second class citizens

[suckermc]

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alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

 

[Taus]

Having this come from someone at a "prestigious" private school who would actually let words like that come out of her mouth should tell you all you need about what to think....(plenty of 4 letter words starting w/ the letter c and ending w/ the letters unt come to mind...) You should go back and ask her what she thinks about us poor souls who attended a...dare i say...public college and public highschool.....or even a lower "ranked" college then hers...I'm sure she'd have a glowing opinion of them too...

Remember these words of wisdom "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and most of them are full of $hit"

P.S. If you are going into medicine be prepared to be around plenty of prestige-***** egomaniacs who will always find a reason to "prove" that they are better then you. Just a fact of life...

 

[cyclohexanol]

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

Definitely not true. There will always be people who feel that DO is not a "real" doctor, but the fact is, they're just ignorant and flat out wrong. I'm sure to this girl you're talking about, people who don't drive a mercedes are second class citizens, so I wouldn't worry about her opinion.

For what it is worth, my aunt is a DO (NYCOM), completed a allopathic residency in radiology, an allopathic fellowship (thoraco-abdominal radiology) at University of Virginia (allopathic), and is board certified in radiology (allopathic). She is also a Naval Commander (formerly a US Army Colonel).

I would have a hard time believing that anyone would consider her a "second class citizen". I would challenge this girl you met to say otherwise.

My aunt's experience is that as long as you're board ceritifed, nobody gives a **** what letters come after your name, and that when she gets requested at facilities all over the world, she's just "doctor".


my $0.02

 

[NonTradMed]

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

Ok, here's a comment on DO schools from a girl who went to a "private, high prestige university" and who will be attending an MD school this fall: DO docs are cool! 😀

Look, having attended a highly ranked school, I know that alot of students are not pushed into DO because many of them are prestige conscious. I admit I am as well, but more important to me than some premed's idea of prestige was the idea of becoming a doctor. My life would be much more negatively affected by not attending med school than by doing DO. I didn't go into medicine so I can tell everyone I am 'an MD', I wanted to do it to be a doctor and do doctor-y stuff. 😳

I applied and was accepted into DO schools, including my top choice. I ended up choosing my instate school b/c it's cheap and cheap...and I admit it, it's also 'ranked'....however, I would have been happy to attend CCOM had my instate school not accepted me.

A lot of students in top schools are pushed to believe that there are two types of medical schools you can do: MD schools or the prestige MD schools. No dental, pharm, or DOs.

People at top schools are prestige conscious---it's part of the reason they attend high prestige schools. There's nothing bad with that, but sometimes, people get a skewed view of the world.

Also, you mentioned she was a junior, preparing to take her MCAT, so she's probably thinking she'll do well and get into her top choice blah blah. Well, I knew a lot students at my school who thought the same thing and ended up 'settling' for the generic state MD schools. Some even had to settle for---gasp!---DO schools. 🙂

Don't worry about the girl. She's just speaking out of ignorance and arrogance. Alot of kids who thought they were headed to Harvard Med started talking highly of 'less ranked' med schools once they start the process and see no interviews at the ivies.

Reality doesn't always settle in until application time. The girl may not realize how her grades stack up against the rest of the applicant pool---many applicants don't until they start the process. The girl may also think she'll ace her MCAT because she aced her SAT (presumably). See how she does on her MCAT and then ask her what she thinks about DO schools---you may be surprised at the answer.

 

[Raven Feather]

How old was this girl? The reason I ask is because it seems like an overwhelming amount of the silly comments tend to come from people who have "not grown up yet." You know, how in high school, being "popular" was prestigious among peers so all that was cared about was how one ranked in the eyes of others (being on the football team, cheerleading squad etc.)?--it is sort of a continuation of that. There is one thing that I have learned in my life, and that is humility. I just don't see the rationalization in this building up of a medical doctor heirarchy that certain types of people tend to promote and uphold. To be quite honest, before this app process I didn't care whether I was a DO/MD as long as I was a physician turns out I'm going to be a D.O. How awesome! and I would be just as/equally happy if I was going to be an M.D. People make more out of a difference of initials than needed and it is so insignificant and shallow.

 

[Bill_Brasky]

Ok, here's a comment on DO schools from a girl who went to a "private, high prestige university" and who will be attending an MD school this fall: DO docs are cool! 😀

Look, having attended a highly ranked school, I know that alot of students are not pushed into DO because many of them are prestige conscious. I admit I am as well, but more important to me than some premed's idea of prestige was the idea of becoming a doctor. My life would be much more negatively affected by not attending med school than by doing DO. I didn't go into medicine so I can tell everyone I am 'an MD', I wanted to do it to be a doctor and do doctor-y stuff. 😳

I applied and was accepted into DO schools, including my top choice. I ended up choosing my instate school b/c it's cheap and cheap...and I admit it, it's also 'ranked'....however, I would have been happy to attend CCOM had my instate school not accepted me.

A lot of students in top schools are pushed to believe that there are two types of medical schools you can do: MD schools or the prestige MD schools. No dental, pharm, or DOs.

People at top schools are prestige conscious---it's part of the reason they attend high prestige schools. There's nothing bad with that, but sometimes, people get a skewed view of the world.

Also, you mentioned she was a junior, preparing to take her MCAT, so she's probably thinking she'll do well and get into her top choice blah blah. Well, I knew a lot students at my school who thought the same thing and ended up 'settling' for the generic state MD schools. Some even had to settle for---gasp!---DO schools. 🙂

Don't worry about the girl. She's just speaking out of ignorance and arrogance. Alot of kids who thought they were headed to Harvard Med started talking highly of 'less ranked' med schools once they start the process and see no interviews at the ivies.

Reality doesn't always settle in until application time. The girl may not realize how her grades stack up against the rest of the applicant pool---many applicants don't until they start the process. The girl may also think she'll ace her MCAT because she aced her SAT (presumably). See how she does on her MCAT and then ask her what she thinks about DO schools---you may be surprised at the answer.

😍

 

[NewNick]

Just ignore those ignorant comments. Wait until you rock the boards, then she will shut the **** up.

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

 

[Nate]

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

Premeds commenting on what life as a physician is are like people watching Star Wars then claiming to know all there is to know about space travel. There is plenty of information on the whole MD versus DO thing in the FAQ.

 

[StudentDO2010]

I have a 3.9 and an MCAT score that is probably a lot higher than what hers is going to be.....And i'm going to a DO school. I like the people, I like the way they approach medicine, and i think its going to help me become a better doctor. My father is an MD, and him and every doctor he has talked to says the same thing. They all see each other as physicians, he worked with some for a long time not even knowing if they were MDs or DOs.

 

[ShyRem]

Exactly the kind of doctor I would never go to - one who is in it for the 'prestige' and not to be a physician, healer, and educator for their patients.

Send her an email with the definition of 'humility'.

 

[docbill]

Shyrem.. you brought up an interesting point.

There are definitely some doctors who I would never go to.

Today I went to get a paper signed.. and I went to a walk in clinic.. since its just a simple thing (plus I don't have a family doctor). I was really comfortable with this older doc. Maybe 55-60 yrs old. But he had a sence of humur. That is always nice.

He asked me:

Any family history of heart problems?
I said: NO

Any history of Cancer?
I said: NO

Neurological disorders?
I said: The are crazy sometimes.

Do you smoke?
I said: Stoped 2.2 years ago.

Do you drink?
I said: low, but I should be doing much more as a student. Being in University for 10 years now, I should be an alcoholic.

He said we will take my blood pressure... I said sure. But I will warn you I had a second coffee not too long ago and my bladder may be full.

I asked him to check my ear.. cause I feel something is in there when I am using the Q-Tip.

So he did and said it is just a bit of wax. It will disolve and go away on its own.

I asked: Can you use that as an excuse for not hearing my g.Friend or what she asked me to do?

He said: Yeah, you sure can. I have proof of that.

So we had a good laugh.

 

[MedicineNutt]

In my opinion, DO's are better prepared than MD's...DO's actually know how to interact with patients while MD's just have knowledge but no physical knowledge...it helps a patient when a doctor knows how to treat them mentally and physically...however, DO and MD are both equal and there shouldnt be arguements against physicians with different initials...i hate to bring this up, but people make this like a racial war where DO's = black ppl vs MD = white ppl...THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO BE PROUD OF IF YOU'RE AN MD!!! DO's and MD's ride side-by-side

oh and btw my doc is a DO and before this month i didnt even notice because everyone calls him doc...so it doesnt matter DO or MD--in the end they should bar those initials and replace them with Doctor!!

 

[JohnnyOU]

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

Just don't let her know that they're letting blacks and hispanics into med school also...DO and MD...they're "third class citizens" to people like her.

Stupid b*tch prolly has a poodle too.

 

[coolkid]

In my opinion, DO's are better prepared than MD's...DO's actually know how to interact with patients while MD's just have knowledge but no physical knowledge...it helps a patient when a doctor knows how to treat them mentally and physically...however, DO and MD are both equal and there shouldnt be arguements against physicians with different initials...i hate to bring this up, but people make this like a racial war where DO's = black ppl vs MD = white ppl...THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO BE PROUD OF IF YOU'RE AN MD!!! DO's and MD's ride side-by-side

oh and btw my doc is a DO and before this month i didnt even notice because everyone calls him doc...so it doesnt matter DO or MD--in the end they should bar those initials and replace them with Doctor!!

Ok. I have been a "lurker" on this website for some time now and I have noticed an especially appalling amount of DO vs. MD bitterness which I have never really experienced in any other area outside of SDN. What really interests me is that most of the bashing really goes TOWARDS the MDs (DOs making more money, DOs being well rounded, etc.). Now, once we all go through our 4 years of med school (DO or MD), most of us will be competent physicians. But I'm going to be a little politically incorrect here and lay down some of my opinions (which havely largely been generated by reading over and over again the arguments bet. DOs and MDs).

1) it seems that most people who are DOs have an "inferiority complex" of sorts, almost stretching to justify their standing as med student, even though FOR THE MOST PART (not for all), their grades/MCATs were below the standards for most MD schools. I'm not saying that all DOs are MD-rejects, but to be honest, I would say no less than 75% would have gone to an MD school if given the chance (and not because of location, price, etc. but b/c of the opportunities that for whatever reason an MD school offers over a DO school). So DO pride is fine and all, but maybe there's a reason (besides lack of public image) that DOs are SOMETIMES looked at as "second class citizens" (i.e. the numbers, board scores, work ethics from at least the pre-med level).
2) DOs sometimes try to make themselves look better than MDs (advantages of OMM, more personable), which is absurd. First off, the argument that DO schools loook for "well rounded" candidates is only to make oneself feel better. I know someone who is an accomplished concert violinist, someone else a 4 year DI Football player, and another who spent 4 years in investment banking...and they all made it into an MD school. Second of all, to those few who try to make DO > MD, it just proves that if you did go to an MD school, you guys would be the ones bashing on the DOs. So let's really try to keep perspective here. I applaud the majority of the DOs who keep things real and aspire to be sympathetic and caring docs, but it's the bad few who really need to get over the fact that they did not have the goods to make it into an MD school and feel the need to make themselves look better.
3) Here's a very harsh truth: MDs numbers are stronger than DOs numbers. Clearly a top DO student would cut it at any other MD school, but the are far more DOs that would never become a practicing physician in America if there were no osteopathic schools. So it really irks me when MDs who for the most part sacrificed a whole lot more, worked a whole lot harder, or even (Gasp) are more naturally intelligent than some DOs are placed on that equivalent footing in the avg. person's eyes. This is clearly coming off as elitist, but since many people try to be PC abt this topic, someone needed to put a voice out.

I really did not want to incite a war bet. DOs and MDs here, but lately, it just seems that DOs are the ones trying to substantiate themselves over MDs, and it was really getting to me. The words I speak are not of ignorance but of the harsh reality. My best friend is even going to a DO school and I could not be happier for him. I just find it unsettling when people try to equate a pre-DO student to a pre-MD student. While a DO doc might equal and MD doc, I think it's pretty obvious that (based on the large percentage of numbers and schools accepted to) the avg PRE MD is a stronger, well-rounded medical school candidate than the avg PRE DO. Now, the next four years of your medical school is where most of you DOs can really compensate for a sub-par (for whatever reason) undergraduate career. I think the focus of these talks should not be about substantiating where you came from and how much money you'll be making but just "speaking softly and carrying a big stick." I'm sorry I had to throw this out there. I'm sure this post is laden with typos and there will be some pissed off responses, but just get over the facts and apply that anger towards simply bettering yourself as a residency candidate.

 

[docbill]

Ok. I have been a "lurker" on this website for some time now and I have noticed an especially appalling amount of DO vs. MD bitterness which I have never really experienced in any other area outside of SDN. What really interests me is that most of the bashing really goes TOWARDS.......... softly and carrying a big stick." I'm sorry I had to throw this out there. I'm this post is laden with typos and there will be some pissed off responses, but just get over the facts and apply that anger towards simply bettering yourself as a residency candidate.

Okay Coolio... even though I am never pleased with people who say DO's are better... as was just posted. I really have to say that you wasted your first ever post on this. Hmmmm not a good idea.

Now for those crazy nuts.. who think DOs are better prepared.. or in anyway.. better able to talk to patients... then they are crazy. Stop posting this wrong information.

 

[medhacker]

I have a strong hunch that you are a

 

[Raven Feather]

Ok. I have been a "lurker" on this website for some time now and I have noticed an especially appalling amount of DO vs. MD bitterness which I have never really experienced in any other area outside of SDN. What really interests me is that most of the bashing really goes TOWARDS the MDs (DOs making more money, DOs being well rounded, etc.). Now, once we all go through our 4 years of med school (DO or MD), most of us will be competent physicians. But I'm going to be a little politically incorrect here and lay down some of my opinions (which havely largely been generated by reading over and over again the arguments bet. DOs and MDs).

1) it seems that most people who are DOs have an "inferiority complex" of sorts, almost stretching to justify their standing as med student, even though FOR THE MOST PART (not for all), their grades/MCATs were below the standards for most MD schools. I'm not saying that all DOs are MD-rejects, but to be honest, I would say no less than 75% would have gone to an MD school if given the chance (and not because of location, price, etc. but b/c of the opportunities that for whatever reason an MD school offers over a DO school). So DO pride is fine and all, but maybe there's a reason (besides lack of public image) that DOs are SOMETIMES looked at as "second class citizens" (i.e. the numbers, board scores, work ethics from at least the pre-med level).
2) DOs sometimes try to make themselves look better than MDs (advantages of OMM, more personable), which is absurd. First off, the argument that DO schools loook for "well rounded" candidates is only to make oneself feel better. I know someone who is an accomplished concert violinist, someone else a 4 year DI Football player, and another who spent 4 years in investment banking...and they all made it into an MD school. Second of all, to those few who try to make DO > MD, it just proves that if you did go to an MD school, you guys would be the ones bashing on the DOs. So let's really try to keep perspective here. I applaud the majority of the DOs who keep things real and aspire to be sympathetic and caring docs, but it's the bad few who really need to get over the fact that they did not have the goods to make it into an MD school and feel the need to make themselves look better.
3) Here's a very harsh truth: MDs numbers are stronger than DOs numbers. Clearly a top DO student would cut it at any other MD school, but the are far more DOs that would never become a practicing physician in America if there were no osteopathic schools. So it really irks me when MDs who for the most part sacrificed a whole lot more, worked a whole lot harder, or even (Gasp) are more naturally intelligent than some DOs are placed on that equivalent footing in the avg. person's eyes. This is clearly coming off as elitist, but since many people try to be PC abt this topic, someone needed to put a voice out.

I really did not want to incite a war bet. DOs and MDs here, but lately, it just seems that DOs are the ones trying to substantiate themselves over MDs, and it was really getting to me. The words I speak are not of ignorance but of the harsh reality. My best friend is even going to a DO school and I could not be happier for him. I just find it unsettling when people try to equate a pre-DO student to a pre-MD student. While a DO doc might equal and MD doc, I think it's pretty obvious that (based on the large percentage of numbers and schools accepted to) the avg PRE MD is a stronger, well-rounded medical school candidate than the avg PRE DO. Now, the next four years of your medical school is where most of you DOs can really compensate for a sub-par (for whatever reason) undergraduate career. I think the focus of these talks should not be about substantiating where you came from and how much money you'll be making but just "speaking softly and carrying a big stick." I'm sorry I had to throw this out there. I'm sure this post is laden with typos and there will be some pissed off responses, but just get over the facts and apply that anger towards simply bettering yourself as a residency candidate.

How do MDs sacrifice more? There is no way of knowing who is more intelligent DO vs MD--maybe comparing IQ scores? Not everyone or the public in general (especially patients) consider the greatness of his or her physician by intelligence, but rather, competence and humanistic skills (in the case of patients). What does it mean to be "great" or "equal"? There is no one absolute truth.

When endeavoring on my path as a pre-med--I knew I would be checking out both options (MD and DO) I never referred to myself as pre-MD or pre-DO.

I never bash MDs or DOs they are both medical doctors.

And you are right, All the bitterness between the MD vs DO that I have experienced has been on this site kinda like posts such as yours.

 

[coolkid]

How do MDs sacrifice more? There is no way of knowing who is more intelligent DO vs MD--maybe comparing IQ scores? Not everyone or the public in general (especially patients) consider the greatness of his or her physician by intelligence, but rather, competence and humanistic skills (in the case of patients). What does it mean to be "great" or "equal"? There is no one absolute truth.

When endeavoring on my path as a pre-med--I knew I would be checking out both options (MD and DO) I never referred to myself as pre-MD or pre-DO.

I never bash MDs or DOs they are both medical doctors.

And you are right, All the bitterness between the MD vs DO that I have experienced has been on this site kinda like posts such as yours.

Ok Raven,
Most of your points are valid and well-received. Now again, not to start a war here, but outside of IQ scores, it's pretty well established that most MDs perform better in their undergraduate 4 year careers as well as MCATs than their DO counterparts. Now if you think thats not a valid enough representation of one's ability to accumulate and apply knowledge, that's fine. I completely do agree with you that a lot of people really do appreciate the "human" side of a doctor as well. This is something that I would look for in a physician myself. There is no real absolute truth to gauge the abilities of a physician outside of the tangible numbers and tools were are given with in this world. The X-factor that many good doctors possess (working under pressure, appealing to their patients, ability to interact and coordinate staff) is something that only can be discovered in the 3rd year of med school and later (DO or MD). I instantly felt sort of bad about posting my original response, but I felt it was a necessary evil to just "balance" things out. Yes it is inflammatory but I just wanted to level the playing field a bit too.

 

[medhacker]

Ok Raven,
Most of your points are valid and well-received. Now again, not to start a war here, but outside of IQ scores, it's pretty well established that most MDs perform better in their undergraduate 4 year careers as well as MCATs than their DO counterparts. Now if you think thats not a valid enough representation of one's ability to accumulate and apply knowledge, that's fine. I completely do agree with you that a lot of people really do appreciate the "human" side of a doctor as well. This is something that I would look for in a physician myself. There is no real absolute truth to gauge the abilities of a physician outside of the tangible numbers and tools were are given with in this world. The X-factor that many good doctors possess (working under pressure, appealing to their patients, ability to interact and coordinate staff) is something that only can be discovered in the 3rd year of med school and later (DO or MD). I instantly felt sort of bad about posting my original response, but I felt it was a necessary evil to just "balance" things out. Yes it is inflammatory but I just wanted to level the playing field a bit too.

MDs and DOs all have to pass licensing boards in order to practice, both groups do relatively similar, DOs do not have a greater record of malpractice - what difference then do undegrad GPA and MCAT really make to the final product?

 

[MedicineNutt]

actually i have a very high GPA and i havent taken the MCAT...i am definitely considering DO schools because of the extra education they offer and the approach of medicine!! i dont think MD schools are for me although i might end up going to one...so i cant put my hopes up too high on DO schools and i'll just take one step at a time for now!!

 

[NewNick]

Well said, Coolkid.

I agree with you that preDO < pre-MD. However, to say that MD > DO is wrong. First, let's talk about specialty a little bit. For people (MD and DO) who barely pass the boards (USMLE) will end up in easy specialties such as Family Practice (or IM or Ped ???), exclude the exception that some smart people want to be a FP anyway. If you agree with me on this then I'll move on. When a DO gets into some competitive specialties such as Rad, Derm, Ortho, Opth, ..., he/she must have very high USMLE board score and other requirements such as LOR, research, class rank, etc. So DO > MD if the MD gets very low board score (or even fail in the first time). To me, DO is a second chance for anyone who realizes that physician is his/her passion (for whatever reason). However, the route to become a great physician is long. It's not determined by MCAT score or GPA in undergrad. Med students still have board scores and clinical training. Otherwise, we don't see DOs in very difficult specialties. The MD that I shadow failed the USMLE 2 times before passing it. He even told me that his Chief of Residents was a DO. Therefore, he respects DO a lot and encourages me to go to DO right away this year instead of waiting for another year to apply again. My advice for any ignorance out there, "To determine a good horse, you must look at it in a long race".

So Coolkid, I agree with you that the philosophy of compassion is bull****. To say that pre-DO < pre-MD, I accept that, but to say that MD > DO, I challenge it. MD = DO in the end. We've seen so many suck MDs.

 

[NewNick]

I'd like to add more to my previous post. I will enter DO class of 2010. So don't tell me that I want to flame a war. I'm happy with my choice to be a DO, and I know that stigma will haunt me for a whole life. Should we yelll "Life is not fair" ? Actually, life is fair enough for us because I've seen people with MCAT > 30 and decent GPA got rejected from MD schools. We're lucky enough to be physicians someday. If we try to prove that DO > MD, I think it doesn't help the situation. To say that DO is unique with its philosophy of compassion is absurb. MD can do the same.

For pre-DO fellows, just accept the reality even though it's harsh. I know that there are many super smart students who chose to enter DO, but the number is small. I bet more than 70% of us can't get into MDs. We all convince ourselves that being physician makes us happy, then why should we care about the stigma ? I admit that I failed myself to beat the MCAT and I know the cause. So I accept that I'm an MD failure, not a physician failure. We still have a long time to fix our mistakes and prove our abilities. Convert the anger (from ignorant comments and prejudice) to the energy for a competent physician. It's too early to judge the others or ourselves. I'm pumped and excited when thinking about this Aug, like the fish seeing water.

For any pre-med out there, if you want prestige, go to MD. Work your a** off and prepare very well. If you mess up in one of the requirements and didn't get accepted to MD, think about whether being physician or name is important. If prestige is important, you should try Carribean schools. They'll give you an MD tag. You should go to DO because you simply want to be a doctor, and a damn good doctor. The route is still long to determine which is the better horse. Assume that you choose DO, work hard to know more than other kids in any med school and get a high board score. When you see an ignorant comment from common people, forgive them because they lack of information (perhaps stupid). If those comments are from MDs, show them your board score and knowledge or even a better specialty, I'm sure they'll be quite.

Imagine:

A: "Hi, I'm Dick A, M.D... family practice from John Hopkins. That school is great and very competitive. It took me 36 MCAT and 3.9 GPA undergrad. I can't imagine some schools accept students with 24 MCAT and 3.5 GPA."

B: "Wow, what was your Step I score ?"

A: "Well, I was not lucky. I thought I could handle it well. I got 190. How about you? By the way, what's your name ?"

B: "I'm Stick B, D.O.... from Western University. I'm opthalmologist. Step I 240."

A: (mumble) ... "Oh!!!"

*** Imagine (John Lenon) *** Imagine all the people ... sharing all the world.... Ahh ahhh... You may say I'm a dreamer... But I'm not the only one... I hope someday you'll join us... And the world will be as one ...

 

[Jack Daniel]

......2) DOs sometimes try to make themselves look better than MDs (advantages of OMM, more personable), which is absurd......

I see no problem with folks talking up osteopathic medicine on an osteopathic forum to potential osteopathic students.

 

[Raven Feather]

Ok Raven,
Most of your points are valid and well-received. Now again, not to start a war here, but outside of IQ scores, it's pretty well established that most MDs perform better in their undergraduate 4 year careers as well as MCATs than their DO counterparts. Now if you think thats not a valid enough representation of one's ability to accumulate and apply knowledge, that's fine. I completely do agree with you that a lot of people really do appreciate the "human" side of a doctor as well. This is something that I would look for in a physician myself. There is no real absolute truth to gauge the abilities of a physician outside of the tangible numbers and tools were are given with in this world. The X-factor that many good doctors possess (working under pressure, appealing to their patients, ability to interact and coordinate staff) is something that only can be discovered in the 3rd year of med school and later (DO or MD). I instantly felt sort of bad about posting my original response, but I felt it was a necessary evil to just "balance" things out. Yes it is inflammatory but I just wanted to level the playing field a bit too.

Well, I have a higher GPA than most MD matriculants but for various reason that I don't believe was related to my intelligence I didn't get a competitive score on the MCAT. Now had I retaken the MCAT, or attempted it multiple times with no improvement, maybe I would start questioning my ability. I saw no reason to retake the MCAT unless I didn't get into any schools--I never cared whether I ended up being a DO or MD. Having initials behind my name never was important to me. In real life and having plenty of healthcare experience, MD and DOs work side by side and don't care, neither do patients. That is my reality. So there is no anonymous forums on the web, invaded by a bunch of immature, experienceless, people that will ever make me second guess my decision to matriculate into a DO school. All this "my bike is better than yours" mentality is for the birds. In the long run, who cares? Everyone will pay taxes and die (depressing, huh? yet realistic)--that is the brutal truth. So what is important to me is what works I do and my meaningful relationships with my family and others. I will not let myself think that the value of my self-worth is or manifests itself in my GPA, MCAT scores, board scores, and lastly the type of degree I receive.

 

[nvshelat]

[/QUOTE]*** Imagine (John Lenon) *** Imagine all the people ... sharing all the world.... Ahh ahhh... You may say I'm a dreamer... But I'm not the only one... I hope someday you'll join us... And the world will be as one ...[/QUOTE]

You know, Bono said that one of his least favorite songs was Imagine by Lenon. He said something the long the lines of it makes people too idealistic and unmotivated - they're thinking, not acting.
Still, i think this is ironic given some of Bono's lyrics - take Sunday Bloody Sunday for instance; "how long.. must we sing this song" and other lyrics from U2's early stages are just as, if not moreso, idealistic.

I don't know what this has to do with this thread. I'll admit it, I'm just trying to increase my post count (and procrastinate at work). jesus, its taking me forever to get up to 500! How long will it take? How long must I sing this song? Haha..

Oh wait, I can tie it back. As osteopathic physicians, we must be activists, not idealists. We must continue to strive for the most competitive residencies until "the world will live as one."
Or something...

 

[Sam212]

Tell her to go shove it. Ask her to come back to you after she has any acceptances. Pre-meds seriously piss me off.

 

[tara14]

alright,

i was at a gathering with my band members, and i met this new girl from a pretigious private school. she was taking the mcat next year, a junior, blah x3. anyway i told her i was applying DO and she looked shocked. I asked her why, and she said she would never apply DO--as a DO you would be considered a "second class citizen".

i have never heard this before. i searched the threads, i see the whole debate, but please, someone who is a DO or getting there tell me if this is true or not.

(scared)

m.c.

Well I went to a highly ranked, prestigious private school and I only applied to DO schools and am going to be a DO. In fact my school actually recommends osteopathic schools as part of its pre-med advising. I didn't and still don't care about the intials after my name. I will admit most of my pre-med classmates are all in MD schools but when I told them I was going to be a DO they all supported me and not a single one of them bad-mouthed DO's nor did they try to convince me to not be a DO. So this girl is naive - and obviously ignorant about DO's.

 

[NewNick]

Oh wait, I can tie it back. As osteopathic physicians, we must be activists, not idealists. We must continue to strive for the most competitive residencies until "the world will live as one."
Or something...

Not neccessary. You only do it if you love it. My point was MD is not always better (smarter, work harder, or whatever) than DO. Even with the MD degree, the path to get in the most competitive residencies is not easy. It's just easier for a tie breaker between MD and DO. Why ? Is it fair ?

Let me give you a simple physic problem. X drives constantly 30 km/h for 2 hrs. Y started with 25 km/h (at the same point and time with X, also for 2 hrs). What speed Y must drive from now to catch up with X in 3 hrs ?

Let's turn back. It's all about reaching the end point.

 

[PlasticMan]

You know, Bono said that one of his least favorite songs was Imagine by Lenon. He said something the long the lines of it makes people too idealistic and unmotivated - they're thinking, not acting.
Still, i think this is ironic given some of Bono's lyrics - take Sunday Bloody Sunday for instance; "how long.. must we sing this song" and other lyrics from U2's early stages are just as, if not moreso, idealistic.

I don't know what this has to do with this thread. I'll admit it, I'm just trying to increase my post count (and procrastinate at work). jesus, its taking me forever to get up to 500! How long will it take? How long must I sing this song? Haha..

Oh wait, I can tie it back. As osteopathic physicians, we must be activists, not idealists. We must continue to strive for the most competitive residencies until "the world will live as one."
Or something...

Nice to see another U2 fan 😎 Go to any vertigo shows?

 

[lilymoo]

Not neccessary. You only do it if you love it. My point was MD is not always better (smarter, work harder, or whatever) than DO. Even with the MD degree, the path to get in the most competitive residencies is not easy. It's just easier for a tie breaker between MD and DO. Why ? Is it fair ?

Let me give you a simple physic problem. X drives constantly 30 km/h for 2 hrs. Y started with 25 km/h (at the same point and time with X, also for 2 hrs). What speed Y must drive from now to catch up with X in 3 hrs ?

Let's turn back. It's all about reaching the end point.

WELL SAID!!!!!

 

[Sundarban1]

This thread is pointless. If everyone posted every nonsensical comment good or bad someone said about a DO, this forum would be full of crap left and right.

 

[nvshelat]

Nice to see another U2 fan 😎 Go to any vertigo shows?

Did I?! Man I was at their Vertigo show in Philly in October, the one where Bruce Springstein came out at the end and the place went absolutely nuts. 😎 How many times do you get the Edge and Bruce on the same stage together?! I still have some of the songs recorded on my cell phone (voice memo), but it's hard to make out the lyrics. I read a review of the show afterwards and up to that point, it was supposedly their "best show." Can't wait for their next album, although I read somewhere that Bono was thinking about experimenting with hip-hop. Uh, yeaaahhhh...

 

[BMW19]

Your ignorance is only trumped by your unwarranted arrogance. What school do you go to? Have been accepted to? Have you even taken the MCAT? You even admitted that most of your opinions came from this forum!! Great resource on this topic! Dude, until you put up some stats or acceptances you have no valid comment on this issue. Nothing worse than an arrogant Pre med. Until you have walked in our shoes, go post in "desparate to be an MD" forum.

B-

Ok. I have been a "lurker" on this website for some time now and I have noticed an especially appalling amount of DO vs. MD bitterness which I have never really experienced in any other area outside of SDN. What really interests me is that most of the bashing really goes TOWARDS the MDs (DOs making more money, DOs being well rounded, etc.). Now, once we all go through our 4 years of med school (DO or MD), most of us will be competent physicians. But I'm going to be a little politically incorrect here and lay down some of my opinions (which havely largely been generated by reading over and over again the arguments bet. DOs and MDs).

1) it seems that most people who are DOs have an "inferiority complex" of sorts, almost stretching to justify their standing as med student, even though FOR THE MOST PART (not for all), their grades/MCATs were below the standards for most MD schools. I'm not saying that all DOs are MD-rejects, but to be honest, I would say no less than 75% would have gone to an MD school if given the chance (and not because of location, price, etc. but b/c of the opportunities that for whatever reason an MD school offers over a DO school). So DO pride is fine and all, but maybe there's a reason (besides lack of public image) that DOs are SOMETIMES looked at as "second class citizens" (i.e. the numbers, board scores, work ethics from at least the pre-med level).
2) DOs sometimes try to make themselves look better than MDs (advantages of OMM, more personable), which is absurd. First off, the argument that DO schools loook for "well rounded" candidates is only to make oneself feel better. I know someone who is an accomplished concert violinist, someone else a 4 year DI Football player, and another who spent 4 years in investment banking...and they all made it into an MD school. Second of all, to those few who try to make DO > MD, it just proves that if you did go to an MD school, you guys would be the ones bashing on the DOs. So let's really try to keep perspective here. I applaud the majority of the DOs who keep things real and aspire to be sympathetic and caring docs, but it's the bad few who really need to get over the fact that they did not have the goods to make it into an MD school and feel the need to make themselves look better.
3) Here's a very harsh truth: MDs numbers are stronger than DOs numbers. Clearly a top DO student would cut it at any other MD school, but the are far more DOs that would never become a practicing physician in America if there were no osteopathic schools. So it really irks me when MDs who for the most part sacrificed a whole lot more, worked a whole lot harder, or even (Gasp) are more naturally intelligent than some DOs are placed on that equivalent footing in the avg. person's eyes. This is clearly coming off as elitist, but since many people try to be PC abt this topic, someone needed to put a voice out.

I really did not want to incite a war bet. DOs and MDs here, but lately, it just seems that DOs are the ones trying to substantiate themselves over MDs, and it was really getting to me. The words I speak are not of ignorance but of the harsh reality. My best friend is even going to a DO school and I could not be happier for him. I just find it unsettling when people try to equate a pre-DO student to a pre-MD student. While a DO doc might equal and MD doc, I think it's pretty obvious that (based on the large percentage of numbers and schools accepted to) the avg PRE MD is a stronger, well-rounded medical school candidate than the avg PRE DO. Now, the next four years of your medical school is where most of you DOs can really compensate for a sub-par (for whatever reason) undergraduate career. I think the focus of these talks should not be about substantiating where you came from and how much money you'll be making but just "speaking softly and carrying a big stick." I'm sorry I had to throw this out there. I'm sure this post is laden with typos and there will be some pissed off responses, but just get over the facts and apply that anger towards simply bettering yourself as a residency candidate.

 

[suckermc]

thanks for the responses.

 

[priam18]

*** Imagine (John Lenon) *** Imagine all the people ... sharing all the world.... Ahh ahhh... You may say I'm a dreamer... But I'm not the only one... I hope someday you'll join us... And the world will be as one ...

You know, for the past 3 days I've been racking my brain non-stop to try to remember this song.

 

[candyland]

Well, I have a higher GPA than most MD matriculants but for various reason that I don't believe was related to my intelligence I didn't get a competitive score on the MCAT. Now had I retaken the MCAT, or attempted it multiple times with no improvement, maybe I would start questioning my ability. I saw no reason to retake the MCAT unless I didn't get into any schools--I never cared whether I ended up being a DO or MD. Having initials behind my name never was important to me. In real life and having plenty of healthcare experience, MD and DOs work side by side and don't care, neither do patients. That is my reality. So there is no anonymous forums on the web, invaded by a bunch of immature, experienceless, people that will ever make me second guess my decision to matriculate into a DO school. All this "my bike is better than yours" mentality is for the birds. In the long run, who cares? Everyone will pay taxes and die (depressing, huh? yet realistic)--that is the brutal truth. So what is important to me is what works I do and my meaningful relationships with my family and others. I will not let myself think that the value of my self-worth is or manifests itself in my GPA, MCAT scores, board scores, and lastly the type of degree I receive.

yeah my GPA was above the competitive GPA of MD schools (I have a 3.78) and I attend a high ranking university, yet I did not do well on my MCATs and hence have not received any interviews to MD schools (I'm guessing my MCATs is the reason since I can't find anything else wrong w/ my application)...I have already gotten multiple DO interviews and was accepted at 2 so far...do you really believe that MD students worked harder than me in undergrad just b/c they got into an MD school due to their higher MCAT scores? I could not disagree more, after all that GPA did not just come out of nowhere...so you cannot make the argument that MDs are better or more intelligent than DOs nor the other way around...the fact is each individual case is different and each one of us will prove ourselves as a worthy DOCTOR in the future (or not)...

finally, I have a way for you people to stop this ridiculous argument...go do a survey of people who are in the waiting room of a clinic that has both MD and DO physicians and ask them if their doctor (the one they are scheduled to see) is an MD or a DO...I bet most of them would stare at you in confusion and state that they are seeing a DOCTOR!

this is just my way to make peace here 😉

 

[ericdopt]

A few things:
1) STOP with the "Imagine" lyrics...damn hippee freak! (there, now I'll get flamed, bring it on! 🙂 )

2) Re: U2. Anybody remember the "War" tour out there? Probably not, I'm an old fogey.

3) My God people, stop it with the MD vs. DO crap! As I've mentioned MANY times on these threads, not ONE patient has ever asked me if I was a DO vs. MD. In response to the troll's post: Sure, MD's do better on the MCAT. Sure, MD's probably do have a better overall GPA. Sure, MD's have better blah, blah, blah. Who gives a rip, dude/ette? PRE-meds and their opinions in these matters means NOTHING. I knew a person who's MOTHER forbade (a word?) her from becoming a DO since they "aren't REAL doctors" . Whatever! You can't argue with that logic. I went DO BECAUSE of my background (PT). You want to tell me I "didn't work hard in undergrad"? Seriously troll, in the 1980's (ooh, that pains me to say), PT schools were EXTREMELY difficult to get into. And, I might add, easier to fail out of, and yes I've got examples of this. A dean from a very prestigious medical school in Chicago (where I did graduate work, BTW) told me that he doesn't accept older students, and especially those already in the medical field! What that means is that he couldn't MOLD me into his little automaton.

4) MC, please ignore anecdotal information. And, please DO NOT engage in the MD vs. DO crap.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I can't stand the way people are saying PRE-DO< PRE-MD. I am sorry but I worked hard from my 3.82 GPA and decent MCAT score. Hence, I take offense to such comments. I have interviewed at both MD and DO schools, so I don't classify myself as a PRE-DO or MD.

 

[suds945]

All you current or future DOs who are crying or whining about how you're just as good as an MD or random pre-meds are giving you crap or whatever: STOP IT. NOW. I'm going to simplify this issue enough so that anyone will be able to understand it, whether they're mentally capable of being DOs, MDs, or the bricks on the side of my apartment building.

If you want to be a DO, you have no problem. You're in med school, or you have admission to one that you're happy with. Life is good. If you want to be an MD, however, it's simple...switch gears and go to an allopathic school. Improve your grades if you have to, change majors if you have to, enter a post-bac program if you have to, and retake the MCAT if you have to...if you really want, the Caribbean is waiting. Just stop listening to people whose opinions aren't at all relevant to you. There's no need for vitriol or inferiority if you just figure out what you want to do and then do it.

Now, let's say you really wanted to go to an MD school, but you couldn't get in and instead got into a DO program. I'd tell you to work on yourself and your application and try again, but let's say that you can't for whatever reason (you can't wait another year because you're too old, or it's too much work for you, or you're lazy, or whatever). Here's what you do:

1. Go to the DO program, and do well in your classes.
2. Take the COMLEX I and USMLE I, and beat the crap out of both.
3. Get residency of choice
4. Live happily ever after (since you're doing what you wanted to do all along)

The problem here is not the people who are saying that pre-MD > pre-DO...it's the people who are taking offense and thus legitimizing the comments in the first place. Toughen up your skin, go to a medical school, and show just how awesome you are. Because if you keep putting so much stock in what everyone else thinks, you'll never be able to appreciate your own abilities...if you can't do that, you'll never be happy. And if being a doctor does not contribute positively to your happiness, I demand that you get the hell out of my future profession immediately.

--S

 

[DO Sigma Nu guy]

All you current or future DOs who are crying or whining about how you're just as good as an MD or random pre-meds are giving you crap or whatever: STOP IT. NOW. I'm going to simplify this issue enough so that anyone will be able to understand it, whether they're mentally capable of being DOs, MDs, or the bricks on the side of my apartment building.

If you want to be a DO, you have no problem. You're in med school, or you have admission to one that you're happy with. Life is good. If you want to be an MD, however, it's simple...switch gears and go to an allopathic school. Improve your grades if you have to, change majors if you have to, enter a post-bac program if you have to, and retake the MCAT if you have to...if you really want, the Caribbean is waiting. Just stop listening to people whose opinions aren't at all relevant to you. There's no need for vitriol or inferiority if you just figure out what you want to do and then do it.

Now, let's say you really wanted to go to an MD school, but you couldn't get in and instead got into a DO program. I'd tell you to work on yourself and your application and try again, but let's say that you can't for whatever reason (you can't wait another year because you're too old, or it's too much work for you, or you're lazy, or whatever). Here's what you do:

1. Go to the DO program, and do well in your classes.
2. Take the COMLEX I and USMLE I, and beat the crap out of both.
3. Get residency of choice
4. Live happily ever after (since you're doing what you wanted to do all along)

The problem here is not the people who are saying that pre-MD > pre-DO...it's the people who are taking offense and thus legitimizing the comments in the first place. Toughen up your skin, go to a medical school, and show just how awesome you are. Because if you keep putting so much stock in what everyone else thinks, you'll never be able to appreciate your own abilities...if you can't do that, you'll never be happy. And if being a doctor does not contribute positively to your happiness, I demand that you get the hell out of my future profession immediately.

--S

Great Post.

Thread Closed. 👍

 

[medhacker]

Great Post.

Thread Closed. 👍

Homie! you got authority ese!!

I almost didn't post this message out of pure respect..

Thread Closed.

Snap! LOL

 

[DO Sigma Nu guy]

Homie! you got authority ese!!

I almost didn't post this message out of pure respect..


Snap! LOL

Gracias bro.

Chiste Chiste

 

[USArmyDoc]

All you current or future DOs who are crying or whining about how you're just as good as an MD or random pre-meds are giving you crap or whatever: STOP IT. NOW. I'm going to simplify this issue enough so that anyone will be able to understand it, whether they're mentally capable of being DOs, MDs, or the bricks on the side of my apartment building.

If you want to be a DO, you have no problem. You're in med school, or you have admission to one that you're happy with. Life is good. If you want to be an MD, however, it's simple...switch gears and go to an allopathic school. Improve your grades if you have to, change majors if you have to, enter a post-bac program if you have to, and retake the MCAT if you have to...if you really want, the Caribbean is waiting. Just stop listening to people whose opinions aren't at all relevant to you. There's no need for vitriol or inferiority if you just figure out what you want to do and then do it.

Now, let's say you really wanted to go to an MD school, but you couldn't get in and instead got into a DO program. I'd tell you to work on yourself and your application and try again, but let's say that you can't for whatever reason (you can't wait another year because you're too old, or it's too much work for you, or you're lazy, or whatever). Here's what you do:

1. Go to the DO program, and do well in your classes.
2. Take the COMLEX I and USMLE I, and beat the crap out of both.
3. Get residency of choice
4. Live happily ever after (since you're doing what you wanted to do all along)

The problem here is not the people who are saying that pre-MD > pre-DO...it's the people who are taking offense and thus legitimizing the comments in the first place. Toughen up your skin, go to a medical school, and show just how awesome you are. Because if you keep putting so much stock in what everyone else thinks, you'll never be able to appreciate your own abilities...if you can't do that, you'll never be happy. And if being a doctor does not contribute positively to your happiness, I demand that you get the hell out of my future profession immediately.

--S

True....good post.

 

[PlasticMan]

A few things:
1) STOP with the "Imagine" lyrics...damn hippee freak! (there, now I'll get flamed, bring it on! 🙂 )

2) Re: U2. Anybody remember the "War" tour out there? Probably not, I'm an old fogey.

3) My God people, stop it with the MD vs. DO crap! As I've mentioned MANY times on these threads, not ONE patient has ever asked me if I was a DO vs. MD. In response to the troll's post: Sure, MD's do better on the MCAT. Sure, MD's probably do have a better overall GPA. Sure, MD's have better blah, blah, blah. Who gives a rip, dude/ette? PRE-meds and their opinions in these matters means NOTHING. I knew a person who's MOTHER forbade (a word?) her from becoming a DO since they "aren't REAL doctors" . Whatever! You can't argue with that logic. I went DO BECAUSE of my background (PT). You want to tell me I "didn't work hard in undergrad"? Seriously troll, in the 1980's (ooh, that pains me to say), PT schools were EXTREMELY difficult to get into. And, I might add, easier to fail out of, and yes I've got examples of this. A dean from a very prestigious medical school in Chicago (where I did graduate work, BTW) told me that he doesn't accept older students, and especially those already in the medical field! What that means is that he couldn't MOLD me into his little automaton.

4) MC, please ignore anecdotal information. And, please DO NOT engage in the MD vs. DO crap.

Ah, yes. The white flag 😉 I was alive at the time, but not old enough to have cared ; however, I have seen the "Live from Red Rocks" video several times. 😎

 

[PlasticMan]

Did I?! Man I was at their Vertigo show in Philly in October, the one where Bruce Springstein came out at the end and the place went absolutely nuts. 😎 How many times do you get the Edge and Bruce on the same stage together?! I still have some of the songs recorded on my cell phone (voice memo), but it's hard to make out the lyrics. I read a review of the show afterwards and up to that point, it was supposedly their "best show." Can't wait for their next album, although I read somewhere that Bono was thinking about experimenting with hip-hop. Uh, yeaaahhhh...

nvshelat, I tried to PM you, but your inbox is full!

 

[Zerosixjt]

I have a 3.9 and an MCAT score that is probably a lot higher than what hers is going to be.....And i'm going to a DO school. I like the people, I like the way they approach medicine, and i think its going to help me become a better doctor. My father is an MD, and him and every doctor he has talked to says the same thing. They all see each other as physicians, he worked with some for a long time not even knowing if they were MDs or DOs.

I'm in the same boat. I could be in a MD program (prestigious one too) but I liked how confortable I was at the DO school that I applied to. I'm waiting for an acceptance letter right now, and I will be happy to send in my deposit to become a DO!!

 

[Lordrobot]

I wear two hats physician lawyer. There are many variables as to how you will be treated as a DO. My recommendation first and foremost is you only practice in states with single boards of medicine NOT a state with both an MD and DO Board. Florida is perhaps the best worst example so I will use it. In Florida, a DO must attend the State Required CMEs in person. An MD may take them online. There is no difference in content whatsoever. So there is no special Osteopathic content. But the MD cost is $69 online and the Osteopathic cost is roughly $400 plus hotel and travel and time away from the practice. In simple direct terms, the DO is treated much the same way as Black persons have been treated historically with poll taxes and other impediments to equality. The DO is very much a second-class citizen in the eyes of the state of Florida.

Secondly, since the CME credit for DO and MD are not the same. The State Requirements are therefore different and unequal. This is discrimination on its face in Florida which is a RIGHT TO WORK STATE. This situation cannot occur in a single board state.

Malpractice insurance. Some MD Carriers will not carry DO medmal. In fact, it was so bad twenty years ago the DOs had to start their own medical malpractice insurance company.

To a great extent DO physicians are isolated in separate but unequal facilities. In fact in Florida, there still remain the remnants of Osteopathic Hospital. For example, there is a hospital Chain called Florida Hospital. DOs are relegated to a lesser facility called Florida Hospital East. While they do the same procedures and are competent physicians, they are treated as lesser by pure prejudice. The DO specialists, in particular, have marginal practices. Many very competent DO general surgeons leave those practices at the height of their skill levels because they just don't want to fight the second class citizen status any longer.

The worst part for the DO is that the Foreign Medical Graduate who went to school in God knows where comes to the US and immediately seems to feel a superiority to the American Trained DO. This is very evident in South Florida where English is hardly the primary language spoken. It is here that Cuban trained doctors flood Miami.

So it is everything. From hospital privileges to cmes, to insurance. The DO is treated lesser. Then even patients don't know what a DO is. In spite of the essentially worthless attempts to differentiate DOs the public thinks they are Chiropractors. Australia hasn't helped by designating Osteopaths as non-physicians.

If you want to practice overseas as a DO, you are more or less dead in the water. The British won't accept the DO. Once again the second class citizenship extends to other foreign countries as well. As one FMG attending said to a troop of DO residents, "There is no shade under the MD umbrella for the DO."

DO schools and the awful AOA and other DO associations focus on primary care has caused great harm to the DO. Primary care is now referral medicine. It is the lowest paid and Osteopaths are lower paid by far statistically than their MD counterparts. The notion, the utterly stupid notion of the AOA pushing Obamacare with the idea that primary care would be on top was flatly WRONG! The bottom never goes on top except for the Bible where we are told the meek shall inherit the earth. That will NEVER happen in medicine. In medicine, the meek will get meeker. Look at the encroachment from PAs to Nurse Practitioners the primary care doctor turf is eroding.

In every way, it is probably better to go to a Foreign medical school and come back to the USA like an FMG than a DO.

Equality means you are treated equally. That may never happen to a Black person based on physical identifiers such as dark skin. The same kinds of prejudices apply to the DO. A dual board in a State is essentially an admission that the DO is not equal to the MD. I believe and I am not certain about this but there are 13 states that have dual boards. I would be very leery about practicing in such states. The DO that I worked with in Florida regretted licensing in Florida. Last year the medical malpractice caps were declared unconstitutional in the state so it is a very dangerous litigious state because the population is heavily migrant and predators abound. In some ways, Florida is cruddy, hot as hell, bug infested state.

My advice for what it is worth is joining the military if you want equality, though military doctors are not by any stretch exceptional. Our biggest medmal cases are colossal out of military hospitals and clinics. Go to states where the medical need is high. Doctors are treated well there. Avoid California, and Florida and New York. Avoid states with lots of regulation that Tax doctor's licenses and have layers of mandatory CMEs. Those states are leviathan nut job, bureaucrats.

Personally, I would avoid the field of medicine entirely and go to vet school and you will have nice patients and no government. Doctors in the future will make 75 to 100 k in primary care. That is not enough for the overhang of medical malpractice. Even though doctors win most of their cases, they are never the same after such an attack. Punitive states will pile drive them. It is truly awful.

Think about it. Why doesn't insurance just pay for accidents? Why do they have to treat the doctor like a murderous criminal? As doctors, you are not supposed to be tough as nails. You are supposed to be gentle decent people. This profession is dying.

Back in the 1960's, a primary care doctor would go to the hospital in the Am see patients, scrub for surgery and assist or deliver some babies, then go to their office and see patients. They would then go back to the hospital do rounds. They may get calls at night. Doctors loved this life and their skill levels were high. It's gone. 66% of all private doctor's practices have closed since Obamacare. A doctor is an employee towing the line for production numbers. It is now nothing but referrals. No scrubbing for surgery, no delivery of babies.

if you are in medicine then make the best of it. If you are deciding, don't give in to the impulse of the prestige of being called Doctor. It doesn't carry the weight it once did and it sure doesn't carry the money. Best wished to all of you. You are heading into a tough competitive life that you may actually hate. 70% of doctors I know say they deeply regret their decision to go into medicine. It is only going to get more infested with Government control.

 

[Osminog]

In simple direct terms, the DO is treated much the same way as Black persons have been treated historically with poll taxes and other impediments to equality.

The bottom never goes on top except for the Bible where we are told the meek shall inherit the earth. That will NEVER happen in medicine. In medicine, the meek will get meeker.

In every way, it is probably better to go to a Foreign medical school and come back to the USA like an FMG than a DO.

Equality means you are treated equally. That may never happen to a Black person based on physical identifiers such as dark skin. The same kinds of prejudices apply to the DO.

Personally, I would avoid the field of medicine entirely and go to vet school and you will have nice patients and no government. Doctors in the future will make 75 to 100 k in primary care.

This profession is dying.

There are elements of truth in much of what you're saying, but your post is loaded with hyperbole and careless generalizations (see excerpts above).

Why are you posting on a thread from 2006, by the way?

 

[workaholic181]

Who cares dude. Let people like that be.

 

[Robin-jay]

I met a girl who graduated with a food science degree in Corneil now attending a state school to do pre-req. courses for medical school.

She thought she was the bomb until 19 year old students in organic chemistry tore her apart.

The arrogance some people have because they graduated a "private" or "Ivy League" school is atrocious.

Plus, I have a hunch some of those grades are actually inflated.