Scrambing into Prelim

[Green Grass]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Got a question: what if I match into a primary position (i.e. derm), but don't match a prelim - do I find out early (the Friday before Match Day) where I am going for my primary residency (i.e. derm) so I can scramble into a prelim program in that same geographic location?

Thanks!

 

[gutonc]

Got a question: what if I match into a primary position (i.e. derm), but don't match a prelim - do I find out early (the Friday before Match Day) where I am going for my primary residency (i.e. derm) so I can scramble into a prelim program in that same geographic location?

Thanks!

No, but you can ask. You will get an email on Monday saying one of the following:
"Congrats you matched prelim and advanced"
"Congrats you matched advanced but not prelim"
"Congrats you matched prelim but not advanced"
"Sorry, you didn't match"

If you get the 2nd or 3rd emails you can call NRMP and ask them to tell you the city where you matched. They won't tell you the program but that's not such a huge deal. You can then decide whether you want to just stay at your home program (and beg the IM and Surg PDs for a spot) or get somebody to call on your behalf and try to score a spot before the Scramble.

 

[Green Grass]

Great! Thanks. I really appreciate it.

 

[scotchtapetest]

No, but you can ask. You will get an email on Monday saying one of the following:
"Congrats you matched prelim and advanced"
"Congrats you matched advanced but not prelim"
"Congrats you matched prelim but not advanced"
"Sorry, you didn't match"

If you get the 2nd or 3rd emails you can call NRMP and ask them to tell you the city where you matched. They won't tell you the program but that's not such a huge deal. You can then decide whether you want to just stay at your home program (and beg the IM and Surg PDs for a spot) or get somebody to call on your behalf and try to score a spot before the Scramble.

My understanding is that this approach is no longer legal this year with the SOAP process in place. Although, it will be interesting to see how will this work out this year!!! Are there going to be deans who are going to sit on their a** and do nothing while their students are unmatched?😕😱😕

The following is directly from the good folks at NRMP:

"Applicants and programs will be required to send and receive applications only through ERAS."
"NRMP-participating programs that fill positions during Match Week must do so only through the SOAP."
"The NRMP Match Participation Agreement will be expanded to include Match Week and SOAP, and sanctions will be imposed for improper behavior."

 

[gutonc]

My understanding is that this approach is no longer legal this year with the SOAP process in place. Although, it will be interesting to see how will this work out this year!!! Are there going to be deans who are going to sit on their a** and do nothing while their students are unmatched?😕😱😕

The following is directly from the good folks at NRMP:

"Applicants and programs will be required to send and receive applications only through ERAS."
"NRMP-participating programs that fill positions during Match Week must do so only through the SOAP."
"The NRMP Match Participation Agreement will be expanded to include Match Week and SOAP, and sanctions will be imposed for improper behavior."

They can still create a spot for you if they completely filled their in-Match positions. This is pretty common and doesn't seem to fall afoul of the rules.

Also, SOAP is just an organized way for programs to receive apps and offer spots. So if your Dean/local PD calls his buddy, the Dean/PD at Program X (that has 3 open spots) and says "bala565 matched at an advanced program in your town and would like to get one of the prelim spots you've got open," you can apply in SOAP, they can offer you a spot in the first round and you can take it. SOAP is a manage scramble, not a 2nd Match (which would be a better plan IMHO).

 

[scotchtapetest]

They can still create a spot for you if they completely filled their in-Match positions. This is pretty common and doesn't seem to fall afoul of the rules.

Also, SOAP is just an organized way for programs to receive apps and offer spots. So if your Dean/local PD calls his buddy, the Dean/PD at Program X (that has 3 open spots) and says "bala565 matched at an advanced program in your town and would like to get one of the prelim spots you've got open," you can apply in SOAP, they can offer you a spot in the first round and you can take it. SOAP is a manage scramble, not a 2nd Match (which would be a better plan IMHO).

I don't know what you mean by your first sentence? How can a program "create" a spot if they have filled all of their accredited spots? (I'm not arguing with you on this point, just asking a question because I don't know the answer to that)!

With regards to SOAP:

My understanding is that no one can call anyone on your behalf. All communications must be through ERAS.

Again from NRMP: Applicants participating in SOAP "Cannot have another individual/entity contact programs on applicant's behalf." and unfilled programs "Can not use ... personal contacts."

The whole purpose of SOAP is to avoid having people with connections securing a spot and people without connections (e.g. FMG/IMG) going unmatched. I'm not sure how well it will work but that's the intent.

 

[gutonc]

WRT your first question, plenty of programs can/will create a spot for a "deserving" prelim even if they've filled. They'll either eat the cost or perhaps not have put all the spots they have funding for into the Match.

To your second issue...how are they going to monitor that? Has NRMP tapped the phones of every program and applicant?

 

[scotchtapetest]

WRT your first question, plenty of programs can/will create a spot for a "deserving" prelim even if they've filled. They'll either eat the cost or perhaps not have put all the spots they have funding for into the Match.

To your second issue...how are they going to monitor that? Has NRMP tapped the phones of every program and applicant?

That's why I said it will be interesting to see how it will play it self out.

Nonetheless, as per NRMP there should be NO contact between or on behalf of unmatched applicants and unfilled programs outside of ERAS during match week!

 

[307Doc]

Agree with the above. The NRMP website spells things out.

 

[gutonc]

That's why I said it will be interesting to see how it will play it self out.

Nonetheless, as per NRMP there should be NO contact between or on behalf of unmatched applicants and unfilled programs outside of ERAS during match week!

And that's the key. If you think there actually won't be such contact, you've got a much better opinion of the mass of humanity than I do.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Nonetheless, as per NRMP there should be NO contact between or on behalf of unmatched applicants and unfilled programs outside of ERAS during match week!

I don't know how you enforce this. Golfing buddies are still gonna talk.

 

[username456789]

No, but you can ask. You will get an email on Monday saying one of the following:
"Congrats you matched prelim and advanced"
"Congrats you matched advanced but not prelim"
"Congrats you matched prelim but not advanced"
"Sorry, you didn't match"

If you get the 2nd or 3rd emails you can call NRMP and ask them to tell you the city where you matched. They won't tell you the program but that's not such a huge deal. You can then decide whether you want to just stay at your home program (and beg the IM and Surg PDs for a spot) or get somebody to call on your behalf and try to score a spot before the Scramble.

I have a question somewhat related to this that I've seen to get very mixed responses on, and I'm hoping someone can respond with definitive information.

If I were to rank a single preliminary medicine program at the bottom of my PRIMARY ROL (i.e. 11 total programs listed on my primary ROL . . . 10 derm followed by 1 prelim medicine), and I [shuddler] do not happen to match into any of the 10 derm programs, but I match into the prelim medicine program at the 11 spot, what would my initial email say?

Would it say "congratulations, you matched!"? Would it be more specific, telling me I only matched into a preliminary program (keep in mind this prelim program is on my primary ROL, not attached to one of the derm programs)? Basically, my question is, if I rank a prelim medicine at the bottom of my primary ROL, when the emails come out, will I know for sure whether I've matched into derm? Or will I still be left wondering until Friday? I know that scrambling into derm is just about unheard of, but this would become more relevant to students applying to competitive-yet-scramble-possible specialties, assuming they would potentially be allowed to then try to scramble for an advanced spot in their specialty (e.g. Anesthesiology or Neurology). Thinking you've matched into your advanced program that whole time from Monday to Match Day when in reality you only matched into a prelim program would be awful.

Thanks!

 

[gutonc]

I have a question somewhat related to this that I've seen to get very mixed responses on, and I'm hoping someone can respond with definitive information.

If I were to rank a single preliminary medicine program at the bottom of my PRIMARY ROL (i.e. 11 total programs listed on my primary ROL . . . 10 derm followed by 1 prelim medicine), and I [shuddler] do not happen to match into any of the 10 derm programs, but I match into the prelim medicine program at the 11 spot, what would my initial email say?

Would it say "congratulations, you matched!"? Would it be more specific, telling me I only matched into a preliminary program (keep in mind this prelim program is on my primary ROL, not attached to one of the derm programs)? Basically, my question is, if I rank a prelim medicine at the bottom of my primary ROL, when the emails come out, will I know for sure whether I've matched into derm? Or will I still be left wondering until Friday? I know that scrambling into derm is just about unheard of, but this would become more relevant to students applying to competitive-yet-scramble-possible specialties, assuming they would potentially be allowed to then try to scramble for an advanced spot in their specialty (e.g. Anesthesiology or Neurology). Thinking you've matched into your advanced program that whole time from Monday to Match Day when in reality you only matched into a prelim program would be awful.

Thanks!

"Congrats you matched prelim but not advanced"

 

[Harrison486]

No, but you can ask. You will get an email on Monday saying one of the following:
"Congrats you matched prelim and advanced"
"Congrats you matched advanced but not prelim"
"Congrats you matched prelim but not advanced"
"Sorry, you didn't match"

If you get the 2nd or 3rd emails you can call NRMP and ask them to tell you the city where you matched. They won't tell you the program but that's not such a huge deal. You can then decide whether you want to just stay at your home program (and beg the IM and Surg PDs for a spot) or get somebody to call on your behalf and try to score a spot before the Scramble.

From the NRMP Website:

How will I know if I have matched to a program?

At 12:00 noon on Monday of Match Week, applicants can learn IF they matched to a program on their rank order list by logging in to the NRMP's Registration, Ranking, and Results (R3) System using their AAMC ID and password. Applicants will be presented with one of the following messages on the Applicant Options page:

1. Congratulations, you have matched!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who is "fully" matched, including

• Applicants who listed and matched to a categorical program.
• Applicants who listed and matched to preliminary and advanced programs.

Other conditions also apply. Applicants who listed only advanced programs on their certified rank order lists and did not list any preliminary positions on a supplemental rank order list will receive this message. Similarly, applicants who included only preliminary programs on their certified rank order lists will receive this statement. The matching algorithm considers an applicant "matched" if he/she lists only one program type on his/her certified rank order list. Applicants who receive this message will not be eligible to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program, nor will they have access to the List of Unfilled Programs.

2. Congratulations, you have matched to an advanced position but not a first year position!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who matched to an advanced position but did not match to a preliminary position listed on a supplemental rank order list. Applicants who receive this message and who are deemed eligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match will have access to the List of Unfilled Programs and will be eligible to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program obtain a preliminary position. Applicants will not have access to information about unfilled categorical or advanced positions.

3. Congratulations, you have matched to a one year position!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who matched to a preliminary position but did not match to an advanced position listed on the primary rank order list. Applicants who receive this message and who are deemed eligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match will have access to the List of Unfilled Programs and will be eligible to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program to obtain an advanced position. Applicants will not have access to information about untilled categorical or preliminary positions.

4. We are sorry, you did not match to any position!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who did not match to any program. For applicants participating as a partner of a couple, this statement also may be displayed if the applicant listed the 999999999 program code on the primary rank order list to indicate '"No Match". Applicants who receive this message and who are deemed eligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match will have access to the List of Unfilled Programs and will be eligible to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program for any category of unfilled positions.

5. You are NOT matched because you did not submit a certified rank order list!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who registered to participate in the Match but did not certify a rank order list prior to the rank order list certification deadline. Applicants who receive this message and who are deemed eligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match will have access to the List of Unfilled Programs and will be eligible to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program for any category of unfilled positions.

6. You are NOT matched because you are withdrawn!
This message will be displayed for any applicant who registered to participate in the Match but was withdrawn either by the medical school or by the NRMP. Applicants who are withdrawn because they are ineligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match will not have access to the List of Unfilled Programs or be allowed to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program unless by 5:00 p.m. eastern time on the Wednesday prior to Match Week the applicant becomes eligible to enter graduate medical education on July 1 in the year of the match. Applicants who were withdrawn by the NRMP because they obtained positions through another matching service will not have access to the List of Unfilled Programs or be allowed to participate in the Match Week Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program.
​

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Getting back to the previous questions / issues:

1. Programs can create slots in several scenarios. First, every program has an ACGME mandated cap. But, no uncommonly (esp in big programs), they are below their total cap. In Internal Medicine: perhaps someone went into the research pathway (which exempts them from their PGY-3), or someone transferred to another specialty after completing their PGY-1 or PGY-2, or someone has become ill and is out on leave, etc. Bottom line is that most programs can work with a smaller number of PGY-3's without much problem, and not many programs are interested in PGY-3 transfers unless there is a very compelling reason.

So, let's say I have 20 residents per year, for a total program of 60 residents. If I plan to be short 1 or 2 PGY-3's next year, I could easily add an extra prelim instead. I wouldn't do so before the match, but if one of my schools students needed a prelim, I would absolutely consider doing it.

Interestingly, the new user guide says this is not allowed. I think that's baloney. If I do it, and the student from my school gets a spot, that's one more spot out there for someone else to get.

2. I think you're misinterpreting the communication rules in SOAP. I am not supposed to speak with outside sources until I've received an ERAS application. Once I have an application, I can talk to anyone I want. US students will still have a marked advantage in SOAP, but this clearly gives IMG's a better chance.