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[HesitantPsyD]

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Hi All...
I have read, and mostly agree with the suspicion people have about the financial prudence of professional PsyD programs. It does indeed seem unwise to take out $150000 in student loans for getting eventual jobs that will not pay enough to justify that kind of debt.

However, my current situation is somewhat unique and I'm requesting advice. First off, a little about me. I have a university based Masters degree in clinical psychology (it basically amounts to a counseling degree however) and I have an intern level license to practice under supervision as a professional counselor in Illinois. Due to the terrible nature of the state budget I am doing case management at a CMHC for little pay and high risk to the nature of my particular population. I had a box cutter pulled on me recently alone in someone's home, and believe I barely escaped with my life. Due in particular to my interest in testing and my desire to have more psychodynamic training, I am considering a Chicago based PsyD, possibly at Roosevelt but otherwise at one of the professional schools if that doesn't work out (my undergrad GPA from 20 years ago was only 2.97, although my much more recent grad GPA was 3.8). My issue is, I recently inherited around $1 million dollars, and could actually afford this type of education out of pocket and incur no debt. Based on this fact, does any of this change your opinion regarding whether or not I should spend $100000 on a PsyD. At this point, but probably not forever I am geographically restricted to Chicagoland due to personal issues. Since I don't know about getting into the more prudently reliable Roosevelt program, should I consider one of the professional schools knowing I will incur no debt and knowing the risks?

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd still be looking to not spend well over 100k for a degree that can be obtained from a fully funded program that offers a stipend. I'd be looking for the best training fit, rather than simply something I can kind of afford. People get, and stay, wealthy by making good financial decisions. Way too many options available without spending six figures abound.

 

[HesitantPsyD]

I'd still be looking to not spend well over 100k for a degree that can be obtained from a fully funded program that offers a stipend. I'd be looking for the best training fit, rather than simply something I can kind of afford. People get, and stay, wealthy by making good financial decisions. Way too many options available without spending six figures abound.

In that case I'm open to suggestions about any funded PsyD other than Rutgers and Baylor (with little recent research experience a PH.D. is unlikely especially with my undergrad GPA). I don't want to get into a debate about PsyDs vs PhD because of course a funded PhD is far preferable but I don't think it's in the cards.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Based on this fact, does any of this change your opinion regarding whether or not I should spend $100000 on a PsyD. At this point, but probably not forever I am geographically restricted to Chicagoland due to personal issues. Since I don't know about getting into the more prudently reliable Roosevelt program, should I consider one of the professional schools knowing I will incur no debt and knowing the risks?

Sorry to hear about the box cutter incident & glad you're okay. During our training, my doctoral program advised a former externship of mine of no longer being able to do 'homevisits' for the same reason/risk that you mentioned, and required patients with severe mental illness to make their way to our clinic or they could not receive our services. It was disappointing for those very patients who utilized the home services appropriately, but were home-bound (for whatever reason).

Regarding the professional school advice: I can clearly see how somewhat of a windfall can lead to changes of heart. With that said, I would continue to build your application to be competitive for a university-based degree (http://www.bestpsychologydegrees.com/in/illinois-m-z/). You could search old threads on this forum for good programs that would fit your research and clinical interests.

I agree with WisNeuro, about "People get, and stay, wealthy by making good financial decisions." I was faced with a similar dilemma (my husband had several really great business deals) and we could've paid for a university-based PsyD >$150K degree with no funding, but, being a business-minded person, he could not rationalize that dream for and with me...and I agreed to keeping chugging away until a funded program with a great academic/research fit came along. In the long-term, it was the best decision ever. I have little debt coming out of graduate school (I still have some debt from a masters prior to doctoral training).

Peace of mind (from being satisfied in your journey and end results) has long term capital gains...even if you could write one check for graduate school. Also, the secondary gain is being surrounded by a cohort of fairly-like minded people. I have a dear friend who graduated from a diploma mill in CA, and fellow students were not be desired (cut-throat, entitled, etc. per my friend). My friend worked hard, took loans out, and was deeply vested in the work. Now, this person is faced with how to pay back $250K with a starting salary of $78K. OP, this is not your situation but IMO I'm wondering if the cash would be better served somewhere else, while you work towards being the most intrinsically, competitive applicant you can be?

Regardless of your final decision, good luck!

P.S. And like so many others, being competitive for a PsyD puts you in the same market for a PhD...don't discount yourself by thinking the degree is holier than thou (if those are your thoughts that you do not want to debate 😉). Sure, it is tough...but all doctorates are tough. They were designed that way or everyone would pick one up all the way.

 

[PsyDr]

I always worry about people who have limitations. There are incompatibilities with that mindset/circumstances and success. Even if you get into Roosevelt, what's the plan for internship and postdoc? And the plan for succeeding in the oversaturated market in Chicago after getting licensed?

Based upon the information, I would apply to the Chicago psychoanalytic institute. Decent place. Big names. Would allow you to get some insight into your own desires at the same time as your education. High paying client base if you decide that is enough education. Great CV builder if not.

In the mean time, I would spend a good amount of time learning about finances. A safe withdrawal rate for a mil should be around $30k/yr in perpetuity or 40k for 30 years. If you don't know this stuff, you'd be well served learning about it.

 

[WisNeuro]

In that case I'm open to suggestions about any funded PsyD other than Rutgers and Baylor (with little recent research experience a PH.D. is unlikely especially with my undergrad GPA). I don't want to get into a debate about PsyDs vs PhD because of course a funded PhD is far preferable but I don't think it's in the cards.

Grad GPA and work experience could offset the undergrad GPA. Funded PhDs aren't out of the question. If you're interested in testing/neuropsych, Roosevelt is not the place to get good experience in those domains. I have yet to see a good neuro intern or postdoc app from there.

 

[Freud'sCouch]

Long time lurker here but I have some awareness of the Chicago/Illinois area so I thought I'd chime in. (Most of my info re. Roosevelt is from a colleague who attended the program as well as time working at a training setting in the area which dealt directly with schools/prac students).

The program at Roosevelt seems to be fairly adept at producing solid internship applicants. They have a history of decent match rates plus two years running of 100% APA match. However, I'm not in the position to remark on their neuro training like WisNeuro so if that is what you are going for it may be useful to do some further digging. The perception (in the city at least) is that Roosevelt is the only school that is actually competitive to get into. If I'm not mistaken they cap their classes around 17 and do offer some, though not fully funded, assistance in the form of tuition reductions/assistantships. Compare that to the professional schools with classes of 75+, higher tuition, and significantly worse statistics and the difference is clear. From my experience, RU students looking for practicum are typically given consideration before those from the prof. schools. From what I've heard about RU, they are much more focused on EBP and options for psychodynamic training may not be available or as detailed as what you are after.

With that being said however, if you are competitive at RU you certainly could be competitive at some of the fully funded options available in the area. Off the top of my head I believe Northern Illinois, Loyola, and Illinois Tech(?) are all funded. Plus the more obvious but probably more competitive positions at Northwestern or UIC. Depending on how tied to the area you are, Marquette could be a possibility as well.

Even if you are independently wealthy, it still would be poor planning if you did not consider funding options. 100000 can go a long way and you never know what the future could hold for you.
Also: GET OUT OF ILLINOIS ASAP. The state is going down the toilet in terms of funding for any type of mental health service.

 

[psychstudent5]

Also: GET OUT OF ILLINOIS ASAP. The state is going down the toilet in terms of funding for any type of mental health service.

Can you talk more about this? I did an internship in Chicago several years ago. I really liked the city and I'm contemplating moving back there in the next 1-2 years for a lower cost of living (I'm on the East Coast where the cost of living is unsustainable) and to be near family.

 

[HesitantPsyD]

Can you talk more about this? I did an internship in Chicago several years ago. I really liked the city and I'm contemplating moving back there in the next 1-2 years for a lower cost of living (I'm on the East Coast where the cost of living is unsustainable) and to be near family.

Illinois is definitely not doing well, to say the least, as far as mental health funding. A completely obstructionist governor has held the state hostage for going on two years for purely ideological political reasons, so there hasn't really been a functioning budget for that time period. Smaller agencies are going out of business, and larger ones are having to make drastic cuts to keep the doors open. Full disclosure... Things are bad even above and beyond this as far as state funding is concerned. Even if I decide to go to school here I don't know if I would stay even if I could.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

You have a million dollars and you are already legally able to provide treatment, why the heck do you need a PsyD!!!! Take your cash, start building a business and get training in what you need outside of a school. It will cost you less to get thorough and in-depth training through the chicago institute for psychoanalysis then at a crappy PsyD. Some of the best psychodynamic practitioners are part of that institute. If you are very interested in assessment, find training outside of a school program.

If I had a mil, I would open up a practice and hire practitioners and make money of the business rather than be the provider. Well, actually if I had a million I would invest in something that give me about 4% annual return, live off the 4% and work part time in something that makes my life happy. I wouldn't spend 6-10 years working on a doctoral degree and psychologist licensure, especially at this point in life.

 

[erg923]

Hi All...
I have read, and mostly agree with the suspicion people have about the financial prudence of professional PsyD programs. It does indeed seem unwise to take out $150000 in student loans for getting eventual jobs that will not pay enough to justify that kind of debt.

However, my current situation is somewhat unique and I'm requesting advice. First off, a little about me. I have a university based Masters degree in clinical psychology (it basically amounts to a counseling degree however) and I have an intern level license to practice under supervision as a professional counselor in Illinois. Due to the terrible nature of the state budget I am doing case management at a CMHC for little pay and high risk to the nature of my particular population. I had a box cutter pulled on me recently alone in someone's home, and believe I barely escaped with my life. Due in particular to my interest in testing and my desire to have more psychodynamic training, I am considering a Chicago based PsyD, possibly at Roosevelt but otherwise at one of the professional schools if that doesn't work out (my undergrad GPA from 20 years ago was only 2.97, although my much more recent grad GPA was 3.8). My issue is, I recently inherited around $1 million dollars, and could actually afford this type of education out of pocket and incur no debt. Based on this fact, does any of this change your opinion regarding whether or not I should spend $100000 on a PsyD. At this point, but probably not forever I am geographically restricted to Chicagoland due to personal issues. Since I don't know about getting into the more prudently reliable Roosevelt program, should I consider one of the professional schools knowing I will incur no debt and knowing the risks?

You have a million dollars and want to piss away over a tenth of it?! Whats wrong with you? If you wont miss the 150k, then at least invest it for goodness sake!

You have a licensed and more start up capital than you will be able to spend. The fish tank in your office can be the ****, and you can attract the best talent in your area with your generous productivity bonus structure.

 

[Pragma]

With that being said however, if you are competitive at RU you certainly could be competitive at some of the fully funded options available in the area. Off the top of my head I believe Northern Illinois, Loyola, and Illinois Tech(?) are all funded. Plus the more obvious but probably more competitive positions at Northwestern or UIC. Depending on how tied to the area you are, Marquette could be a possibility as well.

Northwestern, Loyola, DePaul, UIC are probably better options in that they are fully funded and have better reputations in the area. I believe Roosevelt and IIT will cost you.

Also: GET OUT OF ILLINOIS ASAP. The state is going down the toilet in terms of funding for any type of mental health service.

That $1 million could go a lot faster than you think in a state like IL...

 

[smalltownpsych]

Even Dr. Evil had to learn that one million dollars doesn't buy what it used to. I wonder how much he spent on his doctorate in evil studies. Hmmmm.

 

[Pragma]

View attachment 208919
Even Dr. Evil had to learn that one million dollars doesn't buy what it used to. I wonder how much he spent on his doctorate in evil studies. Hmmmm.

Caribbean Evil Medical School - he had to overcome the stigma!

 

[Sanman]

You have an interest in testing and psychodynamic therapy, but what is that you want to do and what the license requirements to do it where you want to live? Those are the first questions you need to answer. If private practice is what you want, figure about what you need to do to get independently licensed with the least amount of trouble.

 

[Doctor-S]

Due in particular to my interest in testing and my desire to have more psychodynamic training ... I recently inherited around $1 million dollars, and could actually afford ... education out of pocket and incur no debt.

If you intend to be gainfully employed in a new category of mental health (e.g., PsyD, PhD, Certified Psychoanalyst), what do you want to *do* in this new category?

Although you have inherited money, and feel that money is not an obstacle at this time in your life, what do you want to *do* in your career - that is, what do you foresee yourself doing in the future (with a new academic degree or a new credential), whether you are independently wealthy or dependent on student loans?

For instance:

1. Have you thought about the pros and cons; likes and dislikes; expectations, wants and needs? Clinical practice (PhD or PsyD), teaching (PhD or PsyD), research (mainly PhD, some PsyD), testing and assessment (PhD or PsyD)?

2. Have you spoken at length with practicing psychologists (e.g., neuropsychologists or psychodynamic-oriented psychotherapists) to gain realistic information to help you make an informed decision - that is, whether you truly want to pursue a new career before you invest your own money and valuable time into earning a new degree/credential that is required in a new career (e.g., assessment and testing or psychodynamic-oriented practice)?

Note: I realize you're soliciting information from different posters on SDN, and that's a good idea. You can obtain a lot of feedback from these posters. I don't live in Chicago, so I don't know what's happening in Chicago. I will only make some comments based on my own perspective.

As you probably already know: to become a neuropsychologist (assessment and testing), you will be required to complete a doctoral degree education, plus a certain amount of supervised "hours," followed by a two-year fellowship in neuropsychology. I have worked with PhD and PsyD neuropsychologists. Some of them graduated from professional psychology schools and eventually decided to pursue a full scientist-practitioner model of training. For the record, I have been very impressed with the consistent quality of their work - and they have earned my respect, as well as the respect of my colleagues. On the other hand, psychoanalytic certification (which will provide you with more psychodynamic-oriented training) will require at least five-or-six years of education, plus a personal analysis, etc. Both types of graduate programs (depending on the degree-granting program itself) can be very costly and time-consuming, as a general rule. So, choose wisely, based on your foreseeable career goals.

Finally, I respectfully concur with @WisNeuro, @CheetahGirl, @DynamicDidactic and some of the other posters above concerning the financial aspects associated with making an important career decision at this stage in your life/career. It is advisable to fully understand the business economics associated with different types of professional practices (e.g., assessment and testing and/or psychodynamic practice). Most doctoral-level therapists need to be fiscally savvy in connection with a cost-benefit-risk-analysis of their professional career choices because money does not grow on trees (nor on the websites of insurance carriers); and many potential patients (i.e., consumers) prefer purchasing ten flavorful Starbucks lattes each week than paying an hourly fee to a therapist. So, try to invest in yourself first before investing a large sum of money elsewhere ... so that your capital investment and prospects for appreciation/growth remain within your reasonable control. Just saying.

Thank you.

 

[Sendtrees]

I can't believe this forum has already produced this advice, but...you might want to consider psychoanalytic training. If your degree allows you to practice as a psychoanalyst (if not now, then when you have sufficient hours), it might be a better investment than a PsyD. I think it would almost certainly be a better personal investment, but even professionally: there are way more PsyDs than psychoanalysts these days. Even people who aren't looking for psychoanalysis might still want a psychoanalytically trained therapist. In fact, people often want this. And needing to stay in Chicago would be a plus, not a negative. You wouldn't lose out on several years of earning power, because you could work while you were a candidate. The downside would be losing the assessment portion--it's for you to determine whether that's a worthwhile trade. Lucky you--two choices that are usually financially suicidal are now possible!

 

[deleted760483]

Here's my take as a PsyD grad: The tuition cost comparison is apples to oranges. When you attend a fully funded program you work for your stipend. It's not free education, you work for the school and they pay you in education. You can accomplish the same thing in unfunded PsyD programs by setting up your own employment opportunities, which actually gives you more freedom in the kind of work you do. For example, I worked between part time and full time at two private practices doing individual and group psychotherapy and some assessment while getting my PsyD, with the exception of the 18 months of practicum training. I made enough to cover my tuition plus a little more and graduated with 4 years of invaluable clinical experience a lot of new grads don't have. The job I landed following post-doc and licensure required 5 years therapy experience that I wouldn't have had if I had been doing research.

 

[WisNeuro]

for my TA job in grad school, I worked about 10 hours a week. For that 10 hours a week, I received full tuition remission and 16k/9 months. That's a pretty good paying job. Also had time to work as a clinical tester for an Alzheimer's project for some extra cash. Not sure it's all that much apples to oranges. Especially with the average tuition costs out there. There may be outliers, but the majority are walking away with crushing debt.

 

[cara susanna]

I think that investing that money, even conservative investments, would get you more in the long term.

 

[deleted760483]

for my TA job in grad school, I worked about 10 hours a week. For that 10 hours a week, I received full tuition remission and 16k/9 months. That's a pretty good paying job. Also had time to work as a clinical tester for an Alzheimer's project for some extra cash. Not sure it's all that much apples to oranges. Especially with the average tuition costs out there. There may be outliers, but the majority are walking away with crushing debt.

People walk away with crushing debt because they don't work in school, which is silly. Grad school isn't that hard. I was working 30 hours a week and making about 50k/year which as I said more than covered tuition and even gave me enough to stash away for my unpaid practica. I graduated with no debt and got a head start in my career. It's honestly not that hard to do. I cannot wrap my head around people who are graduating with like 150k+ in debt, they must have never worked at all for the duration of grad school. What the heck were they doing all day? I still had plenty of free time on that schedule.

 

[deleted760483]

I say it's apples to oranges because people always compare funded PhD programs to graduating with 100K+ of debt, which means you are working in one scenario and not working in another scenario. That's not a valid comparison in my mind.

 

[WisNeuro]

I say it's apples to oranges because people always compare funded PhD programs to graduating with 100K+ of debt, which means you are working in one scenario and not working in another scenario. That's not a valid comparison in my mind.

The reality is, though, that one can work in many funded programs and occur minimal to no debt without having an extramural job at all, focusing instead on training.

 

[Doctor-S]

You can accomplish the same thing in unfunded PsyD programs by setting up your own employment opportunities, which actually gives you more freedom in the kind of work you do. For example, I worked between part time and full time at two private practices doing individual and group psychotherapy and some assessment while getting my PsyD, with the exception of the 18 months of practicum training. I made enough to cover my tuition plus a little more and graduated with 4 years of invaluable clinical experience a lot of new grads don't have. The job I landed following post-doc and licensure required 5 years therapy experience that I wouldn't have had if I had been doing research.

I appreciated @CWard12213's comments because it sounded as if he acquired plenty of valuable supervised clinical experience, as well as invaluable business experience. In this modern era of accounts receivable, accounts payable, overhead, documentation, net income, insurance, etc., it is useful for individuals who are practicing psychology (or medicine, dentistry, veterinary medicine, etc.) to develop, implement and integrate key "business" skills into their professional careers - especially if the professional chooses to maintain a private clinical practice in one of these fields.

 

[Pragma]

It really depends to some extent what kind of a job that you can get and how much time you can dedicate to working. I went to a fully-funded program and this did limit any potential side income I could earn, but tuition was paid for and I was still paid. It was a pretty decent paying job considering those things.

I think looking at the APPIC statistics helps with the reality check here - the modal Psy.D. student is still taking out massive debt. Between practica and courses, even with flexible scheduling, I find it hard to believe that someone could work full time very easily, and they would also need to find work that is flexible enough to accommodate changing schedules. I'm sure some folks come in with some experience or live in an area where flexible, reasonably-paying jobs are abundant and cost-of-living is low, but that does not seem typical from my own experience working with Psy.D. students (in a higher cost-of-living city).

"Grad school is not that hard" might be true for some programs, but not any quality program that I am aware of.

 

[deleted760483]

The reality is, though, that one can work in many funded programs and occur minimal to no debt without having an extramural job at all, focusing instead on training.

I don't totally understand the distinction you are making between job and training. My job was to perform the same services I would eventually perform as a licensed psychologist, but under supervision. I cannot imagine a better training opportunity than that. I would estimate 80% of what I do at my current job was learned from my previous jobs and my post-doc, and the remaining 20% from my formal training (classes, practica, pre-doctoral internship). This includes, as Doctor S said, virtually everything on the business side of things. My program (I think like most programs) did not have a course on tasks like insurance authorizations, treatment plans, and clinical charting. I learned most of this, too, from working my paid jobs.

 

[deleted760483]

It really depends to some extent what kind of a job that you can get and how much time you can dedicate to working. I went to a fully-funded program and this did limit any potential side income I could earn, but tuition was paid for and I was still paid. It was a pretty decent paying job considering those things.

I think looking at the APPIC statistics helps with the reality check here - the modal Psy.D. student is still taking out massive debt. Between practica and courses, even with flexible scheduling, I find it hard to believe that someone could work full time very easily, and they would also need to find work that is flexible enough to accommodate changing schedules. I'm sure some folks come in with some experience or live in an area where flexible, reasonably-paying jobs are abundant and cost-of-living is low, but that does not seem typical from my own experience working with Psy.D. students (in a higher cost-of-living city).

"Grad school is not that hard" might be true for some programs, but not any quality program that I am aware of.

I can only speak to my experience at one particular PsyD program, but I was "strongly discouraged" from working for the duration of my program, and maybe a large number of students follow this advice without questioning it. I had starting working in the summer before courses started and decided to just try to keep working 30 hours a week and see how it went. I had 12-15 hours of class per week and about 15 hours of coursework a week, counting tasks like working on my CRP. So I was working 60 hour weeks, which I recognize some people might not be able to do. I had no children at the time so I was able to do it easily. If I had children, as I do now, there is no way that would have been feasible. I lived in the Twin Cities suburbs which is probably a low cost of living area compared to most larger cities, so I imagine that does make a difference. I had been working and living in a townhouse for the 6 years of college prior to starting my PsyD (I came in with a masters) so I also had some money in the bank when I sold that to move, which helped. When we moved we took out a 30 year loan on a small, older townhouse because it was actually cheaper than rent in any decent place we could find.

I guess in summary, what I did required a few specifics that may not apply to some, but I don't feel like it was some unique path most people would be unable to take.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't totally understand the distinction you are making between job and training. My job was to perform the same services I would eventually perform as a licensed psychologist, but under supervision.

I think the distinction is that these opportunities will be open to very few people. Not everyone in a program will have this, especially in programs admitting more than 50 people in a cohort. Heck, these opportunities aren't available in areas with only a few PhD programs that admit only 5-7 people a cohort. Only so many clinically related jobs to go around.

 

[deleted760483]

I think the distinction is that these opportunities will be open to very few people. Not everyone in a program will have this, especially in programs admitting more than 50 people in a cohort. Heck, these opportunities aren't available in areas with only a few PhD programs that admit only 5-7 people a cohort. Only so many clinically related jobs to go around.

Maybe it's regional. There were always numerous positions available where I lived. My particular position started as an unpaid training experience but I was able to negotiate it into a paid training experience within 3 months. If, as others have suggested, most PsyD students don't work while they are in school I don't see why the number of students in the program would matter since they would not be competing for positions.

I know several people that were offered paid training positions at their practicum sites after completing their practica. Many took these opportunities. Maybe my cohort was weird.

 

[Pragma]

I had starting working in the summer before courses started and decided to just try to keep working 30 hours a week and see how it went.

I think the distinction is that these opportunities will be open to very few people

I would agree that finding a clinical job that will pay you 50K per year for 30 hours per week as an unlicensed clinical psychology graduate student would put someone in the "outlier" category. The more power to you CWard, but I have a hard time thinking that opportunity is common.

I worked plenty of 60-80 hour weeks myself - as do some of the PsyD students that I've worked with. But make no mistake - the typical schedule for them is probably comparable to what you already have listed for coursework (25-30 hours?), plus 20 hours per week for practicum, plus what some of them add in as supplemental practica (usually 8 hours per week). So they are already at 45-60 hours per week before they have even taken a paying job - and many of them do take jobs that offer enough flexibility to accommodate their schedules (usually lower paying).

This is what I would attribute the debt to - not them simply taking the advice to not work outside of the program. A lack of opportunities to be paid much when working around a busy schedule.

Side comment: Yes, supplemental practica are a thing now. They seem to be common in my area as a means for Psy.D. students to try to make themselves more competitive by getting additional specialty experiences as well as generating more hours for internship. I had never heard of such a thing in my program, and working TWO unpaid practica seems like it would be hard to stomach if you ask me.

 

[Pragma]

If, as others have suggested, most PsyD students don't work while they are in school I don't see why the number of students in the program would matter since they would not be competing for positions.

Actually, I have not met a PsyD student in my area that does not work outside of school in my area (based on ones I have supervised). So I suggest the opposite - most probably do work outside of school out of necessity, and there is stiff competition for decent-paying clinical jobs in my city. The ones that I know get somewhat low-paying part time gigs either in relevant areas (e.g., paid technicians) or outside of the industry (restaurants, etc). The clinically relevant positions are in high demand so the pay is relatively low.

 

[deleted760483]

I would agree that finding a clinical job that will pay you 50K per year for 30 hours per week as an unlicensed clinical psychology graduate student would put someone in the "outlier" category. The more power to you CWard, but I have a hard time thinking that opportunity is common.

I worked plenty of 60-80 hour weeks myself - as do some of the PsyD students that I've worked with. But make no mistake - the typical schedule for them is probably comparable to what you already have listed for coursework (25-30 hours?), plus 20 hours per week for practicum, plus what some of them add in as supplemental practica (usually 8 hours per week). So they are already at 45-60 hours per week before they have even taken a paying job - and many of them do take jobs that offer enough flexibility to accommodate their schedules (usually lower paying).

This is what I would attribute the debt to - not them simply taking the advice to not work outside of the program. A lack of opportunities to be paid much when working around a busy schedule.

Side comment: Yes, supplemental practica are a thing now. They seem to be common in my area as a means for Psy.D. students to try to make themselves more competitive by getting additional specialty experiences as well as generating more hours for internship. I had never heard of such a thing in my program, and working TWO unpaid practica seems like it would be hard to stomach if you ask me.

Our formal practica was only a total of 18 months (9 months assessment, 9 months therapy). It sounds like other programs may require more, so perhaps that's part of why I was able to do what I did. Maybe it was a very fortunate situation for me. I can only compare it to others in my cohort. A few of them worked with me and made similar salaries. A few worked at other agencies, I couldn't tell you what they made but they seemed to be doing OK. There were some that did not work, which appeared to be of their own choosing. I can't remember hearing anyone express a desire to work but an inability to find paid employment in our field.

My 50K/year figure was including calculation of insurance benefits for me and my spouse (who was also in graduate school), which was almost completely paid for by my job and otherwise would have needed to be purchased out of pocket. I wasn't actually taking home 50k/year, it was just under 40 in terms of my actual salary.

 

[Pragma]

Our formal practica was only a total of 18 months (9 months assessment, 9 months therapy).

Yeah that sounds very different than what I have seen. It is common for students to do FOUR 12-month practica (16-20 hours per week) in my area. Some of us get away with only doing three of those practica years and going on internship, but the additional practicum year is more the rule than the exception.

 

[deleted760483]

Yeah that sounds very different than what I have seen. It is common for students to do FOUR 12-month practica in my area (some of us get away with doing only 3).

Wow. OK, that explains a lot of the discrepancy between our perspectives then. That is why I always found it baffling that my program told us not to work, because you end up with almost 2 and a half years of time when you are doing nothing but taking classes.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Side comment: Yes, supplemental practica are a thing now. They seem to be common in my area as a means for Psy.D. students to try to make themselves more competitive by getting additional specialty experiences as well as generating more hours for internship. I had never heard of such a thing in my program, and working TWO unpaid practica seems like it would be hard to stomach if you ask me.

It's an unfortunately consequence of the match shortcomings. What is most frustrating (from the outside looking in) is the uncompensated aspect of the "training." It is much easier to fall into a sweat-shop setup than it is a true training opportunity when there are so many desperate students looking to gain more experience prior to internship. There is definitely something to be said about quality over quantity, but that is harder to discern when review CVs.

As for working while in grad school….it can happen at varying degrees, but it is far from easy and the "average" job is probably bartender money ($15-$25/hr?) and not white collar salary money. I did a bit of consulting (utilizing my prior career training and experience) during my grad school training, but I was definitely an outlier in that regard and it was difficult to find steady work within the restricted time I had available. It was difficult to charge what I did and put restrictions on my availability, so cherry-picking opportunities and trying to stretch out the money was the best I could do at the time.

The more consistent jobs were RA/TA, research coordinator, psych tech, etc…$12-$15/hr. I was able to avoid taking loans in my 4th and 5th years (while living in a very high cost of living city), but it wasn't easy. Many people frame getting a full tuition waiver and RA/TA'ship as the "ideal", but really it should be the goal because going into massive debt sucks and trying to scratch by sucks (AND can negatively impact your training opportunities/experiences).

The silver lining…going through all of that (particularly a trial by fire fellowship) made me greatly appreciate finally getting fully licensed and working a real job. The flexibility, benefits, and $…on some days it was almost worth it. 😉

 

[deleted760483]

As for working while in grad school….it can happen at varying degrees, but it is far from easy and the "average" job is probably bartender money ($15-$25/hr?) and not white collar salary money.

Right, but that's really all you need to functionally have a "fully funded" PsyD program. If you can make somewhere in this range and work 20-30 hours a week you should be able to pay your tuition.

 

[Pragma]

Right, but that's really all you need to functionally have a "fully funded" PsyD program. If you can make somewhere in this range and work 20-30 hours a week you should be able to pay your tuition.

$20/hour X 30 hours per week = $30K annually, before taxes. Don't some programs cost that much in tuition per year? Then what do you live on? All of that assuming that you have the time to work a job that pays $20/hour for 30 hours per week.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah that sounds very different than what I have seen. It is common for students to do FOUR 12-month practica (16-20 hours per week) in my area. Some of us get away with only doing three of those practica years and going on internship, but the additional practicum year is more the rule than the exception.

Wow…a lot has changed since I was in school. I think our "standard" was 3 practica (2nd, 3rd, 4th years…5th year if ppl stayed was a mix of teaching/researching/practica). We did a pre-prac, which was much more like shadowing and getting the basics of the school clinic down at the end of the first year.

Pre-prac: 5-10hr/wk
2nd year: 12-15hr/wk
3rd year: 15-20hr/wk
4th year: 15-20hr/wk*

*some paid, most unpaid, and some people found paying clinical gigs but couldn't count the hours)

I wouldn't want to go through training right now, it seems to be an even tougher experience.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Right, but that's really all you need to functionally have a "fully funded" PsyD program. If you can make somewhere in this range and work 20-30 hours a week you should be able to pay your tuition.

I don't think your math checks out. Tuition is nuts at most programs, which makes the tuition waiver that much more valuable. For instance, when I started in 2004 tuition was ~$625/credit. Twelve years later and with crazy inflation of costs…tuition at many places is $1000/credit. Besides that being nuts, that isn't tenable with "side job" money. Even at $50k/yr that isn't possible once you factor in fees, living expenses, etc. It may be different for a two income household with some savings, etc…but many students don't have that luxury.

 

[WisNeuro]

$20/hour X 30 hours per week = $30K annually, before taxes. Don't some programs cost that much in tuition per year? Then what do you live on? All of that assuming that you have the time to work a job that pays $20/hour for 30 hours per week.

I think many programs cost much more than that a year.

 

[Pragma]

Wow…a lot has changed since I was in school. I think our "standard" was 3 practica (2nd, 3rd, 4th years…5th year if ppl stayed was a mix of teaching/researching/practica). We did a pre-prac, which was much more like shadowing and getting the basics of the school clinic down at the end of the first year.

Pre-prac: 5-10hr/wk
2nd year: 12-15hr/wk
3rd year: 15-20hr/wk
4th year: 15-20hr/wk*

*some paid, most unpaid, and some people found paying clinical gigs but couldn't count the hours)

I wouldn't want to go through training right now, it seems to be an even tougher experience.

I know that there are some regional differences, and just as a disclaimer, I am in a saturated city with multiple graduate programs. So I would imagine that what we see here might be on the higher end of number of hours.

I work at a respected clinical site and our practica are all 20 hours per week. Students also frequently will pick up another 8 hours per week getting other experiences in a specialty (as mentioned before). I know that there are programs that mandate an additional year - although maybe I misstated things when I indicated that it had to be a practicum - I just have seen people do that a lot. That 4th year of clinical work could be variable - my Ph.D. colleagues sometimes took a 4th practicum, sometimes did part time paid clinical work, or other options while completing dissertations.

From what I can tell, the plan is usually to just have 3 years of practicum for local Psy.D. students, but in order to be competitive for internship, a high number take 4 - or try to cram in a ton of supplemental practicum hours during their 3. There was much less of an emphasis on hours in my program at the time I went - I only began to see how much it is emphasized now that I have supervised students from other programs in the area. It's a simple discrepancy between programs that have high match rates and those that don't.

From a developmental perspective, I can see how some students might benefit from an extra year if they are wanting to get a particularly specialty experience or if they need more time to accomplish research goals. But when a program is profiting from them taking additional time and supplemental experiences through registration and supervision fees, it sure makes the practice shady. We can blame the internship crisis all we want, but programs are squeezing more money out of students and sites are getting more free labor, despite the fact that we are seeing the match percentages increase year over year.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I worked a lot during my doctoral program, but I still would have been way better off going to a fully funded program with a stipend because all of the income opportunity that I had during the non-funded program would still have been available plus I wouldn't have had to pay the 20k per year in tuition. I agree with your premise that it is not so black and white as "all PsyD students take on huge debt and PhD students don't". I almost feel like we are having the discussion I always have with undergrads in Intro to Psych about the properties of the standard distribution and group differences when I use the example of men are bigger than women. Indignant undergrad blurts, "But Dr. Smalltown, I know lots of women who are bigger than lots of men!"

 

[Justanothergrad]

Right, but that's really all you need to functionally have a "fully funded" PsyD program. If you can make somewhere in this range and work 20-30 hours a week you should be able to pay your tuition.

Tuition for one credit hour (after fees) out of state costs about 1000 at my institution (R1 PhD) if you are out of state (which you will be). I got curious and pulled numbers one of the PsyD programs that sucker people into the higher debts: Argosy (Atlanta) : 6.5 years to complete training at 33k per year (1,162 per credit hour, with another 200-300 or so added in fees). That's ignoring book costs which they estimate at another 1600 a year. Even at 50k (gross, lets assume no taxes come out) you're going to be sitting at not a ton of money left to pay living expenses, much less put away savings. That's a hard sell to think that's reasonable since the average starting salary for a post-bach in psych is FAR below what you would need to pull that off (50 would need about ~35/hour for 30 hours a week). Its possible to do that, but it's not likely. Its possible I finally get cold called to play for the warriors too.... but you know

Pragma: I think you hit it on the head with the rising costs for tuition. Combined with the removal of the lower-rate loans in 2012, grads are facing a substantially costlier startup without the strong opportunity to investment in their retirement accounts. I don't think this is purely a PsyD problem since there are tons of partially funded PhD programs (especially with the state of budgets in many states), but PsyD definitely are the standouts as 'most' problematic.

 

[deleted760483]

The math will be different depending on where you go, cost of living, job availability, etc. It may not be feasible for many, even most, PsyD students to graduate with no debt. I still think it's a bit ridiculous that people are graduating with 150K+ in debt from these schools though, that's essentially the total cost of the program which means they had no income for 5 years. If you aren't working for the school to get a stipend there's no reason to not be working AT LEAST during your non-practica years (of which some PsyD programs have 2-3). That's why those figures thrown around bothers me so much, which was my original point before I diverged too much into my own personal experience. Even factoring in all of the valid points others have raised it should be possible for most PsyD students to have below 6 figures of debt upon graduation, barring some particular circumstances like being a single parent. There were members of my cohort who chose not to work and they do have massive debt, but that doesn't have to e everybody's experience.

 

[LETSGONYR]

I'm just confused how part-time clinical work for an unlicensed graduate student pays 50k. From my experience, most full-time postdoc positions pay less than that. Not saying that those positions don't exist, but I'd assume they're very few and far between.

EDIT: whoops, finished reading the thread, feels like this comment isn't that relevant or applicable anymore. Oh well.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

 

[ClinicalABA]

Right, but that's really all you need to functionally have a "fully funded" PsyD program. If you can make somewhere in this range and work 20-30 hours a week you should be able to pay your tuition.

I would struggle (and most likely fail) to pay tuition (let's say 30k) at a non funded program with my current salary as a practicing psychologist, let alone through a part time job making 20 bucks an hour. That would be more than 30% of my take home pay. Even with some major belt tightening, the mat doesn't seem to work out.

As an aside- I propose that when we cite typical debt here, we start adding in actual repayment costs to better illustrate the impact of compound interest. For example, 150k comes up often as a typical debt load. Assuming 20 year repay at 6%, lets start
saying "$150000 ($258000 actual repayment amount)" instead of just "150000." Alternatively, we could say "$150000 ($1075/month for 20 years)." A little more cumbersome to type, but maybe a little more honest.

 

[entitlement]

The math will be different depending on where you go, cost of living, job availability, etc. It may not be feasible for many, even most, PsyD students to graduate with no debt. I still think it's a bit ridiculous that people are graduating with 150K+ in debt from these schools though, that's essentially the total cost of the program which means they had no income for 5 years. If you aren't working for the school to get a stipend there's no reason to not be working AT LEAST during your non-practica years (of which some PsyD programs have 2-3). That's why those figures thrown around bothers me so much, which was my original point before I diverged too much into my own personal experience. Even factoring in all of the valid points others have raised it should be possible for most PsyD students to have below 6 figures of debt upon graduation, barring some particular circumstances like being a single parent. There were members of my cohort who chose not to work and they do have massive debt, but that doesn't have to e everybody's experience.

I'm not sure it is that ridiculous to graduate $150k in debt and I wouldn't be surprised if many of those students did, in fact, work during their degrees. Let's say you complete a PsyD in five years, that comes out to an average of $30k a year in debt which is roughly the annual tuition (including books and fees) for the PsyD programs I am most familiar with (although I do know a good amount with tuition much higher than that). So using your salary figure of $40k, which I am assuming was before taxes, your net income for the year was actually closer to $30k, which just happens to be the cost of tuition. So what do you live on? Even in the suburbs of the Twin Cities which is insanely cheap rent compared to metropolitan areas on the east and west coasts, as well as other midwestern cities like Chicago/St Louis, you are gonna need at least $25-30k a year to live (somewhat) comfortably on your own (and I am being very liberal here), so you are now taking out $30k/yr in loans. Grand total five years later, $125k-$150k in loans.

I get your sentiments, especially as someone who was told not to work in his grad program (PhD) but did anyway to make some extra money on the side because a $20k stipend per year was definitely not cutting it for me and I did not want to take out more than $10k in loans per year. Also note, I came in with a Master's so it was easy for me to make decent money on the side as a psychometrician, consultant, etc., this will not be easy for everyone, and especially not easy for those younger folks just coming out of college. However, I think your narrative is a dangerous one and I've seen one too many students fall into that trap, i.e., thinking they can work enough hours to make enough money to pay for their PsyD. I've yet to see one successfully do that, and actually, I've seen more than one drop out after the first year due to financial issues.

On a related note, good luck finding a paid clinical position in California without having a doctoral degree (psyc assistant) or a license (LPC/LMFT/LCSW).

 

[PreDrANB]

Northwestern, Loyola, DePaul, UIC are probably better options in that they are fully funded and have better reputations in the area. I believe Roosevelt and IIT will cost you.

Is Northwestern fully funded? My understanding was that it is partially funded.

 

[WisNeuro]

Depends on which Northwestern program, the WCAS-Northwestern program is fully funded.

 

[psych.meout]

Is Northwestern fully funded? My understanding was that it is partially funded.

Northwestern has two clinical psychology programs. The one at their main campus in Evanston alluded to by WisNeuro is fully funded, but the one in Chicago based out of the Feinberg Medical School is not. The latter is partially funded, though some students receive full funding depending on their lab and other factors. I recall looking at the program a year or two ago and their website listed an average indebtedness of $60,000 for graduates of the program. Keep in mind that this is a mean, so we need a better look at the actual data and distribution to get a better idea of the typical indebtedness of graduates.