i'm curious about this too
Saw a fellow "pre-med" cheat during an exam today.
- Thread starter OREdwardsJR
- Start date
i'm curious about this too
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 6,234
- Reaction score
- 1,658
Cheating on tests is a gateway crime, didn't you know?
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 52
- Reaction score
- 2
It's the marijuana of academic dishonesty. The teachers hate it, yet indulged quite frequently themselves back in the day. The bastards.
No logical leap. This has been the basis for mandating new coursework in ethics & professionalism in the US med student curriculum. The pilot research came out of UCSF & has been followed up repeatedly in the New England Journal of Medicine & Academic Medicine (the journal of the AAMC). It isn't flawless research, but it had enough merit to have already influenced the curriculum of many schools within just a few years.
Here are some of the articles:
1) Performanceduring internal medicine residency training and subsequent disciplinary actionby state licensing boards.
2) Medical student professionalism: are we measuring the rightbehaviors? A comparison of professional lapses by students andphysicians.
3) Professionalbehavior--a learner's permit for licensure.
This is a summary article & can be read in full, here: http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Committees/EPC/epc2.pdf
…data reveal that 3 to 10 percent ofsuch physicians have increased rates of medical errors and malpractice suits…the evidence is in and the link between unprofessional behavior among medical students and their subsequent unprofessional behavior as physicians is undeniable.
4) Disciplinaryaction by medical boards and prior behavior in medicalschool.
This follow up to their pilot study can be read in full, here: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa052596#t=articleMethods
Most physicians who were disciplined committed multiple violations; for 94 percent of those who were disciplined, one or more violations involved unprofessional behavior. ... The disciplined physicians had a slightly lower mean undergraduate science GPA than did the control physicians. MCAT scores were also slightly lower among the disciplined physicians, as were NBME Part I scores and USMLE Step 1 scores... Disciplined physicians were roughly twice as likely as control physicians not to have passed at least one course on the first attempt in both the preclinical and clinical years of medical school....In this case–control study, we found that physicians who were disciplined by state medical-licensing boards were three times as likely to have displayed unprofessional behavior in medical school than were control students.
5) Domainsof unprofessional behavior during medical school associated with futuredisciplinary action by a state medical board.
6) Unprofessional behavior in medical school is associatedwith subsequent disciplinary action by a state medical board.
There are also publications linking academic dishonesty in undergrad to that in med school, as well as poor academic performance in med school to disciplinary action later in one's medical career. It is a leap, but a plausible consideration that the latter is relevant, because (aside from those with psychiatric compulsions) people with poor performance are probably more likely to cheat under the pressure of med school.
For the many on here who weren't fans of ratting someone out:
there is at least one paper attempting to show that students who are too eager to pursue action against peers' unprofessionalism were more likely to be unable to accept responsibility for their own mistakes, etc.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 1
I'm assuming a lot of pre-meds would secretly enjoy being a lawyer also. Medicine just happens to have a better job market.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,623
- Reaction score
- 30
I can totally sympathize. For my Bio final the test covered a pretty massive amount of information and I had studied my a** off! Someone in the class openly admitted to cheating. He said that he brought the test out of the room (it was a big class and kind of hectic since the professor was a few min late). He used the Internet and his book to take the test. He had been trying to flirt with me for much of the semester so I kind of wonder if it was his way of looking cool? Who knows. Anyways I kind of snapped and blew up on him. I made it very clear that I worked my a** off for a good grade and he was a (insert curse words). To make it worse, the test was curved and he and 1-2 friends snuck out together. If they got high scores on q vey difficult test it could/would raise the curve. I emailed the professor without any names and said I had been told firsthand that they had done that. He assured me that they did not affect the curve, he knew who it was also and they did not do well at all despite cheating. Karma? 😉 Anyways, normally I try not to snitch but this guy just really pushed the wrong buttons and I had worked extremely hard for the test.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2011
- Messages
- 1,108
- Reaction score
- 6
more like they would enjoy being ethicists. everyone knows most lawyers don't give a crap about morals/ethics.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 52
- Reaction score
- 2
If there were peer-reviewed articles written and supporting this data, then I would start to consider your main argument. However, every article that was posted only mentions professionalism on the levels of medical students and residents, none of which touch base on undergrads. Even if we were to ignore the difference between undergrads and medical students/residents, in order for any of these to have bearing on the original topic, we'd have to assume that cheating = unprofessional (based on the criteria given in the articles), which is something that I would bet good money anyone would have a hard time finding. You cannot merely assume that because one cheats, they would act in an unprofessional manner in a medical setting.
What happens when said cheater, and any other admitted cheater, is always on time, responsible for his or her own actions, is extremely reliable and shows proper initiative?? By all the articles you just reported, they would be considered highly professional by the Resident's Annual Eval and ABIM cert scores, which subsequently would predict that they would be at less risk for disciplinary action.
The main predictors of future disciplinary action were 1) Poor reliability and responsibility 2) lack of self improvement and adaptability and 3) poor initiative and motivation.
I'm not saying cheating on an undergraduate exam is something to be lauded or encouraged, but until it's proven that someone who cheats has a higher propensity to show poor reliability, not have any motivation etc. then I'm going to have to say that there's no reason to get up in arms about some silly teenager cheating on an undergrad exam. Just my POV.
Which is why I believe my original conclusion of having the OP just relax, realize he took care of himself by studying, have a drink or two and if he feels the need to trash the girl to his friends in order to vent, then do so. That should be a resolution everyone can get on board with.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 1
Neither do some of these pre-meds.
And if anyone cares about the outcome, I did not send the email but I overheard her complaining about her test today and I did better than I expected (A-)... All is well👍
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
I think the argument, in this context, needs to be extended to "until it is proven that not turning someone in for cheating leads to a higher propensity to show poor reliability".... remember the original post that led to this debate was him telling another post that they "chose the wrong profession" for saying they didnt care what a classmate did.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
we had a kid in UG who triple majored and was thought by the faculty to be a golden boy. he did all these same tricks. Multiple breaks with phone and whatnot. It didnt work out for him. Eventually you run out of ways to get the answer handed to you.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 52
- Reaction score
- 2
True. Must have gotten lost on the back n forth. Regardless, it's clear that as far as the criteria the articles presented, as long as a person is responsible for their own actions, is reliable etc. cheating or non turning one in for cheating has zero bearing on subsequent disciplinary actions.
I'd imagine anyone would be hardpressed to find a link between not reporting a cheater and their professional maner. I'd be eager to read such articles, but I highly doubt they'd have much if any validity.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2011
- Messages
- 52
- Reaction score
- 2
Atta boy! See, as long as you take care of yours, you'll be fine. Worrying about anyone else just creates unneeded stress. Besides, typically those who have to cheat aren't killing the exam, they're usually just getting by. It all shakes itself out eventually. Ball don't lie.
I don't care what the OP does, my original statement was to someone downtgread on a tangential issue.
I just responded to a question/statement in the thread, & the point I brought up wasn't the link between cheating in undergrad & later discipline, but in med school. However, there is also research to cover the link by showing students who cheat in undergrad are more likely to cheat in med school--it's not hard to find w pubmed, so try searching if it bugs you do much.
Yes, cheating is considered one of the unprofessional behaviors in many papers including papadakis' (& is lumped into "responsibility"/accountability in the summary statement you quote b/c they're categorizing to group infractions during school & while practicing (cheating isn't something you can do after school)--look at the tables & look at her conference slides if you care that much about defending cheating). The NEJM & AM are peer reviewed. There are also plenty of discussions regarding medical education from a psych perspective & why exactly academic dishonesty seems to be increasingly accepted in the current generation of students & publications/advisement on the need to curb cheating & remediate cheaters as part of the unprofessionalism...And yes you are right most people turn out 'ok'....only a small percent end up having discipline issues, but the group in question is 2-300% more likely to have those problems. I don't think it's worth taking SN extra risk on them, but that is just a personal opinion
The research isn't flawless, because the sample selection is difficult to balance with controls. Perhaps I didn't hand pick the perfect papers for nitpicky semantics, but I'm taking 5 min on a public form. If you want other papers, they're out there.
That said, I'm done belaboring this point. My only point was that a poster upthread should be concerned with his colleagues & not just his/her own actions, & that it should begin before being in the days before you actually get an MD
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 1
Word bro, ball don't lie.
It is not your duty to be a policeman, and if you are hung up on the morals, really I think you are in it for yourself, trying to go after people and get a charge out of it. If you want to be a man you would have a personal word with that individual, citing your displeasement.
Being a rat doesn't get anybody anywhere, but if you are strong in your words, they might stop to think every once in a while about what kind of person they want to be.
You most likely are a better person then them, but getting somebody in trouble is almost sociopathic. Its better to try to teach someone, and almost warn someone.
Eventually, this person, if they can make it all the way through, will have to know a lot and be good at what they do, or they will be booted out. There is just too many hoops in medicine and tests of character, stamina, and not to mention testing ability. Remember though, you can be extremely good and you don't need to cut corners, you are making it easier for yourself for your entire professional career.
Being a rat doesn't get anybody anywhere, but if you are strong in your words, they might stop to think every once in a while about what kind of person they want to be.
You most likely are a better person then them, but getting somebody in trouble is almost sociopathic. Its better to try to teach someone, and almost warn someone.
Eventually, this person, if they can make it all the way through, will have to know a lot and be good at what they do, or they will be booted out. There is just too many hoops in medicine and tests of character, stamina, and not to mention testing ability. Remember though, you can be extremely good and you don't need to cut corners, you are making it easier for yourself for your entire professional career.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2009
- Messages
- 289
- Reaction score
- 0
I find that kind of cheating impossible in my testing center. We have to get whole body scan, finger print, and signatures every time we leave the testing room. It takes me forever to go to the bathroom, 10 minutes is barely enough. If I were to cheat during the test, I'll have to waste like 10 minutes just by the testing center sign out procedure alone and I got no time to waste on those, lol.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
This is basically why I don't care. For any test that matters, cheating requires a plan laid out by Daniel Ocean lest you waste enough time to negate the cheat anyways. And if you get to that point relying on cheating you are kinda screwed anyways
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2010
- Messages
- 2,479
- Reaction score
- 8
But it's unfair to assume that a cheater relies on cheating. Some people do it not because they have to, but because they're lazy and have no integrity. Perhaps a student with a track record of cheating in undergrad studies honestly and performs well on the MCAT. Does that expiate what they've done previously? Is the ability to handle coursework all that matters in a medical education?
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
In a curriculum that builds, the more you cheat the more you rely on it (IMO). If you've done something dishonest at some point but otherwise carry your own weight I don't really care. It's not ideal but it is less ideal to start a witch hunt for such people. If you are a habitual cheater the system will find you often enough to make the exceptions largely inconsequential
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2011
- Messages
- 17
- Reaction score
- 0
As a TA I had the prof's permission to think up creative punishments for cheaters that wouldn't ruin their lives permanently but would ensure that they NEVER did it again. It was fun 😀
The TA probably knows. A few times that I caught cheaters I would do things to their papers and tests like write where I think they got the answer from down as I marked it off (Example: "You forgot to cite Google on this one, so it's wrong" or "Is this what Johhny said" if the cheater cheated off them). Then I'd give them a zero and ask them to come see me after class. I never called anyone out individually (I have called out an entire class though and guilted cheaters into admitting it because they thought I caught them... But that's another story).
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2010
- Messages
- 2,479
- Reaction score
- 8
I'm not the type of person who tattles because I'm selfish, and it's more convenient for me not to tattle. I just think the whole "cheaters get their due" argument is BS, especially if no one takes it upon him or herself to correct the dishonest behavior. People can reap the benefits of having cheated a couple times even after they've long since stopped. You know what they say about life being fair, but still... if you're really bothered by dishonest behavior, don't just assume that the offender is just shooting him or herself in the foot.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
I think it is now pertinent to remind everyone that this discussion is taking place in the context of the argument that "if you don't tattle you will make a bad doctor" 😉
We can agree to disagree. But I don't think most people who successfully matriculate do so by cheating
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2011
- Messages
- 1,469
- Reaction score
- 829
Well, that was an interesting four pages to read. 
I found it ironic that these two statements were in the same argument.
Since when did one's morality depend on whether or not it would benefit them to take action? It's ridiculous. If something is wrong, it's wrong, and it's not wrong because it may inconvenience you. Although it's a relatively minor issue, it wouldn't of hurt anyone to talk her about it.
If you felt that she did it, but didn't want to confront her, you could've given a heads up to the TA. But, I suppose that it's too late for that this time. If you catch her again, you should e-mail the TA. Just my two cents.
I found it ironic that these two statements were in the same argument.
Since when did one's morality depend on whether or not it would benefit them to take action? It's ridiculous. If something is wrong, it's wrong, and it's not wrong because it may inconvenience you. Although it's a relatively minor issue, it wouldn't of hurt anyone to talk her about it.
If you felt that she did it, but didn't want to confront her, you could've given a heads up to the TA. But, I suppose that it's too late for that this time. If you catch her again, you should e-mail the TA. Just my two cents.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
Nobody is saying it is a complicated gray area. All that is being contested is the notion that all doctors are (and must be) perfect little catholic alter boys. Its an overly idealistic notion that smacks of naivete and a fundamental misunderstanding of 1) the real world 2) the actual qualities which correlate with the ability to perform the duty of a physician and 3) um... Dammit I always run out before 3..... 😳
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 7,983
- Reaction score
- 1,370
I think we should focus not on the doctor/student doing the reporting but on the individual breaking the rules. After a pretty detailed search a couple days ago I could find no data on how doctors or medical students do,in terms of job performance or unprofessional problems, who see others doing something unscrupulous and fail to report it. I could make logical arguments either way about doctors who fail to report others. Maybe they're worried about their peer's job prospects and loss of licensure, making them altruistic? At that point, it's all conjecture.
I think we should focus our argument on those who actually do the cheating and if it's our place to turn in cheaters. We see other's cheat. We know it's wrong. If you personally don't want to report it, don't. There is absolutely no need to bash those who do want to report.
We as doctors, medical students, and even premeds (nay, human beings) have a duty to correct the things we see as wrong. If you think your duty is not to report a peon undergrad cheating on some meaningless exam, so be it. Maybe someone else will catch them. But some of us feel like we should, that it is part of our core values. Trusting someone else to fix societies problems isn't a great way to think, period.
For the record, I think personally think it's fine to argue you don't want to report it because it's not your place.
It's not ok to abstain from reporting it because it's "not really a problem".
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 1
FINAL UPDATE
Chick dropped the class. I don't like to see anyone fail, but if there's ever been an anecdote to cheaters never prosper, this is one. Someone in the thread mentioned that if she had to resort to cheating then she couldn't have done well and I guess you were right.
Continue with the bickering.
Chick dropped the class. I don't like to see anyone fail, but if there's ever been an anecdote to cheaters never prosper, this is one. Someone in the thread mentioned that if she had to resort to cheating then she couldn't have done well and I guess you were right.
Continue with the bickering.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
This I agree with.
K
kpcrew
Actually, cheaters frequently prosper. Source: History.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
this is improperly cited...
K
kpcrew
barry bonds, everyone on wall street, tiger woods, benjamin franklin
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 1
What did Tiger Woods and Benjamin Franklin do? To be fair, Barry Bonds is paying for his cheating right now.
Edit - It took a while to sink in. I'm assuming you're talking about his cheating fiasco. That's not technically cheating the sport.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
So is tiger.....
And yeah what exactly did Franklin do? I wonder if we are maybe getting confused with Edison?
K
kpcrew
well in that case i meant cheating as in hordes of french women 🙂
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2010
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 0
Yeah...the consequences of some deuche cheating on a biochem exam is not equivalent to those examples... Nice try though. The only way I can reasonably stand up for myself is to study harder in this situation. Often the time spent bitching about another student cheating is a lot of time wasted.
I know people who have told the teacher about cheaters. They lost a lot of time talking, the teacher did jack ****, and the students got off scott free. Another example, was the student lost a bunch of time, teacher did act and the cheaters (2) received a zero. But, both students (there were a few more but these I remember) were really upset because they didn't get their A's because they were forced to leave areas blank.
The smartest thing would have been to just carry on. In an ideal world the people telling get the time they deserve. But the world is far from ideal.
Having balls has nothing to do with this. It has to do with not shooting yourself in the foot.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 7,983
- Reaction score
- 1,370
Ok, fine. Don't do it yourself, but don't act like I shouldn't or anyone else.
And because it inconveniences you that means you shouldn't do it? Because the world often isn't fair that means we as individuals shouldn't strive to make society better?
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2010
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 0
Your right. I apologize for wording such that others feel attacked for holding up the ideal.
Because it inconveniences me, and the consequences for the cheater are not substantial enough far too often, I don't believe it meets my cost-benefit. For others, it may.
I shouldn't have been so coarse in my response.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 7,983
- Reaction score
- 1,370
Apologe accepted, I should have been more conserved in my language as well. Why don't we let this thread fade into oblivion? 🙂
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2012
- Messages
- 2,419
- Reaction score
- 135
Surprised at the number of people saying don't do anything.
Turn her in. Never forget that when Spiderman let the criminal run, he was a party in the murder of his grandfather.
I would not want ANY risk of cheaters being doctors to anyone in my family.
Turn her in. Never forget that when Spiderman let the criminal run, he was a party in the murder of his grandfather.
I would not want ANY risk of cheaters being doctors to anyone in my family.
1. It was Peter Parker's uncle
2. Comparing cheating in a gen chem to murder of a fictional character is the most fallacious thing I've ever heard.
3. 90% of people have cheated on something at some point in their lives be it in college, high school, middle school whatever. You're argument is a classic example of a slippery slope. Cheating on your 9th grade geometry test does not preclude you from becoming a good doctor.
Let the system work, keep your nose in your own business and remember the MCAT is the great equalizer 😉
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 8,219
- Reaction score
- 97
👍
The "I'd never let xxxxx be my doctor" is just silly. chances are near 100% that this person already has had a doctor who fits their exclusion criteria. Simply put, most people don't know their doctors personally. So stop with the broad sweeping fallacious melodramatic claims already
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2012
- Messages
- 11
- Reaction score
- 0
I say just keep letting her cheat. She will get caught sooner or later.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2010
- Messages
- 2,613
- Reaction score
- 740
Cheating is a fact of life, and most likely she will not be able to cheat to give her aid to get into more competitive residencies, but you can bet your bottom dollar she will try. In the long run she will not kill any patients because of cheating, but may take a residency spot, but if you are good to go, you got nothing to worry about, and same goes for just GETTING INTO medical school. Most likely she is about that 3-3.6 student (school difficulty various, yes MIT 3.0 may still crack into getting multiple MD offers), just trying to get by, and not into the 3.8 or 9 range and getting a way above average because of cheating. The fact is, people cheat, that's how life is. People do insider trading ALL the freaking time, whenever they get that treat of some info. People may try to cheat on medicare. Thing is, most of these folks get caught sometime (usually in med field you get screwed, but not always, sometimes just moving to another state gets you your privileges back). But you gotta realize that many times they go undetected, or by the time they get caught, they got so much gained from the cheating, that it ain't really gonna take a bite out of their life of high gains. I personally wouldn't tell, but it's up to you. Some thrive on high integrity and being a snitch, but if you look around, those folks are usually the ones with A) less friends, B) usually under achievers that complain about politics all time, and C) complete and utter douchebags that you wouldn't want to have a drink with and go to the ball game. I'd say, keep your integrity without the snitch aspect, keep doing your thing, you are a bright kid, so you got nothing to worry about. The thing is, if the environment was competitive in a different respect, say a physcopath trying to move up in corporate America, yeah that same person who cheats may back stab you, but luckily this is not much of a concern as your performance as a physician will be based on reputation and I got to be totally honest, if your patients like you. Patients may not like an ass, that tells on people, that may correlate to other traits that are not personable, like not being the guy they want to share the most intimate things with. The fact that you recognize its wrong, but you sound like a cool guy, means a lot, and you are fine. If anything, you could mention a blurb to her, she might feel a bit stupid, but she may not.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2012
- Messages
- 246
- Reaction score
- 0
I totally agree. Lol there was this girl, who was my friend at the time and was pre-pharmacy, in my Biology class and....she cheated during the whole final. I did not study as much as I should've and ended up with a "c" in the class : (
However, I believe she got a "B". Anyway, she had note cards and everything. We were both sitting in the very back AND I usually sit in the front ( she always sat in the back) but since we had studied for the final together, I decided to sit by her. It was the most hilarious thing I discovered. The professor was wayyyy in the front so there's no way he found out. Long story short, I didn't snitch. In fact, if I didn't know her, I still wouldn't have snitched because I'm not a snitch. FYI, she dropped out of school a year later : /.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app
