SDN always says basic science grades don't matter...

[DeadCactus]

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While the general medical student thinks that C in Biochemistry means being relegated to Family Practice in Alaska.

Where's the reality lie?

Does doing decent first year rather than excelling mean you've already knocked yourself out of the running for the most competitive residencies (both in terms of special or in terms of the most competitive within a specialty)?

Or is first year really about just adapting and you're fine as long as you're steadily passing and improve each year?

 

[hewmanoid]

For residency application purpose, pre-clinical grades are not as important as your clinical grades and Step I. But, it really depends on what your future goal is. Because excelling in pre-clinical classes will help you attain a higher class rank and ultimately AOA status, if you're shooting for hypercompetitive specialties like derm or plastic, it's almost requisite to get mostly or all honors during your pre-clinical years. That's why I hate it when people generalize, saying pre-clinical years don't matter at all.

 

[DeadCactus]

For residency application purpose, pre-clinical grades are not as important as your clinical grades and Step I. But, it really depends on what your future goal is. Because excelling in pre-clinical classes will help you attain a higher class rank and ultimately AOA status, if you're shooting for hypercompetitive specialties like derm or plastic, it's almost requisite to get mostly or all honors during your pre-clinical years. That's why I hate it when people generalize, saying pre-clinical years don't matter at all.

I guess that's what I'm trying to delineate. If you don't do stellar in the first year (barring failures and straight Cs), have you already destroyed your chance of AOA? Can you in one year destroy your chance at top residencies?

Or is it possible to have a bad year, learn from it, and still come out on top?

Random tangent: Is AOA strictly grades or Step I score as well?

 

[dude1344]

Random tangent: Is AOA strictly grades or Step I score as well?

This varies by chapter (school). Check your school for its personal qualifications.

 

[ChiDO]

My advice that I have always said on SDN is that everything matters. It is toooooo easy to compare numbers, scores, GPA, ect. for pre-clinical grades to not matter.

As mentioned above, class rank, AOA, and awards are usually a combination of everything you have been involved in; thus grades matter.

Some schools do equal emphasis on class rank through all 3 years (4th year usually doesn't matter since you fill out apps...only thing that matters might be for graduation?); while others scale it, 25% for M1-M2, 50% M3.

Your job as a medical student is to do the best you can do with your given skill set. If you want to be junior AOA, usmle 270, class rank#1, well you better be studying all the time. If you want to go back to Montana in your small home town with 2 FP residency spots, then you probably just have to pass your steps and graduate medical school.

Example of AOA selection:

Junior student criteria: 50% pre-clinical grades and 50% USMLE Step 1 score (3-digit score).
Senior student criteria: 25% pre-clinical grades, 25% USMLE Step 1 score, and 50% core clerkship grades (two-thirds clinical, one-third final exam).

 

[sunset823]

While the general medical student thinks that C in Biochemistry means being relegated to Family Practice in Alaska.

first off, I'd like to point out that family practice in Alaska is actually rather competitive - out of 9 seats, 8 were filled with US seniors and one DO

Secondly, this is the way I look at grades - I knew coming in that I would never get AOA, I just am not that amazingly strong at science; secondly, I knew the specialties I'm interested in are not ultra competitive, and I'm 'competing' with people who are interested in those ultra competitive specialties.

However, I didn't want to be last in my class either, because our quartiles do end up on our Dean's letter and I do want to end up in a strong academic program in the field I choose. I work hard enough to stay above the mean (and, of course, learn the material), but am not killing myself for something I'll never achieve (AOA)

Of course, our school is H/P/F, if you have letter grades it may be different, but I think the huge variation in grading systems between schools in M1 and M2 makes these grades have less weight than the Step 1. All passes with a Step 1 > 230 will probably mean more than a 3.5+ GPA with Step 1 < 220.

 

[vicinihil]

Most schools inthe country no longer do A-B-C grading system so our P would look like your A/B/C...that being said, database is still kept to calculate AOA but this too differs from school to school. Some schools induct a large number, some schools don't. At my school we only do 5 by the end of 2nd year and during 3rd year, 15 more are inducted but that's based on grades AND peer recommendation (turned into a popularity contest). Because residency programs know about this (somewhat) I feel like the larger emphasis as people have pointed out is on Step 1/2 and 3rd year clerkships.

I worked for an attending on the residency board at MGH for anesthesiology and he said the basic process is....Take 300 applicants, filter out the highest 100 Step 1 grades for interviews, then compare the rest of the application. Grades and school prestige filters in later.

 

[hewmanoid]

I guess that's what I'm trying to delineate. If you don't do stellar in the first year (barring failures and straight Cs), have you already destroyed your chance of AOA? Can you in one year destroy your chance at top residencies?

Or is it possible to have a bad year, learn from it, and still come out on top?

Random tangent: Is AOA strictly grades or Step I score as well?

Having less than stellar grades during the first 2 years doesn't necessarily squash your chance of getting into the majority of competitive specialties (probably not derm and plastic though..there're simply not enough spots). But, you'd want to try to make up for it by acing your Step I (I'm talking about 240+ here). So, just like other people said, do your best in your classes from now on and rock the boards, then you should be alright.

 

[ChiDO]

Most schools inthe country no longer do A-B-C grading system so our P would look like your A/B/C...that being said, database is still kept to calculate AOA but this too differs from school to school. Some schools induct a large number, some schools don't. At my school we only do 5 by the end of 2nd year and during 3rd year, 15 more are inducted but that's based on grades AND peer recommendation (turned into a popularity contest). Because residency programs know about this (somewhat) I feel like the larger emphasis as people have pointed out is on Step 1/2 and 3rd year clerkships.

From the AOA: From the top quartile of students, each chapter may elect to A&#937;A membership up to one-sixth of the projected number of students that will graduate.

Thus, if you have a class of 300, up to 50 can be choosen, if your class is 100, you only choose 15. I would assume all schools choose the max allowed. So unless your school is 300 and only chooses 15, then you should probably be mad at your school.

 

[FutureDoc4]

To me, were this argument of preclinical grades falls apart is people not seeing this from a residency directors point of view. Everyone in the country has different preclinical grading scales, many (including my school), is P/F. So, how do you really stratify people? Step I, LOR, and PUBLICATIONS.

I've used the first two years to garnish some publications and have focused my first two years on board relevant material rather than what a lecturer wants me to know (though, I have yet to take Step I so I do not know how this will turn out).

So, to me. It is much more important for Step I>Publications>>>preclinical grades (thats even if your school has "grading")

And before everyone jumps on the horse about "the internal ranking". Yes, thats true, but most people fail to realize (I just had this conversation with one of the course directors that I have developed a good relationship with).. that AOA has to be taken from the top 25% but after that faculty VOTE based on many things (usually Step I and PUBLICATIONS--especially if faculty know you and who you are working with). Thus, many perceive it to be a popularity contest. Overall, I think that you should try and do the best you can in your classes nonetheless but I think you can do many other things that will be better for your career than getting a 98% on a neuro exam.

 

[Moonglow]

My advice that I have always said on SDN is that everything matters. It is toooooo easy to compare numbers, scores, GPA, ect. for pre-clinical grades to not matter.

As mentioned above, class rank, AOA, and awards are usually a combination of everything you have been involved in; thus grades matter.

Some schools do equal emphasis on class rank through all 3 years (4th year usually doesn't matter since you fill out apps...only thing that matters might be for graduation?); while others scale it, 25% for M1-M2, 50% M3.

Your job as a medical student is to do the best you can do with your given skill set. If you want to be junior AOA, usmle 270, class rank#1, well you better be studying all the time. If you want to go back to Montana in your small home town with 2 FP residency spots, then you probably just have to pass your steps and graduate medical school.

Example of AOA selection:

Junior student criteria: 50% pre-clinical grades and 50% USMLE Step 1 score (3-digit score).
Senior student criteria: 25% pre-clinical grades, 25% USMLE Step 1 score, and 50% core clerkship grades (two-thirds clinical, one-third final exam).

Most accurate post on this subject. Learn it, live it:

EVERYTHING MATTERS!

 

[FutureDoc4]

Most accurate post on this subject. Learn it, live it:

EVERYTHING MATTERS!

Ugh, Mooglow, please stop perpetuating this stereotype. Everything does NOT matter (or have equal weight). (This type of thinking I think is the reason I have seen increased antisocial craziness from some of my friends at other schools).

People should pick their battles to things that are important.

P.S. I AM interested in a competitive specialty if you were going to go there.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I think the "preclinical grades dont matter" comments are meant to reassure the folks who are doing their best but barely passing that it does not mean they wont get into residency or that they'll be bad doctors.

What does end up happening though is that some people who would normally be making A's and B's take it to mean that you can slack off and do the bare minimum it would take to get a C so long as you ramp it up and really try hard on step 1 to show what you are really capable of.

 

[FutureDoc4]

I think the "preclinical grades dont matter" comments are meant to reassure the folks who are doing their best but barely passing that it does not mean they wont get into residency or that they'll be bad doctors.

What does end up happening though is that some people who would normally be making A's and B's take it to mean that you can slack off and do the bare minimum it would take to get a C so long as you ramp it up and really try hard on step 1 to show what you are really capable of.

Completely disagree. I am by no means "barely passing". I am definitely in the top 10-15% of my class. Could I be in the top 5%? Probably, if I ONLY focused on school work; no lab, no quality time with my fiance, or seeing friends and family. The point of this is that you can do other things and have a life, and no one will care if you got a 98 or a 87-91 on an exam.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Completely disagree. I am by no means "barely passing". I am definitely in the top 10-15% of my class. Could I be in the top 5%? Probably, if I ONLY focused on school work; no lab, no quality time with my fiance, or seeing friends and family. The point of this is that you can do other things and have a life, and no one will care if you got a 98 or a 87-91 on an exam.

Why would you assume i was referring to you. I was answering the question posed by the OP.

True as it may be, people are not going to sit someone who is in the top 5% down and tell them that pre-clinical grades dont matter. More often than not this would be told to someone who is getting down on himself cos he made the first C of his life in freshman biochem.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Why would you assume i was referring to you. I was answering the question posed by the OP.

True as it may be, people are not going to sit someone who is in the top 5% down and tell them that pre-clinical grades dont matter. More often than not this would be told to someone who is getting down on himself cos he made the first C of his life in freshman biochem.

I did not assume you were referring to me. I just wanted to "break the stereotype" that people who "do not care about preclinical grades" are always those that are barely passing (which I thought you were basically implying).

 

[ChiDO]

Completely disagree. I am by no means "barely passing". I am definitely in the top 10-15% of my class. Could I be in the top 5%? Probably, if I ONLY focused on school work; no lab, no quality time with my fiance, or seeing friends and family. The point of this is that you can do other things and have a life, and no one will care if you got a 98 or a 87-91 on an exam.

I would call the top 10-15% pretty good and obviously you are worrying about your grades. I'm probably right around that %% as well, but I know that my grades matter. I could spend extra hours in the library and maybe be in the Top 5 overall in my class, but like you said, I would rather spend it with my friends/wife,ect.

 

[MilkmanAl]

True as it may be, people are not going to sit someone who is in the top 5% down and tell them that pre-clinical grades dont matter.

Really? Why not? That seems like good info for everyone to have, and chances are pretty good that people at the head of their med school class are there because they think they need to be.

 

[FutureDoc4]

I would call the top 10-15% pretty good and obviously you are worrying about your grades. I'm probably right around that %% as well, but I know that my grades matter. I could spend extra hours in the library and maybe be in the Top 5 overall in my class, but like you said, I would rather spend it with my friends/wife,ect.

You are definitely correct in saying that I do care about my grades to some degree (mostly because I want to learn the material). However, I feel I have (at least up to this point) not met anyone in my class who just doesn't care at all about the material. If they didn't care at ALL. Why attend medical school to begin with?

 

[Mr hawkings]

Really? Why not? That seems like good info for everyone to have, and chances are pretty good that people at the head of their med school class are there because they think they need to be.

Oh trust me, i agree with you.

It just doesn't happen that way though. When you're at the top, you get told that all fields are open to you. When you barely pass, they tell you it doesnt mattter.

Futuredoc4, i was referring more to the people dishing out the advice and how they taylor the advice based on how the person is doing. i wasnt really talking about the attitude of the students themselves.
i see your point though

 

[psychforme]

first off, I'd like to point out that family practice in Alaska is actually rather competitive - out of 9 seats, 8 were filled with US seniors and one DO

Wow that sounds competitive... not.

 

[ChiDO]

You are definitely correct in saying that I do care about my grades to some degree (mostly because I want to learn the material). However, I feel I have (at least up to this point) not met anyone in my class who just doesn't care at all about the material. If they didn't care at ALL. Why attend medical school to begin with?

I know individuals in my class that don't study at all on weekends, hardly study during the evening during the week and are getting by with 70-80% in their classwork. They learn enough to pass and that's it. I would call that "not caring" to some extent, but obviously they care enough to pass.

 

[hewmanoid]

Again, the importance of how well one does in pre-clinical years is really relative. For some, having a nice balance in life goes above everything else. For others, getting honors in every single class is the reason of their existence. So, it's a personal choice. But, sadly I've seen quite a few people who take the "P=MD" atttude as a justification for their poor performances. At the same time though there are many who don't fit this stereotype. But, let me assure someone will care one way or another if you get a 98 on your exam. So, it's not really bad at all to keep up the good work.😉

 

[MossPoh]

There IS a place that shows the relative importance of the different criteria by speciality. I think it is on the aamc site? They basically surveyed a bunch of PDs for all the specialities and had them rank things like board scores, grades, publications, clinical grades, etc.

It has been nearly 7 months since I looked at it, but near the top on the vast majority of specialities was board scores, clinical grades, and LORs. Near the bottom 1/3 were publications/research and pre-clinical grades. I think pre-clinical grades are questionable at best. Some people are just flat out better at the sciences, at least at the beginning. Others struggle first year to find strategies that work for them. The list is endless. The great equalizer is the USMLE for those preclinical years. I don't really do as well as much of my class on exams, but I also don't memorize strictly what the professor has on his or her slides. I tend to read textbooks and focus on what my first aid says is important. Crazy I know, but I rather be familiar with that than some obscure research topic.

 

[swman]

There IS a place that shows the relative importance of the different criteria by speciality. I think it is on the aamc site? They basically surveyed a bunch of PDs for all the specialities and had them rank things like board scores, grades, publications, clinical grades, etc.

It has been nearly 7 months since I looked at it, but near the top on the vast majority of specialities was board scores, clinical grades, and LORs. Near the bottom 1/3 were publications/research and pre-clinical grades. I think pre-clinical grades are questionable at best. Some people are just flat out better at the sciences, at least at the beginning. Others struggle first year to find strategies that work for them. The list is endless. The great equalizer is the USMLE for those preclinical years. I don't really do as well as much of my class on exams, but I also don't memorize strictly what the professor has on his or her slides. I tend to read textbooks and focus on what my first aid says is important. Crazy I know, but I rather be familiar with that than some obscure research topic.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed..._Criteria_for_Residency__Results_of_a.24.aspx

 

[Aphtalyfe]

I wonder if there is a correlation between pre-clinical grades and clerkship grades? If so... how strong is it?

 

[indo]

While the general medical student thinks that C in Biochemistry means being relegated to Family Practice in Alaska.

Where's the reality lie?

Does doing decent first year rather than excelling mean you've already knocked yourself out of the running for the most competitive residencies (both in terms of special or in terms of the most competitive within a specialty)?

Or is first year really about just adapting and you're fine as long as you're steadily passing and improve each year?

Biochemistry is the most important thing in the world while you're taking biochem.

The reality lies in your step 1 score.

 

[indo]

Wow that sounds competitive... not.

I'm glad you feel comfortable throwing around wayne's world references.

 

[PranBobbyJohnny]

preclinical grades matter significantly for the most competitive specialties (derm, radonc, plastics), for other competitive specialties like ortho/ophthal/radiology/ent etc they still matter but not nearly as much. at least this is what i heard from interns and m4's

 

[Pontifex Maximus]

They only matter in their ability to get AOA or not. On the large majority of the interview assessment/candidate assessment forms I got to see, its either "AOA yes/no" and places for clinical honors. No separation of any grades in the first 2 years, unless there are huge red flags.

First 2 year grades matter for AOA only - which matters. But only a few get.
Board scores matter.
Clinical grades matter.
And so do other things. But grades/academically, that's how it goes.

 

[45408]

I wonder if there is a correlation between pre-clinical grades and clerkship grades? If so... how strong is it?

A surprise to many people coming into their clerkships is that a big chunk of your grade is determined by the shelf exam, which is - surprise surprise - going to require a fair amount of studying. People who aced M1/M2 classes by studying really hard will be able to really help their grades by doing the same for the shelf exams. You ALSO need to perform well clinically, but if you're a horrible test-taker, your M3 grades are going to suffer from that.

 

[Raryn]

To me, were this argument of preclinical grades falls apart is people not seeing this from a residency directors point of view. Everyone in the country has different preclinical grading scales, many (including my school), is P/F. So, how do you really stratify people? Step I, LOR, and PUBLICATIONS.

I've used the first two years to garnish some publications and have focused my first two years on board relevant material rather than what a lecturer wants me to know (though, I have yet to take Step I so I do not know how this will turn out).

So, to me. It is much more important for Step I>Publications>>>preclinical grades (thats even if your school has "grading")

And before everyone jumps on the horse about "the internal ranking". Yes, thats true, but most people fail to realize (I just had this conversation with one of the course directors that I have developed a good relationship with).. that AOA has to be taken from the top 25% but after that faculty VOTE based on many things (usually Step I and PUBLICATIONS--especially if faculty know you and who you are working with). Thus, many perceive it to be a popularity contest. Overall, I think that you should try and do the best you can in your classes nonetheless but I think you can do many other things that will be better for your career than getting a 98% on a neuro exam.

Read it and weep.

Unless you're applying to plastics or rad-onc, publications matter less than preclinical grades.

Step I=Clinical Grades=LOR>>>>>>>>>>>>Preclinical grades and research (& publications) for the vast majority of specialties.

Edit: Note to self, finish reading the thread before replying to a post, no matter how wrong it is. Got scooped by two separate posters already

 

[Law2Doc]

I wonder if there is a correlation between pre-clinical grades and clerkship grades? If so... how strong is it?

Here's the way it works. Basic science year grades don't really matter to residencies so long as you pass everything. HOWEVER: (1) Step 1 grades matter a ton, and it's very hard to do well on step 1 if you didn't do well in your basic science years, especially second year, (2) AOA can be helpful, and your basic science year grades may matter for that at some schools, (3) class rank may matter to some degree and may affect how you are described in your "dean's letter", (4) in some rotations faculty may already have a pre-existing impression of who are the "smart ones" and who are struggling based on the word of mouth coming from the first two years' faculty. It's certainly possible, for example, to have your IM attending on rotations be the same person who taught you cardiology during second year, etc. So if you struggled in the first two years, he may already have that impression of you before you even present your first patient in year three. Makes it hard to wow someone on rotations if you thinks of you as a C student.

In this last respect there is some resultant relationship between some people's clerkship grades/evals and basic science grades. Now I wouldn't say there is any correlation in "performance", because it's a hugely different role and the person who is quiet and test-smart is often not the same person who is good at people skills, presenting, BS-ing with the attending. It's a hugely different skillset, and the folks that have both skillsets often emerge equally from the top and bottom halves of the class. It also should be noted that you get both a grade (which encompasses a shelf exam grade) and an evaluation, with the latter making far more of an impression on residencies than the former, because it goes to how you will perform in residency.

So the short answer is the grades themselves don't matter, so long as you pass everything, and a couple of Cs (Ps, etc) in first year won't hurt your chances for anything. However you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think that the first two years are something you can coast through and then suddenly emerge as a superstar for the Step 1 and beyond. Doesnt really pan out that way. The folks who work really hard in the first two years put themselves in a better position to do well on the Step and in rotations. So don't sweat a C in the pre-clinical years, but don't let up either. The grades you get in those years won't close any doors, but Step 1 sure will.

 

[njbmd]

I guess that's what I'm trying to delineate. If you don't do stellar in the first year (barring failures and straight Cs), have you already destroyed your chance of AOA? Can you in one year destroy your chance at top residencies?

Or is it possible to have a bad year, learn from it, and still come out on top?

Random tangent: Is AOA strictly grades or Step I score as well?

Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA) is not the end-all of getting into a good residency. It opens doors but most people who are practicing medicine today are not AOA and were not eligible for AOA. If you don't get selected for AOA, your career is not over. Most of the people who wind up selected for AOA are not the ones who sought it in the first place (my experience) and certainly did not NEED AOA for getting into a good residency or specialty. Also keep in mind that none of my patients or colleagues has ever commented on my AOA certificate that hangs on my office wall nor was AOA ever mentioned in my residency other than I participated in some of the chapter activities (very few).


If getting into this society is your "holy grail" then check with the members of the chapter at your school as all chapters have a scholarship requirement. At my school it was scholarship and leadership as well but no one outside of the top 10 folks at the end of first year were eligible (Step I hadn't even been taken). This may not be the case at your school.

 

[Random Anesthesiologist]

first off, I'd like to point out that family practice in Alaska is actually rather competitive - out of 9 seats, 8 were filled with US seniors and one DO

Secondly, this is the way I look at grades - I knew coming in that I would never get AOA, I just am not that amazingly strong at science; secondly, I knew the specialties I'm interested in are not ultra competitive, and I'm 'competing' with people who are interested in those ultra competitive specialties.

However, I didn't want to be last in my class either, because our quartiles do end up on our Dean's letter and I do want to end up in a strong academic program in the field I choose. I work hard enough to stay above the mean (and, of course, learn the material), but am not killing myself for something I'll never achieve (AOA)

Of course, our school is H/P/F, if you have letter grades it may be different, but I think the huge variation in grading systems between schools in M1 and M2 makes these grades have less weight than the Step 1. All passes with a Step 1 > 230 will probably mean more than a 3.5+ GPA with Step 1 < 220.

Do they? I was not aware of this.

 

[thesauce]

Wow that sounds competitive... not.

Seriously...that's not saying much.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Read it and weep.

Unless you're applying to plastics or rad-onc, publications matter less than preclinical grades.

Step I=Clinical Grades=LOR>>>>>>>>>>>>Preclinical grades and research (& publications) for the vast majority of specialties.

Edit: Note to self, finish reading the thread before replying to a post, no matter how wrong it is. Got scooped by two separate posters already

I am not sure what I am suppose to "read and weep" in Table 2 it shows preclinical grades and research publications 12 and 13 respectively. However, as I pointed out many, many schools now do NOT have preclinical grades....so, they have nothing to go on there (Your Dean's letter may give you a class ranking but that takes into account your third year which is accounts much more heavily). We are talking strictly preclinical grades.

And as you pointed out, from Table 3 plastics, optho, radiation oncology, and neuro surgery (some of the most COMPETITIVE specialties---that's what we are suppose to be talking about here right?), give WAY more weight to published research than preclinical grades. (with the caveate that ortho and radiology give them about EQUAL weight, however, as previously stated (ad nauseum) many many schools do not give out grades but P/F for the first two years!)

 

[45408]

And as you pointed out, from Table 3 plastics, optho, radiation oncology, and neuro surgery (some of the most COMPETITIVE specialties---that's what we are suppose to be talking about here right?)

No, we're talking about residency application in general, not the competitive specialties only.

 

[Deferoxamine]

SDN always says basic science grades don't matter...
While the general medical student thinks that C in Biochemistry means being relegated to Family Practice in Alaska.

That's odd. I've always seen it as being completely the other way around. SDNers seem to freak out about the HP in Immunology ruining their chances at a Radiation Urodermatopathorthophthalmic Oncology residency spot, while the "cool" thing at school is to pretend MS1-2 grades don't matter at all.

 

[sunset823]

Wow that sounds competitive... not.

I was just making the point that family practice in AK shouldn't be considered a 'last ditch option' for people who can't get anywhere else, cuz if that was the case, it would be 90% staffed by IMGs who generally can't afford to be picky (nothing against IMGs) - but of course, nobody on SDN could comprehend anything in family practice being desirable or competitive 😱

Do they? I was not aware of this.

yep, like many other schools, quartiles end up on the dean's letter, the dean talked about this at some point in a careers in medicine session

 

[ACSurgeon]

That's odd. I've always seen it as being completely the other way around. SDNers seem to freak out about the HP in Immunology ruining their chances at a Radiation Urodermatopathorthophthalmic Oncology residency spot, while the "cool" thing at school is to pretend MS1-2 grades don't matter at all.

I think it's when SDNers freak out over one random MS-1 course ruining their chances at something that they get a strong wave of IT DOESN'T MATTER to calm them down. At the end of the day, everything matters, but pre-clinical grades significantly less so.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think it's when SDNers freak out over one random MS-1 course ruining their chances at something that they get a strong wave of IT DOESN'T MATTER to calm them down. At the end of the day, everything matters, but pre-clinical grades significantly less so.

See my above post. The grade itself doesn't matter, except marginally insofar as it affects your class rank or keeps you from AOA. The impact the lack of knowledge may have on Step 1 could certainly close doors though. I wouldn't sweat one bad passing grade. It truly will not change where you end up. But if you learn just enough to pass during your first two years, don't be surprised if that lack of foundation catches up to you on things that do matter.

 

[Gifted Hands]

So the short answer is the grades themselves don't matter, so long as you pass everything, and a couple of Cs (Ps, etc) in first year won't hurt your chances for anything. However you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't think that the first two years are something you can coast through and then suddenly emerge as a superstar for the Step 1 and beyond. Doesnt really pan out that way. The folks who work really hard in the first two years put themselves in a better position to do well on the Step and in rotations. So don't sweat a C in the pre-clinical years, but don't let up either. The grades you get in those years won't close any doors, but Step 1 sure will.

Maybe I'm reading into this, but are P's seen equivalent to C's?

If I go to a H/P/F school and I'm unable to get H's in any of my courses (but I'm doing well or pretty close to it) then will I be viewed as mediocre (assuming they care about pre-clin grades).

Sorry I was always curious about this but no one at my school can give me a straight answer. I feel like there is so much conflicting info out there. Everyone says research doesn't matter, but yet everyone does it... Pre-clin grades don't matter, but the people with high step scores usually have good pre-clin grades... confusing 😎

 

[Law2Doc]

Maybe I'm reading into this, but are P's seen equivalent to C's?

If I go to a H/P/F school and I'm unable to get H's in any of my courses (but I'm doing well or pretty close to it) then will I be viewed as mediocre (assuming they care about pre-clin grades).
...

Again, they don't care about pre-clin grades. This is the "dirty little secret" of med schools -- you aren't told this up front because they don't want to discourage you from working hard, but so long as you pass everything, they really don't matter. P/F was put in place by some schools so that folks didn't get the stigma of a C when they barely squeaked by in classes, and it supposedly discourages competitiveness and gunnerism. So a PD won't know if your P is a C or a B, he will just know you didn't honor the thing. The fact that grading systems vary is one big reason that these preclinical year grades don't count. They need a common yardstick to compare folks. That yardstick is Step 1. The grades themselves don't add to the analysis. So they are frequently ignored, except as they impact on other things (step 1 grades, dean's letter wording, AOA.)

 

[vicinihil]

Again, they don't care about pre-clin grades. This is the "dirty little secret" of med schools -- you aren't told this up front because they don't want to discourage you from working hard, but so long as you pass everything, they really don't matter. P/F was put in place by some schools so that folks didn't get the stigma of a C when they barely squeaked by in classes, and it supposedly discourages competitiveness and gunnerism. So a PD won't know if your P is a C or a B, he will just know you didn't honor the thing. The fact that grading systems vary is one big reason that these preclinical year grades don't count. They need a common yardstick to compare folks. That yardstick is Step 1. The grades themselves don't add to the analysis. So they are frequently ignored, except as they impact on other things (step 1 grades, dean's letter wording, AOA.)

I only have P/F...aka no ones knows where you stand if you didn't make AOA...you could've been one student away or 100 students away...who knows and who cares...when you do get AOA you can be first or the last student inducted...once again, who knows and who cares

 

[deuce924]

Again, they don't care about pre-clin grades. This is the "dirty little secret" of med schools -- you aren't told this up front because they don't want to discourage you from working hard, but so long as you pass everything, they really don't matter. P/F was put in place by some schools so that folks didn't get the stigma of a C when they barely squeaked by in classes, and it supposedly discourages competitiveness and gunnerism. So a PD won't know if your P is a C or a B, he will just know you didn't honor the thing. The fact that grading systems vary is one big reason that these preclinical year grades don't count. They need a common yardstick to compare folks. That yardstick is Step 1. The grades themselves don't add to the analysis. So they are frequently ignored, except as they impact on other things (step 1 grades, dean's letter wording, AOA.)

Great Explanation....

 

[bencasey]

Again, they don't care about pre-clin grades. This is the "dirty little secret" of med schools -- ....The grades themselves don't add to the analysis. So they are frequently ignored, except as they impact on other things (step 1 grades, dean's letter wording, AOA.)

Uh, guess again. The only people who say that preclinical grades don't matter are administrators who are trying to reduce the stress and anxiety among med students and med students whose preclinical grades aren't much. Yeah, "P/F" does neutralize the grade situation a bit, but a "P" in a school with highly competitive admission standards probably means more than a "P" from a relatively new, unproven school. Step 1 scores do matter, particularly without preclinical grades and class ranks. Remember that the NRMP process requires a linear rank list, not a grouping of applicants. So that "C" in anatomy might influence where you rank, and maybe determine if you are high enough on the list to match at that program.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Uh, guess again. The only people who say that preclinical grades don't matter are administrators who are trying to reduce the stress and anxiety among med students and med students whose preclinical grades aren't much.

... and residency directors, when surveyed on what factors are most important to them.

 

[45408]

So that "C" in anatomy might influence where you rank, and maybe determine if you are high enough on the list to match at that program.

That's like an applicant making a rank list based on which program has the nicest cafeteria. If they're making decisions based on criteria that obscure, they ****ed up somewhere.

 

[bencasey]

... and residency directors, when surveyed on what factors are most important to them.

"Most important" doesn't mean that other factors are unimportant. And if you are a competitive program with a large number of applicants, the "less important" items may come into play.
And for less competitive specialties and lesser-known programs, having an MD degree and a pulse may be all you need to match there.