SDN always says basic science grades don't matter...

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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sunset823 said:
yep, like many other schools, quartiles end up on the dean's letter, the dean talked about this at some point in a careers in medicine session
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Never attended a careers in medicine session and they're not podcast.

These grades are pretty subjective - you could end up in the 3rd or 4th quartile and still do well (meaning you scored well on the exam) if the class as a whole is a good class. I tend to look at the exam score distribution and make that my motivation.

I'm more worried about step 1 next year.
 
bencasey said:
"Most important" doesn't mean that other factors are unimportant. And if you are a competitive program with a large number of applicants, the "less important" items may come into play.
And for less competitive specialties and lesser-known programs, having an MD degree and a pulse may be all you need to match there.
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This "all else equal" stuff never actually comes into play, especially when we are talking about a criterion that is considered far less important to residency programs than completely subjective factors like personality.
 
JacobSilge said:
This "all else equal" stuff never actually comes into play, especially when we are talking about a criterion that is considered far less important to residency programs than completely subjective factors like personality.
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I would imagine, (for example) if I wanted to match into gen surg, that how I did on my gen surg rotation + shelf and step 1 scores would be more important than getting a P in all courses of MS1.

I guess I'm just not overly worried at this point as an MS1?

Next year I'll be posting about step 1 scores and the year after that rotation scores, and in 3 years about matching. The proof will be in the pudding then, I suppose.
 
Random MS said:
...The proof will be in the pudding then, I suppose.
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The actual quote, from Miguel de Cervantes, is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Check it out if you don't believe me.
 
bencasey said:
"Most important" doesn't mean that other factors are unimportant. And if you are a competitive program with a large number of applicants, the "less important" items may come into play.
And for less competitive specialties and lesser-known programs, having an MD degree and a pulse may be all you need to match there.
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Having gone through the plastics interview trail and talked to lots of applicants and program directors I can definitely confirm they don't give a crap about preclinical grades. Everything about the first two years gets distilled into Step 1 for ease of comparison.
 
bencasey said:
The actual quote, from Miguel de Cervantes, is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". Check it out if you don't believe me.
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Cool story bro. The commonly used idiom is "The proof is in the pudding". 13M google results vs 700K. Also, Cervantes used a different form of it: "al freír de los huevos lo verá". "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" was introduced into Don Quixote by a rather shoddy 18th century translator, although the phrase itself predates Cervantes.
 
KeyzerSoze said:
Cool story bro. The commonly used idiom is "The proof is in the pudding". 13M google results vs 700K. Also, Cervantes used a different form of it: "al freír de los huevos lo verá". "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" was introduced into Don Quixote by a rather shoddy 18th century translator, although the phrase itself predates Cervantes.
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Since when does the frequency of Google hits equal literary or linguistic accuracy? Common usage is just that, common. But not necessarily accurate or correct.
 
Advice I got from a guy who matched Urology this year:

He told me that grades matter in the context of your class rank. He said for competitive residencies, don't slip below top 25% (this just looks good and gives you a shot at AOA). He went on to mention that normally there is a fairly strong correlation between doing well in your classes and doing well on Step 1.

Thus, doing well in your classes will never hurt you. If you want to tailor your studying towards Step 1 and get B's and C's in your courses, I think doing well on Step 1 is going to be quite important for you if you decide to go into certain residencies.
 
ChiDO said:
I guess an interesting question would be:

3.8 GPA, top 10 class rank, 230 Step 1

vs.

3.2 GPA, bottom 50%, 250 step 1
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I would take the 250... that is assuming the two students had similar 3rd year grades and equal strength LORs. If the "3.2" person got a 3.2 because he had a 4.0 in 1st/2nd year and then a 2.8 in 3rd year... you can rest assured that his 250 won't get him far. If it were the other way around (a 2.8 in the preclinical years and a 4.0 in third year) he would be as good as having an overall 4.0 (except for hopkins or something).

As the common saying goes: no step 1 score is high enough to prevent you from going unmatched.
 
lazymed said:
I would take the 250... that is assuming the two students had similar 3rd year grades and equal strength LORs. If the "3.2" person got a 3.2 because he had a 4.0 in 1st/2nd year and then a 2.8 in 3rd year... you can rest assured that his 250 won't get him far. If it were the other way around (a 2.8 in the preclinical years and a 4.0 in third year) he would be as good as having an overall 4.0 (except for hopkins or something).

As the common saying goes: no step 1 score is high enough to prevent you from going unmatched.
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Despite this and despite what is said (and what I say) about pre-clinical grades, having super high pre-clinical grades can give you a little boost (in GPA and class rank) if it makes up for the subjectiveness that is third year grading.
 
I guess the bottom line here is pre-clinical grades are much less important than boards, clerkship grades and letter of rec. But, remember excellent pre-clinical grades will only help you through the residency application process, not hurt you. Also, while it's true that grading standards vary among different schools, a person's pre-clinical grades will indeed objectively compare the person with other students from the same school.
 
hewmanoid said:
I guess the bottom line here is pre-clinical grades are much less important than boards, clerkship grades and letter of rec. But, remember excellent pre-clinical grades will only help you through the residency application process, not hurt you. Also, while it's true that grading standards vary among different schools, a person's pre-clinical grades will indeed objectively compare the person with other students from the same school.
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👍
 
hewmanoid said:
I guess the bottom line here is pre-clinical grades are much less important than boards, clerkship grades and letter of rec. But, remember excellent pre-clinical grades will only help you through the residency application process, not hurt you. Also, while it's true that grading standards vary among different schools, a person's pre-clinical grades will indeed objectively compare the person with other students from the same school.
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great summary 😉

I'll add to that the fact that residency matching is just as random of a crap shoot as med school application (if not worse). So, ONE bad grade won't make or break you (excluding step 1).
 
ChiDO said:
I guess an interesting question would be:

3.8 GPA, top 10 class rank, 230 Step 1

vs.

3.2 GPA, bottom 50%, 250 step 1
Click to expand...

Depends on the field. I think most places would err towards the step 1, as long as the clinical grades aren't whats bringing them down. Lots of schools grade inflate, and if someone had a 230 and a top 10 rank they're either inflating or had a bad test day.
 
Pontifex Maximus said:
Depends on the field. I think most places would err towards the step 1, as long as the clinical grades aren't whats bringing them down. Lots of schools grade inflate, and if someone had a 230 and a top 10 rank they're either inflating or had a bad test day.
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But they'd be grade inflating for everyone, so that top 10 rank would still require doing better than the rest of your class.
 
Regardless of the actual percentage weight they put on Basic Sciences vs. USMLE - the two are tied in together. Just as in the USMLE Step 1 there are fewer Basic Science questions than there are Pathology Questions - so too goes the weight of the two subjects in applications.

I would say - do well in Basic Science courses, this will give an advantage on the Basic Science questions on the USMLE. If you have the basic sciences down, you will be able to answer that 10% of questions on the USMLE that will give you an advantage over students who just think "Basic Sciences don't matter."

Basically, get good grades first year and second year. There is less weight to Basic Sciences in the USMLE and thus less weight for your match. Not necessarily that they average those grades at less weight.

Stark

USMLE Audio
Gold Standard Audio
 
I'm really hoping there's a way to make up for my mediocre basic science grades, or that they don't matter that much. in my MSI year, so far I've gotten C's in my first 2 courses and it looks like I'll get a B in this one. I'm definitely on the lower side of average.

I know that it sounds arrogant, that many people never have the chance to go to medical school, but i feel I should be doing better. I went to an ivy-plus undergrad, majored in bio, graduated with phi beta kappa, 35+ mcat, and interviewed at research-heavy schools like Baylor, Columbia, Duke, Hopkins, Northwestern, Washu etc. I chose to go to my state school because of money and because I'm not planning a career in academic medicine, and feel I should be doing better for the amount of effort I put in. But though I'm working my ass off, it's not paying off at all like in college. I feel like i can't remember anything, all the details i need to remember just get mixed up. Am I just naive? childish? a victim of undergrad grade inflation?

I'm not sure what specialty I want to go into yet but I hate the thought that some choices are already being eliminated by these first preclinical months

Any thoughts?
 
Twenty5 said:
I'm really hoping there's a way to make up for my mediocre basic science grades, or that they don't matter that much. in my MSI year, so far I've gotten C's in my first 2 courses and it looks like I'll get a B in this one. I'm definitely on the lower side of average.
I know that it sounds arrogant, that many people never have the chance to go to medical school, but i feel I should be doing better. I went to an ivy-plus undergrad, majored in bio, graduated with phi beta kappa, 35+ mcat, and interviewed at research-heavy schools like Baylor, Columbia, Duke, Hopkins, Northwestern, Washu etc. I chose to go to my state school because of money and because I'm not planning a career in academic medicine, and feel I should be doing better for the amount of effort I put in. But though I'm working my ass off, it's not paying off at all like in college. I feel like i can't remember anything, all the details i need to remember just get mixed up. Am I just naive? childish? a victim of undergrad grade inflation? I'm not sure what specialty I want to go into yet but I hate the thought that some choices are already being eliminated by these first preclinical months. Any thoughts?
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While you can't make the grades you already have disappear, doing well on Step 1 and then on your clinical rotations may go a long way toward improving your situation. I have known plenty of students who were obviously quite intelligent, from excellent undergrad schools, who didn't do nearly as well in the first year of med school as they (or we) might have predicted. Not sure what the reason is, but it isn't always lack of effort or focus. I think there is an aptitude toward studying for and taking MCQ course-based tests that gives some students an advantage, independent of how well they truly "know" or understand the material.
 
Azadre said:
Let's take this a step further:

top 10 class rank, 230 Step 1 at Drexel

bottom 50%, 250 step 1 at Hopkins
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That's an easier question to answer. Hopkins, clearly.
 
PranBobbyJohnny said:
What about:

Junior AOA, 245 step 1 NYU

Bottom 25%, 250 step 1 Harvard
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Would the #1 in reputation, and 5 step 1 pts, place this candidate above a candidate with junior AOA from a top 15 school? What about at non-harvard affiliated hospitals?
 
dude who got a 250 and is still in the bottom quartile? yeah, it's a safe bet that guy isn't living up to his potential. plus he must've sucked a$s on rotations
 
turkeyjerky said:
dude who got a 250 and is still in the bottom quartile? yeah, it's a safe bet that guy isn't living up to his potential. plus he must've sucked a$s on rotations
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The truth is it's much easier to do well in pre-clinical classes than on the boards. Also, most people who do very well on the boards tend to excel in basic science classes, regardless of which institution they come from, but not necessarily the other way around. If somebody got over 250 on Step I, I find it hard to believe the person is in the bottom quartile (although there could've been some kind of extraordinary personal circumstances that can justify the discrepancy). So, these so-called hypothetical cases in this thread don't really make much sense to me. Anyways, let's simply do our best and see what happens in the 4th year!🙂
 
I got all Pass grades (ie, no Honors or High Pass) in my school's basic science curriculum. 2 years of ho-hum, C-average grades, often somewhat below the class average.

I then proceded to get almost 250 on step 1, Honor all but one of my clinical clerkships, get elected to AOA, and match in neurosurgery.

The moral of the story is: preclinical grades are important if you want to get Junior AOA. They in no way correlate with your potential as a physician, and some would argue that there is actually a negative correlation between high preclinical grades and skill in patient care. Do not get discouraged if you are struggling through biochemistry or renal physiology. There are a lot of excellent doctors, even people in high-powered specialties and positions, who were in your shoes at one point.
 
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

From the NRMP... amongst all specialties it is a toss up between Step 3 scores (wouldn't have taken those anyways) and honors in basic sciences as the least important factors.


Don't worry about killing your first two years... be competitive and be prepared to impress in 3rd year. Know what you want to do and be involved in it extensively 3rd and 4th year. Kill step 1, get great evaluations, and knock your pertinent clerkships our of the water.

AOA is a perk for derm, plastics, ent but it isn't necessary for anything. Essentially if the residency program director likes you then you are in... this is the medical school interview but it actually matters a whole hell of a lot. If they like you and you fit in then you will be ranked highly by them... sell them on the idea that working with you for the next 3-5 years would be a GOOD thing. No one above you gives a crap about your first two years grades 🙂
 
Anyone have any thoughts about someone going to a US MD school who needs to repeat M1? I've pretty much resolved the issues I was having (study habits), and things have been going great (auditing the rest of M1 currently). I don't expect to have any more problems from now on. If anything, I'd like to think that my repetition of M1 will give me a solid foundation for M2, which would help me do better in it, which could help me do better on step 1 (or maybe I could be simply lying to myself?).

Not that I mind FM, but if you were to be completely honest with me, how screwed am I? Is IM at a decent university program something that's out of the question? I'm very interested in hemonc (I know I'm an M1 and have no clue what the heck it is that I want, but let's just say I still want it in 4 yrs) - is it something feasible?

Does anyone have any experience with something like this? Or maybe know someone who went through this? Do PG's not even look at my application when they find out it took me 3 years to complete my preclinicals?

any thoughts/info/advice/words of widsom, etc... would be VERY much appreciated.

thanks for your help! 🙂
 
repeating said:
Anyone have any thoughts about someone going to a US MD school who needs to repeat M1? I've pretty much resolved the issues I was having (study habits), and things have been going great (auditing the rest of M1 currently). I don't expect to have any more problems from now on. If anything, I'd like to think that my repetition of M1 will give me a solid foundation for M2, which would help me do better in it, which could help me do better on step 1 (or maybe I could be simply lying to myself?).

Not that I mind FM, but if you were to be completely honest with me, how screwed am I? Is IM at a decent university program something that's out of the question? I'm very interested in hemonc (I know I'm an M1 and have no clue what the heck it is that I want, but let's just say I still want it in 4 yrs) - is it something feasible?

Does anyone have any experience with something like this? Or maybe know someone who went through this? Do PG's not even look at my application when they find out it took me 3 years to complete my preclinicals?

any thoughts/info/advice/words of widsom, etc... would be VERY much appreciated.

thanks for your help! 🙂
Click to expand...

I don't think anything is out of the picture for you at this point. Just do the best you can going forward. Good luck!
 
Law2Doc said:
Again, they don't care about pre-clin grades. This is the "dirty little secret" of med schools -- you aren't told this up front because they don't want to discourage you from working hard, but so long as you pass everything, they really don't matter. P/F was put in place by some schools so that folks didn't get the stigma of a C when they barely squeaked by in classes, and it supposedly discourages competitiveness and gunnerism. So a PD won't know if your P is a C or a B, he will just know you didn't honor the thing. The fact that grading systems vary is one big reason that these preclinical year grades don't count. They need a common yardstick to compare folks. That yardstick is Step 1. The grades themselves don't add to the analysis. So they are frequently ignored, except as they impact on other things (step 1 grades, dean's letter wording, AOA.)
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The pre clinical grades themselves do matter depending on a few factors. It matters the greatest in those schools that use pre clinical grades as a major determinant for AOA status. At my school, preclinical grades and clinical grades are both used in determining AOA. For those schools that don't count pre clinical grades at all for AOA status, it definitely counts for less, but residency program directors do look at it though much less in terms of its impact. While various schools do have different grading styles preclinically, the breakdown is actually listed in the information sent to various residency programs (whether only P/f first 2 years or not). People really count step 1 scores waaaaay too much on this forum. Step 1 is not the most important factor. According to a Program director's survery, which you can find probably on aamc, the #1 important criteria is your 3rd year clerkship grades, then followed by number of honors grades, class rank, and AOA status. Step 1 according to the study is more middle of the pack. In general I feel step 1 is used more as a screening tool for applications to look at for interview invites from the PD, rather than what gets you into a program. Ex) Step 1 ~ 260, no honors but just pass in medicine --> hard to get an interview at any of the top 10 IM programs unless you are from a top 10 school. Ex) Step 1 ~ 230, honor medicine, --> higher probability
 
Pontifex Maximus said:
Depends on the field. I think most places would err towards the step 1, as long as the clinical grades aren't whats bringing them down. Lots of schools grade inflate, and if someone had a 230 and a top 10 rank they're either inflating or had a bad test day.
Click to expand...

I think in general this differs with the specialty, but overall Def the person who has a top 10 rank with the 230 over the 250, easy. I am one of those with the 230 and top 10 ranking in my class and I easily got more interviews at top programs than other classmates of mine did not get, who had higher scores of 245 +. 3rd year clerkship grades the #1 most important thing!
 
GMed said:
The pre clinical grades themselves do matter depending on a few factors. It matters the greatest in those schools that use pre clinical grades as a major determinant for AOA status. At my school, preclinical grades and clinical grades are both used in determining AOA. For those schools that don't count pre clinical grades at all for AOA status, it definitely counts for less, but residency program directors do look at it though much less in terms of its impact. While various schools do have different grading styles preclinically, the breakdown is actually listed in the information sent to various residency programs (whether only P/f first 2 years or not). People really count step 1 scores waaaaay too much on this forum. Step 1 is not the most important factor. According to a Program director's survery, which you can find probably on aamc, the #1 important criteria is your 3rd year clerkship grades, then followed by number of honors grades, class rank, and AOA status. Step 1 according to the study is more middle of the pack. In general I feel step 1 is used more as a screening tool for applications to look at for interview invites from the PD, rather than what gets you into a program. Ex) Step 1 ~ 260, no honors but just pass in medicine --> hard to get an interview at any of the top 10 IM programs unless you are from a top 10 school. Ex) Step 1 ~ 230, honor medicine, --> higher probability
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you take a look at that AAMC survey you cite, because it directly contradicts what you just said. Step 1 scores are often in the top 2 in order of importance.

You may "feel" differently, but the data speaks for itself. Step 1 is as important as people make it out to be here.
 
repeating said:
Anyone have any thoughts about someone going to a US MD school who needs to repeat M1? I've pretty much resolved the issues I was having (study habits), and things have been going great (auditing the rest of M1 currently). I don't expect to have any more problems from now on. If anything, I'd like to think that my repetition of M1 will give me a solid foundation for M2, which would help me do better in it, which could help me do better on step 1 (or maybe I could be simply lying to myself?).

Not that I mind FM, but if you were to be completely honest with me, how screwed am I? Is IM at a decent university program something that's out of the question? I'm very interested in hemonc (I know I'm an M1 and have no clue what the heck it is that I want, but let's just say I still want it in 4 yrs) - is it something feasible?

Does anyone have any experience with something like this? Or maybe know someone who went through this? Do PG's not even look at my application when they find out it took me 3 years to complete my preclinicals?

any thoughts/info/advice/words of widsom, etc... would be VERY much appreciated.

thanks for your help! 🙂
Click to expand...

At my school (not top 20), I know a few people who had to repeat a year and one went on to match ortho, the other 2 in IM university programs.
 
ChimpanzeeMinky said:
I'd suggest you take a look at that AAMC survey you cite, because it directly contradicts what you just said. Step 1 scores are often in the top 2 in order of importance.

You may "feel" differently, but the data speaks for itself. Step 1 is as important as people make it out to be here.
Click to expand...

I did take a look at it and in fact it does not contradict what I say. THe survey I am talking about is from Iserson's guide to residency apps and gives the actual ranking of importance of things as opposed a general is this important. Ex) #1 most important are your clinical grades. #2 number of honors you have, etc... --> based on the survey you are quoting all it is, is a view of whether step 1 is important or not. The answer is of course its important, but it doesn't say whether or not its more important than clinical grades. Unless I just completely missed the ranking part.
I am not trying to say that Step 1 is not important. It absolutely is to get you in the door, but a high step 1 > 260 by itself is not going to get you into a top program, whereas someone with a 230+ and good clinical grades will.

The survey if you want to see it is on academicmedicine 1999; 74 (1):51-58
 
GMed said:
I did take a look at it and in fact it does not contradict what I say. THe survey I am talking about is from Iserson's guide to residency apps and gives the actual ranking of importance of things as opposed a general is this important. Ex) #1 most important are your clinical grades. #2 number of honors you have, etc... --> based on the survey you are quoting all it is, is a view of whether step 1 is important or not. The answer is of course its important, but it doesn't say whether or not its more important than clinical grades. Unless I just completely missed the ranking part.

The survey if you want to see it is on american medicine 1999; 74 (1):51-58
Click to expand...

There are two sections for each specialty. The first one only indicates importance in isolation, as you state. The second section shows the relative importance placed by the PDs on each criterion.

As for the survey you mention, I would suspect that things may have changed fairly significantly since 1999.
 
ChimpanzeeMinky said:
There are two sections for each specialty. The first one only indicates importance in isolation, as you state. The second section shows the relative importance placed by the PDs on each criterion.

As for the survey you mention, I would suspect that things may have changed fairly significantly since 1999.
Click to expand...

Yes I did see the relative importance section, but its not the relative importance compared with each other as my survey showed. Its basically a survey where between 1 to 5 rate the importance with 5 being the most important. There is no direct comparison between the actual variables in question. Regardless your point is well taken and I know where you are coming from, but again one thing I want people to know really is that if you get a less than ideal step 1 score, its not the end of the world. You don't need 250 + to interview for IM at MGH (230+ is fine), but you do need to honor medicine to interview at MGH (high pass won't cut it unless you are from a top 20 school).
 
GMED, check out the NBME article I listed above...

using 11 year old data doesn't give a good feel for what the current climate is but the NBME shows that Step 1 has gotten a lot more important recently.
 
GMed said:
The survey if you want to see it is on academicmedicine 1999; 74 (1):51-58
Click to expand...
They published an updated survey in 2009 (January I think). It would be much better to look at that article than the one from a decade ago.
 
What's the big deal? MS1 and 2 grades don't matter as much as MS3 grades, step one, or LOR's, but Step One is ALL stuff from those first two years. So it's probably in your best interest to do well in those classes.

Debate over?
 
What is "doing well"? Bs? As?

Some people get all As but forget material quickly but some people get Bs and remember what they learned.

I think it's important to just do your best while keeping your sanity and to focus on gaining as much knowledge as you can. The more you know, the better off you'll be.

At least that's my attitude.
 
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