Schools with the happiest and least happiest med students?

[Nymphicus]

Surprised Vanderbilt hasn't been mentioned yet.

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[Irish Football]

All the people in the med school ads on SDN all look extremely happy.

 

[Geebeejay]

Saint Louis University claimed to have the lowest rates of depression....not sure how valid that is though

I don't think they claimed to have the lowest rates, but they did claim to have very low rates of depression. I believe it too, based on the changes they've made (apparently, not starting M1 with 10 weeks of dissection = improved morale and less depression - who woulda thought?), and how much they seem to try to accommodate students and have really embraced wellness culture on their campus. And I agree with Mimelim, the before and after stats (though I haven't seen any data firsthand) are very impressive.

 

[Tots]

Surprised Vanderbilt hasn't been mentioned yet.

On my interview day, Vanderbilt med students were very happy That being said I have yet to encounter a school where the students were not happy(at least on the interview day). I'm still waiting to find that mythical school they talk about at every interview that tortures their students and prides themselves on misery.

 

[NickNaylor]

Surprised Vanderbilt hasn't been mentioned yet.

I got a bit of a Stepford Wives feel at Vandy. Sounds ridiculous but I'll admit that it weirded me out.

 

[KinasePro]

I don't think you can accurately gauge student happiness from your interview days or second look. Hell, I can hardly gauge happiness at my school, because class personalities vary wildly from year to year.

If a school or student interviewers/ tour guides are telling you "OMG our StUdEnTz R SOOO HaPpY <333!!" you should probably just write it off as the typical admissions recruitment spiel.

 

[muhali3]

1. Attractive women that have a liberal attitude towards certain things
2. Area with something to do where you can have a great social life
3. True P/F to minimize competition
4. Top notch education
5. Enough time to study for Step 1 and 2.
6. School has a great reputation with residency directors and hospitals.

Needless to say, no school will have all of these. Maybe 3 or 4 tops.

Columbia.

 

[Nymphicus]

I got a bit of a Stepford Wives feel at Vandy. Sounds ridiculous but I'll admit that it weirded me out.

o.0

I don't really know what you mean.

 

[CuttingCorneas]

I got a bit of a Stepford Wives feel at Vandy. Sounds ridiculous but I'll admit that it weirded me out.

o.0

I don't really know what you mean.

He means you're all vivacious robots trained to do well on Step 1 and marry rich. Basically a medical MRS degree.

 

[Fawn Leibowitz]

I don't think you can accurately gauge student happiness from your interview days or second look. Hell, I can hardly gauge happiness at my school, because class personalities vary wildly from year to year.

If a school or student interviewers/ tour guides are telling you "OMG our StUdEnTz R SOOO HaPpY <333!!" you should probably just write it off as the typical admissions recruitment spiel.

I'm an M1 at Michigan, and I think we've gotta have some of the happiest students. I think that comes across during our interview days, and maybe more believably than at some other schools, just because of the huge number of students who participate in our interview days. Each interview day easily involves 50 students, between the group dinner the night before and the interview day itself (lunch, tour, panels, and lots of time for mingling). Many students who participate have no official role in the interview process itself, we come out to meet the applicants because we like the school and it's fun to meet the candidates. There are also plenty of interview day snacks, but considering that we get free lunch most days of the week (and often free dinner - I had free falafel for lunch yesterday and free pizza for dinner), the food isn't much of an incentive.

I think there are many reasons that Michigan students are generally very happy-

1. Our culture encourages happiness and supports work/life balance. It's not a competition to see who can work themselves to the bone.

2. We are TRUE pass fail for the first two years. We don't have high pass or an honor society for a certain percentage of the class.

3. We have weekly quizzes that force us to stay on top of the material, so the most we ever get behind is four days. That's not much to stress about! Plus if a quiz goes poorly, we can make up the points on other quizzes and the final exam.

4. Our quiz and exam questions are incredibly fair. The class averages are typically around 90%, and if we have a problem with a question, we can submit an anonymous "query" to the instructor via an established online system. We've had questions get tossed this way - at least four or five in the past few months. Even if a question doesn't get tossed, the instructor has to write a response to the query, explaining the reasoning behind the answer.

5. We can take the quizzes whenever we want (starting Friday at 5:00 pm and going until Sunday at 11:00 pm). We just go to the library and sign on to a computer there. If for some reason we can't do so (illness, travel, life), we get deferrals pretty easily.

6. The quiz schedule enables people to have weekends off or even to travel out of town - lots of people visit significant others, family, etc.

7. We get INSTANT feedback on our quizzes and exams, once we submit the answers electronically. The correct answers are revealed with explanations. There is no stressing after the fact about whether an answer was right or if we passed - we know right away.

8. Our classes are generally well organized and the administration constantly requests feedback through surveys (many are mandatory), feedback lunches with students, and through elected class representatives.

9. We match well in residency and do above average on step 1. We also get plenty of time to study for Step 1. There is a sense that if we're staying on top of our classes, the rest falls into place.

10. The research and clinical resources are amazing here. The hospital is top-notch, and we have a host of other top-ranked graduate schools.

11. All of our lectures are recorded and available for streaming at 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 speeds. Lectures from previous years are also available and the entire curriculum is fully searchable.

12. We share outlines within each class and from year-to-year through an online outline bank. We also share electronic flashcards and loads of other study aids, literally every day something is sent around or posted on our website.

13. We have established mentorship programs with faculty and with students in the higher classes, so there are plenty of people to go to with questions.

14. Ann Arbor is lots of fun and it's incredibly livable - easy to navigate, inexpensive, etc.

15. We have tons of extracurricular activities and most students participate - whether in clinical activities, research activities, or totally non-medical activities (dance groups, photography classes, pilates, yoga, IM sports, etc).

16. People are NICE. Friendliness is not only encouraged but demanded. The professors are respectful to students. The hospital has a reputation for being very accessible, and we get frequent invitations to shadow, etc.

17. The curriculum emphasizes the humanistic side of medicine - we are paired with real patients right from the start. We also have patient presentations where people tell us about how illness has affected their lives. We work on doctor/patient communication, ethics, and a whole other host of areas.

That's the quick list. There's lots more!

 

[yellowfish]

^
They should hire you to do their brochures

 

[Frazier]

7. We get INSTANT feedback on our quizzes and exams, once we submit the answers electronically. The correct answers are revealed with explanations. There is no stressing after the fact about whether an answer was right or if we passed - we know right away.

Is there some sort of huge Q bank for mere quizzes? How does the school curb rampant cheating with such a system? (Please don't say "honor code".)

 

[Geebeejay]

Is there some sort of huge Q bank for mere quizzes? How does the school curb rampant cheating with such a system? (Please don't say "honor code".)

Well, if they take the quizzes at the same time, then what would the problem be? Even if it was "honor code", if you cheat, you'd only be hurting yourself in a p/f school.

 

[Frazier]

Well, if they take the quizzes at the same time, then what would the problem be? Even if it was "honor code", if you cheat, you'd only be hurting yourself in a p/f school.

They don't take the quizzes at the same time...

"5. We can take the quizzes whenever we want (starting Friday at 5:00 pm and going until Sunday at 11:00 pm)."

 

[kpcrew]

Is there some sort of huge Q bank for mere quizzes? How does the school curb rampant cheating with such a system? (Please don't say "honor code".)

If you cheat, you're only cheating yourself when Step 1 comes along.

 

[Geebeejay]

They don't take the quizzes at the same time...

"5. We can take the quizzes whenever we want (starting Friday at 5:00 pm and going until Sunday at 11:00 pm)."

Haha, well touche then. I still stand by the second part of my statement.

 

[Frazier]

If you cheat, you're only cheating yourself when Step 1 comes along.

Yes, the adage is credited... So is that how Michigan approaches it?

"Lay the answers out for them to share. If they cheat on our little weekly quizzes, hopefully they don't master First Aid so that Step 1 can extract revenge on them." (?)

I have no dog in this fight (not even interviewing at Michigan) -- I'm just curious.

 

[mcloaf]

I think perhaps it's more accurate to say they treat their students like adults and not children. Those who pay for medical school and cheat in a P/F environment will reap what they sow.

The upsides in flexibility for the honest ones seem like they would far outweigh the potential downsides for cheaters. Michigan's Step 1 scores would indicate that people cheating and coasting until Step 1 are few in number anyway.

 

[mcloaf]

Full disclosure: I'll probably be starting at Michigan next year.

 

[Fawn Leibowitz]

Is there some sort of huge Q bank for mere quizzes? How does the school curb rampant cheating with such a system? (Please don't say "honor code".)

We all take the same quiz, and we take it at different times - we just go to the library when we want and sign on for the quiz. No advance scheduling is required, and the system is available around the clock.

Even so, I honestly think cheating is not a big problem here. I haven't seen ANY evidence of it, even with plenty of opportunity. There's little incentive to cheat for a bunch of reasons:

- We take the quiz when we feel ready and we can get deferrals if need be.

- The grading system is TRUE pass/fail - no honors, no honor society, no input from preclinical grades into our dean's letters for residency. The only people who see our grades are the directors of the relevant sequence and maybe the office of medical education/other student life administrators.

- The questions are fair and it's generally quite easy to pass if you've studied a moderate amount. It's less easy to score 100% though some people do (we see a histogram of class scores on each quiz and exam). Our averages are around 90%.

- If someone fails a quiz or an exam, it would be easy to make up the points elsewhere to pass the sequence with a 75+ overall. For each lecture, we get two questions on the weekly quiz and two more questions on the exam, so the final exam is 50% of the total grade. If you have a good quiz average, the final is NOTHING to stress about. It's actually kinda amazing.

- We have to know a good chunk of this material for Step 1, future medical school classes, and being a physician in general. We may as well learn it now.

Though there are few incentives to cheat, the school does take some precautions against cheating.

- The honor code.

- On every quiz we have to verify that we didn't cheat and we didn't see any other students cheat. (We are also asked if we think the questions were representative of the material taught that week - I think this shows that they care about fair testing).

- The areas where we take the quiz are videoed, so that if someone is obviously cheating and the cheating is reported, there's a record of the activity. On the flip side, if someone is NOT cheating but it's claimed that they were, the video record provides a defense.

If someone does cheat, the case is presented to an Honor Board, and the student's identity is withheld from the board members who analyze the evidence and decide the outcome. This keeps the process as objective as possible.

I'm just sharing this to let you guys know that medical students CAN be happy! We have a great experience at Michigan and I'm sure there are other schools where that's also true.

 

[Frazier]

We all take the same quiz, and we take it at different times - we just go to the library when we want and sign on for the quiz. No advance scheduling is required, and the system is available around the clock.

Even so, I honestly think cheating is not a big problem here. I haven't seen ANY evidence of it, even with plenty of opportunity. There's little incentive to cheat for a bunch of reasons:

- We take the quiz when we feel ready and we can get deferrals if need be.

- The grading system is TRUE pass/fail - no honors, no honor society, no input from preclinical grades into our dean's letters for residency. The only people who see our grades are the directors of the relevant sequence and maybe the office of medical education/other student life administrators.

- The questions are fair and it's generally quite easy to pass if you've studied a moderate amount. It's less easy to score 100% though some people do (we see a histogram of class scores on each quiz and exam). Our averages are around 90%.

- If someone fails a quiz or an exam, it would be easy to make up the points elsewhere to pass the sequence with a 75+ overall. For each lecture, we get two questions on the weekly quiz and two more questions on the exam, so the final exam is 50% of the total grade. If you have a good quiz average, the final is NOTHING to stress about. It's actually kinda amazing.

- We have to know a good chunk of this material for Step 1, future medical school classes, and being a physician in general. We may as well learn it now.

Though there are few incentives to cheat, the school does take some precautions against cheating.

- The honor code.

- On every quiz we have to verify that we didn't cheat and we didn't see any other students cheat. (We are also asked if we think the questions were representative of the material taught that week - I think this shows that they care about fair testing).

- The areas where we take the quiz are videoed, so that if someone is obviously cheating and the cheating is reported, there's a record of the activity. On the flip side, if someone is NOT cheating but it's claimed that they were, the video record provides a defense.

If someone does cheat, the case is presented to an Honor Board, and the student's identity is withheld from the board members who analyze the evidence and decide the outcome. This keeps the process as objective as possible.

I'm just sharing this to let you guys know that medical students CAN be happy! We have a great experience at Michigan and I'm sure there are other schools where that's also true.

Thanks for the calm and cool response, even with being perhaps put on the spot a bit.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm an M1 at Michigan, and I think we've gotta have some of the happiest students. I think that comes across during our interview days, and maybe more believably than at some other schools, just because of the huge number of students who participate in our interview days. Each interview day easily involves 50 students, between the group dinner the night before and the interview day itself (lunch, tour, panels, and lots of time for mingling). Many students who participate have no official role in the interview process itself, we come out to meet the applicants because we like the school and it's fun to meet the candidates. There are also plenty of interview day snacks, but considering that we get free lunch most days of the week (and often free dinner - I had free falafel for lunch yesterday and free pizza for dinner), the food isn't much of an incentive.

I think there are many reasons that Michigan students are generally very happy-

1. Our culture encourages happiness and supports work/life balance. It's not a competition to see who can work themselves to the bone.

2. We are TRUE pass fail for the first two years. We don't have high pass or an honor society for a certain percentage of the class.

Does that also mean that you have no internal ranking system? Do you not have AOA any more?

 

[circulus vitios]

I like how every school claims to be non-competitive.

 

[Fawn Leibowitz]

Does that also mean that you have no internal ranking system? Do you not have AOA any more?

I just googled this after you posted. It turns out that we DO have AOA, but it's only based on 3rd year grades (not M1, M2, or M4) and also somewhat on Step 1 scores (not Step 2). So that explains why I've heard absolutely nothing about it during M1 year. We don't have an internal ranking system for M1 or M2 year, none at all.

Learning about AOA now, I don't think it adds much more pressure for us, because 3rd year rotations are already graded with a ranked system - honors (I think 10%), high pass (maybe 35%) , and pass. And I think that's fair - at some point, those who are working harder (or at least performing better) should get credit for it.

http://www.med.umich.edu/medstudents/student_services/organizations/alpha/index.html

 

[Fawn Leibowitz]

I like how every school claims to be non-competitive.

I actually agree with this. I think some schools are telling the truth, others probably aren't (either they are actively misrepresenting the school or they're oblivious to the student experience). That's why it's important to look at FACTS about the school and student life - like is the school truly pass fail, do they have an established system for students to share notes, etc. In my posts, I tried to list the reasons why Michigan is not competitive, rather than just stating that it isn't. There's a big difference between the two.

 

[KinasePro]

I'm an M1 at Michigan...

Not trying to call you out or anything, but pretty much everything in your laundry list could be said for any of the top 30 schools. UMich is awesome.... but so are the others at their tier (and just below). My school has essentially everything on your list, yet we still have a good mix of happy & unhappy people.

I think the "happiness" of a student body has more to do with the students' personalities than anything you'd find in an admissions brochure. That goes for any of the top ~30 schools... there's a lot more variety in "quality of life" among the less competitive schools, but plenty of them are pretty kick ass too.

 

[Geebeejay]

all h/p/f schools ive interviewed at are based on test scores which are not scaled...honors is like 93%+, and everyone could get honors theoretically. I think this is still non-competitive, just as a "true" p/f system is..

 

[Zapster]

How about Duke?

 

[kpcrew]

all h/p/f schools ive interviewed at are based on test scores which are not scaled...honors is like 93%+, and everyone could get honors theoretically. I think this is still non-competitive, just as a "true" p/f system is..

If you're being ranked against your classmates, you still have that incentive to be competitive even if you all get honors from earning a certain grade.

 

[Frazier]

How about Duke?

I like Duke. A lot. [Interviewed there.]

Same as always...students more or less saying how happy and noncompetitive it is. HOWEVER, they did indicate that first year is pretty intense (but that's expected with the condensed 1 yr preclinical curriculum).

They are P/F now (not sure exactly when they switched), so that might help with competitiveness and "happiness" a tad.

 

[Fawn Leibowitz]

Not trying to call you out or anything, but pretty much everything in your laundry list could be said for any of the top 30 schools. UMich is awesome.... but so are the others at their tier (and just below). My school has essentially everything on your list, yet we still have a good mix of happy & unhappy people.

I think the "happiness" of a student body has more to do with the students' personalities than anything you'd find in an admissions brochure. That goes for any of the top ~30 schools... there's a lot more variety in "quality of life" among the less competitive schools, but plenty of them are pretty kick ass too.

I don't know if other schools have students that are as happy as us - I would hope so! I was only speaking to the Michigan experience, and trying to list the factors that make us happy. Of course many of the factors are also present at other top schools, with the possible (and significant) exception of flex-time testing is Michigan only. I would love to be wrong, as it's an awesome perk that really should be offered everywhere.

Maybe our level of happiness is partly just culture, more than any one factor. I can honestly say that I literally haven't meant a single student who says that they don't like Michigan, that they wish they were elsewhere, that the school is terrible, etc. I did encounter plenty of that at other schools that I've attended (college, etc), but it is notably absent here. Students at Michigan DO complain about aspects of the curriculum, particular instructors or policies, etc., but it's always balanced with recognition of other factors about the school that are great. In general, we are not stressed about our classes and we manage to have a good amount of fun. I would hope that would be true at all med schools, and I'm sure it is at some.