Science fair in highschool and how that relates to premed (2 questions)

[blissworm]

Hi,

I was a dedicated science fair kid in highschool, did around 2500 hours of research through the four years and competed at the state, national and international level and was pretty successful. It was easy to navigate and I was familiar with the system. Did research at local universities and presented to experts in the field, loved it. Now I'm entering my third year of college and have virtually no research (I spent first semester freshman year rotating through a few labs trying to find a good fit and by the time spring came around covid made it's entry). My campus is finally opening back up in fall and I'm hungry for research but even if I get myself into a lab it'll be hard to get a lot done in two years. A couple questions:

1) I know the consensus on HS stuff on AMCAS is generally 'nah'. However, do you think there is any validity in me placing two international awards from high school science fair (11-12th grade) in a potential awards slot on AMCAS and having a sentence about how those international fairs, meeting peers from around the world, presenting to experts, and the research itself (which matches my specialty of choice) were quite formative in my decision to go clinical investigator for a career?

2) I see students who are accepted often having "awards". Aside from local awards offered at their colleges, what are some national or such awards for undergrads? I loved the competitive nature of science fair and I know that isn't available in college (mostly best poster or something at a conference) but are there any well know or recognized honors that look nice on a premeds list for 'oh that would be awesome to get'? I would love to have some names to work towards because, even if I don't get any, the process is often rewarding, you get to meet others, and the byproducts of research and stuff you do during the process is something you have with you forever. And I don't meant Rhodes scholars or anything lol, just like a "2nd place" or "silver medal in the xyz category".

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[proudofmykids]

The general consensus regarding research experience to include on the application to med school is most importly to demonstrate you performed and learned the process for research. (Hypothesis, testing, data, analysis, conclusion etc).

Even for elite institutions, I'm not sure is it makes much difference if your research experience exceeds 300 hours, or authorship / published in respected field journals. I'll let second like @gyngyn and @LizzyM maybe weigh in here.

As far as your high school research, I don't think it is worth mentioning besides as a starting point for your eye of your college research experience or future research goals.

 

[Tenk]

Mentioning high school research without college research will probably hurt more than help.

 

[candbgirl]

How are your other ECs? Do you plan to take a gap year or two before applying? Will you be able to explain why MD and not Ph.D.? Your expressed career goal of “clinical investigator” could probably be attainable without the intensity of the med school path. And as @Tenk said without college research I wouldn’t mention high school experiences.

 

[KnightDoc]

Mentioning high school research without college research will probably hurt more than help.

This^^^^^. It sucks that you lost a year due to COVID -- we all did. That said, schools are going to care a lot more about whatever you do (or don't do) over the next two years than about that fact that you were a science fair stud in HS a lifetime ago.

Same with using award slots to talk about what you accomplished in HS. Without corresponding achievements in UG, it is only going to highlight the difference. Don't go there -- it will it make it look like you peaked in HS! Many of us were rock stars in HS, but, keep in mind that this is not an application to UG.

Med schools really want to know what you have done lately. The playing field is a lot less competitive in HS, and it is much easier to excel. What you accomplish in UG and thereafter is a much better indicator of likelihood of success in med school than HS science fairs.

 

[LizzyM]

I'll let you list the 2 international awards from HS in the work-activities section but only if you find a lab and put in some time there during your junior (and seinior) year(s).

If you have a strong GPA and an MCAT in the top 5%, then the research experinece and accolates will matter as will your interest in clinical research. If you are an applicant who is only slightly above average, then it won't matter as much because your target schools will be those that don't highly value research experiences.

So, push comes to shove, focus on the MCAT over all else.

 

[blissworm]

Absolutely, great points. I'm planning on doing extensive amounts of research in my remaining two years, including a summer research internship. If I manage to get that would it still be sensible, or just avoid all together?

 

[blissworm]

How are your other ECs? Do you plan to take a gap year or two before applying? Will you be able to explain why MD and not Ph.D.? Your expressed career goal of “clinical investigator” could probably be attainable without the intensity of the med school path. And as @Tenk said without college research I wouldn’t mention high school experiences.

At time of application I will hopefully have 1200 hrs clinical paid job (MA type work in electroconvulsive therapy), 450 hrs non-clinical volunteering across three orgs, 1 leadership position for four years with international stem journal, an extracurricular job related to high school science fair (lol yeah I do love science fair and now run the local one). Also was pharm tech, and some volunteering since age 12 (continued) at local hoise of worship.

Yes, will take one gap year

Yes, I should be able to explain my interest in MD only. Hope to do an MSCR or MSCI afterwards!

Absolutely, that's an excellent point!

 

[blissworm]

I'll let you list the 2 international awards from HS in the work-activities section but only if you find a lab and put in some time there during your junior (and seinior) year(s).

If you have a strong GPA and an MCAT in the top 5%, then the research experinece and accolates will matter as will your interest in clinical research. If you are an applicant who is only slightly above average, then it won't matter as much because your target schools will be those that don't highly value research experiences.

So, push comes to shove, focus on the MCAT over all else.

That's totally true, the MCAT is going to be huge for me. Hope to take it march 2023 and apply June of that year.

Assuming I have good research I'll go ahead and include the two HS awards.

Another huge question I had was about my college research. Labs at my uni are limited and I am actually trying to do an intensive research experience in summer 2022 at a school in the east coast (12-14 weeks 40hrs a week). Is this really bad, that I won't have a long term longitudinal study associated with me? I was going to do extensive research during my gap year (supplemented with clinical and some volunteering) but during college it looks like my best bet is that extensive internship type research thing.

 

[Talldoctor96]

High school gets you into college, college stuff gets you into Med school.

I briefly mentioned my high school Alzheimer’s research when explaining how I fell in love with medicine - but listing it on your activities section is a bit much.

also you’re a freshman. I applied to Med school with over a thousand hours of research, didn’t start until junior year.

frankly, there’s no need to even be on SDN this early.

I loved my premed experience because I didn’t know about any of this ****. I found things I was passionate about doing, not worrying “ is this clinical ?????” Or “is this enough hours????”

go do what you enjoy, find passionate mentors and have some fun while doing it. STOP worrying about an application section you’ll be writing in 3 years.

 

[KnightDoc]

Absolutely, great points. I'm planning on doing extensive amounts of research in my remaining two years, including a summer research internship. If I manage to get that would it still be sensible, or just avoid all together?

If it shows early excellence that continued in UG, there is no reason not to mention it. It's really not going to be worth much, but it certainly won't hurt. JMHO, as someone who doesn't have to worry about such things!

 

[LizzyM]

An intensive summer research experinece out-of-town is fine, particularly if your school isn't a research powerhouse.

 

[JimKimSlim]

Aside from local awards offered at their colleges, what are some national or such awards for undergrads?

You don’t need a national or such award to get into med schools. Most people mention awards as part of their listed activity. In my case, I listed playing video games as my hobby and briefly mentioned a college esport award my team received. This was mentioned briefly during interview but likely had no bearing on my admissions chance.

 

[MyOdyssey]

In my view, listing international level achievement in high school is fine whether it be science fair, math Olympiad, voice competitions, Junior Olympics, etc.

Working in the same lab for 2 years will help you accomplish something like research pubs or presentations at high profile conferences.

Consider applying to do summer research or postbacc research at the NIH. Those international awards will help you get an offer there. NIH has internal poster completions among its summer interns and post baccs.

AACR (cancer research) offers prizes related to student research.

Awards, Prizes, and Opportunities

AACR Undergraduate Scholar Awards are available to full-time, third-year undergraduate students for participation in two consecutive AACR Annual Meetings.

www.aacr.org

NSF funds a lot of summer research fellowships for undergrads. Keep in mind that many target disadvantaged or URM populations.

REU - For Students | NSF - National Science Foundation

www.nsf.gov

Amgen Scholars - highly competitive summer research program in the biomedical sciences

UC Berkeley Amgen Scholars Program – ProFellow

The Amgen Scholars Program is a national program at the University of California, Berkeley to increase research opportunities for students committed to pursuing careers in the sciences and biotechnology. This program provides outstanding science undergraduates with research experience and...

www.profellow.com

 

[MyOdyssey]

I'll let you list the 2 international awards from HS in the work-activities section but only if you find a lab and put in some time there during your junior (and seinior) year(s).

If you have a strong GPA and an MCAT in the top 5%, then the research experinece and accolates will matter as will your interest in clinical research. If you are an applicant who is only slightly above average, then it won't matter as much because your target schools will be those that don't highly value research experiences.

So, push comes to shove, focus on the MCAT over all else.

518 MCAT seems to be an important reality check on T20/T30 hopes and expectations.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

True in most cases but I imagine Intel or Siemiens semifinalist or finalist would be looked highly upon for med schools. I’ve heard it’s an auto admit at Harvard and MIT so I think it could be looked favorably upon even if it’s four or five years in the past

The general consensus regarding research experience to include on the application to med school is most importly to demonstrate you performed and learned the process for research. (Hypothesis, testing, data, analysis, conclusion etc).

Even for elite institutions, I'm not sure is it makes much difference if your research experience exceeds 300 hours, or authorship / published in respected field journals. I'll let second like @gyngyn and @LizzyM maybe weigh in here.

As far as your high school research, I don't think it is worth mentioning besides as a starting point for your eye of your college research experience or future research goals.

 

[KnightDoc]

True in most cases but I imagine Intel or Siemiens semifinalist or finalist would be looked highly upon for med schools. I’ve heard it’s an auto admit at Harvard and MIT so I think it could be looked favorably upon even if it’s four or five years in the past

I respectfully disagree. Intel or Siemens are great leading indicators of high achievement to come. If they are the highlight of a resume 4 or 5 years later, all they would do is serve as evidence of unrealized potential. And, if you have done impressive things in UG and beyond, why would med schools care about what you did in HS, or grade school for that matter?

I just don't see how HS awards add to a med school application one way or the other. Whether or not anything from HS is an auto admit at Harvard or MIT, there are plenty of people every year who apparently think attending HYPSM constitutes auto admit for med school due to their very high rates of success. They rest on their laurels, admiring the view in the mirror, and are shocked when they learn that HS glory followed by nothing does not impress competitive grad programs like medicine.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I respectfully disagree. Intel or Siemens are great leading indicators of high achievement to come. If they are the highlight of a resume 4 or 5 years later, all they would do is serve as evidence of unrealized potential. And, if you have done impressive things in UG and beyond, why would med schools care about what you did in HS, or grade school for that matter?

I just don't see how HS awards add to a med school application one way or the other. Whether or not anything from HS is an auto admit at Harvard or MIT, there are plenty of people every year who apparently think attending HYPSM constitutes auto admit for med school due to their very high rates of success. They rest on their laurels, admiring the view in the mirror, and are shocked when they learn that HS glory followed by nothing does not impress competitive grad programs like medicine.

Junior Olympics in track and field.

International Math Olympiad US team member

1st place in national classical voice competition

None of that are impressive enough to include on a med school application?

 

[jhmmd]

I respectfully disagree. Intel or Siemens are great leading indicators of high achievement to come. If they are the highlight of a resume 4 or 5 years later, all they would do is serve as evidence of unrealized potential. And, if you have done impressive things in UG and beyond, why would med schools care about what you did in HS, or grade school for that matter?

I just don't see how HS awards add to a med school application one way or the other. Whether or not anything from HS is an auto admit at Harvard or MIT, there are plenty of people every year who apparently think attending HYPSM constitutes auto admit for med school due to their very high rates of success. They rest on their laurels, admiring the view in the mirror, and are shocked when they learn that HS glory followed by nothing does not impress competitive grad programs like medicine.

I have never heard of this "auto admit" stuff. Does anyone have a link?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Junior Olympics in track and field.

International Math Olympiad US team member

1st place in national classical voice competition

None of that are impressive enough to include on a med school application?

Of course they are. I’ve seen some very accomplished 75+ year old professors list math Olympiad on their CVs.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I have never heard of this "auto admit" stuff. Does anyone have a link?

Old college confidential. Not even sure if people post on there anymore though. It’s been 7 or 8 years since I’ve been on the website

 

[jhmmd]

Old college confidential. Not even sure if people post on there anymore though. It’s been 7 or 8 years since I’ve been on the website

Oh yea I remember that website

 

[KnightDoc]

Of course they are. I’ve seen some very accomplished 75+ year old professors list math Olympiad on their CVs.

I'm sure you have. And, while I am sure they are very proud, if they have done nothing since, I'm sure it doesn't get them very far as they attempt to advance in their careers.

Same here. Prestigious HS accomplishments are very valuable for getting into prestigious UGs. Not so much for grad school, if that's still the highlight of their CV 4+ years later. My sample size is admittedly pretty small, but I don't know a single person who was admitted to a prestigious medical, law or business school who just coasted since doing something great in HS.

So, does mentioning it hurt? Probably not. But it also probably doesn't help, since UG plus gap year accomplishments either stand on their own or they don't. And if they don't, demonstrating for the adcoms what a rock star you used to be by mentioning it is probably counterproductive.