Schools that like HIGH mcat/low gpa?

[northernlights15]

I know there's a lot of talk about schools that prefer high GPAs versus schools that prefer high MCATs (and are therefore more giving of a relatively lower GPA)?

What schools are they?

My gpa is not in a terrible place but I'm going to try my best to accept the damage, not mope about it anymore, try my best in the rest of my classes (aka get a 4.0) and make the MCAT my bitch!

I'm going to invest a lot of time studying for it. I predict if I follow through with my plan I will do well.

So yeah, I was wondering if you guys had an inkling about what schools might favor high MCATs? or if you guys had any anecdotes about low GPA/high mcat acceptances?

Thanks!

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[Lawpy]

Top 20-30 schools tend to favor low GPA (~3.3-3.5) and high MCAT (>38). The lower tier seems to favor high GPA (>3.8) and low MCAT (~28-30) (I don't know why, it doesn't even make sense).

Low GPA/high MCAT may give the notion of being "smart but lazy", but personally, it's usually because of poor start/terrible circumstances/really difficult major etc. followed by a sustained 4.0 upswing in later semesters and postbac. These guys usually have a lot stronger ECs than high GPA/low MCAT folks, so as such, they usually get accepted into the much better schools.

 

[northernlights15]

Top 20-30 schools tend to favor low GPA (~3.3-3.5) and high MCAT (>38). The lower tier seems to favor high GPA (>3.8) and low MCAT (~28-30) (I don't know why, it doesn't even make sense).

Low GPA/high MCAT may give the notion of being "smart but lazy", but personally, it's usually because of poor start/terrible circumstances/really difficult major etc. followed by a sustained 4.0 upswing in later semesters and postbac. These guys usually have a lot stronger ECs than high GPA/low MCAT folks, so as such, they usually get accepted into the much better schools.

Oh sheeeesh, I hope that's the case! My case is exactly what you described. My GPA is relatively lowerish but I have a decent upward trend.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I think it depends which school you get that low GPA from too.

 

[northernlights15]

I think it depends which school you get that low GPA from too.

I hope that doesn't carry that much significant weight. I go to a n0-name school.

 

[Lawpy]

Oh sheeeesh, I hope that's the case! My case is exactly what you described. My GPA is relatively lowerish but I have a decent upward trend.

Some evidence from AAMC data show that high GPA/low MCAT has a slight advantage over low GPA/high MCAT. That's usually because the lower-tier schools tend to outnumber the top tiers and thus are more willing to accept the high GPA/low MCAT folks (because of fear of being used or shutted out by the "smart but lazy" low GPA/high MCAT folks).

Ideally, it's best to have both a high GPA and a high MCAT, but the low GPA/high MCAT has numerous understandable advantages and have a lot stronger applicants than the high GPA/low MCAT group.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Some evidence from AAMC data show that high GPA/low MCAT has a slight advantage over low GPA/high MCAT. That's usually because the lower-tier schools tend to outnumber the top tiers and thus are more willing to accept the high GPA/low MCAT folks (because of fear of being used or shutted out by the "smart but lazy" low GPA/high MCAT folks).

Ideally, it's best to have both a high GPA and a high MCAT, but the low GPA/high MCAT has numerous understandable advantages and have a lot stronger applicants than the high GPA/low MCAT group.

How would someone with a high GPA/MCAT >30 but <38 fare? I'm taking the MCAT this summer and I don't really see myself getting an outlandish MCAT score but I'm confident it could be solid.

 

[Lawpy]

How would someone with a high GPA/MCAT >30 but <38 fare? I'm taking the MCAT this summer and I don't really see myself getting an outlandish MCAT score but I'm confident it could be solid.

An MCAT score between 30 and 38 is considered to be a very good/strong MCAT score, assuming all the subsections are balanced. With a high GPA supplemented, you have a very strong chance of an MD acceptance.

 

[Goro]

None of them.

Invest in MSAR Online to see the 10-90th %iles for GPA range.

I know there's a lot of talk about schools that prefer high GPAs versus schools that prefer high MCATs (and are therefore more giving of a relatively lower GPA)?

What schools are they?

My gpa is not in a terrible place but I'm going to try my best to accept the damage, not mope about it anymore, try my best in the rest of my classes (aka get a 4.0) and make the MCAT my bitch!

I'm going to invest a lot of time studying for it. I predict if I follow through with my plan I will do well.

So yeah, I was wondering if you guys had an inkling about what schools might favor high MCATs? or if you guys had any anecdotes about low GPA/high mcat acceptances?

Thanks!

 

[Lawpy]

None of them.

Invest in MSAR Online to see the 10-90th %iles for GPA range.

I agree with consulting the MSAR, but to be fair, there is a much smaller pool of low GPA/high MCAT applicants compared to a massive pool of high GPA/low MCAT applicants. Simply because anyone can get a 4.0 by crusing with an easy major and/or at a school with a massive grade inflation... and tank the MCAT. But... it's very very difficult for a layman to score >38 on the MCAT.

Like I said previously, the low GPA/high MCAT applicants tend to be overall much stronger candidates and shouldn't be punished from having a poor start when they likely never even thought about medicine in the first place. So, it would be harsh if none of the schools like low GPA/high MCAT applicants.

 

[Goro]

The lower GPA applicants are, I surmise, people with good rising trends and/or GPA repair via post-bac or SMP.

I agree with consulting the MSAR, but to be fair, there is a much smaller pool of low GPA/high MCAT applicants compared to a massive pool of high GPA/low MCAT applicants. Simply because anyone can get a 4.0 by crusing with an easy major and/or at a school with a massive grade inflation... and tank the MCAT. But... it's very very difficult for a layman to score >38 on the MCAT.

Like I said previously, the low GPA/high MCAT applicants tend to be overall much stronger candidates and shouldn't be punished from having a poor start when they likely never even thought about medicine in the first place. So, it would be harsh if none of the schools like low GPA/high MCAT applicants.

 

[resiroth]

At least for the top 20 it seems most of them forever high GPA and high MCAT. Like they have 3.8 as median GPAs, some of them with 10 percentile of 3.6. Admissions have gotten a bit crazy these days.

 

[allantois]

Top 20-30 schools tend to favor low GPA (~3.3-3.5) and high MCAT (>38). The lower tier seems to favor high GPA (>3.8) and low MCAT (~28-30) (I don't know why, it doesn't even make sense).

Low GPA/high MCAT may give the notion of being "smart but lazy", but personally, it's usually because of poor start/terrible circumstances/really difficult major etc. followed by a sustained 4.0 upswing in later semesters and postbac. These guys usually have a lot stronger ECs than high GPA/low MCAT folks, so as such, they usually get accepted into the much better schools.

Median cGPAs:

Harvard: 3.92
Standford: 3.89
JHU: 3.91
UCSF: 3.84
UPenn: 3.87
WashU: 3.91
Yale: 3.89
Columbia: 3.85
Duke: 3.83
Pritzker: 3.89
Michigan: 3.87
Washington: 3.71
UCLA: 3.78
NYU: 3.87
Vanderbilt: 3.90
Pittsburgh: 3.86
UCSD: 3.81
Cornell: 3.88
Northwestern: 3.89
Mount Sinai: 3.84

 

[Lawpy]

Median cGPAs:

Harvard: 3.92
Standford: 3.89
JHU: 3.91
UCSF: 3.84
UPenn: 3.87
WashU: 3.91
Yale: 3.89
Columbia: 3.85
Duke: 3.83
Pritzker: 3.89
Michigan: 3.87
Washington: 3.71
UCLA: 3.78
NYU: 3.87
Vanderbilt: 3.90
Pittsburgh: 3.86
UCSD: 3.81
Cornell: 3.88
Northwestern: 3.89
Mount Sinai: 3.84

I know that but how many people do we know have a low GPA and high MCAT to begin with? It's fairly uncommon and on top of that, they usually have strong ECs and a 4.0 trend to make up the poor performance.

Regardless of what the medians are, top schools are willing to interview and even accept low GPA/high MCAT applicants rather than high GPA/low MCAT applicants.

EDIT:

From the linked AAMC data, someone with a 3.4 GPA and >36 MCAT has >70% chance of getting into an MD school. In contrast, someone with a 4.0 GPA and 27-29 MCAT has a 61% of MD acceptance.

 

[allantois]

I know that but how many people do we know have a low GPA and high MCAT to begin with? It's fairly uncommon and on top of that, they usually have strong ECs and a 4.0 trend to make up the poor performance.

Regardless of what the medians are, top schools are willing to interview and even accept low GPA/high MCAT applicants rather than high GPA/low MCAT applicants.

What are we arguing exactly? 😵
I am not sure how we can stereotype any given category of applicants. And most of those top 30 schools have 10th percentile GPA at around 3.6.
However you look at it, your chances of admissions increase with higher GPA and increase with higher MCAT.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf

 

[Lawpy]

What are we arguing exactly? 😵
I am not sure how we can stereotype any given category of applicants. And most of those top 30 schools have 10th percentile GPA at around 3.6.
However you look at it, your chances of admissions increase with higher GPA and increase with higher MCAT.

From the linked AAMC data, someone with a 3.4 GPA and >36 MCAT has >70% chance of getting into an MD school. In contrast, someone with a 4.0 GPA and 27-29 MCAT has a 61% of MD acceptance.

I'm saying the low GPA/high MCAT applicants have a stronger chance in acquiring an MD acceptance than high GPA/low MCAT applicants for several reasons.

1. It's uncommon to see low GPA/high MCAT applicants in the first place.
2. Grade inflation and easy majors make it very straightforward to get a 4.0. It's difficult to score >36 on the MCAT.
3. The low GPA/high MCAT applicant pool is strengthened by an upward GPA trend/grade repair etc.
4. The low GPA/high MCAT applicant pool makes sure to have strong ECs to show adcoms that despite their subpar GPA, they remain committed to pursuing medicine.

GPA and MCAT are both important, but in the event we have the discrepancy, the high MCAT defeats the high GPA.

However you look at it, your chances of admissions increase with higher GPA and increase with higher MCAT.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf

I know that. It's essentially like this.

1. High GPA/high MCAT (most preferred)
2. Low GPA/high MCAT (poor start, but nice recovery)
3. High GPA/low MCAT (how do you succeed in boards??)
4. Low GPA/low MCAT (auto-reject)

 

[northernlights15]

What is the estimate 10th percentile sGPA range for the top 20-30 schools? I have yet to buy the MSAR...

 

[allantois]

I know that. It's essentially like this.

1. High GPA/high MCAT (most preferred)
2. Low GPA/high MCAT (poor start, but nice recovery)
3. High GPA/low MCAT (how do you succeed in boards??)
4. Low GPA/low MCAT (auto-reject)

What is low on MCAT?
A more fair comparison would be GPA 3.4 w/ 36 MCAT and GPA 4.0 w/ 30 MCAT,
which would correspond to 69.6 to 76% chance of admissions.

Taking the same MCAT and GPA ranges, there is no difference whatsoever in the odds of passing Step 1 with the first attempt, that is 98% for both.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf
(page 18)

 

[Lawpy]

What is low on MCAT?
A more fair comparison would be GPA 3.4 w/ 36 MCAT and GPA 4.0 w/ 30 MCAT,
which would correspond to 69.6 to 76% change of admissions.

Taking the same MCAT and GPA ranges, there is no difference whatsoever in the odds of passing Step 1 with the first attempt, that is 98% for both.

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf
(page 18)

But a 30 isn't low. A 27-29 is.

And obviously, the board passing rate is near 100 because the low MCAT guy got into med school at that point. I'm taking the application process itself

 

[northernlights15]

Why did you pick that username? @allantois I've taken dev bio and the function of an allantois is essentially excretion from my understanding of it

 

[allantois]

But a 30 isn't low. A 27-29 is.

A 3.4 is not doomed either. A 2.9 is

 

[Lawpy]

A 3.4 is not doomed either. A 2.9 is

Yes by being screened out automatically. The comparison is very rough, but a GPA equivalent of a 30 is a 3.6 (comparing national MD averages). A GPA equivalent of a 27 is a 3.4 (comparing national DO averages). It's rough but the intent is clear

 

[allantois]

Why did you pick that username? @allantois I've taken dev bio and the function of an allantois is essentially excretion from my understanding of it

I liked how my professor pronounced it (which is apparently not how you pronounce it!)

It sounded something like "allantua"

 

[northernlights15]

I liked how my professor pronounced it (which is apparently not how you pronounce it!)

It sounded something like "allantua"

Oh interesting. My professor pronounced it "allantoy-is."

 

[northernlights15]

Just in case you all missed it, do you guys know what the 10th percentile sGPA ranges are at the top 30s??

 

[Mad Jack]

Top 20-30 schools tend to favor low GPA (~3.3-3.5) and high MCAT (>38). The lower tier seems to favor high GPA (>3.8) and low MCAT (~28-30) (I don't know why, it doesn't even make sense).

Low GPA/high MCAT may give the notion of being "smart but lazy", but personally, it's usually because of poor start/terrible circumstances/really difficult major etc. followed by a sustained 4.0 upswing in later semesters and postbac. These guys usually have a lot stronger ECs than high GPA/low MCAT folks, so as such, they usually get accepted into the much better schools.

The reason top 20-30 schools seem to favor lower GPAs in some instances is that they tend to select more heavily for people that are from more demanding universities and majors. This had nothing to do with stereotypes or whatever- they're selecting very, very hardworking people that were in programs that are GPA crushers, often that tended to do research and ECs on top of their difficult majors.

No schools like high MCATs and low GPAs. Some schools will tolerate them if you have the right major or alma mater. Generally, you need both- not a high GPA+low MCAT or high MCAT+low GPA. You need a high GPA and high MCAT if you want to go MD without facing an uphill battle, unless you've got some crazy good ECs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Just in case you all missed it, do you guys know what the 10th percentile sGPA ranges are at the top 30s??

It widely varies.

 

[allantois]

Just in case you all missed it, do you guys know what the 10th percentile sGPA ranges are at the top 30s??

If you are applying next cycle, it's worth the investment and is good for a year.

 

[northernlights15]

Yeah I will probably buy it after finals. I'm just curious. Kinda tanked some of my science finals so my sGPA took a hit this semester...

 

[ridethecliche]

Lawper, I feel like you're just making things up now. A 30 isn't 'good' it's about average for matriculating students.

Just in case you all missed it, do you guys know what the 10th percentile sGPA ranges are at the top 30s??

Just
Buy
The
Damn
MSAR

 

[Lawpy]

Lawper, I feel like you're just making things up now. A 30 isn't 'good' it's about average for matriculating students.



Just
Buy
The
Damn
MSAR

I said a 30 isn't low (unlike a 27-29). And a score between 30 and 38, which i'm referring to a 34-37 range, is a good score.

 

[ridethecliche]

I said a 30 isn't low (unlike a 27-29). And a score between 30 and 38, which i'm referring to a 34-37 range, is a good score.

Well why didn't you give the sub range to begin with?

Also the top 20-30 schools comment was out of nowhere. Their grades aren't all that much lower if at all.

 

[Lawpy]

Well why didn't you give the sub range to begin with?

Are you referring to this?

But a 30 isn't low. A 27-29 is.

Also the top 20-30 schools comment was out of nowhere. Their grades aren't all that much lower if at all.

I know. Hence:

1. High GPA/high MCAT (most preferred)
2. Low GPA/high MCAT (poor start, but nice recovery)
3. High GPA/low MCAT (how do you succeed in boards??)
4. Low GPA/low MCAT (auto-reject)

1. It's uncommon to see low GPA/high MCAT applicants in the first place.

 

[efle]

Answering this really depends on how high is high MCAT, and how low is low GPA.

Among schools with 35+ median mcats, there are only six with 10th percentile cGPA's below 3.50 (lowest being 3.40) and they are:

Keck School of Med at Uni Southern California
UC Los Angeles Geffen School of Medicine
Ohio State University College of Medicine
Emory University School of Med
Boston University School of Medicine
Duke University School of Med

With 10th percentiles 3.50-3.60:

University of Virginia School of Medicine
Case Western Reserve School of Med
UC San Diego School of Medicine
University of Pittsburgh School of Med
UC San Francisco School of Medicine
Columbia University College of Physicians
University of Michigan Medical School

 

[GrapesofRath]

You know what top schools favor? Top GPAs and Top MCAT Scores. I don't think people realize how low the tenth percentile is; those with sub 3.5 GPAs who attend top schools almost always are either a) URMS b) go to top 10 caliber undergrad schools c) have higher grades in pre req classes d) a big upward trend/a dip early in college that can be explained by something really unforseen or out of their control that is then followed up by at least 2 years of exceptional grades e) something that really really stands out about them(not the best example but multiple first author papers type of stand out level). Honestly many have more than one of those 5 things I listed and this is addition to an exceptional MCAT score.

With Dental School and Law School and other type of Grad Schools there are definitely trends in the data you can pick up on to see which school's favor high GPA and which favor high test scores. That's not really the case to near the same degree when talking about med schools. I'm sure someone on here will talk about how private schools with top MCAT averages( 35+) don't have that much higher GPAs than many state schools with much lower MCAT averages(30-32). They'll say that points to a trend of private schools favoring higher MCATs with lower GPAs. That's a flawed interpretation. The proportion of students who went to top undergraduate schools with harder grading is much higher at Johns Hopkins/Harvard than Penn State.

 

[publichealthguy]

Good Q, OP. I think @efle 's post (which is supported by data) gives you a good list. Anecdotally, I had a strong MCAT and a 3.5-6ish GPA, and most of my interviews came from schools that the almighty USNews ranks 20-30. In addition to the schools in efle's post, I would consider placing UNC, Iowa, and Wisconsin on your list of high MCAT/low GPA-friendly schools (obviously, being out of state is tough, but it can happen.) Otherwise, just apply broadly, like everyone says, and prepare to be surprised. A few other high applicant-volume schools, including Tulane and Tufts, threw me a bone, but schools to which I have some (slight) connection (MCW, Rush, Loyola) did not invite me to interview. Unless you have both a stellar GPA and an exceptional MCAT, this process is extremely hard to predict. Make sure that you're EC's are absolutely outstanding. When paired with your nice, shiny MCAT score, good EC's might make adcoms more likely to look past a lackluster GPA.

 

[baratheonfire]

You know what top schools favor? Top GPAs and Top MCAT Scores. I don't think people realize how low the tenth percentile is; those with sub 3.5 GPAs who attend top schools almost always are either a) URMS b) go to top 10 caliber undergrad schools c) have higher grades in pre req classes d) a big upward trend/a dip early in college that can be explained by something really unforseen or out of their control that is then followed up by at least 2 years of exceptional grades e) something that really really stands out about them(not the best example but multiple first author papers type of stand out level). Honestly many have more than one of those 5 things I listed and this is addition to an exceptional MCAT score.

With Dental School and Law School and other type of Grad Schools there are definitely trends in the data you can pick up on to see which school's favor high GPA and which favor high test scores. That's not really the case to near the same degree when talking about med schools. I'm sure someone on here will talk about how private schools with top MCAT averages( 35+) don't have that much higher GPAs than many state schools with much lower MCAT averages(30-32). They'll say that points to a trend of private schools favoring higher MCATs with lower GPAs. That's a flawed interpretation. The proportion of students who went to top undergraduate schools with harder grading is much higher at Johns Hopkins/Harvard than Penn State.

Lol I see you on here all the time, did you even get into med school yet

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

 

[Mwooster]

Lol I see you on here all the time, did you even get into med school yet

Not gonna lie I have been wondering about this too

 

[BluMist]

I don't think so, though from his post, he definitely knows what he's talking about. I'd like to think he will be changing his status in the near future.

Not gonna lie I have been wondering about this too

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

I dont think Grapes is applying this cycle, although am not sure

 

[Doug Underhill]

There are no schools that prefer lower GPA, although Virginia Tech and Tulane have been known to extend lots of IIs towards the 3.6/35 bracket.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

There are no schools that prefer lower GPA, although Virginia Tech and Tulane have been known to extend lots of IIs towards the 3.6/35 bracket.

Was accepted to both of these schools with a 3.4/3.2/35!

It is my personal and anecdotal opinion that newer schools are also fond of the low GPA high MCAT pool. This could be due to a bunch of factors like wanting to tout a high average MCAT to improve perceived competitiveness and hope that high MCAT scorers will be less likely to fail the boards since that would be a big problem for a new school. The reasoning is only speculation but the effect is visible at places like Hofstra and FAU

 

[GrapesofRath]

I dont think Grapes is applying this cycle, although am not sure

Correct next cycle in all likelihood for me.