second fellowship?

[leu345]

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I am a PGY-4 in one of the top programs, will continue to do a hemepath fellowship here.
I never really thought about job market before , figured people from our program never had problems finding a job, many of them stayed in big academic places, which are ideal to me. However, though still a few years away, I start to have doubts about finding a resonably good job. As I was told that many positions require 3-5 years of experience, and the job market of Hemepath is pretty much saturated.

Here is question I am debating: should I do a second fellowship? I am always interested in molecular diagnostics, but I was told by several people that molecular fellowship is a waste of time, especially if you have already have a Ph.D. in molecular biology.

I understand that GIpath is considered to have a good job market, which is also a field I am very interested. Some attendings sign-out both hemepath and GI, and they are rare. My fear is that if I do a hemepath and a GI path fellowship, I might likely end up doing only one of them, making a year wasted.

Thanks for inputs.

 

[scienceguy19]

Who was telling you that the job market was saturated? Did you speak to fellows who couldn't get jobs? I sure hope you end up getting a job since you have a MD/PhD. With so many years of schooling, you deserve it.

 

[KCShaw]

Except for decent sized academic centers and "large" practices (and even many of them), my impression is that the average anatomic pathologist does a lot of general surgical pathology in addition to being the/one of the "go-to" person(s) for whatever they have fellowship training or particular experience in. So, on average, I doubt most "extra" fellowships are entirely a waste of time per se. Really, if one is worried about wasting a year, think hard about doing combined AP/CP while only being interested in surg path (admittedly hard to do as most programs want to keep you around 4 years instead of only 3).

However, I'm also of a mind that people who complain that everyone is only recruiting pathologists with "3-5"+ years of experience need to get on with adding up years of experience rather than tossing on fellowships and hoping that will somehow be just as good, while expecting that their first job will be their best and last. I would suggest against doing another fellowship -solely- because you -hope- it will make you more competitive in the job market; now, if it's really something that interests you and you want to pursue independent of that, then that's another matter.

What you're seeing on the recruiting boards today may not be what you see tomorrow or next year -- nor may a few job postings really be indicative of the market as a whole or in your region of interest.

 

[caffeinegirl]

To the OP

I recommend that you start looking for jobs in your first month of fellowship. I don't think that having another fellowship will help your search. If you like hemepath, and want to do that as your primary focus, then I recommend that you stick with hemepath. Also, talk to your hemepath attendings and other attendings in your department. See if you can contact alumni as well. If you're planning on staying in academics and are in a top program, then your faculty and alumni network will definitely help you in getting a job.

If you're interested in molecular diagnostics and have a PhD in molecular biology, then a molecular fellowship may be redundant (in that it will cover a lot of similar techniques). However, if your goal is to stay in acadmics and run the molecular diagnostics laboratory, then the fellowship will help get you "street cred." If you're interested in molecular diagnostics just in the realm of hemepath, then a molecular fellowship I don't think will help, IMHO. It all depends on your career plans...do you want to do molecular research (then don't do the fellowship)? Do you want to do clinical molecular diagnostics (then do the fellowship to be boarded as med director of molecular clinical lab)? The answers will help define your path.

 

[2121115]

To the OP, I was in a similar situation as a grad of a "top" (whatever that means) program and a hemepath fellowship. I searched for a job in private practice with only AP/CP and the one heme fellowship. I got a good job in a great location and I am very happy with my situation; however, it could have easily never happened and I feel like to some degree it was a "right place, right time" phenomenon. I will say that success in the job market has way more to do with intanglible factors (who you know, are you well liked, people skills, professionalism, etc) than tangible ones (where you trained, diagnostic skills, fellowship specialty training, even references). In the real world, the best jobs don't go to the smartest, but to the well connected. Cold hard truth. Good luck. Many do multiple fellowships out of fear that one is not enough, and I don't blame them given the circumstances. Just remember that a second fellowship in molecular will put you 2 years (at least, depending on how your residency is set up) from seeing a GI biopsy or a prostate or a skin or a cytology, and that may also work against you for general practice jobs.

 

[yaah]

Don't do second fellowships just because you think it will help you get a (better) job. It can backfire - we have interviewed people with multiple fellowships and some in my group think it's odd and worry that the person is either diluted or can't commit to something.

 

[leu345]

Thanks for the quality input. Really appreciate it.🙂

My feeling is that the consenus here is that doing another fellowship won't neccessarily make one a more competitive job candidate. I am just wondering why nowadays most path residents are doing 2 fellowships?

 

[coroner]

...we have interviewed people with multiple fellowships and some in my group think it's odd and worry that the person is either diluted or can't commit to something.

I agree that this can be a red flag for some places hiring, mainly depending on two factors: 1) Multiple fellowships that are >2. I think most places are fully aware that it is not that uncommon nowadays for competent, graduates to have two fellowships. However, that seems to be the unofficial cutoff as three would certainly raise eyebrows 2) If those two fellowships complement each other i.e. someone with derm + BB/TM, or forensics + cyto could appear indecisive; however surg path + GI, or molecular + heme, are certainly acceptable.

I am just wondering why nowadays most path residents are doing 2 fellowships?

I can't remember the source (either some ASCP survey, or something else), but roughly 75-80% of residents pursue 1 fellowship and around 40-50% pursue 2 fellowships. So, it's close to half, but not quite the majority. Why that is includes various factors depending on each person's situation. For example, some more competetive fellowships at certain institutions "highly recommend" a surg path year before entering an AP subspecialty or they offer a package deal i.e. we give you X fellowship if you commit to doing two years of it or a year of research, some people are geographically limited to certain areas and if there's no positions available in the vicinity as a praticing pathologist, they take on another fellowship to stay in the area, some people (depsite what was suggested earlier) do it to beef there CV in hopes of becoming a more marketable job candidate, others had to wait out a year to get the fellowship they really wanted so in the meantime filled it in with another fellowship, and of course, some may be genuinely interested in more than one area.

 

[leu345]

[/QUOTE]and of course, some may be genuinely interested in more than one area.[/QUOTE]

How about a combination of factors, bad job market + genuinely interests in more than one field?

I did a hemepath rotation early in my residency, it attracts me immediately, it is a field that we understand the biology including the molecular aspects of the diseases the most. I never regret the decision to do a hemepath fellowship. I did not had a GIpath rotation until my 3rd year, then I realized that this is also a facinating field, nothing to do with the fact that it is more marketable or "lucrative".

It is like you are engaged then you meet another person, are you allowed to marry two person in the field of patholoy?

 

[Arctic Char]

Had lunch with Jared Schwartz last week . . . he said "65% of graduates are doing 2 fellowships". i almost threw up in my mouth

 

[Sulfinator]

Yeah . . . . I can pretty much guarantee that I will not be doing 2 fellowships.

 

[Tissue issue]

Current residents and fellows- what was your impression of our job market when you applied for Pathology residencies? I see a rather long thread under Pathology 2011/12- who's in. Do these people know the situation and are going for it anyway (admirable) or do they not fully understand what is happening (troubling)?

 

[path24]

"65% doing two fellowships" more proof of a very poor job market. You secure the second fellowship if you can't get a job after one. Unfortunately people aren't getting jobs so they do the second fellowship (I have seen it multiple times).

I can see one fellowship and multiple in very few circumstances (less than 5-10%). Residency doesn't equal a job (just 3% according to an archives article). One fellowship doesn't seem to either now a days with 65% doing two. Thats six years where you can easily go into something else and have no problems finding work, living where you want to, and being in control of your career.

Searching for employment sucks and it seems like you are literally competing against everyone in the country. No matter where you apply they see apps from all over the US.

Seriously stay away from this field people. Go into something else and buy a microscope for your office if you want to have some fun and show your patients.