look at me right in the face and say good morning to me and I can just walk by just not even realizing i just ignored someone who was trying to be nice. Hard to spread sunshine everywhere.
 
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SouthernSurgeon

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Let me put it in the clearest possible wording: in the real world surgeons are valuable, ancillary staffs are not valuable.
Seriously. I repeat again - it's not 1975 anymore.

The days where surgeons (resident or attending ) get to throw instruments, berate staff, and generally act like petulant children are gone. In some backwards programs those days are dying a slow painful death. In the vast majority they are dead already.

And good riddance.
 
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colbgw02

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Mouthing off to ancillary staff as a surgeon... WHO CARES in my opinion... You cant teach everyone manners. But I agree, you have to try to be polite to everyone. One other observation, stress, long hours, awesomie responsibility, time pressure all come into play in that simple (mouthing off) incident. I know at times people can look at me right in the face and say good morning to me and I can just walk by just not even realizing i just ignored someone who was trying to be nice. Hard to spread sunshine everywhere.
Well, to answer your rhetorical question, state medical boards care. Many, maybe most, of them have clauses about professional behavior, to include treatment of ancillary staff. Physicians can, and do, get formally penalized for their unruly behavior by their state's licensing authority.
 
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ruralsurg4now

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Seriously. I repeat again - it's not 1975 anymore.

The days where surgeons (resident or attending ) get to throw instruments, berate staff, and generally act like petulant children are gone. In some backwards programs those days are dying a slow painful death. In the vast majority they are dead already.

And good riddance.
And yet nobody can stamp out nurses who do the same. Odd, huh?
 

ruralsurg4now

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Well, to answer your rhetorical question, state medical boards care. Many, maybe most, of them have clauses about professional behavior, to include treatment of ancillary staff. Physicians can, and do, get formally penalized for their unruly behavior by their state's licensing authority.
That's actually false, by the way.

P.S. I hold multiple state licenses.
 

ruralsurg4now

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It's not false at all. I hold multiple state licenses as well.
Good, then you know you're wrong. In fact, you won't get denied any state license for that.

Oh, and before this turns into a pointless back and forth, since state license application forms are online, just point me to the state licensing authority that asks about this. It's really simple.
 
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colbgw02

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Good, then you know you're wrong. In fact, you won't get denied any state license for that.

Oh, and before this turns into a pointless back and forth, since state license application forms are online, just point me to the state licensing authority that asks about this. It's really simple.
Before I do that, you'll have to point to some place I said anything about license denial or getting asked about this issue on an application. Here's a hint: you won't find it.

So now that you've beaten the crap out of that straw man, we can return to my original and only contention, to wit, that license boards care about professional behavior. They have regulations stating as much, and they occasionally use these clauses against licensees who exhibit a pattern of abusive behavior toward subordinates.

Oh, and I checked the regulations of all of my license boards, and each one had a clause about professional behavior. It took a little digging, because most of these websites were apparently organized by a toddler, but some even had specific regulations regarding abusive behavior with a protocol for attending anger management classes. I even attended a recent board orientation for one of my new licenses that referenced a case of a surgeon being disciplined for his treatment of OR ancillary staff under the state's professional conduct clause.
 

ruralsurg4now

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Before I do that, you'll have to point to some place I said anything about license denial or getting asked about this issue on an application. Here's a hint: you won't find it.
Oh, so when you say that "you'll be penalized" by the state licensing authority, other than not issuing you a license, what penalty do they lay on you? This is going to get hilarious.
 

colbgw02

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Oh, so when you say that "you'll be penalized" by the state licensing authority, other than not issuing you a license, what penalty do they lay on you? This is going to get hilarious.
There are all sorts of penalties available to a board short of license denial or revocation. Off the top of my head, one could be given a letter of reprimand, placed on probation, forced to pay a fine, or - as I've already mentioned - mandated to attend anger management counseling.
 

ruralsurg4now

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There are all sorts of penalties available to a board short of license denial or revocation. Off the top of my head, one could be given a letter of reprimand, placed on probation, forced to pay a fine, or - as I've already mentioned - mandated to attend anger management counseling.
Oh, so when you apply for a state license, your contention is that they will grant it and reprimand you simultaneously? Or are you basically just making up stuff off the top of your head at this point?
 

colbgw02

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Oh, so when you apply for a state license, your contention is that they will grant it and reprimand you simultaneously? Or are you basically just making up stuff off the top of your head at this point?
The denial point was in reference to renewal, not initial application. You can keep trying to move the goal posts on this as much as you want, but it won't change the fact that you're the only one who has tried to make this about a license application. You're also speaking in circles in hopes that it will make you look smart. It's pure sophistry and it won't work. Everyone reading this thread can see it, except you, of course. You remind of this guy:



Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
 

ruralsurg4now

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The denial point was in reference to renewal, not initial application. You can keep trying to move the goal posts on this as much as you want, but it won't change the fact that you're the only one who has tried to make this about a license application. You're also speaking in circles in hopes that it will make you look smart. It's pure sophistry and it won't work. Everyone reading this thread can see it, except you, of course. You remind of this guy:



Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
Oh, so to be clear, you're claiming that you're only referring at this point to license RENEWALS now in unspecified states where physicians are supposedly given renewed licenses with simultaneous reprimands? Just to be clear.
 

ruralsurg4now

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I'm not bickering. I'm summarizing his posts.
 
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Is it bad that I am amused by the sheer fact there are attendings out there who use memes? :corny:
 
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