Save Me from PBL!

[RaaMD]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

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[psipsina]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

I go to a lecture based school and honestly we self teach almost everything anyway. Even if they do lecture on the topic, which is rare amogst all the topics we are considered responsible for, they don't go into the depth you are responsible for. Like in the past two weeks I've had gross anatomy lectures on intro to head and neck which had some brief general stuff about CN VII and CN V and then one detailed lecture on the Mm of mastication and V3, but we've been responsible for the skull, the scalp, the Mm of facial expression & parotid gland, the meninges and brain, and the temporal region, so we're doin it on our own too. If I were you I would talk to someone in your faculty/administration who seems like they may be helpful, maybe the dean of student affairs . . . I'm sure other kids have had second thoughts about PBL and they may have some advice on how to make it more productive for you. My understanding of transferring is that its not really an option until after second year unless its for bigger reasons than "turns out I don't like PBL".

 

[Gut Shot]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

This thread should be stickied.

There are five steps in becoming accustomed to PBL:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Sounds like you're somewhere in 2-4. My advice is to keep trudging along. Eventually the Hell you are in will become comical. It sucks, but dropping out and reapplying would be insane. Several of my colleagues went to a particular all-PBL school. They each hated the curriculum, but they nonetheless turned out just fine. If you're worried about Step 1, purchase a copy of First Aid and use it for bathroom reading.

 

[CCLCMer]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

I'm an M1 at a heavily PBL-based school also. We actually don't have any lectures at all, although we do have seminars and labs. We started out by doing group problem solving sessions back in July, and we've now graduated into doing full-blown PBL. I think there is a pretty steep learning curve at the beginning for a lot of reasons, one of the biggest of which is that you're just not used to learning this way. I mean, in order to get into med school in the first place, you had to earn great grades in a traditional lecture-based curriculum where people told you exactly what to learn, right? So now all of a sudden if you're thrown into an environment like this where you're suddenly responsible for identifying your own learning objectives, it can be kind of overwhelming at first. But the good news is that it does get easier over time. I'm working with my second group now (we change groups every three months here), and we had a MUCH smoother start this block than my PSS group from the summer did. There are definitely some students who still wish we could have lectures and be told what to do, and there are times when I feel kind of anxious about the open-endedness of our curriculum too. But overall, I think that the PBL curriculum is a positive, because when you get out of med school, no one is going to hand you a packet of lecture notes to memorize for your next test. PBL is harder at first because it's so much more trial and error, especially when you are learning how to do it. But as you get more experienced, you do get better at figuring out what you don't know and what you still need to learn.

I suggest that you start by talking to your facilitator about how you're feeling. I assume that you have a facilitator who is a faculty member (we do), and this person is there to help your group stay on track. At the end of each week, we all go through the objectives we were supposed to cover, and it turns out that my group actually did a pretty good job of getting to most of them. I think that this plus our facilitator's reassurance that we were learning what we needed to be learning helped us all feel less anxious. You should also talk to your group members about what you guys can do to make the PBL sessions better for everyone. Our group spends some time each week setting ground rules about things like how long each presenter can talk, figuring out how we are going to dole out the responsibilities fairly, and discussing how things went that session so that we can try to improve the group dynamics for future sessions. We're not a perfectly oiled machine, but we are definitely making progress.

I guess my last piece of advice to you would be to really try to get as much out of your PBL sessions as you can. You may wish that you had picked a different school (and there are times when I do, too!), but realistically the best thing to do now if you want to be a physician some day is to get through the next couple of years so that you don't have to sit out a year or even risk not getting admitted to another school. After next year, you will be on the wards, and none of this will even matter any more. Plus, people can and do succeed in PBL curriculums just like they can and do succeed in traditional curriculums. We just found out that the people in our first class, who are now all M3s, had a 100% first time pass rate on Step 1. The administration also told us that their Step 1 score average was higher than last year's national average, although they didn't tell us how much higher. My school does not teach to the boards AT ALL, plus it is a new program. But like Havarti said, even the first class came out fine in the end, and you are going to come out fine too.

Good luck with med school, and I hope that PBL starts going better for you.

-CCLCMer

 

[8744]

...I go to a lecture based school and honestly we self teach almost everything anyway.....

The operative concept being that we teach ourselves through independent study, not by forced attendence at PBL sessions.

I hate PBL with the burning fire of 1000 suns (to quote another SDN poster on a different thread). In fact, there are few things in life I have hated as much. PBL sessions were so boring that I skipped every one I possibly could.

Fortunately my school was almost all lecture-based (LSU-Shreveport) so it wasn't a big problem. Early in first year they had these two-hour-long sessions where we were supposed to integrate everything we had learned in the week. A high-minded concept and I'm sure it sounds good in the brochures but these usually devolved into a bunch of people sitting around with nothing to say while the moderator explained things. The moderator was to offer minimal input but this never happened.

The best way to teach the pre-clinical years is to decrease the number of lectures and give the students more time to study on their own. This is what happens unofficially anyways as a look at a half-filled lecture hall at any medical school should make obvious to the administration.

 

[8744]

Oh, and I agree that the OP just needs to tough it out.

Sorry. Transferring is very difficult.

 

[Callogician]

I enjoy my PBL program and feel confident in what I am learning. I don't know what to tell you guys.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

The best way to teach the pre-clinical years is to decrease the number of lectures and give the students more time to study on their own. This is what happens unofficially anyways as a look at a half-filled lecture hall at any medical school should make obvious to the administration.

This I agree with. At my school, it seems like some people are upset because we have low attendence for lectures, but I don't really see any way around that if the school has you in class/lab from 8 to 5 several days a week.

I was really interested in PBL when I was applying, but from the two sessions we've had of it at my school, I am so glad I didn't go to a PBL only school. The op gets no criticism from me for not doing his research because PBL sounds really cool in theory and probably seems wonderful when you sit in on sessions. In real life, it feels like a big waste of time.

Anyway, it's true that medical school is largely self-taught at all schools, so you probably can learn what you need to know for the boards by buying board review books and using them to supplement your PBL.

 

[Labslave]

My school employs very little PBL and I couldn't be happier about that (well, they could eliminate it entirely I guess). Those two hours/week in which we do have to endure it are the worst two hours of my week. Period. I avoided other more (supposedly) prestigious programs with PBL because I didn't want other students just as clueless as I am teaching me the material that's supposed to transform me into a physician in a super inefficient way (to those of you who think PBL is awesome: good for you - you're superheros).

To the OP: it's gonna' suck, but tough it out. You'll make it through like everyone else. Just make sure you're covering what you need to cover for the boards and get yourself a USMLE Step I prep book to start working through ASAP. Good luck!

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I'm glad you discovered PBL is such bull****. I'm hating it too. Some of my classmates know dick-all, and as you said, I'm really not comfortable learning medicine from them... unfortunately, with PBL, doing your hw for it sucks into any time you would have to look at a traditional textbook and learn. Fragmented learning just sucks, it seems like you don't get a full picture of anything really. AND, the worst part is idiot obnoxious classmates who throw out all sorts of crazy ideas for what could be causing a particular pathology and they're all wrong... and won't listen to others (or to reason for that matter).

 

[MossPoh]

Everyone hates PBL but the studies have shown that it is highly effective in the longrun. I think you guys got too used to traditional lecture based stuff....my undergraduate major has been PBL from day one so it is just what I'm used to. It has to be used in conjunction with lectures but you learn far more discovering and talking about it than sitting there.....yes it doesn't seem like it now but it does. just trust me. You probably won't notice until residency or so.lol

 

[lord_jeebus]

My school had only a few hours but I hated it so much I came up with a strategy.

1. Learn everything you need to know on your own. Don't trust any piece of information that doesn't come from someone with an MD or PhD (ie. a lecture or a book). Even if your facilitator corrects factual errors, he may not catch everything.

2. Focus on making good presentations of your share of the material. Keep things to the point and well-organized. Good presentation skills will help you beyond 2nd year, and will also help you learn the material.

3. Beyond that, participate only to the extent necessary to pass. Bring reading relevant to the topic and focus on that when others are talking.

This may not be the most respectful way to get through PBL, but what matters most is the quality of your learning.

 

[bluesdude]

Everyone hates PBL but the studies have shown that it is highly effective in the longrun.

Could you cite those studies?

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Could you cite those studies?

Yeah, seriously, I'd like to know too. And, no offense Mosspoh, but I'm not sure you realize the volume of information that one needs to take in in med school... before med school, I thought I realized how much it would be, but only during med school did I actually grasp the volume we're expected to know...

 

[Anka]

There's a reason didactics have been around for thousands of years (and you know how you know they've been around for thousands of years? because it's in GREEK... whereas PBL is an acronym for an english word). It's because it's a highly efficient way of transmitting a body of information. You'll learn to think from your residents once you have a basic fund of knowledge. PBL is just too much wanking. That said, the OP will probably have to tough it out. Just make sure you learn what you need to learn (board review books are helpful).

Anka

 

[Wizard of Oz]

I was really interested in PBL when I was applying, but from the two sessions we've had of it at my school, I am so glad I didn't go to a PBL only school. The op gets no criticism from me for not doing his research because PBL sounds really cool in theory and probably seems wonderful when you sit in on sessions. In real life, it feels like a big waste of time.

I agree completely.

I did some teaching at the undergraduate level, and I was sometimes forced to do PBL. The PBL stuff DID NOT WORK. Let me repeat this. PBL does not work. I don't care what anybody's research says. Maybe it works in elementary school, but it is no good when rote memory is required.

 

[Gut Shot]

Just keyword search PubMed for a fascinating journey into PBL's highly dubious literature.

From Adv Health Sci Educ Theory Pract. 2006. 11:349-63:

"A key principle in problem-based learning (PBL) is the student linking learning from different sources to enrich understanding."

 

[DragonWell]

Guess I'm in the minority here. My school's 95% PBL and I love it. We all agree lectures are a waste of time, but PBL is just enough group interaction and clinical relevance to keep me motivated and focused, while giving me the freedom to do the learning in the way that works best for me.

Personally, I think part of the reason people have problems with PBL is that they aren't used to being allowed to decide for themselves how to learn the material. People also aren't used to taking the initiative to find the resources they need to do it. For example, if you know that lecture is how you learn best, then search out some lectures (ie USMLE prep or on the web) and use them as an adjunct to your PBL books. I watch videos, listen to lectures, study in groups, read on my own...I just don't have to cut lecture to do it. There is nothing in PBL that says you can't use lecture as a learning tool, it's just that no one is dictating to you that this is the primary way you should be learning.

I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue.

It sounds like your walking in expecting to be taught the required material during PBL. We have PBL 6 hours a week - not even the most gifted professor could possibly teach us everything we need to know in that amount of time. At least at my school, PBL time is used to put the basic science we are learning into a clinical context, not to trudge through every step of glycolysis or review all the branches of the brachial plexus. We are pretty much expected to walk in knowing what we need to know, which pretty much means that most of the learning is happening independently or in small groups outside of PBL.

 

[78222]

I don't see the point in paying 20+k a year to have a medstudent teach you the material or even "teach yourself". I don't want to have to seek out the information myself, thats the point of having an organized education - someone who knows more should be able to tell you what you need to know.

I personally love my school's more traditional curriculum. At first I hated it because we have a good 35 hours of lecture a week. However, once you realize you dont have to go to lectures that you dont want to (which for me is almost all lectures) you realize you can just read the book, lecture notes, and syllabus.

 

[DragonWell]

I don't see the point in paying 20+k a year to have a medstudent teach you the material or even "teach yourself". I don't want to have to seek out the information myself, thats the point of having an organized education - someone who knows more should be able to tell you what you need to know.

I personally love my school's more traditional curriculum. At first I hated it because we have a good 35 hours of lecture a week. However, once you realize you dont have to go to lectures that you dont want to (which for me is almost all lectures) you realize you can just read the book, lecture notes, and syllabus.

If you don't go to lectures, then aren't you basically reading the book, lecture notes, and syllabus and teaching youself anyway? And paying 20+K to do it? Or do lecture based schools pro-rate tuition based on the number of lectures you attend? To each their own, if people are happy in lecture, more power to them. PBL works for some people, definitely not for all. It pays to choose wisely, or you're in for a long two years.

 

[RaaMD]

Thank you for the responses.

 

[NonTradMed]

I hate PBL as well. Lucky for me, it's only for a cope-out 'diagnosis' course that we have to do that. I don't learn anything there and I feel it is a wasted 4 hours. However, the small group of students in our school that does PBL-only also scores the highest in the class on their boards (not that much higher, but I think it's consistently higher than avg). The thing is, these kids chooses to do the PBL and presumably can transfer out. So I think PBL is good for some people but for most, it is a horrible way to learn. To the OP, just tough it out. Med school is almost impossible to transfer to and PBL students have not be shown to fail at a high rate, so just suck it up, and wait for clinicals to start.

 

[78222]

If you don't go to lectures, then aren't you basically reading the book, lecture notes, and syllabus and teaching youself anyway? And paying 20+K to do it? Or do lecture based schools pro-rate tuition based on the number of lectures you attend? To each their own, if people are happy in lecture, more power to them. PBL works for some people, definitely not for all. It pays to choose wisely, or you're in for a long two years.

I dont go to many lectures but I like the class notes system we have in place. Having classes means that they are organized so I know what I need to study.

 

[-Goose-]

I dont go to many lectures but I like the class notes system we have in place. Having classes means that they are organized so I know what I need to study.

Yea, but when they suck...

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Just keyword search PubMed for a fascinating journey into PBL's highly dubious literature.

From Adv Health Sci Educ Theory Pract. 2006. 11:349-63:

"A key principle in problem-based learning (PBL) is the student linking learning from different sources to enrich understanding."

Enrich != "build up in the first place". A mix with SOME pbl thrown in isn't bad and I get something out of it sometimes (though I still hate my classmates).

 

[ubcredfox]

Right now, PBL is sitll entertaining and I like it for the social factor - it's made better by the fact that I like the people in my group. Now, if i had a group from hell, my opinion would (and most certainly will) change.

From a learning standpoint, I get to enjoy 6 hours of PBL per week (bright and early from 8am!!!) for the next two years plus a 1 hour "Case Summary Lecture" - which i can see becoming a collective excruciating hell in the not too distant future.

I can spend eons researching pointless crap, so I've adopted a 2-hour max rule. The key to not having PBL destroy your sanity/study time is to limit your research time/research more effectively. I recommend MDconsult/FirstConsult/harrisons online/pubmed as a solid foundation.

I don't know how well i actually learn in PBL - actually probabley quite poorly - I learn much better actually researching the topic myself. They could just make me present weekly seminars - now that would be cool

 

[Gut Shot]

I get to enjoy 6 hours of PBL per week (bright and early from 8am!!!)

Six hours per week? That's only an hour and twelve minutes a day, M-F.

I hope to God you don't mean six hours per day. That's way too much small group wank time.

 

[njbmd]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

Get as much out of the PBL coursework as you can and learn the rest of the material on your own. I promise that even if you were sitting in a class, you would not be doing much "learning" and the actual "learning" starts when you get home or get to wherever you review and assimulate the material. There is nothing preventing your from collecting and learning the material on your own in spite of PBL or whatever else your school does to present the material.

When it came to USMLE Step I, Step II and Step III in addition to ABSITE (American Board of Surgery In-Training Exam), I still had to teach myself what I needed. My medical school provided a nice base but the actual learning was and IS incumbent upon me. In the long run, PBL may turn out to be more useful than you think especially when you are sitting in front of that computer terminal at the Prometric Center.

 

[StevenRF]

PBL is crap...

I think the reason why schools have it is the lack of actual truthful opinions of students. When you apply for med school, you have to bull**** your interviewers and essays on how you think PBL is the best thing ever and will make your education amazing. The administrations actually believe us unfortunately... The best part is when you hear about other pbl professors bad mouthing pbl cause they know its all BS too.

I'm still waiting for harvard to start the mime approach. I figure if we all get together in a large class of a 100 and act out the bio, we will get a more thorough understanding. F' harvard for starting this plague.... "We finally really did it! You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"

 

[DragonWell]

Get as much out of the PBL coursework as you can and learn the rest of the material on your own. I promise that even if you were sitting in a class, you would not be doing much "learning" and the actual "learning" starts when you get home or get to wherever you review and assimulate the material. There is nothing preventing your from collecting and learning the material on your own in spite of PBL or whatever else your school does to present the material.

When it came to USMLE Step I, Step II and Step III in addition to ABSITE (American Board of Surgery In-Training Exam), I still had to teach myself what I needed. My medical school provided a nice base but the actual learning was and IS incumbent upon me. In the long run, PBL may turn out to be more useful than you think especially when you are sitting in front of that computer terminal at the Prometric Center.

 

[8744]

PBL is crap...

I think the reason why schools have it is the lack of actual truthful opinions of students. When you apply for med school, you have to bull**** your interviewers and essays on how you think PBL is the best thing ever and will make your education amazing. The administrations actually believe us unfortunately... The best part is when you hear about other pbl professors bad mouthing pbl cause they know its all BS too.

I'm still waiting for harvard to start the mime approach. I figure if we all get together in a large class of a 100 and act out the bio, we will get a more thorough understanding. F' harvard for starting this plague.... "We finally really did it! You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"

Believe it or not, this is one of the finest posts on any subject I have ever read. It has everything: An obvious truth expressed simply, a succint description of a part of our lives, and a reference to Planet of the Apes, the Greatest Movie Ever Made.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

If you don't go to lectures, then aren't you basically reading the book, lecture notes, and syllabus and teaching youself anyway?

Yes, and the beauty of it is that I don't have to be there. When the school makes me participate in PBL garbage, they are subtracting from my study time.

Look, these PBL things are stupid. We study a vignette, then I or somebody else spells out what labs need to be ordered and what the diagnosis is. They give us too much information to actually make a detailed differential, and I would have learned more if they would have just mailed the material to Grey's Anatomy or ER and had real actors act it out with a little bit of hanky panky or gratuitous gore mixed in. They came up with this nonsense at Harvard? I thought that they were supposed to be hard-core memorizing gunners or something.

I assume that LECOM is a DO school--are they more likely to use this stuff in osteopathic education?

 

[Taurus]

I love lecture-based curriculums when the lectures are videostreamed, the videos can be downloaded to your computers, and you can plow through them at 2x. I go through 4-5 hours of lecture each day in like 2.5 hours. Just like specialties, choose your school wisely I guess.

 

[osjx-82]

which of the Texas schools have primarily lecture-based (traditional) curriculum?

 

[Ypo.]

This thread should be stickied.

There are five steps in becoming accustomed to PBL:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Sounds like you're somewhere in 2-4. My advice is to keep trudging along. Eventually the Hell you are in will become comical. It sucks, but dropping out and reapplying would be insane. Several of my colleagues went to a particular all-PBL school. They each hated the curriculum, but they nonetheless turned out just fine. If you're worried about Step 1, purchase a copy of First Aid and use it for bathroom reading.

Don't forget step 6: apathy.

 

[OddNath]

which of the Texas schools have primarily lecture-based (traditional) curriculum?

I guess I can speak for my school-- UT-H is mostly lecture-based. PBL is only during 2nd year, 2 hrs on M/W/F (though most groups get out early, so it's more like 3-4 hrs/wk). I've had good groups so far, so even when I'm not learning anything, I feel somewhat entertained.

 

[glick-nack]

My experience with PBL so far is that it sucks. But you can make it work if you just don't spend time on your homework and read a ton on your own.

 

[fakin' the funk]

I suggest that you start by talking to your facilitator about how you're feeling...We're not a perfectly oiled machine, but we are definitely making progress...I guess my last piece of advice to you would be to really try to get as much out of your PBL sessions as you can.

Wow, your unrealistically rosy portrait of solving the OP's problem with the ridiculous curriculum concept of PBL was really helpful!!!

The only thing that matters for Step 1, Step 2, and practice in the real world is "Do you know your s**t?" (oh, and can you stay up all night at least 2x a week?) Seriously, that's it. The problem with PBL is that it doesn't help you learn your s**t. Studying hard, and memorizing, from books, and in lab, repeatedly, hopefully with the assistance of a decent professor along the way, WILL help you learn your s**t.

All PBL's helped *me* do is differentiate the sanctimonious, the mute, and the questionably-admitted among my classmates.

 

[ubcredfox]

sanctimonious

sanc-ti-mo-ni-ous: –adjective 1. making a hypocritical show of religious devotion, piety, righteousness, etc.: They resented his sanctimonious comments on immorality in America.
2. Obsolete. holy; sacred.

Interesting, but seemingly improper word choice.

But, I agree with your opinion. STUDY STUDY STUDY. That's all you can do. You want to know it all, you gotta pull those hours. General internist here I come...

 

[Wizard of Oz]

PBL is just one of the things angering me about my school. Administrators tell us that there are these "advances in medical education" which include PBL, evidence-based medicine, integrated problem solving, and professionalism. It is such nonsense because we have these token exercises that represent this crap, but none of it really factors into our evaluation rubrics. It makes me effing sick. They don't honestly want to change anything about our traditional curriculum because the people in charge are very stubborn and old, nor do they care about any student who wants to make a life outside of the state. They just throw this garbage at us to make it look like we are an up-and-coming school to outsiders. So the end result is to design a schedule that decreases the time I have available to prepare for step 1.

If you are an administrator, take some advice. Make a set of encyclopedias for us to memorize over two years. Screw the books and powerpoints. If you want lectures, fine, just make sure that there isn't anything said that isn't in the encyclopedias. You can still include the phony clinical stuff separately if you want, but don't grade us on material that isn't pertinent to step 1. You can give us tests along the way, but leave us alone to learn this stuff if we want to be left alone.

 

[RaaMD]

Wow, your unrealistically rosy portrait of solving the OP's problem with the ridiculous curriculum concept of PBL was really helpful!!!

The only thing that matters for Step 1, Step 2, and practice in the real world is "Do you know your s**t?" (oh, and can you stay up all night at least 2x a week?) Seriously, that's it. The problem with PBL is that it doesn't help you learn your s**t. Studying hard, and memorizing, from books, and in lab, repeatedly, hopefully with the assistance of a decent professor along the way, WILL help you learn your s**t.

All PBL's helped *me* do is differentiate the sanctimonious, the mute, and the questionably-admitted among my classmates.

Your last paragraph cracked me up, LOL.

 

[dynx]

sanc-ti-mo-ni-ous: –adjective 1. making a hypocritical show of righteousness.

I don't know about improper word choices, this describes about half of my class...you know, the ones that fed african babies before starting med school. The ones that love PBL.

 

[Haversian Canal]

Hello Guys

It is really sad to read all these negative responses << at least


Its my first year at PBL school, (and since i had my premed in the lecturing system, i think i can compere between both)


Well, to be honest, i am having difficult times these days (having first units exam next week)specially in revising my learning need from all these resources ..

But in general, PBL is not such difficult thing to me!,
1.when you have the problem you have the study go read all the reading material you've been givin.. Yes it may take alot of time, but working on your critical reading skills "knowing how and what to read" wil reduce the amount of time -- its important to make yourself a deadline to finish the issue

2. attend all the resource sessions, "some call them lectures ",

3. make appointments!, i think that the great advantage in our school is that you can have appointments with the resource person "the doctor or the md" whenever you think you need help "and hence, private lectures on topics you choose "

4. study from different resources, whenever its difficult for me to understand the topic - i go websites with (Flash, SWF) movies that i can understand whats going on! whenever its difficult in anatomy go to cadaver, histology, microbiology or pathology do to lab and watch slides or try to do experiments. even in physical examination (examine your friends!!- history taking -- go to the nearby hospital and take histories!!)

5. if you have more time, you can go library read some of the test books "e.g. pre-test"

6. have fun ! Do sports, watch movies and go crazy wth friends ((i mean, if we think about it, we already lost about 1/3 of our life :") and we're not welling to lose the rest suffering)
<< remeber there is always enough time


Finally, i have alott of friends studying n lecturing medical schools, they say that they dont have enough time to scratch their head, in away they ONLY memorise fact but not THINK << and by this way they are going to forget everything eventually!

but if you're used to spoon-feed study, dont ruin yo0ur careers and get out of PBL

good luck all (and pary for me for the exam )

 

[Shredder]

I am a first year medical student at a US Allopathic school that uses PBL as it primary teaching modality. I thought that this would be an interesting way to learn medicine but have realized that it is a horrible waste of time and an inefficient method for learning medicine. Some would say I should have done more research before attending, but I believe you can only comprehend so much about how a system works until you are in the midst of it. It is hell. I never envisioned learning my basic sciences from a fellow medical student who most likely spent the night before sleep-deprived working on their learning issue. The worst are the obnoxious ones who love to hear themselves talk. It is not that I don't respect their intellectual ability, it is just that I would trust the information more coming from a lecture-based environment from someone who has their doctoral degree. I've contemplated withdrawing from the school and reapplying again. Is this crazy? Would anyone take me? I would even go to the Carribean or some other foreign medical school if it meant I would learn the material better. I know that the first thing that people might say would be that I would lack dedication to the degree. I'm so unhappy here, and don't feel confident at all about what I am learning. I mean learning issues presented to me from Wikipedia or seeing a student fumble through their presentation when a professor could have summed it up nicely. It's not that I'm any less interested in becoming a doctor, it's all I've ever wanted to do, it's just that it just feels so wrong learning it this way and I don't feel that I will at all be prepared for Step 1. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. Much thanks.

I'm noticing that "waste of time" and "inefficiency" are cropping up a lot among my peers on SDN. Clearly US Allo schools are fooling around too much and need reform. I go to a mid tier school and I figured we wouldn't have much BS, but we do. Strangely I find myself wondering if I should've gone somewhere worse sans frills and BS.

Btw social factor is what partying is for, not small groups/lecture or dissection. Better to split things into 100% work and 100% play instead of half-a$$ing both or hardly playing at all like some of my loser classmates

 

[CCLCMer]

Wow, your unrealistically rosy portrait of solving the OP's problem with the ridiculous curriculum concept of PBL was really helpful!!!

The only thing that matters for Step 1, Step 2, and practice in the real world is "Do you know your s**t?" (oh, and can you stay up all night at least 2x a week?) Seriously, that's it. The problem with PBL is that it doesn't help you learn your s**t. Studying hard, and memorizing, from books, and in lab, repeatedly, hopefully with the assistance of a decent professor along the way, WILL help you learn your s**t.

All PBL's helped *me* do is differentiate the sanctimonious, the mute, and the questionably-admitted among my classmates.

Look, dude, just because you don't agree with me about PBL doesn't mean that you have to be such a jerk about it. I'm sorry your PBL experiences sucked so much. Mine don't. Considering that the OP is at a PBL school and has no choice about whether to do PBL unless he drops out or tries to transfer, I don't think that YOUR post is particularly helpful in solving his problem. At least the people who commiserated about how PBL sucks, but told him to tough it out, were giving him advice that he can actually follow.

 

[zimmie256]

Get as much out of the PBL coursework as you can and learn the rest of the material on your own. I promise that even if you were sitting in a class, you would not be doing much "learning" and the actual "learning" starts when you get home or get to wherever you review and assimulate the material. There is nothing preventing your from collecting and learning the material on your own in spite of PBL or whatever else your school does to present the material.

When it came to USMLE Step I, Step II and Step III in addition to ABSITE (American Board of Surgery In-Training Exam), I still had to teach myself what I needed. My medical school provided a nice base but the actual learning was and IS incumbent upon me. In the long run, PBL may turn out to be more useful than you think especially when you are sitting in front of that computer terminal at the Prometric Center.

This is a bit off topic, but I'm currently trying to decide between med schools. I'm a bit baffled that some have you in class/lab basically 9-5 while others are maybe 3 hours of class per day. If it's true that most learning occurs outside class (regardless of PBL or lecture), then it seems like all-else-equal, the school with the least class time is the one to go with. It just seems bizarre that schools have such different amounts of class time if all are teaching essentially the same material. I find it hard to believe that being in class 8 hours a day (or watching lectures from home) doesn't cut down on the additional time you need to study, but what do I know... Anyone have any thoughts on these different class systems??

 

[78222]

This is a bit off topic, but I'm currently trying to decide between med schools. I'm a bit baffled that some have you in class/lab basically 9-5 while others are maybe 3 hours of class per day. If it's true that most learning occurs outside class (regardless of PBL or lecture), then it seems like all-else-equal, the school with the least class time is the one to go with. It just seems bizarre that schools have such different amounts of class time if all are teaching essentially the same material. I find it hard to believe that being in class 8 hours a day (or watching lectures from home) doesn't cut down on the additional time you need to study, but what do I know... Anyone have any thoughts on these different class systems??

Well, it seems that the classes with a lot of lecture hours are generally more traditional curriculums (which I think are 10X better). The schools with little lecture time will probably have more PBL stuff and "learn on your own" busywork. My advice would be to go to a school with traditional lectures and then just skip the lectures and study at home.

 

[8744]

Hello Guys

It is really sad to read all these negative responses << at least


Its my first year at PBL school, (and since i had my premed in the lecturing system, i think i can compere between both)


Well, to be honest, i am having difficult times these days (having first units exam next week)specially in revising my learning need from all these resources ..

But in general, PBL is not such difficult thing to me!,
1.when you have the problem you have the study go read all the reading material you've been givin.. Yes it may take alot of time, but working on your critical reading skills "knowing how and what to read" wil reduce the amount of time -- its important to make yourself a deadline to finish the issue

2. attend all the resource sessions, "some call them lectures ",

3. make appointments!, i think that the great advantage in our school is that you can have appointments with the resource person "the doctor or the md" whenever you think you need help "and hence, private lectures on topics you choose "

4. study from different resources, whenever its difficult for me to understand the topic - i go websites with (Flash, SWF) movies that i can understand whats going on! whenever its difficult in anatomy go to cadaver, histology, microbiology or pathology do to lab and watch slides or try to do experiments. even in physical examination (examine your friends!!- history taking -- go to the nearby hospital and take histories!!)

5. if you have more time, you can go library read some of the test books "e.g. pre-test"

6. have fun ! Do sports, watch movies and go crazy wth friends ((i mean, if we think about it, we already lost about 1/3 of our life :") and we're not welling to lose the rest suffering)
<< remeber there is always enough time


Finally, i have alott of friends studying n lecturing medical schools, they say that they dont have enough time to scratch their head, in away they ONLY memorise fact but not THINK << and by this way they are going to forget everything eventually!

but if you're used to spoon-feed study, dont ruin yo0ur careers and get out of PBL

good luck all (and pary for me for the exam )

There's the rub. Whenever anybody criticises PBL, its adherents become sanctimonious and acuse the critic of wanting to be "spoon fed" the material. as if only intellectual babies want to be lectured while the adults hash it out themselves.

I think what most of us who are against PBL really want is to be left alone. In other words, to have as little of our time wasted as is possible and to spend as few hours as possible as a captive audience to the rare student or professor who eats, breathes, sweats, and craps PBL. Studying is boring. Why prolong the agony? You're still going to have to study after sitting in a bogus PBL sessions.

I don't think it's spoon-feeding to be presented with a syllabus, a reading list, or a set of objectives and then working through them on your own. That's what we're paying for in first and second year. If I wanted a fellow student involved in my learning I'd make my tuition check out to him.

 

[Scottish Chap]

They came up with this nonsense at Harvard? I thought that they were supposed to be hard-core memorizing gunners or something.

No, McMaster University Medical School in Ontario was the original model that Harvard copied after they saw success. McMaster students have a curriculum that is entirely PBL-based. There are few formal lectures and no exams. There are no science prereq's and the MCAT is not required. According to Pubmed reports, the graduates from this 3-year M.D. do well in many branches of medicine.

 

[DoctorFunk]

No, McMaster University Medical School in Ontario was the original model that Harvard copied after they saw success. McMaster students have a curriculum that is entirely PBL-based. There are few formal lectures and no exams. There are no science prereq's and the MCAT is not required. According to Pubmed reports, the graduates from this 3-year M.D. do well in many branches of medicine.

Oh. So we can blame Canada for PBL? How appropriate.