Second look

[Gordon Sims]

How important is it to schedule a "second look" at a program to convey your interest? Is it necessary to get ranked or will a follow up e-mail later in the season be sufficient?

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[dr1day]

Also on the topic of second looks, should I schedule it to be more of a second meeting with the PD or a "follow a resident" type thing?

 

[atsai3]

Also on the topic of second looks, should I schedule it to be more of a second meeting with the PD or a "follow a resident" type thing?

1. The program director is busy.
2. A second meeting with the program director is unlikely to provide you with additional data that would help you make your decision, so why would you bother?
3. Most likely if you contact the program director to set up a second look, s/he will pawn you off to one of the residents anyway.

-AT.

 

[jenesaispas0005]

I honestly don't understand what the point of a 'second look' would be. If you want to go to get more information about the program it would be more useful to just ask one of the residents or PD's via email or phone call. If they think it would be a good use of your time to come in and look around again, they'd probably suggest it at that point. If you just want to kiss up and look like you're interested, it's probably a big waste of time.

 

[Deferoxamine]

I woke up this morning after my last "major" interview this week, and heard the following song in my head:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FtzaDxHgLk[/YOUTUBE]

Getting nervous as I have at least a half dozen programs that have surely broken into my top half, and the difference between most of them is minimal. I feel like I need to narrow down soon and contact the "top" players for Second Looks, if necessary. Not a single program won me over 100% across the board, but many were close.

I worry that by not contacting my #3, 4, 5, 6... that I could lose them.

When would you guys recommend letting my ultimate #1 know by? And is the Program Coordinator generally the person to get in touch with for a Second Look, or should I contact one of the residents I've been in touch with from those places?

 

[JackADeli]

How important is it to schedule a "second look" at a program to convey your interest? Is it necessary to get ranked or will a follow up e-mail later in the season be sufficient?

...The program director is busy...

I have learned from some residents and then confirmed by some attendings/PDs, "second looks" can be a double edged sword. You need to listen closely at the interview to be sure second look visits are honestly being suggested.

Often, it is merely a formality or reflex statement, trying to be "polite". PDs and Prog coordinators are so swamp by just the primary visits. I spoke with several different attendings and was surprised that they ranked people looking for second looks lower. They (PD/attendings) suggestedor stated the idea was presumptious and made the applicant, simply by asking, look like they believed they (applicant) were doing the program a favor by considering them! The programs often use cliche statements like:

...we would be thrilled to have you here, this is your interview of us, let us know what we can show you to convince you to rank us high...

By asking for a second interview, some of these oldies feel you are assuming they really meant all that and you are worth something! To them, it is a lack of social skills. There are some offers you are not suppose to actually exercise/take them up on. I was surprised to hear this. I am amazed & disgusted everyday with the new inside information/insight I obtain. The things some of these individuals consider in desiding to rank or not rank can be apalling. Much of the discussions at interviews, etc are in fact little more the facades and gamesmanship.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Question.

What if the program coordinator suggested it a couple times and the PD later mentioned it briefly during the interview?

Also, what if the candidate genuinely needed a 2nd look to figure things out? Just because of that, they may risk getting a lower rank? Doesn't that mean it's the PD that lacks social skills to think in that regards ... that the candidate isn't trying to assume they should take him/her, but that the candidate wants to see how the program really "works" when not in a controlled environment (aka, interview day)??

I have learned from some residents and then confirmed by some attendings/PDs, "second looks" can be a double edged sword. You need to listen closely at the interview to be sure second look visits are honestly being suggested.

Often, it is merely a formality or reflex statement, trying to be "polite". PDs and Prog coordinators are so swamp by just the primary visits. I spoke with several different attendings and was surprised that they ranked people looking for second looks lower. They (PD/attendings) suggestedor stated the idea was presumptious and made the applicant, simply by asking, look like they believed they (applicant) were doing the program a favor by considering them! The programs often use cliche statements like:

...we would be thrilled to have you here, this is your interview of us, let us know what we can show you to convince you to rank us high...

By asking for a second interview, some of these oldies feel you are assuming they really meant all that and you are worth something! To them, it is a lack of social skills. There are some offers you are not suppose to actually exercise/take them up on. I was surprised to hear this. I am amazed & disgusted everyday with the new inside information/insight I obtain. The things some of these individuals consider in desiding to rank or not rank can be apalling. Much of the discussions at interviews, etc are in fact little more the facades and gamesmanship.

 

[JackADeli]

...What if the program coordinator suggested it a couple times and the PD later mentioned it briefly during the interview? ...

Some programs may have sincere second visit support/encouragement. I can't speak for any one program in particular. Only you can speak to what and how things were said when you interviewed. Nobody here can give you a "what if" answer and third party read the sincerity of what may have been said to you at an interview. The few times I have seen sincere 2nd interviews have been when the program really wanted to chase a "big fish". Credentials like the now infamous "Serrano" can garner sincere 2nd interviews which are usually also funded by the program...

...Also, what if the candidate genuinely needed a 2nd look to figure things out? Just because of that, they may risk getting a lower rank?...

The "candidate genuinely needed a 2nd look" is exactly what these oldies cited. That is, the candidate was holding themselves on a pedestal and needs the program to sell to them beyond the interview. Thus, the second visit request communicated to these individuals that the candidate could not see the value of the program where others had no trouble with an interview.

...Doesn't that mean it's the PD that lacks social skills to think in that regards...

I'm not going to debate or try and discuss what it represents of a PD/s. They are who they are and have the applicants to fill their program. You want to argue your own value or that they should provide additional options, fine, that's your choice. However, in general, you only get one shot at any program and that is the regularly scheduled interview.

...the candidate wants to see how the program really "works" when not in a controlled environment (aka, interview day)??

Do you really, honestly think programs spend all the time, money, pomp, circumstance to arrange an interview "event" because they want applicants to see them in a manner they have not controlled???? A 2nd interview to see the program in the rough does not generally represent a mutual benefit. The program, with exception will not expect that applicants seeing them outside of their best presentation is necessarily going to get them more success in matching. Such visits, in essence only serve to help the applicant.

I am not saying these things are right or wrong. I am not saying I agree with these views. I am saying, you should really consider what is facade and simple ceremony vs real sincerity. Also, you should understand, a second interview, during a busy interview cycle can present extra (often unnecessary) work for a program. In the end, nobody can answer your "what if" questions in this regard. Plenty of people may comment on what they believe is "reasonable" or "right" or "fair". And still, it wouldn't matter.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Thanks for your reply.
I suppose it could've been that since the program is not interviewing anymore candidates after my group, that they probably had the time to accommodate 2nd visits and left that to candidates that may have wanted that option.

Either way, it seems like the safer option is to not take them up on that offer.

 

[JackADeli]

...Either way, it seems like the safer option is to not take them up on that offer.

And again, I can't say that is necessarily true or not. Only you the applicant can judge that.

The residents at the time of interview may express if they came for multiple visits before they had matched and/or if those were program initiated and/or financed. This might give you insight as to what is the norm for the program.

I suppose that if after you have your interview and are back at home and they start calling/emailing (spontaneously) dates for you to come back and offering to cover costs, you can be fairly sure it is a real offer and not just some couteous but hollow comment.

My purpose in commenting in this thread is purely to provide a little insight into what may be unknown. I hear more and more med-students talking about second visits. I don't know if this is truely necessary or even honestly encouraged by programs. As noted, it can represent extra work for them. I think one should ask, if the particular field has not gotten anymore difficult for a program to fill, is a program really that motivated to go through and additional hurdle to sell the program to candidates. They are filling with the traditional one time visit. Why add more complexity? Now, in fields that number of programs outnumber the number of applicants, programs may go that extra step. still, even in such fields, I have heard plenty of for lack of a better word, ~snobbery comments about applicants asking for a second look.

So, be careful and think about what you say and what you ask. Matching is a game of obtaining information without overplaying your hand. Just because you hear about this person or that person getting "2nd visits" to other programs does not mean that is a global norm and to be expected. You need to read the situation correctly. When you start asking for something that is outside the specific program's norm, you may be alterring their perception of you as one of many candidates. That may be good or may be bad. In general, being too far of an outlier on the bell curve of first impressions can hurt.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Programs offer second looks (and talk about them a lot on interview day) because they want you to know that you can have one if you want one. They also want to convey that they're flexible and open. But 2nd looks are purely for you. Do them if you like it would be helpful in your decision process, but it's not going to change where you're ranked. If a program says several times that you can do a second look, don't be scared to do. They're not lying to you. But don't feel pressured to do one, either.

 

[Samoa]

Probably your best gauge of how sincere they are about second looks is whether any (and how many) of their current residents had either rotated at the program or come back for a second look.

There are specialties where it's very common to do one, even if it is a double edged sword. If you're interviewing in that kind of specialty, at least a few PDs will emphasize that you do NOT need to do a second look in order to be ranked highly. You should take them at their word. Some will say to come back only if you genuinely need to see more in order to decide--and in that case it might not serve your interest to do so. Others will suggest rather strongly that they view second looks as a demonstration of interest, and you'll hear informally from the residents that, yeah, you should really come back for a second look.

It's usually easy to find out where the program stands.

 

[peppy]

I agree with those who say that it's probably safest to ask the residents about if they did second looks or what their perception is of how the program views them.
Even if the program sincerely does encourage people to do 2nd looks, remember that it is possible that the 2nd look will hurt you if you inadvertently say or do something that lowers their opinion of you. I personally would rather do my best at the interview and leave it at that, but I am in a specialty where 2nd looks generally aren't very highly emphasized.

 

[Dermologue]

second look means:

1. you are uncertain regarding the program after an entire interview day. doesn't look good.
2. you are putting other applicants at a disadvantage (say someone lives a 5-hour flight away and can't afford look #2).

pds and applicants should stop this second look talk. and if an applicant does go back, do it on your own account w/o announcing it to the pd or anyone else at the program (that's the true hallmark of your visit not being an ***** kiss attempt).

 

[NotAProgDirector]

second look means:

1. you are uncertain regarding the program after an entire interview day. doesn't look good.
2. you are putting other applicants at a disadvantage (say someone lives a 5-hour flight away and can't afford look #2).

pds and applicants should stop this second look talk. and if an applicant does go back, do it on your own account w/o announcing it to the pd or anyone else at the program (that's the true hallmark of your visit not being an ***** kiss attempt).

This is one of the craziest suggestions I've seen on SDN for awhile.

There are lots of reasons why someone might want to come for a second look. I've had candidates bring their SO's to make sure they would be happy (as the SO didn't want to go to every interview location). Sometimes people end up cutting their visit somewhat short -- either due to travel delays, or due to putting interviews close to one another, and they want a chance to meet with more residents. Or lots of other reasons.

It never makes me think that they were "uncertain". Or, perhaps they're weighing my program against another -- that's fine, there are plenty of other good programs and applicants out there.

And it doesn't put other people at a disadvantage, since I don't really use whether they came for a second visit in ranking decisions. (** See note)

Showing up unannounced at a potentialfuture job site to "check it out" is some pretty bad advice, in any field, IMHO.

** Note: Not completely true. We've had people come back for a second visit where their second visit was very different from their first--either we liked them much more, or they really screw up. Plus, I speak from a mid sized univeristy IM program. Second visits in small programs where a few positions on the rank list are the difference between matching and not might have more of an effect.

 

[Dermologue]

This is one of the craziest suggestions I've seen on SDN for awhile.

There are lots of reasons why someone might want to come for a second look. I've had candidates bring their SO's to make sure they would be happy (as the SO didn't want to go to every interview location). Sometimes people end up cutting their visit somewhat short -- either due to travel delays, or due to putting interviews close to one another, and they want a chance to meet with more residents. Or lots of other reasons.

It never makes me think that they were "uncertain". Or, perhaps they're weighing my program against another -- that's fine, there are plenty of other good programs and applicants out there.

And it doesn't put other people at a disadvantage, since I don't really use whether they came for a second visit in ranking decisions. (** See note)

Showing up unannounced at a potentialfuture job site to "check it out" is some pretty bad advice, in any field, IMHO.

** Note: Not completely true. We've had people come back for a second visit where their second visit was very different from their first--either we liked them much more, or they really screw up. Plus, I speak from a mid sized univeristy IM program. Second visits in small programs where a few positions on the rank list are the difference between matching and not might have more of an effect.

I didn't say there aren't any legit reasons for WANTING to come back, but
a) there's no reason to meet w/ the pd again in person (other than schmoozing). just contact a resident or the PC and have your 2nd look. I can't think of legit reasons why a person's SO should care about the facilities, or what other residents at a program seem like to them. It's not your SO's "9-5." At this stage in life, hopefully you aren't that codependent. If you want to see the surrounding city again together, then fine. But like I say, I'm sure there aren't too many spouses checking out Microsoft or IBM's facilities together after the interview.
b) at a medium competitive or lesser competitive place, a second visit will mean something to some pd's (if it didn't mean anything to anyone anywhere, we wouldn't have this whole match courtship bs in the first place), thereby still putting the guy/girl who lives a 5-hr flight away or in another country, at a disadvantage.

 

[gutonc]

I didn't say there aren't any legit reasons for WANTING to come back, but
a) there's no reason to meet w/ the pd again in person (other than schmoozing). just contact a resident or the PC and have your 2nd look. I can't think of legit reasons why a person's SO should care about the facilities, or what other residents at a program seem like to them. It's not your SO's "9-5." At this stage in life, hopefully you aren't that codependent. If you want to see the surrounding city again together, then fine. But like I say, I'm sure there aren't too many spouses checking out Microsoft or IBM's facilities together after the interview.

At least in IM, most of the time, 2nd looks are organized entire through the Chiefs or PC and people rarely meet with the PD.

 

[slippy22]

This is one of the craziest suggestions I've seen on SDN for awhile.

There are lots of reasons why someone might want to come for a second look. I've had candidates bring their SO's to make sure they would be happy (as the SO didn't want to go to every interview location). Sometimes people end up cutting their visit somewhat short -- either due to travel delays, or due to putting interviews close to one another, and they want a chance to meet with more residents. Or lots of other reasons.

It never makes me think that they were "uncertain". Or, perhaps they're weighing my program against another -- that's fine, there are plenty of other good programs and applicants out there.

And it doesn't put other people at a disadvantage, since I don't really use whether they came for a second visit in ranking decisions. (** See note)

Showing up unannounced at a potentialfuture job site to "check it out" is some pretty bad advice, in any field, IMHO.

** Note: Not completely true. We've had people come back for a second visit where their second visit was very different from their first--either we liked them much more, or they really screw up. Plus, I speak from a mid sized univeristy IM program. Second visits in small programs where a few positions on the rank list are the difference between matching and not might have more of an effect.

What can applicants do to "really screw up" during their second look. I assume there are no formal interviews with tough questions. Have applicants been rude to people? Something else?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Arrive drunk
Punch a security guard
Offer to sleep with the PD

...you know, the usuals.

 

[Ludicolo]

Arrive drunk
Punch a security guard
Offer to sleep with the PD

...you know, the usuals.

We want details...

 

[BuckeyesFan]

I think a lot of it depends on the specialty program. I don't have any experience with the ultra-competitive fields, but I could imagine that a second visit may put time constraints on them. I was an attending in a family medicine residency program up until a few years ago. It was a good program and we were competitive, but family medicine doesn't really draw in big numbers. We welcomed second looks, but it didn't really influence how we ranked someone. We realized that for applicants who didn't rotate through our hospital that you can't really get a true sense of the place during a few hours of interviews with the attendings, lunch with some residents, and a quick hospital tour. A few people took us up on second looks and generally got to round with the inpatient team in the morning and spend some time in the office in the afternoon. I think it gave them a lot better sense of our program.

Generally, I think if you are unsure (and it's not an overly competitive specialty), it would be a good idea to go (especially if they are continually offering). If you don't have any uncertainty, I wouldn't feel like you have to go.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Would someone actually want to spend their residency years at a program that says "Sure, come have a second look" and then ranks you lower for doing so?

This sounds like this is just the tip of the iceberg of a passive agressive spiteful PD.

 

[Gastroparesis]

i was planning to do second looks the 2nd week of feb--is this too late? i cannot decide between my 1spot and 2spot.

 

[alwaysaangel]

i was planning to do second looks the 2nd week of feb--is this too late? i cannot decide between my 1spot and 2spot.

No its not too late for you to make up your mind (so long as you certify your final match list by the 23rd). Its likely too late to change anything on the programs end (if a second look would actually make them like you more or less).

 

[SouthernSeafood]

Any advice on what to wear for a second look?

 

[Deferoxamine]

Any advice on what to wear for a second look?

Clothes.

 

[lawj]

When you contact the program coordinator, just ask. There is variability depending on the specialty. With EM, it was just scrubs.

 

[gutonc]

Clothes.

Meh...I could go either way on that one.

 

[Taty]

I was on my one and only one second look yesterday (general surgery). I had a problem deciding between #1,2,3 and plus I had very weird interview so I decided to come back for the second look. I e-mailed program coordinator so she set it up.

I did not meet with PD, I followed a PGY-3 around in the morning, rounded with inpatient team, rounded with attending, and went to clinic in the afternoon. Everyone was very nice and I had a great day there.

Did it help to make my decision - I think yes
I think that second looks are for you and if you are interested in the program but did not rotate there it can be helpful to make a decision.

 

[nickster]

This is what a second look is all about. Deciding between several programs as where you want to spend the next 3 years of your life and not trying to improve your chances to match. I don't believe a second look improves your chances one bit, they have already decided if you fit their program or not. Rank em if you want but move on.