School List Help for Non-trad applicant

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The general SDN population will come in here and blast you about your low GPA. Personally, with a PhD and all that research I think you might be able to sell yourself as a "reinvention" type. Does your PhD or post-doc university have a medical school?
 
Your activities and research are very strong, and your MCAT is good. (it's a 33 on the old MCAT). As you mentioned, a 3.0 GPA is what will hold you back, and a 3.5 grad GPA in chemistry is decent.

Unfortunately, despite your very strong research background, i'm not sure if any MD school will accept you since your LizzyM score is a 63 (the average is a 68 usually, 3.7 GPA, 31 MCAT). You may have some advantage for DO schools, but unless you complete and excel a postbacc or SMP, you're at a disadvantage academically.

I'll let @Goro @gyngyn and others chime in.
 
Thanks for the feedback @Lawper. I know that I will be lucky to gain admission anywhere. My thinking is, that I might as well apply this cycle and see what happens. I have a contract that ends next summer, so even if I returned to the US and invested in a postbacc program, I couldn't start until Fall 2016. So, I will apply now (don't know to where, exactly!), and if nothing works out then I can pursue PostBac in Fall of 2016.

I need to investigate DO schools. I honestly haven't considered it (I know that I should have with my stats). I'm not sure, but I think that I might hold out for the MD. I want to go back into research, at least partly, and although I understand that a DO is functionally the same degree, it is unfortunately not regarded as such within the medical research community (in my experience).
 
@goniff

Can I just say, thank you. I'm touched. This is the most positive feedback that I have received, and I really needed to hear this. I realize that opinions will vary tremendously in my case, but even hearing one person say that my poor undergraduate performance is not an end all, is encouraging. Regarding your last point, I recognize that people will be confused to see me leaving my current field, (especially as I have just had my first grant funded!), and my only answer to this is that, although I love what I do, the dream of my life has been to be a medical doctor. I know that I have to give it an honest try, or I will face regret.
 
One question that I have more out of curiosity, though adcoms may ask a similar one - if you are so invested in all this research and just got a grant approved, what is your exit strategy there? Doesn't sound like you can just bail next August, right?
 
Your problem is that the state schools in the South are very OOS unfriendly.

I suggest all DO schools, your state MD school(s), USUHS ( you're aware of the service commitment??), Oakland-B, WVU, Tulane, Western MI, and Wake Forest.



crunchywhit said:
My issue is that I do not really know where I stand. All of the charts show uGPA and MCAT as predictors of success. But, I do not quite fit in to the charts. According to MCAT, I think I'm OK for a wide range of schools. But my ugrad GPA is VERY low. Then again, I have had what I think is a successful scientific career so far (for a new investigator anyway), and I know that I have overcome the issues that caused me to struggle a bit with GPA in college (all personal, not academic). So, I don't even know where to begin. How do I classify myself when trying to estimate what type of schools to apply to? I know that I will apply to:

USUHS
Univ S Carolina Columbia
Univ S Carolina Greenville
MUSC (S. Carolina)
UCentral Florida

I am interested in being in the South for family reasons, but it is not necessary.



Stats (ask if i haven't said something)

91% on new April 2015 MCAT (514 total, 130/97% ChemPhys, 129/93% CARS, 126/67% Bio, 129/93% Psych)
PhD in Chemistry from Top 10 Program
Currently a Postdoc in Chemistry at Top 3 Univ (project is focused on identifying targets to treat glioma and glioblastoma)
10 publications (6 from undergrad)
Succesfully obtained govt grant funding
3.0 cumulative/3.0 science gpa (using amcas formula) ... i know... i know...
3.5ish grad gpa (using amcas formula)
3 semesters TA experience, 1 semester professorial teaching experience
parent of two kids, ages 3 and 7
South Carolina Residency (currently living outside US)

I have shadowed a primary care doc, and am currently participating in theatre with a neurosurgeon (my current research is in oncology and i shadow the surgeries and then take the samples and process them for all of my chemistry based experiments)

i have lots of volunteer hours (which i guess i still need to quantify) in women-in-STEM oriented programs, be it tutoring, guest lecturing, mentoring, etc.

i participate in charity athletic events for the funding agency that funds my basic science research (cancer research UK)

I should have more shadowing and volunteer stuff, but honestly with single-parenting and phd and then postdocing, time and $$ have been quite tight.

neither of my parents graduated from college (mom didnt grad from HS), and we grew up under the poverty line, so i believe that i can tick that box on AMCAS.

I am applying for HPSP.
Click to expand...
 
gonnif said:
You are applying a LizzyM score as an absolute and is more predictive for a more traditional undergrad. Here we have a nontrad with a low UG but completed a PhD at a top program, which will count for much more than usual. While for most medical schools, graduate degrees, usually masters, have little value, other than an SMP, here is

1) A hard science PhD
2) Fully committed and completed a lengthy program
3) has multiple publication which in this case show a fully engaged committed professional
4) Currently is a post-doc

What this overall will say to a medical school is top-tier reinvention, fully motivated, committed, and has shown superior academic achievement. The issue wont be academic questions but motivation to leave a successful research track to clinical, which is what PS and secondaries is for.

While I wouldnt advise shooting for the stars, this OP should look well above his/her uGPA for medical schools
Click to expand...

Good to hear. I'm happy that medical schools are willing to look OP as an applicant more than past performance in undergrad. It makes the application process much more friendly to nontrads
 
ChrisMack390 said:
One question that I have more out of curiosity, though adcoms may ask a similar one - if you are so invested in all this research and just got a grant approved, what is your exit strategy there? Doesn't sound like you can just bail next August, right?
Click to expand...

I received a 1 year grant, which renders me eligible to apply for a 5 year funding package. I will naturally not apply for the longer term funding package, and my current grant commitment will terminate at the end of my current contract (middle of next year).

I don't think that I need an "exit strategy" - I'm not running away. My supervisor is aware of my desire to go to med school and my current application. If successful, I will simply say that I was successful, and that I will be leaving at the end of my current contract.
 
gonnif said:
As director of the Society for Nontraditional Premedical and Medical Students, (better known as OldPreMeds) my advising portfolio is majority nontrads. In addition to the more known students simply trying to repair a poor undergraduate record with SMP and such, about 40% are successful in a field, including 10%-15% academics with advanced degrees. Though it happens every year, it still surprises me every year where I get 1 or 2 highly successful, well-known in their field academics, both natural and social sciences, who want advising for medical school.
Click to expand...

Glad to know that I am not alone (even if I am in a very small minority!)
 
Goro said:
Your problem is that the state schools in the South are very OOS unfriendly.

I suggest all DO schools, your state MD school(s), USUHS ( you're aware of the service commitment??), Oakland-B, WVU, Tulane, Western MI, and Wake Forest.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this list. I hadn't thought of Wake Forest for some reason but this is a great option.

And yes, I am aware of the USUHS service commitment. I am not opposed to this and know from previous military college/ROTC experience that I could embrace the lifestyle.
 
Re. location

I specified south only because I have been away from "home" for my PhD/postdoc work, and I would like to eventually land back near my family. I would like my children to have family within close proximity (they haven't had that experience at all yet). Because I am applying for HPSP as well, I can imagine that after medical school, we will probably not be local to my family for several years. However, I can appreciate that beggars can't be choosers, and I would be happy to hear recommendations for schools at any locale. We can always aim to end up back near my fam after medical school and any commitments that I might incur.
 
Goro said:
There are now DO schools (and some >1) in every state of the old Confederacy except LA and AR. But I can't recommend LUCOM.
Click to expand...

No LUCOM b/c it is new or some other reason?
 
I'm in the same boat as you, crunchywhit. Well, I'm finishing up my Ph.D instead of a post-doc and have a somewhat different set of numbers. I decided to apply broadly.

Interesting discrepancy between our adcom subject matter experts here on this applicant. Goro is reserved, while gonnif is advocating hard for them, to say the least.
 
Doug Underhill said:
I'm in the same boat as you, crunchywhit. Well, I'm finishing up my Ph.D instead of a post-doc and have a somewhat different set of numbers. I decided to apply broadly.

Interesting discrepancy between our adcom subject matter experts here on this applicant. Goro is reserved, while gonnif is advocating hard for them, to say the least.
Click to expand...

I do find it interesting, but not necessarily surprising. These situations are contentious. The job of the adcom is to pick people that will navigate medical school successfully. And I can understand based on my track record why someone might still not be convinced of that. In some ways I need someone to take a chance on me- and this is a high stakes game and I can certainly understand why someone would be quite hesitant to put faith in me over a traditional student who successfully navigated college coursework.

I think that I will broaden my schools to include both DO and some private research heavy universities as well (I hadn't thought of that, because the stats are usually quite high, but I guess it makes sense that they may be the most likely to value my research experience...) There really is no way to know, and you can't predict the attitude of the particular people reading your app.
 
@gonnif, do you have any advice or methodology for better examining one's application? I agree that SDN hyper-focuses on MCAT and GPA, but it is tough to use anything else to get a sense of your chances and where it is appropriate to apply.

I personally know somewhere around 40 students at Tufts Medical School and 10 at Harvard Medical School. Nearly all of them would have been laughed off of this board for suggesting they'd like to apply to Harvard or Tufts. One of the Tufts students recently asked me if I'd be applying to Tufts and I inadvertently came off as a crazy gunner for implying that I didn't think I was competitive for Tufts because of my 3.4 GPA.
 
If we look at Weill, Pritzker, and Pitt in the MSAR, they have a 10th percentile GPA at around 3.6. Doesn't that imply that these non-trads with very different numbers will not be particularly successful at these institutions?

This is commonly used as a heuristic, but I am uncertain how applicable it is to this type of applicant.
 
Doug Underhill said:
If we look at Weill, Pritzker, and Pitt in the MSAR, they have a 10th percentile GPA at around 3.6. Doesn't that imply that these non-trads with very different numbers will not be particularly successful at these institutions?

This is commonly used as a heuristic, but I am uncertain how applicable it is to this type of applicant.
Click to expand...

It implies that their classes include 5-20 students with undergraduate GPAs lower than 3.6. To get into that small group, you'd have to do something very impressive. Something like getting a PhD, publishing 10 papers, and working as a professional educator.
 
SDN likes to assume that the students in the 1-15th percentiles don't actually exist. Granted, if this guy posted with a 3.0 plus some generic ER volunteering, a thesis project, and had shadowed 2 doctors for a day each, he'd have no shot. At some point life experience can't be meaningless.
 
crunchywhit said:
My issue is that I do not really know where I stand. All of the charts show uGPA and MCAT as predictors of success. But, I do not quite fit in to the charts. According to MCAT, I think I'm OK for a wide range of schools. But my ugrad GPA is VERY low. Then again, I have had what I think is a successful scientific career so far (for a new investigator anyway), and I know that I have overcome the issues that caused me to struggle a bit with GPA in college (all personal, not academic). So, I don't even know where to begin. How do I classify myself when trying to estimate what type of schools to apply to? I know that I will apply to:

USUHS
Univ S Carolina Columbia
Univ S Carolina Greenville
MUSC (S. Carolina)
UCentral Florida

I am interested in being in the South for family reasons, but it is not necessary.



Stats (ask if i haven't said something)

91% on new April 2015 MCAT (514 total, 130/97% ChemPhys, 129/93% CARS, 126/67% Bio, 129/93% Psych)
PhD in Chemistry from Top 10 Program
Currently a Postdoc in Chemistry at Top 3 Univ (project is focused on identifying targets to treat glioma and glioblastoma)
10 publications (6 from undergrad)
Succesfully obtained govt grant funding
3.0 cumulative/3.0 science gpa (using amcas formula) ... i know... i know...
3.5ish grad gpa (using amcas formula)
3 semesters TA experience, 1 semester professorial teaching experience
parent of two kids, ages 3 and 7
South Carolina Residency (currently living outside US)

I have shadowed a primary care doc, and am currently participating in theatre with a neurosurgeon (my current research is in oncology and i shadow the surgeries and then take the samples and process them for all of my chemistry based experiments)

i have lots of volunteer hours (which i guess i still need to quantify) in women-in-STEM oriented programs, be it tutoring, guest lecturing, mentoring, etc.

i participate in charity athletic events for the funding agency that funds my basic science research (cancer research UK)

I should have more shadowing and volunteer stuff, but honestly with single-parenting and phd and then postdocing, time and $$ have been quite tight.

neither of my parents graduated from college (mom didnt grad from HS), and we grew up under the poverty line, so i believe that i can tick that box on AMCAS.

I am applying for HPSP.
Click to expand...

Thank you all for the useful discussion and feedback on this thread. Just wanted to add a "results" post.

I applied very broadly and very late in the cycle to a small list of schools which I spoke to me in terms of missions. I intentionally applied to a small list of schools so that I would not be a reapplicant at all schools next year. I truthfully ignored school stats because I was well below every MD schools stats anyway. I received secondaries from all schools except two (take heed this included an IS school which I had assumed might be less selective). I was put into "reevaluate at a later day" piles at a top 10 and at a school which is super low yield (in SDN lore atleast). These eventually became pre-ii rejections. I received two late iis (both in February). One from an IS and one from a high mid tier. I just received an offer today from the IS. I am on an alternate list at the higher ranked school.

Take home lessons from my experience:

GPA matters! Yes, I'm talking to you who might think that your ECs are outstanding. Nothing can substitute for a low GPA. I was eventually a professor for courses which I received Bs and Cs in during undergrad. My interviewers absolutely smoked me on my undergrad grades anyway. Obviously, I know that material now. But why the heck was I inconsistent as an UG? This question was asked at every single interview. This is also why a great MCAT can't save you. It's not only about knowing the content. It's about showing that you are a consistent human being (mental health issues, substance abuse, etc. can cause smart people to perform inconsistently. Obviously adcoms want no part of that.)

Don't be a bonehead (don't apply late)

Plan to apply once - this idea I spouted about applying to "see what happens" is nonsense

Don't be overseas during your interview season.

There are no safeties. None. It's very competitive out there.

DO take the time to craft an excellent AMCAS essay and secondary responses. I meticulously researched the schools to which I applied and I believe that the care in my secondary responses was potentially very useful for me.

You do not know how your interview went. Trust me. I came home and sobbed after my first interview. I immediately chalked it up as a rejection. And today I received an acceptance.

Don't apply to a school that you don't want to go to. Period.

I am very lucky to have an MD acceptance this cycle. Please do not read this thread and think "3.0 and an acceptance, it can be done". Instead, think...
"3.0 and
every other box checked in very above average ways and
this lady was a professor for college chemistry and
a Fulbright finalist and
Tons of pubs and
It goes on and on...
And she got rejected from a LOT of schools"

Not trying to be negative. But listen to the adcoms on here! Seriously!

Go for your dreams but be informed.
 
Congrats on your success @crunchywhit ! Very happy to see you getting into US MD despite some setbacks and best wishes on your future endeavors! And goes to show that LizzyM scores shouldn't be used as an absolute truth.

If you don't mind, it would be helpful if you could be active on SDN for a few months and provide some insight for the other nontrads, especially in the research side of things. Our discussion in a recent thread about abstracts/presentations has been really meaningful so it would be great to have similar discussions in the future.
 
Lawper said:
Congrats on your success @crunchywhit ! Very happy to see you getting into US MD despite some setbacks and best wishes on your future endeavors! And goes to show that LizzyM scores shouldn't be used as an absolute truth.

If you don't mind, it would be helpful if you could be active on SDN for a few months and provide some insight for the other nontrads, especially in the research side of things. Our discussion in a recent thread about abstracts/presentations has been really meaningful so it would be great to have similar discussions in the future.
Click to expand...
I agree that the discussion re abstract/presentations was really useful. I'm happy to stick around. I'm mostly a lurker... I don't post unless I feel that I am contributing useful and factual info to the conversation. Feel free to tag me and I'll be sure to comment (especially in WAMC and some of the threads which I don't frequent as regularly).

Thanks @Lawper for sharing your expertise. Also thanks @Goro (your school list was spot on) @gonnif @ChrisMack390 @OchemOficionado @Doug Underhill and any contributors I might have missed.
Best of luck to those still waiting, reapplying, etc. I'll be around!
 
crunchywhit said:
I agree that the discussion re abstract/presentations was really useful. I'm happy to stick around. I'm mostly a lurker... I don't post unless I feel that I am contributing useful and factual info to the conversation. Feel free to tag me and I'll be sure to comment (especially in WAMC and some of the threads which I don't frequent as regularly).

Thanks @Lawper for sharing your expertise. Also thanks @Goro (your school list was spot on) @gonnif @ChrisMack390 @OchemOficionado @Doug Underhill and any contributors I might have missed.
Best of luck to those still waiting, reapplying, etc. I'll be around!
Click to expand...

Would you mind sharing where you got interviews and acceptances? I have a somewhat similar app (numbers are a little nicer than yours but research not nearly as impressive).

Feel free to PM if you prefer, though sharing here could be nice for future underdogs.
 
ChrisMack390 said:
Would you mind sharing where you got interviews and acceptances? I have a somewhat similar app (numbers are a little nicer than yours but research not nearly as impressive).

Feel free to PM if you prefer, though sharing here could be nice for future underdogs.
Click to expand...
PMing you. Any one else can PM me for details if interested. I want to be as helpful as possible but also wanted to be careful about confidentiality because I've provided so many unique identifying details. 🙂
 
crunchywhit said:
PMing you. Any one else can PM me for details if interested. I want to be as helpful as possible but also wanted to be careful about confidentiality because I've provided so many unique identifying details. 🙂
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
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