Save Some Egos to Save My Career?

[LivingOffLoans]

I thought I might get more responses in the doctorate section, so I hope nobody minds that I am posting here. I figured this might be helpful for doctorate students as well.

Many other students, and some of my clinical supervisors, seem to feel threatened by me. I am able to demonstrate that I am well-versed in theory, and I have done what others have said is impressive clinical and academic work for my young career. I've noticed others often act very competitive in my presence, trying to one-up me in front of others and such. Does anyone else experience this? If so, how do you deal with it without coming across like a jerk if they already seem to not like you? I really value relationships, and I know it sounds silly, but it makes it harder for me to feel proud of my work when I have to deal with this kind of stuff. I do receive some support from others, but it is usually from people who are in other programs or do not work directly with me. Do I just need to learn how to kiss ass better to get ahead? That's almost what it feels like I have to do: save some egos to save my future career.

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[crim84]

It sounds like you are competitive and are possibly perceiving things in a competitive perspective.

 

[Sanman]

What makes you think that your clinical supervisors are threatened by you?

 

[LivingOffLoans]

I don't think I am being competitive. I do think I was hoping for a more collaborative profession where people are working together toward a common cause. Is there anything I can do to foster a community that reflects this more? or at least one where others want to work with me as opposed to seeing me as someone to compete with? I really do not like that. Sanman, I am not going into details, sorry. You never know who knows who around here.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I thought I might get more responses in the doctorate section, so I hope nobody minds that I am posting here. I figured this might be helpful for doctorate students as well.

Many other students, and some of my clinical supervisors, seem to feel threatened by me. I am able to demonstrate that I am well-versed in theory, and I have done what others have said is impressive clinical and academic work for my young career. I've noticed others often act very competitive in my presence, trying to one-up me in front of others and such. Does anyone else experience this? If so, how do you deal with it without coming across like a jerk if they already seem to not like you? I really value relationships, and I know it sounds silly, but it makes it harder for me to feel proud of my work when I have to deal with this kind of stuff. I do receive some support from others, but it is usually from people who are in other programs or do not work directly with me. Do I just need to learn how to kiss ass better to get ahead? That's almost what it feels like I have to do: save some egos to save my future career.

There is no way anybody here has enough info to give you any real solutions. I'd suggest you identify a supervisor and maybe another student who you feel respond this way to you, yet who you trust to be honest with you. Figure out a way to frame your above question in way that really seeks to identify what you need to do differently vs. what other people need to do differently (e.g. "what am I doing to come across this way?" vs. "why are you threatened by me?") . Then prepare yourself for some potentially difficult, but valuable feedback.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

There is no way anybody here has enough info to give you any real solutions. I'd suggest you identify a supervisor and maybe another student who you feel respond this way to you, yet who you trust to be honest with you. Figure out a way to frame your above question in way that really seeks to identify what you need to do differently vs. what other people need to do differently (e.g. "what am I doing to come across this way?" vs. "why are you threatened by me?") . Then prepare yourself for some potentially difficult, but valuable feedback.

Agreed. It's not always the case, but more often than not, we're (usually unknowingly) doing something that's contributing to the misperception. If it's only one or two people that feel this way about you (or any of us), it could just be that person's skewed take on things. But when it's "many other students" and perhaps even some supervisors, it suggests a pattern of behavior.

Not to be mean-spirited, but perhaps when "demonstrating that you're well-versed in theory," they think you're coming across as a know-it-all?

There may very occasionally, with some supervisors, be a need to play the teacher's pet role a bit. But in general, it's more just a matter of remaining congenial, civil, and (with supervisors) demonstrating some humility and a readiness to learn.

 

[erg923]

I would really doubt clinical supervisors feel "threatened" by you. However, it is possible they are reacting to you adversely in some manner, as there is nothing worse than a first year grad student who: shows off how much he/she thinks they know OR actually does know quit a bit, but then uses that poorly by being precieved as resistant to supervision or learning. This is not a an insult, I'm just saying its a possiblity. I was probably some of the former my first couple years.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

There are some horrendous, horrendous supervisors out there, especially at the master's level (which you imply is your perspective). I have seen several who freeze when asked for actual insight into the case, have horrible boundaries, try to psychoanalyze their supervisees as if they are doing therapy, and talk about their own cases with supervisees. I'm not sure that "threatened" is the right word, and it may come across as narcissistic to say that, but yes there are some screwy supervisors out there--many do not even get a smidgeon of training in supervision.

 

[aequitasveritas]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a thread devoted to terrible supervisors. In retrospect I can't believe I even sat in a room with one of them without calling the crisis line (for her).

It's of course hard to know what's really going on with the OP. It's possible that (s)he's obnoxiously pedantic; it's possible that he has faster cortical speed. It's also possible that the sup is an insecure douche. So I suspend judgement.

OP: you should not try to create optimal learning environments in sub-optimal settings. One thing I truly learned through training is that an analysis of the context is a must before an analysis of the self or other should occur. Example: I'm very psychodynamic, but other than for conceptualizing a patient's mind, in community mental health settings or inpatient wards it isn't of the greatest practical use so supervisors usually have little to offer me in those settings. Rather than wishing for more than a context can provide I simply decide to stop squeezing water from a stone. Try to evaluate whether your setting has practical need for your theoretical preponderances.

 

[penguinbean]

Ditto erg and AcronymAllergy's thoughts. I would be willing to be you are contributing to the stuation, and you may need to do some self-reflection to see what your role is. I doubt people are just reacting to you a certain way with no behaviors to react to...

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'm surprised we haven't seen a thread devoted to terrible supervisors. In retrospect I can't believe I even sat in a room with one of them without calling the crisis line (for her).

It's of course hard to know what's really going on with the OP. It's possible that (s)he's obnoxiously pedantic; it's possible that he has faster cortical speed. It's also possible that the sup is an insecure douche. So I suspend judgement.

OP: you should not try to create optimal learning environments in sub-optimal settings. One thing I truly learned through training is that an analysis of the context is a must before an analysis of the self or other should occur. Example: I'm very psychodynamic, but other than for conceptualizing a patient's mind, in community mental health settings or inpatient wards it isn't of the greatest practical use so supervisors usually have little to offer me in those settings. Rather than wishing for more than a context can provide I simply decide to stop squeezing water from a stone. Try to evaluate whether your setting has practical need for your theoretical preponderances.

This is PERFECT!! I'm having supervisor issues right now as well, so this really spoke to me, thank you. And, YES, let's start a thread about terrible supervisors--I was thinking of doing this as well, so I don't feel so isolated right now.

On another note, I am not psychodynamic but I always end up with supervisors who look at my clients through that (and only that) lens. So frustrating!!

 

[3rdWave]

You could try doing a detailed chain analysis each time this happens, and see if you can break the chain next time by doing something different.

Of course, you would need to describe objective observable behaviors by yourself and others, as well as your own thoughts and feelings, and stop relying on assumptions (e.g., they felt threatened) about what is going on with your colleagues and supervisors.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

I thought I might get more responses in the doctorate section, so I hope nobody minds that I am posting here. I figured this might be helpful for doctorate students as well.

Many other students, and some of my clinical supervisors, seem to feel threatened by me. I am able to demonstrate that I am well-versed in theory, and I have done what others have said is impressive clinical and academic work for my young career. I've noticed others often act very competitive in my presence, trying to one-up me in front of others and such. Does anyone else experience this? If so, how do you deal with it without coming across like a jerk if they already seem to not like you? I really value relationships, and I know it sounds silly, but it makes it harder for me to feel proud of my work when I have to deal with this kind of stuff. I do receive some support from others, but it is usually from people who are in other programs or do not work directly with me. Do I just need to learn how to kiss ass better to get ahead? That's almost what it feels like I have to do: save some egos to save my future career.

Sometimes, people do not like other people. Sometimes, there is no easily identifiable reason for this. (Sometimes there is.) What it comes down to is that what your supervisors think of you as a person, like if they like you or not, really matters in this field (at least in the training years, I can't speak for after that).

Of the supervisors that I have had, about half were the "let's get down to business, you're doing this well and this not well, and I base this on XYZ examples, so let's fix that," and the other half were, "I don't have anything bad to say about your work or skills but there's *something* that I can't put my finger on that makes me think [random and vague thing here, with no examples provided even when asked] and I don't know what to do about that." My husband, in a completely different field, literally laughs when he reads my supervisors' reviews of me because they are vague, meaningless (even when they're positively skewed), and seem to - transparently - reflect the supervisor's feelings toward me rather than any of my skill deficits or clinical strengths. One supervisor will say I'm great at X and the other will say I need to improve X, and it seems based solely on whether the supervisor likes me or not. This has been my experience. It has been very frustrating because I would love to know what I need to work on and be helped to improve but the feedback that I get is inconsistent and/or contradictory. When I've brought this up with supervisors, they seem to back away from it and say that they'll need to talk to each other or that I should talk to the other for clarification and then the other says they'll talk to each other and I don't end up getting feedback about it and I seem annoying when I keep asking if they've followed up or clarified. This direct contradiction and lack of clarification/followup has happened 1/3 of the times that I've gotten reviewed.

What it comes down to, in my experience, is that supervisors like fun/upbeat people who seem very eager to learn from the supervisor (especially about what the supervisor thinks is a particular strength of the supervisor's) and who can manage clients adequately. If you can pull it off, definitely kiss up. It will help you get ahead in the field. You'll be doing that for years to come. If you can't pull it off now, it only gets worse.

 

[wigflip]

It's been ages for me, but my social work prefector or whatever the heck they called him/her was okay, but it quickly became apparent that I should dumb it down and go limp to get through. After about the third or fourth time I'd brought up some concept that s/hed never heard of (but which, in my opinion, should have been common knowledge at the BA level), I realized that nobody wants to be reminded of what they don't know and just kept it simple and stuck with the wide-eyed eager beaver routine. The other person in my rotation was rigid and resistant and had a lot more trouble getting along--> got worse reviews than I did.

 

[wigflip]

What it comes down to, in my experience, is that supervisors like fun/upbeat people who seem very eager to learn from the supervisor

I think this is key. If they feel you're smarter than they are, they certainly don't want you to know it too or take pleasure in demonstrating it. I think sometimes the biggest thing you can learn from a prof or supervisor is simply a what-not-to-do list (for when you have the opportunity to teach/supervise). But on the other hand, chances are that there's something concrete for you to latch on to.

 

[O Gurl]

What it comes down to, in my experience, is that supervisors like fun/upbeat people who seem very eager to learn from the supervisor (especially about what the supervisor thinks is a particular strength of the supervisor's) and who can manage clients adequately. If you can pull it off, definitely kiss up. It will help you get ahead in the field. You'll be doing that for years to come. If you can't pull it off now, it only gets worse.

+1
I strongly agree with this statement. I am 2/3 through fellowship, and cannot wait to be done with some of the interpersonal dynamics of supervision. My training experiences have been generally postive across the board. However, there are just some supervisors who have quirks (like the rest of us) and areas of insecurity (like the rest of us) or think that their specific corner of psychology is the most awesomest thing EVER ... even when it is only midly interesting to me as a trainee. So one has to learn when to step back, evaluate what your training and career goals are, and act accordingly. Even if it means stroking an ego or two, this is often temporary. It is also a fact of life.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

If they feel you're smarter than they are, they certainly don't want you to know it too or take pleasure in demonstrating it. I think sometimes the biggest thing you can learn from a prof or supervisor is simply a what-not-to-do list (for when you have the opportunity to teach/supervise).

Totally right on and totally depressing, if you end up with someone who has ego issues themselves--basically, put in your time and don't expect to learn anything. Get ready to dumb-down, but kiss up and act happy about it to save your grade and reputation. This is a big reason why clinical practice is going down the sewer so fast, IMO.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Totally right on and totally depressing, if you end up with someone who has ego issues themselves--basically, put in your time and don't expect to learn anything. Get ready to dumb-down, but kiss up and act happy about it to save your grade and reputation. This is a big reason why clinical practice is going down the sewer so fast, IMO.

Thing is, if we don't expect to learn anything, then more likely than not, we won't. I'm of the mindset that pretty much everyone out there knows more than me about something. Thus, something can be learned from most situations, even the really horrible ones (as wigflip mentioned, even if that just includes figuring out what not to do in a situation and/or how to deal with difficult supervisors).

 

[Pragma]

Thing is, if we don't expect to learn anything, then more likely than not, we won't. I'm of the mindset that pretty much everyone out there knows more than me about something. Thus, something can be learned from most situations, even the really horrible ones (as wigflip mentioned, even if that just includes figuring out what not to do in a situation and/or how to deal with difficult supervisors).

Ditto. You can commiserate all you want with your other trainees at whatever level, but if you can't "practice what you preach" and reframe here or there, you won't pick up anything from supervisors. I have had bad ones but usually there is something unique to learn from each. If you think you know everything, then you probably should be a patient.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Thing is, if we don't expect to learn anything, then more likely than not, we won't.

Nah, the secret to satisfaction in life is low expectations. It's amazing how expecting little can result in great perceptions of what was gained. Meanwhile, expecting high things from life situations can leave one terribly disappointed. Keep it low and you're bound to be happy with what you've learned .

I'm of the mindset that pretty much everyone out there knows more than me about something. Thus, something can be learned from most situations, even the really horrible ones (as wigflip mentioned, even if that just includes figuring out what not to do in a situation and/or how to deal with difficult supervisors).

I do agree with you here, as I said above.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Ditto. You can commiserate all you want with your other trainees at whatever level, but if you can't "practice what you preach" and reframe here or there, you won't pick up anything from supervisors. I have had bad ones but usually there is something unique to learn from each. If you think you know everything, then you probably should be a patient.

It's not about knowing everything, it's about being hungry for knowledge and not getting it from supervisors/mentors--not being challenged, having to deal with BS boundary issues and egos relating to the training relationship rather than the therapeutic relationship (i.e. clients).

 

[Pragma]

It's not about knowing everything, it's about being hungry for knowledge and not getting it from supervisors/mentors--not being challenged, having to deal with BS boundary issues and egos relating to the training relationship rather than the therapeutic relationship (i.e. clients).

Sure that is frustrating. But all supervisors want their trainees to have a good attitude towards training. Many don't. What's the term...incompetent and unaware?

So there is crappy supervision, but also crappy attitudes towards supervision and a reluctance to take criticism that might be dispositional (as opposed to situational) or a backseat in terms of "who's in charge." Some of this is a generational difference.

 

[psychRA]

Many other students, and some of my clinical supervisors, seem to feel threatened by me. I am able to demonstrate that I am well-versed in theory, and I have done what others have said is impressive clinical and academic work for my young career. I've noticed others often act very competitive in my presence, trying to one-up me in front of others and such.

The common denominator in these situations is you.

I noticed that, in your original post, you didn't mention the possibility that you may be contributing to this dynamic, which seems telling. Of course, you may be working in a setting that's full of competitive, cutthroat people who try to one-up each other all the time; however, you're not raising that as a possibility, either, but are assuming that it's unique to you.

In my experience, competent supervisors are not threatened by supervisees. They are irritated by supervisees who give the impression of thinking that the supervisor has nothing to teach them. Not to say that all supervisors are competent, but I'd encourage you to really think about whether this is a pattern that seems to emerge in a lot of your professional relationships, and why.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

I have actually found this thread to be extremely helpful. Thanks everyone.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I have actually found this thread to be extremely helpful. Thanks everyone.

Best of luck, and if you feel up to it, be sure to keep us posted how things turn out/progress.

 

[ArmyPsych]

Many other students, and some of my clinical supervisors, seem to feel threatened by me. I am able to demonstrate that I am well-versed in theory, and I have done what others have said is impressive clinical and academic work for my young career. I've noticed others often act very competitive in my presence, trying to one-up me in front of others and such. Does anyone else experience this?

Bazinga?

 

[wigflip]

Bazinga?

I don't think so. Quoting OP from another thread:

"Well, I know I want to have as much control possible over my career. I don't like/don't do well working under others. I need independence and flexibility so I can be my creative self.

So ultimately, I want a private practice, maybe even bring others on board at some point and supervise them. I'd also like to be an adjunct lecturer (which I mentioned in another thread) and contribute at least a few pieces of research. I'd also like to speak at CE conferences and be on panel discussions too. I am wildly creative and enjoy doing MANY different things."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11780124#post11780124

 

[zensouth]

Bazinga?

lol!