Scrambling into PM&R

[woa]

Ok so I was trying to figure out if scrambling in PM&R is difficult??

I'm asking this because I have a couple IM interviews, and was thinking of wheter of not to go to those. If it's difficult to scramble into PM&R, at least worst case scenario I end up at my second choice of residency...or I lose a chance to scramble into PM&R spot.

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[DubVille]

There were no unmatched positions last year, so unless things change it won't be very likely. Could you do a prelim year and use vacation time to reapply for advanced spots? I met a few people along the interview trail doing this because a few people didn't make it past intern year.

 

[Xardas]

There's a big difference in going into IM or PMR.. and any two medical specialties for that matter. Honest advice.. ask yourself what you really wnat to do: IM or PM&R.

I've known too many residents that switched specialties mid residency. Its a huge stress on them in every way imaginable.

 

[woa]

There's a big difference in going into IM or PMR.. and any two medical specialties for that matter. Honest advice.. ask yourself what you really wnat to do: IM or PM&R.

I've known too many residents that switched specialties mid residency. Its a huge stress on them in every way imaginable.

Well i really want PMR, and I guess maybe it is hard to scramble if I am in that position but there is also the possibility that there could be positions and I would hate to lose that opportunity. I have 11 interviews, hope that they all rank me...and 2 IM interviews. What would you guys do if you were in my position?

 

[Spartyon]

If I were u go for pm&r. Im sure swapping into IM is less of a hassle as long as ur geographically flexible. P&mr has way less spots and is much more competetive nowadays. Best of luck to ya.

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[woa]

If I were u go for pm&r. Im sure swapping into IM is less of a hassle as long as ur geographically flexible. P&mr has way less spots and is much more competetive nowadays. Best of luck to ya.

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I'm not geographically limited, so I guess my scenarios are..

1. don't match, enter scramble, but there happen to be PM&R spots to scramble into

2. rank IM programs last, match IM but there happen to be PM&R spots to scramble into

3. don't match, enter scramble, no PM&R, scramble IM

4. don't match, enter scramble, no PM&R, TY year, apply again (Question for this one, how does this work will have to take a year off between TY and PMR since I'm applying for advanced positions?)

I think those are all the scenarios, and well of course just matching

 

[Baritonebass]

You can't scramble if you match... That would make you a match violator

 

[MedBronc23]

Ok so I was trying to figure out if scrambling in PM&R is difficult??

I'm asking this because I have a couple IM interviews, and was thinking of wheter of not to go to those. If it's difficult to scramble into PM&R, at least worst case scenario I end up at my second choice of residency...or I lose a chance to scramble into PM&R spot.

Agree with prior comments. As someone who did IM prelim year, PMR is different in many ways except for maybe on inpatient rehab, yet still different.

Have you looked into a research year with a stipend. We have a few research fellow sports here at mayo. One sports and msk medicine research spot for PM&R each year. It would be a good résumé builder and also gives you time to do some more rotations in PMR and build your resume with research lor. Our research fellows typically match into top choices in PMR after.

I am sure other similar spots exist in other PMR depts. pm me if you want more info.

 

[DubVille]

If you had 11 pm&r interviews and rank all 11, I would not be very concerned. Ranking 8-9 programs yields over a 95% chance of matching according to the NRMP (there is a link floating around here somewhere.). If you theoretically had to take a "year off" after intern year you could do research. Perhaps you could work at an urgent care as a GP, but I don't know the legalities of only completing an intern year. Good luck in the match, I think you will be fine! I'm only ranking 9 programs, and I'm not too worried!?!

 

[woa]

You can't scramble if you match... That would make you a match violator

Oh yea I understand that...just saying if I ranked IM and I matched IM, and there were PMR spots in the scramble that would just suck lol

If you had 11 pm&r interviews and rank all 11, I would not be very concerned. Ranking 8-9 programs yields over a 95% chance of matching according to the NRMP (there is a link floating around here somewhere.). If you theoretically had to take a "year off" after intern year you could do research. Perhaps you could work at an urgent care as a GP, but I don't know the legalities of only completing an intern year. Good luck in the match, I think you will be fine! I'm only ranking 9 programs, and I'm not too worried!?!

Yea definitely very grateful to have those interviews, and hoping the odds are in my favor. Good luck to you too!

 

[Tromner]

If you had 11 pm&r interviews and rank all 11, I would not be very concerned. Ranking 8-9 programs yields over a 95% chance of matching according to the NRMP (there is a link floating around here somewhere.) ... I'm only ranking 9 programs, and I'm not too worried!?!

I have heard different numbers cited. Recently I heard a PD say that of people that rank 13-15 programs are 95% matched, and previously I heard ranking 10 gets a 95% match rate. Here's what I found on the NRMP site:

They say that based on a survey in 2011, of students that matched into PMR, the median number of programs ranked was 8. However, of people that went unmatched, the median number of programs ranked was 10. (See attached)

So obviously ranking more places gives you more chances to match, but ranking more is actually correlated with not matching? My guess is that people who are less competitive applicants know it and try to avoid not matching by ranking more places.

I know that I interviewed at 10 places and will rank all 10 and still feel nervous. I feel like I'm not more likely to get into my 5th ranked place than my 1st. It doesn't feel like any of them is sure think. Even 95% means that 1 in 20 who were good enough to get 8+ interviews will not match and wind up in a rough situation.

The weeks before the match feel dark.

 

[Tromner]

One more thing: I found the graph that people are probably quoting. From 2011. It does appear that 9-10 gets 95% match rate.

And PS, US seniors means graduating US seniors of allopathic schools, so DOs, FMGs and IMGs have a steeper hill to climb.

Of course ranking 20 gets basically 100% match rate, so maybe I should have gone on lots more interviews...

 

[Spartyon]

Plane ticket $400, hotel $100, rental car $75. Doing this repeatedly for 3-4 months..tiring. Matching v.s. not matching.....priceless. Nowadays you just never know and wanna give yourself the best chance to match. My best advice is go on every interview offered. The amt of cash to go on these trips is nill compared to having not matched and loose a year.

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[DubVille]

You guys are scaring me

Haha good luck in the next few weeks!

 

[Xardas]

Well i really want PMR, and I guess maybe it is hard to scramble if I am in that position but there is also the possibility that there could be positions and I would hate to lose that opportunity. I have 11 interviews, hope that they all rank me...and 2 IM interviews. What would you guys do if you were in my position?

Look if you really want PMR then dont' rank IM. Simple as that. B/c three years after you finish IM unless you really like IM you are going to keep asking yourself.. what if I had just gotten into PMR?

You will realize 10-20-30 years from now it is most important to do ** what you wanted to do **. Secondly, if you lose a year thats okay. Re-apply. Whereas if you do IM you are basically stuck doing that unless you backtrack some where in the middle.

Also as others have said, don't worrya bout the money for hotels and such. This is still small money compared to the happiness or unhappiness you gain from being in the right or wrong field. You will make that money up quickly.. yes, even in the era of health reform doctors still will make decent money.

let me ask you a different question.. If there was a girl that you didn't really want to marry that much .. and she asked you to marry her.. Would you do it? Knowing that there is someone better out there but it may be a year or two before you get her?

I thought so

 

[RangerBob]

Look if you really want PMR then dont' rank IM. Simple as that. B/c three years after you finish IM unless you really like IM you are going to keep asking yourself.. what if I had just gotten into PMR?

You will realize 10-20-30 years from now it is most important to do ** what you wanted to do **. Secondly, if you lose a year thats okay. Re-apply. Whereas if you do IM you are basically stuck doing that unless you backtrack some where in the middle.

Also as others have said, don't worrya bout the money for hotels and such. This is still small money compared to the happiness or unhappiness you gain from being in the right or wrong field. You will make that money up quickly.. yes, even in the era of health reform doctors still will make decent money.

let me ask you a different question.. If there was a girl that you didn't really want to marry that much .. and she asked you to marry her.. Would you do it? Knowing that there is someone better out there but it may be a year or two before you get her?

I thought so

I'd recommend this as well. Though, OP, I'm assuming since you applied to PM&R you probably also applied to prelim-IM and/or TY, correct? If so, just add those programs in order of your preference to your ROL after you PM&R programs--that way, in a worst-case scenario, you fail to match into PM&R (unlikely due to the number of programs you interviewed at, but always possible), you can still match into an intern year. From there you can either pick up a vacant PGY-2 spot if one appears sometime during your PGY-1 year (if you failed to scramble), or apply through the match the following year. I've met a couple PGY-1s on the interview trail for PM&R.

 

[Jitter Bug]

I'd recommend this as well. Though, OP, I'm assuming since you applied to PM&R you probably also applied to prelim-IM and/or TY, correct? If so, just add those programs in order of your preference to your ROL after you PM&R programs--that way, in a worst-case scenario, you fail to match into PM&R (unlikely due to the number of programs you interviewed at, but always possible), you can still match into an intern year. From there you can either pick up a vacant PGY-2 spot if one appears sometime during your PGY-1 year (if you failed to scramble), or apply through the match the following year. I've met a couple PGY-1s on the interview trail for PM&R.

Nope

Don't need to do that. The Match website will explain all.

 

[RangerBob]

Nope

Don't need to do that. The Match website will explain all.

Can you provide a link? Everything I've heard says to add prelims at the end of your main ROL, and I can't find anything on the website that addresses this either way. (For what it's worth, I'm unable to view their "help" file, so perhaps the answer is somewhere in there...)

 

[Kithara]

It is in the help file. It told me it was broken the first time I tried to open it, but I tried it again a few minutes later and it opened a 40-50 page pdf file. Basically you create supplementary lists that you nest below each advanced position you rank.

 

[RangerBob]

It is in the help file. It told me it was broken the first time I tried to open it, but I tried it again a few minutes later and it opened a 40-50 page pdf file. Basically you create supplementary lists that you nest below each advanced position you rank.

I still can't open it--I sent them an e-mail, maybe they can help me out.

I get that there's a supplemental list for each advanced position. But what I'm curious about is what happens if you don't match into an advanced position--then the Match algorithm presumably never looks at any supplemental list, and I'd assume you don't match anywhere, correct? In which case I would think it's best to add the prelim positions to the end of your main ROL. At least that's what the other threads on SDN suggest.

 

[RangerBob]

Here's what the NRMP said in response to an e-mail I sent them. For those who don't want to read everything, the gist of it is that if you do not match into an advanced position from your main list, you will not match into a prelim position either unless you list those prelim positions after all your advanced/categorical positions on the main list. However, if you do so and match to only a prelim position, you will only be able to scramble for advanced positions.

Preliminary programs on the supplemental list will not be considered alone. If the candidate does not first match to an advanced program, the supplemental list is not considered, so the applicant cannot match to a preliminary program alone from the supplemental list.

If an applicant matches to the advanced program but is not matched to a preliminary or transitional program, the system will not invalidate the match to the advanced program and then try to match the applicant to a full i.e. categorical program on the list.

In the case of those applicants who rank advanced, categorical and preliminary programs on the primary rank order list, the system will only match the applicant to one type of program from the primary list.

***Applicants may also rank their preliminary programs after their main program choices on the primary list, if they wish to have those preliminary programs considered as a standalone program, in case they do not match to any of their advanced programs. This increases their chances of at least matching to their first year of training but they will still need to scramble for an advanced year program.

Applicants that decide to rank preliminary programs on their primary rank order lists must consider that if matched to a preliminary program only, from the primary rank list, they will only be able to scramble for advanced programs (which start a year later) and not to categorical programs in the same specialty that start in the year of the match. It is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement for the applicant to take another position in the scramble that prevents them from starting the preliminary program to which they matched.

***For those applicants who do not want to be locked into this scenario and prefer to be able to try for a variety of programs in the scramble, the ranking of preliminary programs on the primary list as a safety net may not be the best choice. Applicants are obligated to honor the matched preliminary year program just as any other and so should weigh the benefits of both methods.