schools that are pass/fail

[luckycharms]

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is there any way you can check whether a school is pass/fail? it's not on the site for a lot of schools, so i was wondering which schools use pass/fail system (i think there are quite a few). i only know of mt. sinai, cornell

i am curious b/c i heard pass/fail system makes the environment less competitive and stressful. but i wonder, isn't it possible for grades to be uncovered when applying for residency (and if so, i don't see how that would make the environment less stressful b/c people would still gun for good grades)

 

[diosa428]

The AAMC has a website that you can search. Look under "Institutional Characteristics" on this page: http://services.aamc.org/currdir/start.cfm

I'm not sure how up to date or accurate this is though, you may be better off contacting the schools and asking.

 

[Law2Doc]

is there any way you can check whether a school is pass/fail? it's not on the site for a lot of schools, so i was wondering which schools use pass/fail system (i think there are quite a few). i only know of mt. sinai, cornell

i am curious b/c i heard pass/fail system makes the environment less competitive and stressful. but i wonder, isn't it possible for grades to be uncovered when applying for residency (and if so, i don't see how that would make the environment less stressful b/c people would still gun for good grades)

A pretty good chunk of med schools are P/F. However most of them have ranking systems hidden beneath that P/F exterior. And some of the places that are P/F have an honors/high pass/pass/low pass/fail division, so it's really just a grade system with different words. A true P/F would be nice, but not important enough, in my opinion, to make your med school choice over, in my opinion. Regardless of where you go, you can lower the stress level by just competing against yourself, not the others in your class. Just do your best, whatever it may be, and try to enjoy yourself.

 

[luckycharms]

that's definitely good advice, and i realize that pass/fail isn't everything; but i must say, it can be frustrating when you want to do well and get the "high pass" or "A grade" and you do your very best but the end result is less than what you expect or hope for. i feel like a pass/fail system would take away the stress of having a specific grade to shoot for, and you would be more able to actually compete against yourself rather than against others. i dont know, that's just my opinion. as far as choosing a medical school, i think location is important, as well as finding a school that's a good fit. a P/F system is partly what makes me wonder whether a school would be a good fit...
oh yeh, thank you, diosa, for the helpful link!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

A pretty good chunk of med schools are P/F. However most of them have ranking systems hidden beneath that P/F exterior. And some of the places that are P/F have an honors/high pass/pass/low pass/fail division, so it's really just a grade system with different words. A true P/F would be nice, but not important enough, in my opinion, to make your med school choice over, in my opinion. Regardless of where you go, you can lower the stress level by just competing against yourself, not the others in your class. Just do your best, whatever it may be, and try to enjoy yourself.

Good point, also grades are less significant in med school than they were in college.

 

[masterMood]

pass/fail could also make you lazier and just aim for the bare minimum

 

[luckycharms]

i'm just guessing, but are grades less important b/c almost everyone in med school will go on to residency and become a doc? even if that's true, i would think that in terms of getting the residency you want the grades must come into play.

 

[masterMood]

grades are pretty important --- that, and usmle part I scores which I think are out of 270 or something. To pass is like 190, but to get into hard residencies you need like at least a 220 or 230

 

[Wake2Wake7]

P/F is usually (although there are exceptions) a farce. You're usually ranked by the administration anyway so they can evaluate you come time for residency applications...

 

[drmota]

i'm just guessing, but are grades less important b/c almost everyone in med school will go on to residency and become a doc? even if that's true, i would think that in terms of getting the residency you want the grades must come into play.

no. grades are probably ~ 5th most important factor in determining residency. the top 4 are: (btw, this is from people my parents know who are residency coordinators)

1) boards
2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations
3) research
4) LORs

now, if you have AWESOME grades, they would definitely help. but overall, they're not gonna make or break you.

-mota

 

[masterMood]

how do you get 2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations ? It seems like that aspect can be very unbalanced and ambiguous especially if you have people who are hard to work along with, etc.

 

[luckycharms]

i want to believe that grades aren't that important. i'm getting the impression that boards are, however; do you think that a pass/fail system would give you a little more freedom to prepare for your boards? or will you be set for your boards as long as you're holding solid grades?

 

[Law2Doc]

no. grades are probably ~ 5th most important factor in determining residency. the top 4 are: (btw, this is from people my parents know who are residency coordinators)

1) boards
2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations
3) research
4) LORs

now, if you have AWESOME grades, they would definitely help. but overall, they're not gonna make or break you.

-mota

I would switch numbers 3 and 4 -- never underestimate the value of a good word. But you've listed the big 4. First two years grades are of far less importance, which is why it's sort of funny that there are gunners at all. Even when you get to criteria number 5, though, the grade itself is of less value than a residency director noticing whether you have honored (or at the other extreme failed) anything. So you just do your best, and let everything else play out.
As for P/F allowing you to aim for the bare minimum, just bear in mind that you still have to learn quite a bit to pass -- anything below C is failing (sometimes, in rare cases, requiring one to forfeit his/her summer to repeat the course) and the material in med school is more detailed and voluminous, and the competition more impressive, than anything you've been exposed to in college. More often then not, the folks who get the bare minimum passing grades didn't get them by working any less than the folks who got slightly higher grades, they just were less effective at mastering and remembering the material, or the style of testing.

 

[MrBurns10]

is there any way you can check whether a school is pass/fail? it's not on the site for a lot of schools, so i was wondering which schools use pass/fail system (i think there are quite a few). i only know of mt. sinai, cornell

i am curious b/c i heard pass/fail system makes the environment less competitive and stressful. but i wonder, isn't it possible for grades to be uncovered when applying for residency (and if so, i don't see how that would make the environment less stressful b/c people would still gun for good grades)

Check out Case Western and Cleveland Clinic (part of CWRU)...they are both unranked P/F. You do have grades in your 3rd and 4th years at Case, but CCLCM is P/F the entire four years. the students at these programs seem to speak really highly of the grading system and they definitely study a lot, there's just not that competitive edge.

 

[Law2Doc]

i want to believe that grades aren't that important. i'm getting the impression that boards are, however; do you think that a pass/fail system would give you a little more freedom to prepare for your boards? or will you be set for your boards as long as you're holding solid grades?

Studying for boards will be much easier if you got a solid grasp of the material from your classes. You want to be reviewing for the boards, not learning it anew. Thus the folks who did solidly in the first two years science classes tend to be at a better starting point for studying for the boards. Don't expect any "freedom" to prepare for anything else while in med school. You will not have "more freedom" to spend studying on anything else besides the classes you are in, no matter what the grading system is.

 

[luckycharms]

I would switch numbers 3 and 4 -- never underestimate the value of a good word. But you've listed the big 4. First two years grades are of far less importance, which is why it's sort of funny that there are gunners at all. Even when you get to criteria number 5, though, the grade itself is of less value than a residency director noticing whether you have honored (or at the other extreme failed) anything. So you just do your best, and let everything else play out.
As for P/F allowing you to aim for the bare minimum, just bear in mind that you still have to learn quite a bit to pass -- anything below C is failing (sometimes requiring you to forfeit your summer to repeat the course) and the material in med school is more detailed and voluminous, and the competition more impressive, than anything you've been exposed to in college. More often then not, the folks who get the bare minimum passing grades didn't get them by working any less than the folks who got slightly higher grades, they just were less effective at mastering and remembering the material, or the style of testing.

i'm glad you said this, law2doc, b/c i realized this was where i was going with my original post. like u say, there seems to be a fine line between passing and failing. so, my initial concern was -- given the level of competition and the sheer volume of information -- would i simply be getting by with mediocre grades in a grade system even with hard work, and if so maybe a pass/fail system would be better...

 

[Law2Doc]

i'm glad you said this, law2doc, b/c i realized this was where i was going with my original post. like u say, there seems to be a fine line between passing and failing. so, my initial concern was -- given the level of competition and the sheer volume of information -- would i simply be getting by with mediocre grades in a grade system even with hard work, and if so maybe a pass/fail system would be better...

Except for the handful of places where there is no semblance of rank, it won't matter. Eg. being bottom 20% of the class is bottom 20% of the class, whether your transcript reflects a C or a P or a low pass. I again suggest you do the absolute best you can no matter where you go, ignore how everyone else is doing or where you are with respect to the curve, and everything else will work itself out naturally.

 

[masterMood]

2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations

how do you make sure that your colleagues and professors/instructors/etc. are impressed by you then? Extreme case) what if you're a muslim and your director is jewish or vice versa? there's definitely goign to be some innate hostility there.

 

[NunoBR]

Cornell---> Honors/ Pass/ Fail (top 20% gets honors)

Mount Sinai---> Pass/ Fail

NYU---> Pass/ Fail (they do keep track underneath, for AOA I think)

Northwestern---> Pass/ Fail

Jefferson---> Honors/ Pass/ Fail (Anything above 90 is honors, even if
thewhole class honors a course)

I don't know what is best, but the people that I spoke to and go to P/F schools really like it.
Of course, to be honest, all schools I interviewed at the students really like it.
Honestly I think asking students what they think of the school on interviewes is necessary but a waste of time at the same time.
I would like to go to a P/F school. But honestly, dont' know how much of a difference it would make at the end.

Anyone care to add more schools?

 

[Law2Doc]

2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations

how do you make sure that your colleagues and professors/instructors/etc. are impressed by you then? Extreme case) what if you're a muslim and your director is jewish or vice versa? there's definitely goign to be some innate hostility there.

You either learn to work around that, and get passed these "innate hostility" concerns, or you are SOL. Working with others and people skills is a HUGE component in medicine, and if you can't master these skills, you may have trouble. Charismatic people with good people skills/bedside manner often tend to get further in medicine (and in most professions). This is the reason that schools don't just focus on numerical stats.

 

[Pewl]

Honestly, when it comes to residency I think "who you know" is more important than "what you know." There's a lot of politics and I'm personally aware that many residency directors don't pay much attention to board scores. It was a bit of a shock to me talking to them but I guess that's kinda how it'd work in the real world as well.

 

[Ashanti Rock]

2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations

how do you make sure that your colleagues and professors/instructors/etc. are impressed by you then? Extreme case) what if you're a muslim and your director is jewish or vice versa? there's definitely goign to be some innate hostility there.

A lot of med schools use the shelf exams after your rotatations and this will factor into how you are evaluated. For instance......if you rock your shelf exams and other attendings say you have good bedside manner than it makes it difficult for the director to give you a bad rating.

 

[Law2Doc]

A lot of med schools use the shelf exams after your rotatations and this will factor into how you are evaluated. For instance......if you rock your shelf exams and other attendings say you have good bedside manner than it makes it difficult for the director to give you a bad rating.

I agree, but ideally you get a glowing report rather than just not a bad rating. Dealing with other people of other backgrounds is something the previous poster will have to overcome, or else medicine will be a rough career choice.

 

[QofQuimica]

2) scores/evaluation from 3rd and 4th year rotations

how do you make sure that your colleagues and professors/instructors/etc. are impressed by you then? Extreme case) what if you're a muslim and your director is jewish or vice versa? there's definitely goign to be some innate hostility there.

I realize that this is just supposed to be an off-the-cuff example, and maybe you don't mean it how it comes across. But this is America, not Israel. Saying that Muslim-Jewish tension is "innate" is untrue and makes YOU sound prejudiced and like you're trying to start something. 👎 If you are in this situation where you are a Muslim and your director is Jewish or vice versa, you would be better off relating to him/her like a human being, unless you have a real reason (other than the mere fact of his/her religion being different from yours) to think that this person is discriminating against you.

 

[chlorineK]

A lot of med schools use the shelf exams after your rotatations and this will factor into how you are evaluated. For instance......if you rock your shelf exams and other attendings say you have good bedside manner than it makes it difficult for the director to give you a bad rating.

I just wanted to add that as far as we know (at Yale), Yale is the only truly Pass/Fail system. You will not be ranked here for residency directors, they do not keep track of any GPA-like thing here for AOA (because AOA is meaningless here), and we do not have graded shelf exams here either. You compete against yourself all four years, and still end up being an awesome (and maybe more collegiate, cooperate) doctor in the end.

 

[Will Ferrell]

I just wanted to add that as far as we know (at Yale), Yale is the only truly Pass/Fail system. You will not be ranked here for residency directors, they do not keep track of any GPA-like thing here for AOA (because AOA is meaningless here), and we do not have graded shelf exams here either. You compete against yourself all four years, and still end up being an awesome (and maybe more collegiate, cooperate) doctor in the end.

I think Case Western is also P/F, unranked.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think Case Western is also P/F, unranked.

The College program (Cleveland Clinic) is P/F, unranked, for all five years. The University program (main Case program) is only P/F for the pre-clinical years.