scenario question

[corona 247]

Say my top program is "A". Another program "B" is my second choice.

Program B has unofficially told me that they will rank me very highly, I respect the PD and believe he will keep is word.

My top choice A is my home institution where I have gunned the hardest, but the PD refuses to let any applicant and the residents know until Match day. The PD is really unpredictable and its hard to get a read on him.

Come Rank time here is my question:

If I rank A 1st, and B second, I fear that I will miss out matching at the sure thing B.

Thoughts?

thanks!

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[Kasey]

There's no way you could 'miss out' on matching at 'B'. This is not how the match works. If program 'A' does not go far enough down their match list to match you and you have 'B' ranked 2nd and you are, for example, #1 on their match list, then you will match there. Other candidates can't knock you down even if they ranked Program B #1 if you are ranked above them in the program's match list.

Read the NRMP stuff on how the match works. You should always rank where you want to go in the order you want to go, the programs don't know where you ranked them.

I could go into a more detailed explanation on how the match works, but I believe it's been covered ad nauseum.

Say my top program is "A". Another program "B" is my second choice.

Program B has unofficially told me that they will rank me very highly, I respect the PD and believe he will keep is word.

My top choice A is my home institution where I have gunned the hardest, but the PD refuses to let any applicant and the residents know until Match day. The PD is really unpredictable and its hard to get a read on him.

Come Rank time here is my question:

If I rank A 1st, and B second, I fear that I will miss out matching at the sure thing B.

Thoughts?

thanks!

 

[Cologist]

Rule #1 on creating a rank list: Rank in order of actual preference. If you like A better, rank there regardless of the PD.

In fact, I believe this is the ONLY rule in creating a rank list.

 

[dragonfly99]

Kasey is 110% right.
Ranking A in front of B won't hurt your chances of getting in to program B at ALL as far as the match goes. The one thing that might hurt you is if B thinks you don't want to go there and thus ranks you lower than they would have if they thought you really wanted to go there.

For what it's worth, what the PD of Program B says doesn't mean jack sh-t. I've been told that in the past, as have many others. Sometimes the lower tier programs do this to try and get you to rank them higher. The top/better programs tend to have more of a poker face - they don't want to subvert the match and don't need to.

If you like A better, rank A first, but DON'T LET PROGRAM B KNOW.

It's the game remember...don't hate the players...hate the game!

 

[Babycatcher2B]

It's the game remember...don't hate the players...hate the game!

You are right, it is a game. But I am not good at lying or playing games. For instance, how should you handle when on your interviews they ask you where have you done away rotations. Also, how do you handle when on interviews they ask you how you liked the program you visited on an away and then start to give their opinion of the program. I'm not good at lying or leading people on, which is why this whole process is worrying me. I don't want to tell every program that I interview at that I will rank them high, when in fact I won't. How should I go about doing this? Should I maybe tell my top 3 that I intend to rank them highly. At this point, early in the interview process, I have no clue as to what my top 3 choices are. I'm really afraid that if other programs know that I did 2 months at one program, that they might not rank me highly. I just don't know how to handle all this pressure.

 

[dragonfly99]

You should act quite enthuses at every interview you go to, unless you have to interest at all in going there and don't plan to rank it.
Yes you should tell your top 3 (or more) that you are very, very interested in them. You should tell your number one (not now, but later on closer to when they rank) that they are your number one.

Yes, a lot of people lie. Some will tell multiple places they are ranking them number one. It is what it is. If you don't plan to do that you had better act very, very enthusiastic and like you want the position, regardless.

I don't know what to say about the away rotations...I never did any so can't say. If they ask you point blank, I guess I'd just answer, but then try to redirect the question ("Yes I rotated at UTSW...wow that was a crazy busy hospital...I delivered so many babies...it's great to be busy, especially doing something you love. I really think that OB is a great choice for me because I really didn't realize what time it was even when I'd been up half the night. So, tell me more about the L + D rotation for interns here?"). In my experience a lot of the weaker programs ask these types of questions about where else you applied, etc. They are trying to figure out if they can get you. Just be polite and try to redirect PRN.

 

[dragonfly99]

sorry, meant "act enthused" not "enthuses". LOL!

 

[Law2Doc]

For instance, how should you handle when on your interviews they ask you where have you done away rotations.

Won't they get an updated transcript prior to doing their ranking? If so, does your transcript say this? I see no point in lying either way, but certainly don't lie if it's something they will have the opportunity to check.

 

[Samoa]

Most schools don't routinely update transcripts. And even if they did, you can't always tell where the away rotation was done. Mine just indicate the field, and the fact that it was not done at my home institution.

 

[Law2Doc]

Most schools don't routinely update transcripts. And even if they did, you can't always tell where the away rotation was done. Mine just indicate the field, and the fact that it was not done at my home institution.

Ok. Even so, I still probably would own up to where I did away rotations. Programs are just trying to gauge the competition, and nobody wants to think they are your only suitor.

 

[Cologist]

If they ask you point blank, I guess I'd just answer, but then try to redirect the question ("Yes I rotated at UTSW...wow that was a crazy busy hospital...I delivered so many babies...it's great to be busy, especially doing something you love. I really think that OB is a great choice for me because I really didn't realize what time it was even when I'd been up half the night. So, tell me more about the L + D rotation for interns here?"). In my experience a lot of the weaker programs ask these types of questions about where else you applied, etc. They are trying to figure out if they can get you. Just be polite and try to redirect PRN.

I agree with this 100%. I have been asked about other programs in different subtle and not so subtle ways and re-directing is key. Come up with a few strenghts for each programs and use those as a tool to show that 1) you did your homework 2)you are interested in the program despites your rotations elsewhere.

 

[mcl]

No applicant has anything to gain by not telling a program he/she enjoyed his/her visit and will keep the program in strong consideration.

No program has anything to gain by not telling an applicant that he/she is a strong candidate who they would be delighted to see on their Match list.

Years ago when I first started playing this game, my heart broke a little when an applicant we ranked to match ended up at another program-- despite the post interview letter she sent declaring her love for our program and her desire to train with us. Now, when I receive those types of letters and emails, I don't consider it a promise. In fact, all I think to myself is "isn't that nice."

Choosing your rank list order is a thoughtful, often difficult, task as you weigh the factors that are most important to you. It's not unusual for applicants to change their minds until the very last moment. Since that very first year, I have never considered an applicant's word as binding, and I've seldom not had at least one surprise on Match Day.

 

[Babycatcher2B]

No applicant has anything to gain by not telling a program he/she enjoyed his/her visit and will keep the program in strong consideration.

No program has anything to gain by not telling an applicant that he/she is a strong candidate who they would be delighted to see on their Match list.

Years ago when I first started playing this game, my heart broke a little when an applicant we ranked to match ended up at another program-- despite the post interview letter she sent declaring her love for our program and her desire to train with us. Now, when I receive those types of letters and emails, I don't consider it a promise. In fact, all I think to myself is "isn't that nice."

Choosing your rank list order is a thoughtful, often difficult, task as you weigh the factors that are most important to you. It's not unusual for applicants to change their minds until the very last moment. Since that very first year, I have never considered an applicant's word as binding, and I've seldom not had at least one surprise on Match Day.

So do you rank applicants simply on your desirability for the applicant into your program or does an applicant's interest or presumed disinterest (and interest in other programs) affect their ranking standings? How do you decide if every applicant shows enthusiam for the program?

 

[peerie]

Well, now I am entering this uncharted water and I also feel the struggle.

I am not very good at the BS stuff and if I am not very interested in a program I will be polite but that's about it. I can sometimes act enthusiastic just to get through the day but it's a very different enthusiastic from when I am really interested.

I have also developed my 'prn redirection,' which is awesome advice.

But, basically I am not a good liar and so the few top programs I am interested in also seem to be the ones who realize that and the rest have been pleasant but not as pursuing. I did tell my top program that they were in fact my top program. I have been telling that for a few months now. I am involved with someone in their area as well as their program being a really outstanding program so the decision to make them my top choice (and tell them that) has always been easy.

Still, my hear flutters when I worry that they might not believe me, might not rank me high enough, maybe the sky will fall? etc. I would like to be near my other half and so, well I get nervous about the match outcomes.

 

[mcl]

So do you rank applicants simply on your desirability for the applicant into your program or does an applicant's interest or presumed disinterest (and interest in other programs) affect their ranking standings? How do you decide if every applicant shows enthusiam for the program?

I think our program is a bit unusual in that we conduct blinded interviews. The Selection Committee does a good job of inviting applicants who meet our academic criteria, so the interviewers do not see grades, scores or letters of recommendation. So, yes, we primarily use the interview process to determine who is a good personality fit for our program. The residents' input is crucial in this regard, and the Coordinator also evaluates the applicants and can give some insight into their sustained level of interest through the course of the day.

We try to rank the applicants in the order in which we would like to see them join our program--so even if someone has told us flat out that they want to go somewhere else, if we like them we'll still rank them high. As I said initially, applicants change their minds all the time--right up until they turn in their rank list. If an applicant didn't rank us first, but the program they wanted filled and we were the second choice, we'll still get the applicant (and never know we weren't first on their list). If an applicant didn't rank us first and goes to another program, the Match program just goes to the next name on our list. We still end up with the residents we liked best who liked us best.

Applicants have also been known to move up a few spots on our final list by expressing continued interest to our PD.

As to what we'd do if everyone showed equal enthusiasm--between two applicants with identical interview scores, the higher position would go to the academically stronger one. If academics are also the same, the residents would decide the order.

Every program does it differently, but the bottom line is that you don't want to run the risk of alienating a program by not expressing appreciation for the opportunity to interview and a willingness to "strongly consider" the benefits of training there. That's not a promise, and it doesn't have to be a lie unless you hated every moment of your experience there.