schools that OVERaccept

[drmota]

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someone explain something to me> most schools OVERaccept, e.g. giving out 200 acceptances for a class with 120 spots. but when you put your $100/$500 deposit down, aren't you RESERVING a spot in the class? does this imply that they overbook the class and then wait for it to dwindle back down to 120? please explain this so the voices in my head will subside. thanks
-mota

 

[unfrozencaveman]

That's pretty much it. Not everyone accepted is going to take a spot in the class in the end. If a school requires an immediate deposit to hold a place, lots of people hold places at different schools. Then people drop down to 1 on may 15, and schools use their waitlists to make up the difference.

 

[golftrippy]

someone explain something to me> most schools OVERaccept, e.g. giving out 200 acceptances for a class with 120 spots. but when you put your $100/$500 deposit down, aren't you RESERVING a spot in the class? does this imply that they overbook the class and then wait for it to dwindle back down to 120? please explain this so the voices in my head will subside. thanks
-mota

Yep, thats exactly what they do. For example, half way through their interview season, Brown has already accepted 38 for 20 spots...schools can rely on past statistics to ensure that they don't overbook their class so while it is possible that they could run into a problem with everyone matriculating, it is very very statistically unlikely.

 

[drmota]

so, going with my example, once 120 people have sent in a deposit and the class is full, they stop sending acceptances and start sending waitlists? or do they continue to send acceptances even though there are no spots left?
-mota

 

[Law2Doc]

Yep, thats exactly what they do. For example, half way through their interview season, Brown has already accepted 38 for 20 spots...schools can rely on past statistics to ensure that they don't overbook their class so while it is possible that they could run into a problem with everyone matriculating, it is very very statistically unlikely.

In fact, even with overaccepting, many schools still have to admit people off the waitlist as late as the first day of class to ensure a full class.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

That's pretty much it. Not everyone accepted is going to take a spot in the class in the end. If a school requires an immediate deposit to hold a place, lots of people hold places at different schools. Then people drop down to 1 on may 15, and schools use their waitlists to make up the difference.

The only assurance that schools have that people are going to be in the class is who shows up on the first day. Especially when the deposits are only $100. DO schools fight this by making the deposits much higher- some are even $2,000. Regardless, schools accept more people to ensure that their classes are filled.

This is a HUGE problem with undergrad schools. People accept spots at many places and decide the day before orientation which they are going to go to.

 

[BerkeleyMD]

some schools over accept, others don't. VCU never exceeds it expected enrollment at anytime in the process- so they never have an issue with over-enrollment. but some schools, like UIC last year, do over-accept and if that means that more people enroll- they have to honor it. but situations like that are rare.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

so, going with my example, once 120 people have sent in a deposit and the class is full, they stop sending acceptances and start sending waitlists? or do they continue to send acceptances even though there are no spots left?
-mota

No, they continue to offer acceptances until they have the number of offers out that experience tells them they need. With 120 seats, if historically 50% of a school's offers result in a matriculation, they'll make 200 acceptances - then when they have around 100 who haven't requested a deposit refund on May 15, they'll starting taking people off the waitlist until they have 120. If they have a few more than 100 people after May 15 - fewer people come off the waitlist and vice versa.

So... yes, acceptances are just exactly like an overbooked flight - they sell more tickets than they have seats for. It works well as long as the model of past experience is accurate.

 

[ShyRem]

I know of only one school that does NOT overaccept - VCU. Once they have 184 acceptances out, everyone else goes on the waitlist. Anyone know of any others?

 

[drmota]

No, they continue to offer acceptances until they have the number of offers out that experience tells them they need. With 120 seats, if historically 50% of a school's offers result in a matriculation, they'll make 200 acceptances - then when they have around 100 who haven't requested a deposit refund on May 15, they'll starting taking people off the waitlist until they have 120. If they have a few more than 100 people after May 15 - fewer people come off the waitlist and vice versa.

So... yes, acceptances are just exactly like an overbooked flight - they sell more tickets than they have seats for. It works well as long as the model of past experience is accurate.

awesome. thats the explanation i was looking for. thanks
-mota

 

[ShyRem]

Didn't some school have a problem with it last year though? MSU, I think? They overaccepted, but more people than normal actually decided to matriculate. They had to increase their incoming class size by something like 12-20 spots.

 

[Law2Doc]

So... yes, acceptances are just exactly like an overbooked flight - they sell more tickets than they have seats for. It works well as long as the model of past experience is accurate.

Not exactly the same -- airlines that overbook flights cannot assume that a substantial chunk of those who paid for a ticket are actually holding multiple tickets -- the schools can (and after a certain date can know this for a certainty). In both cases the parties are banking on no-shows, but in the school's case, they have a much more predictable historical trend model, and a finite pool of potential matriculants, who they know quite a lot of detail about. Lets them do smart statistical analysis if they so choose. Airlines have no realistic model to tell them that on a specific flight there will be eg. 10% no-shows, they know nothing about their passengers and their likelihood of showing up, they are simply gambling.

 

[golftrippy]

I know of only one school that does NOT overaccept - VCU. Once they have 184 acceptances out, everyone else goes on the waitlist. Anyone know of any others?

Wake Forest does not over-accept

 

[MollyMalone]

Didn't some school have a problem with it last year though? MSU, I think? They overaccepted, but more people than normal actually decided to matriculate. They had to increase their incoming class size by something like 12-20 spots.

UWisc also had this problem, I think it was last year. They underestimated the drawing power of their awesome new facilities. They wound up offering a year's free tuition to anyone who would defer, and still had a larger class than they had planned.

 

[medicomel]

is there a certain number of waitlist spots, or do they just keep handing them out so they'll have a larger pool from which to select should the need arise? sorry if this is a stupid question, but i'm kind of stupid about this process 😕

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Didn't some school have a problem with it last year though? MSU, I think? They overaccepted, but more people than normal actually decided to matriculate. They had to increase their incoming class size by something like 12-20 spots.

yeah, kcumb actually offered people full scholarships if they were willing to postpone their enrollment by a year or even two years because more people accepted their offer than they expected. you can do a search for it in the osteopathic forum. i believe cooldreams got one of those scholarships. dmu also had a larger class than they anticipated either last year or the year before, but i think they just dealt with it. i guess it's a risk that all schools run (well, except vcu).

 

[DCHHopeful2012]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

 

[Comrade]

Didn't some school have a problem with it last year though? MSU, I think? They overaccepted, but more people than normal actually decided to matriculate. They had to increase their incoming class size by something like 12-20 spots.

U Michigan over-accepted last year, or more accurately, too many acceptees accepted. They had to enlarge their class to 177 students when they were shooting for 170. So this year, they increased the number of people they waitlist by ~50.

 

[Elastase]

The University of Michigan overaccepted last year also (I think about 5-10). They accept about 300+ for a class of 170 with nobody being accepted off the waitlist. They base the number accepted on statistics from past years. They overshoot it by a lot and ended up having to take in the extra students. This year they are being a lot more conservative about acceptances, so some students might be taken off the waitlist.

 

[jebus]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

Well, public schools use money from the state legislature to subsidize tuition - that's why public schools cost in-state residents less than private schools. So part of the problem is because of reticence by state legislatures. Officials get elected by saying "I built a new state highway from bumble**** to ****sville! Vote for me!" They don't get elected by saying "I'm giving money to educate 50 more med school students who may or may not practice in our state! Vote for me!"
Also, educating students requires a place to educate them. Facilities have a finite space: lecture halls, anatomy labs, faculty, teaching assistants, supplies all cost money and take up room. So, you need to plan ahead to increase the carrying capacity of your facilities. Expanding facilities takes time. And that also takes money.
The doctor shortage is real, I won't deny that. But the nursing shortage is even worse. And there is a huge disparity in the numbers of male and female nurses and nursing students. It may simply be that with finite funds and finite space schools choose to increase the number of nursing students now and will look to increase the number of med school students in the future.... Who knows.

 

[golftrippy]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

Well schools are responding to this actually...many schools (including Brown) have actually increased their class sizes to respond. For example, Brown is increasing from around 65 two years ago to 100 in the next few years. 20 spots for Brown are for their standard applicants--there will be ~75-80 in Brown's actual first year class.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

(e.g. 20 spots for Brown!?

most of their class = pleemees, that's why they don't have space for more people. they have this 8 year med program there called the PLME which generates most of their students. of course, these people figured out that since they're (statistically speaking) god's gift to earth, they don't need to stay at brown, and instead move on to HMS, etc. that's why only in recent years did Brown open up spaces. and brown med isn't that great.

ALSO, it costs a TON of money to educate a medical student, much more than the $40k tuition students pay.

 

[golftrippy]

most of their class = pleemees, that's why they don't have space for more people. they have this 8 year med program there called the PLME which generates most of their students. of course, these people figured out that since they're (statistically speaking) god's gift to earth, they don't need to stay at brown, and instead move on to HMS, etc. that's why only in recent years did Brown open up spaces. and brown med isn't that great.

ALSO, it costs a TON of money to educate a medical student, much more than the $40k tuition students pay.

Actually thats not why Brown opened up spaces...it was to increase enrollment, diversity and their ranking...only a few PLME's apply out every year only 1-2 out of 55. And Brown med may not have an amazing ranking because of its unique programs but its consistently top match list will demonstrate that it is a great med school....anon-y-mouse I'm having to clean up after you a lot today... 😉

 

[the brown note]

Apparently, UIC had too many acceptees accept spots last year, and had to increase their class size from ~304 to 333.

Here's a link to an AAMC press release, stating some increased class sizes of various schools for 2005 (unfortunately, it does NOT state the reasons for the increases, nor does it state if these increases are expected to be maintained for this year): http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2005/applicants.pdf

SIU is very careful with regulating the number of acceptances it releases (they have a post-interview, pre-acceptance tiered system), and doesn't overaccept.

In addition to limited resources, one school told us during the interview day that they can't enroll over a certain number of students because their accreditation only allows them to have no more than a particular number of students (kinda like the "Max Cap" number you see in restaurants 😉 ).

 

[LizzyM]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

The limiting factor is, usually, slots for clinical training. You can always add a few chairs to a lecture hall, the marginal cost of adding one student is puny. However, when you need to place students in clinical rotations you run into a wall.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Actually thats not why Brown opened up spaces...it was to increase enrollment, diversity and their ranking...only a few PLME's apply out every year only 1-2 out of 55. And Brown med may not have an amazing ranking because of its unique programs but its consistently top match list will demonstrate that it is a great med school....anon-y-mouse I'm having to clean up after you a lot today... 😉

hahaha okay okay! I lose.
I actually taught a PLME guy in my MCAT class (not at Brown) and a couple of my friends in PLME are wanting to transfer out... so I suppose that's 3 people. Clearly not 'a lot' but that's where I got my anecdotal evidence from. Thanks for setting me straight 🙂

I'm not a Brunonian, but when I went for "A Day on College Hill" (the undergrad accepted students weekend), I got some pretty awesome ice cream... and then my student host proceeded to toke up with his entire floor. (that was kind of funny). Brown students seem pretty easygoing overall, not sure about the med.

 

[golftrippy]

hahaha okay okay! I lose.
I actually taught a PLME guy in my MCAT class (not at Brown) and a couple of my friends in PLME are wanting to transfer out... so I suppose that's 3 people. Clearly not 'a lot' but that's where I got my anecdotal evidence from. Thanks for setting me straight 🙂

Yeah I just wanted to give you a little s**t cause I actually asked the question of how many transfered out to an adcom member just because I knew it would determine the number of standards admitted and because I really like Brown and think its a great place. That being said, I know where you are coming from too. PLME at Brown is the most competitive undergraduate admissions program in the country requiring at least 1520 SAT and top 1% of class so of course there are people who feel like they need to go to HMS afterward, and I'm sure a lot think about it but most probably stay because Brown is "good enough" for them and they don't have to take the MCAT, worry about grades, go through this year of hell.

 

[thegenius]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

Precisely. We then have to import doctors from foreign countries to make up for the shortage. We have able, willing bodies in the United States who will be successful in medical school. But we only have limited spots.

Wayne State Univ. has increased their size for the 2010 class to 300. That's the largest in the nation as far as I know.

 

[silas2642]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

I think that a lot of it has to do with how much time and money go into training a physician. It's not an easy thing. It requires not only a lot of class time but also time in the hospital in small groups working intimately with other doctors as an apprentice. I think schools are more concerned with churning out quality physicians rather than a large quantity of them.

That being said, I've heard that there are three new osteopathic schools opening in the near future. One of the problems that DO students seem to be worried about is that there aren't enough residency positions for this sudden increase in class size. They are also worried that these schools are opening for the money and will accept and train sub-par physicians as a result.

Brown is pretty tiny, but I've heard that they are planning on expanding their class size to about 100 in the next few years. Likewise, I've heard that MD schools will be expanding their class size by 10-15% over the next few years in order to keep up with the demand of physicians.

 

[ahumdinger]

someone explain something to me> most schools OVERaccept, e.g. giving out 200 acceptances for a class with 120 spots. but when you put your $100/$500 deposit down, aren't you RESERVING a spot in the class? does this imply that they overbook the class and then wait for it to dwindle back down to 120? please explain this so the voices in my head will subside. thanks
-mota

I came to the same realization a while back, mainly because I was wondering how a school predicts the changes in applicant interest from year to year. For example, WashU usually gives out about 2 time the number of spots in the class because they have a little trouble wrestling the top students from Harvard and Hopkins. But this year, they just finished building a brand new teaching center, so presumably a lot more students would be attracted by what WashU has to offer, so I am wondering if they will give out fewer acceptances this year. Then, I encountered university of missouri's acceptance procedure, which guarantees a class of 96 every year, no more, no less. What they do is accept a pre-determined number of students each month (i'm assuming it's 96 divided by however many meetings they have), most people out of this original 96 will not accept the offer in the end, but the adcom doesn't start filling out the rest of the class until the very end, from the waitlist, accepting someone else each time an offer gets rejected. This way, there is no way they can overaccept. It seems like this would be the most logical way to go about it, but I suppose that with all the competition to get the best students, schools don't want to run the risk of waiting so long to notify the students, lest they be snatched by another school. But so many students hold out till the end anyway, it might work. Someone else mentioned the cost of overaccepting, and I think that plays a huge role. Schools like WashU can afford to fluctuate from year to year-- last year they accepted 30 something MSTPs because they were all qualified. At $25k a pop, that's a lot of extra stipend money they have to find, but they can afford it. UM-Columbia, on the other hand, is small and its resources are limited, so they can only handle 96 a year.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

Because the number of allopathic training spots in the US is an incredibly political issue. A lot of practicing physicians remember times when jobs in the most desirable cities were not always immediately available, and a lot of pressure was put on the medical establishment not to increase seats. The shortage had to be obvious and large to get the AAMC to admit that not enough physicians are being trained. As for postgraduate training, that involves federal funding so that's a whole political issue in itself. I am glad that the shortage has finally been acknowledged, and I'm certainly glad to offer my services 🙂 . As for the physician shortage, in my opinion it's here now and going to get worse. The oldest baby boomers are just starting to retire, and there are not enough primary care docs for the current demand. Perhaps someday soon primary care will pay a little better relative to the subspecialties.

 

[45408]

UWisc also had this problem, I think it was last year. They underestimated the drawing power of their awesome new facilities. They wound up offering a year's free tuition to anyone who would defer, and still had a larger class than they had planned.

yep. I think the MS1 class has 162, and they only intended on having 150.

 

[diosa428]

UMass does not over accept. Once the have 100 students who accepted their acceptance, everyone else goes on the waitlist.

 

[DrThom]

Wake Forest does not over-accept

Yes, they do.

Our class of 108 ended up with 112 people come the start of term. Some groups of six had to be groups of seven during anatomy.

 

[ghostchild]

Because the number of allopathic training spots in the US is an incredibly political issue. A lot of practicing physicians remember times when jobs in the most desirable cities were not always immediately available, and a lot of pressure was put on the medical establishment not to increase seats. The shortage had to be obvious and large to get the AAMC to admit that not enough physicians are being trained. As for postgraduate training, that involves federal funding so that's a whole political issue in itself. I am glad that the shortage has finally been acknowledged, and I'm certainly glad to offer my services 🙂 . As for the physician shortage, in my opinion it's here now and going to get worse. The oldest baby boomers are just starting to retire, and there are not enough primary care docs for the current demand. Perhaps someday soon primary care will pay a little better relative to the subspecialties.

Might be a dumb question but here it goes. If there is a physician shortage and the solution is to train more physicians to treat all the baby boomers, what will happen 20 yrs from now when large numbers of baby boomers have passed on and these schools are still churning out physicians on a high speed assembly line? Won't there be too many physicians with med school still accepting a high number of applicants. I doubt many schools will want to shut down or decrease class size because of the tuition $$. But couldn't this result in high numbers of physician unemployment years from now? (Not for us because of our years of experience but for others that may follow)

 

[Dr Trek 1]

Might be a dumb question but here it goes. If there is a physician shortage and the solution is to train more physicians to treat all the baby boomers, what will happen 20 yrs from now when large numbers of baby boomers have passed on and these schools are still churning out physicians on a high speed assembly line? Won't there be too many physicians with med school still accepting a high number of applicants. I doubt many schools will want to shut down or decrease class size because of the tuition $$. But couldn't this result in high numbers of physician unemployment years from now? (Not for us because of our years of experience but for others that may follow)

People are living longer and longer. The need for physicians and health care professionals will only increase in the future. Even if all diseases are cured (which I don't foresee happening any time soon), there is still a need for physicians. Generation X and Generation Y will live much longer than even the Baby Boomer generation.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

Also, populations won't go down. The "Gen X" was smaller than the baby boom generation, but there was an "Echo Boom"-- the babies of baby boomers (us pretty much), which I think is just as big.

 

[ghostchild]

Also, populations won't go down. The "Gen X" was smaller than the baby boom generation, but there was an "Echo Boom"-- the babies of baby boomers (us pretty much), which I think is just as big.

Good point that is true. Future generations will also hopefully have higher percentages of individuals insured and able to have a doctor.
-Yes that is one of the strange things I remembered from class, the US age distribution graph is high at the top and bottom and skinny in the middle.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Might be a dumb question but here it goes. If there is a physician shortage and the solution is to train more physicians to treat all the baby boomers, what will happen 20 yrs from now when large numbers of baby boomers have passed on and these schools are still churning out physicians on a high speed assembly line? Won't there be too many physicians with med school still accepting a high number of applicants. I doubt many schools will want to shut down or decrease class size because of the tuition $$. But couldn't this result in high numbers of physician unemployment years from now? (Not for us because of our years of experience but for others that may follow)

Not a dumb question at all. Schools may not want to decrease class sizes, but Congress can pretty much force them to if they cut funding for residency positions - it's happened before. All of this tight regulation seems very heavy-handed, but you have to admit that temporary oversupplies of physicians have never been vast, as they have been in other professions. Although I agree with Dr. Trek and unfrozen - there was a baby-boom echo that I think will keep the next generation of physicians busy. Except me - I'm starting medical school at 44 and I'll be 51 when I finish a 3-year residency - so I'll treat the baby-boomers through their old age and then, after 15 or perhaps 20 years, I'll ride off into the sunset - a happy retired physician. That's why I think we older non-trads are a great match with the demand right now - I'm only going to practice 20 years!

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

I'm starting medical school at 44 and I'll be 51 when I finish a 3-year residency - so I'll treat the baby-boomers through their old age and then, after 15 or perhaps 20 years, I'll ride off into the sunset - a happy retired physician. That's why I think we older non-trads are a great match with the demand right now - I'm only going to practice 20 years!

That's really amazing. Props to you. I'd love to go to a diverse school where I can be classmates with people as old as my parents, seriously.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

That's really amazing. Props to you. I'd love to go to a diverse school where I can be classmates with people as old as my parents, seriously.

(Head down on desk...) Thanks. Honest. LOL! Seriously, I've greatly enjoyed attending premed classes with traditional applicants. I'm not sure I could have done this whole premed/MCAT thing 20 years ago (grad school was a breeze compared to the MCAT), and it's been great to be accepted as a peer. You guys are an amazing generation. Any student who makes references to how close I am to his parents' age, however, will be sent to bed early with no dessert. 😛

 

[Dr Trek 1]

That's really amazing. Props to you. I'd love to go to a diverse school where I can be classmates with people as old as my parents, seriously.

I agree! Non-trad, would you mind posting your specs, previous career before med school, etc? I'd be very interested to know what got you interested in medicine at ~40. Thanks!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

I agree! Non-trad, would you mind posting your specs, previous career before med school, etc? I'd be very interested to know what got you interested in medicine at ~40. Thanks!

Sure. I'm a Certified Public Accountant - I received my BS/Acctg in 1983 and my MS/Acctg (in taxation, no less) in 1984. I practiced in tax for a year and hated it - I wound up working a temp job at a new HMO in 1985 and have been in healthcare ever since. Ten years ago I spent a couple of years managing a residents' clinic for a medical school. My supervisors (the attendings) noticed my interest in medicine and strongly encouraged me to consider medical school - they even let me attend resident lectures when time permitted (I also got to teach residents about healthcare billing, which was fun). I think the idea of giving-up my whole life to start over scared me too much back then - I went to work for a hospital where I'm an in-house consultant - whenever the hospital wants to build something or buy something, I research the project, run numbers, and write reports. My projects get me out with the clinical staff and it's a lot of fun.

I knew I wanted to be a doctor ten years ago, but I honestly wasn't sure a CPA could have the "right stuff." But I spent some time working in patient care as a non-skilled technician as part of a hospital volunteer program - and was hooked for good. I also looked after for my elderly parents (who had me late in life) and found that nothing was more rewarding. When my dad died almost three years ago, I realized that I could still do whatever I wanted to do with my life - but time was growing short.

So - I finished all my prereqs in night school in 16 months. My BCPM is a 4.00 with 65 hours (including some post-graduate computer science work I did) and my overall UG is a 3.93. MCAT was a 32R. I thought I was a great candidate, but apparently not everyone was happy to see me coming. The University of Oklahoma, however, admitted me this month with a freshman scholarship. I am so proud of OU - they gave me a level playing field to compete on, and I felt very welcome - and treated like anyone else. I've met my classmates on SDN and at the interview and they're great people. I can't wait to go to school there.

I'll finish residency at age 51. Oddly enough, my dad was 51 when he finished law school. He'd been an engineer for over 20 years when he decided on law - so he was one sharp patent attorney. I think he'd approve of what I'm doing.

You must have an interesting story, too. Thanks for letting me go off-topic to share.

 

[jebus]

Also, populations won't go down. The "Gen X" was smaller than the baby boom generation, but there was an "Echo Boom"-- the babies of baby boomers (us pretty much), which I think is just as big.

Yeah, the US forecast to grow to about 450 Million by 2050. While the birth rate is pretty much at replacement rate, the growth is expected to come from immigration. But they will need plenty of people to provide medical care: http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=US&out=s&ymax=250
What other people are talking about, a huge elderly population with a small youth population and an overall reduction in population, is what's happening in Japan: here's some pics describing it. http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbpyrs.pl?cty=JA&out=s&ymax=250
The real problem is that as people age they exit the work force - so the federal revenue goes down. At the same time their dependence on social services increases - welfare, medicare, etc. Japan's problem is they won't have enough revenue to provide these and they won't allow other people to immigrate - they fear diluting their culture. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with it.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

I thought I was a great candidate, but apparently not everyone was happy to see me coming.

Who wasn't happy? Med schools? People around you?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Who wasn't happy? Med schools? People around you?

Sorry - med schools. A lot of people around me have been intensely interested in my applications. I finally realized that it wasn't about me personally - some people seem to find some real inspiration in a story about a complete life change at the beginning of mid-life, so I'm pleased to share the story.

I was a little surprised at the interviews that didn't come (or haven't come yet). I'm biased, but I think my app was good - decent stats, good ECs (I'd been volunteering in the community for years - it's part of the culture at the hospital where I work). I do think age was an issue. It's OK, though - Oklahoma is a very fine school and I can hold my debt down there. I think it was really my first choice anyway.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

Sure. I'm a Certified Public Accountant - I received my BS/Acctg in 1983 and my MS/Acctg (in taxation, no less) in 1984. I practiced in tax for a year and hated it - I wound up working a temp job at a new HMO in 1985 and have been in healthcare ever since. Ten years ago I spent a couple of years managing a residents' clinic for a medical school. My supervisors (the attendings) noticed my interest in medicine and strongly encouraged me to consider medical school - they even let me attend resident lectures when time permitted (I also got to teach residents about healthcare billing, which was fun). I think the idea of giving-up my whole life to start over scared me too much back then - I went to work for a hospital where I'm an in-house consultant - whenever the hospital wants to build something or buy something, I research the project, run numbers, and write reports. My projects get me out with the clinical staff and it's a lot of fun.

I knew I wanted to be a doctor ten years ago, but I honestly wasn't sure a CPA could have the "right stuff." But I spent some time working in patient care as a non-skilled technician as part of a hospital volunteer program - and was hooked for good. I also looked after for my elderly parents (who had me late in life) and found that nothing was more rewarding. When my dad died almost three years ago, I realized that I could still do whatever I wanted to do with my life - but time was growing short.

So - I finished all my prereqs in night school in 16 months. My BCPM is a 4.00 with 65 hours (including some post-graduate computer science work I did) and my overall UG is a 3.93. MCAT was a 32R. I thought I was a great candidate, but apparently not everyone was happy to see me coming. The University of Oklahoma, however, admitted me this month with a freshman scholarship. I am so proud of OU - they gave me a level playing field to compete on, and I felt very welcome - and treated like anyone else. I've met my classmates on SDN and at the interview and they're great people. I can't wait to go to school there.

I'll finish residency at age 51. Oddly enough, my dad was 51 when he finished law school. He'd been an engineer for over 20 years when he decided on law - so he was one sharp patent attorney. I think he'd approve of what I'm doing.

You must have an interesting story, too. Thanks for letting me go off-topic to share.

Thanks for the post! I would think med schools would love an applicant like you. What kind of discrimination did you receive?

 

[zook]

Here's a related question.... I've read somewhere that we expect a shortage of physicians in the future--like maybe twenty years or so--especially with the aging baby boomer generation. Why are class sizes so small? (e.g. 20 spots for Brown!? 100-something for most other schools?) Inadequate facilities? It seems to me, from reading these boards, that many well-qualified and determined people don't get acceptances when we could obviously be training more doctors.

Medical College of Georgia is increasing its class size from 180 to 190 for next year's incoming class. In addition, they also do not overaccept.

 

[njbmd]

someone explain something to me> most schools OVERaccept, e.g. giving out 200 acceptances for a class with 120 spots. but when you put your $100/$500 deposit down, aren't you RESERVING a spot in the class? does this imply that they overbook the class and then wait for it to dwindle back down to 120? please explain this so the voices in my head will subside. thanks
-mota

Hi there,
The main reason for over acceptance is that until May 15th, you may hold multiple acceptances. After May 15, you can have a wait-list and an acceptance but you may not hold multiple acceptances.

That being said, I had six acceptances and had to make a choice. I had pretty much narrowed my choice down to my top three but I ended up sending in deposits (refundable) for four schools. By February, I had narrowed my choice to my top two and released my other acceptances.

By releasing early, I know that I moved someone off a waitlist and into the class. By March, I know exactly where I would be attending and released my other acceptance. It was a difficult decision between my top two schools but a generous financial aid package cemented my choice. (I still think that making a decision between my top two schools was the most difficult choice of my medical career.)

Because others find themselves in the same position, schools over-accept and "front-end load". I guess it is better than not filling your class though I have never heard of this happening. A good Dean of Admissions should have the class filled and few people on the waitlist for back-up.

I remember when the first day of orientation started for my class. There were four people waiting outside the admissions office hoping that someone would not show up and they would be able to take a seat in the class. One very fortunate guy did make it in. 🙂

njbmd 🙂

 

[Dr Trek 1]

I remember when the first day of orientation started for my class. There were four people waiting outside the admissions office hoping that someone would not show up and they would be able to take a seat in the class. One very fortunate guy did make it in. 🙂

You know I read a lot about undergrad. admissions and I hear that something similar to this happens at some colleges. Students show up for orientation with all their stuff (when they were blatantly rejected or waitlisted) and pretend they are supposed to be there. I have no idea how, but sometimes they slip through the tracks and get added to a residence hall.

To the poster above, did the dean call these four and tell them they were next up on the list before orientation and they were in if no one showed up?