Seeing Cadavers on Interviews

[PositivePostBac]

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Ok,

So I was wondering what everyone thought about this... how do you feel about walking in on an anatomy lab during a visit as a prosepctive student in which the disections of the cadavers are going on?... Do you think its a big deal or not? Do you think its morally wrong or not? Is it voyeuristic? Is it against AMA regulations?

 

[IndyZX]

I don't know if it's against AMA regulations, but the people at UTH won't let you go into gross lab, because "you haven't taken the oath/privacy concerns/etc".

I don't think it's morally wrong, because it's not like we're smacking up the corpse.


Do other schools let you go into a live gross lab session? Wouldn't it smell up your suit?

 

[sacrament]

I think we did this on almost every interview I went on. In my opinion it's a total non-issue. I get the impression you might feel otherwise, but I cannot imagine why.

 

[Fermata]

I think that in the larger scheme of things that it's not a big deal.

 

[45408]

I don't think it's a big deal at all. If you made it to the interview stage, you are a serious medical school applicant with scientific/medical goals, and the cadavers were donated for science. I don't see a problem at all. The people ARE dead. If you shadow a surgeon, you get to see all kinds of live people laying on the table naked as well.

By no means is it a minor thing to disrespect the bodies, but it shouldn't be taken too seriously either.

 

[Senor.Frog]

..it's not a big deal..

Yes! It's really not an issue. For the OP, if I were you I would be more worried about the formaldehyde. It stinks!

 

[Mumpu]

I think it's very inappropriate. Gross anatomy is a tremendous privelege limited to medical (as well as a few other health professions) students. Under any other circumstances dismembering human bodies would land you in an electric chair.

Having said that, until you actually become a medical student you are not in. At my school, we stood outside the anatomy lab where the board with the names of all the donors hangs, but we were not allowed to even peek inside. This is a demand placed by the local anatomy board and I think it is absolutely the right thing to do.

 

[towens5]

I took gross anatomy with med students this past summer as a part of my masters program and I am currently a TA for a med school gross anatomy course. I don't think it is such a bid deal. You are only checking out the facilities. If you have moral issues with it, then ask the interviewers if you can skip that section of the tour. However, for some reason, I don't think that will positively affect your chances of getting in.

Seperate question, does the fact I have already had/taught gross anatomy going to significantly help me with admissions? I hope so.

 

[Mumpu]

With admissions, it's anyone's guess. But it will help with anatomy.

 

[agp4]

I know that in some states, its illegal to participate in a dissection without a necessary affiliation with a medical institution. I think its inappropriate to the bodies. These people donated their bodies for the sake of teaching young doctors, not be part of a three-ring circus.

That, and its just not nice to make some poor pre-med get that formaldehyde smell on their nice new suit.

 

[MoosePilot]

I know that in some states, its illegal to participate in a dissection without a necessary affiliation with a medical institution. I think its inappropriate to the bodies. These people donated their bodies for the sake of teaching young doctors, not be part of a three-ring circus.

That, and its just not nice to make some poor pre-med get that formaldehyde smell on their nice new suit.

A pass through during an interview isn't a three ring circus. Like someone said earlier, you don't get to that point without having serious credentials. About 50% of all applicants get into a medical school and once you're granted an interview your chances are much higher than that.

Clear demarcation lines between "in" and "out" aren't the way the world works. I visited the local medical school gross anatomy lab on a field trip in high school AP biology. How much less qualified were we than a group of med school interviewees? We got to touch the bodies. It was a learning experience and not meant to be disrespectful.

 

[Fermata]

We made a similar trip to a local animal morgue/pathology office for my chemistry merit badge when I was a boy scout.

Of course, now that that information is out, all the animal rights people are gonna be molotov-cocktailing my house.

 

[LauraMac]

i think it is appropriate. like a couple people have said, if you get to the point where you are interviewing at med schools, you are a mature person who would take the experience seriously. it would not be disrespectful at all.

however, i think it is very inappropriate to have high school kids in a gross lab. i just remember people in my biology class in high school throwing frog legs around and just cutting the hell out of the frog without learning anything. high school kids are not mature and serious enough to be allowed in a gross lab even if they are in an AP biology class... just my opinion, but I know I wouldn't want people that young touching my dead body.

 

[PositivePostBac]

I think we did this on almost every interview I went on. In my opinion it's a total non-issue. I get the impression you might feel otherwise, but I cannot imagine why.

Well, I feel, simply, that its an incredibly selfless act to donate your body to medcial science, to further medical education and that those people did not mean to have their bodies used as advertisements for the school, only as training for the students that were assigned to them... the bond between a doctor and the odies of the people he or she works on should be sacrosanct... I understand why, like most of the other posters, you might not feel its such a big deal, but frankly I find it rather disturbing that you as a prospective medical student yourself could not have the foggiest idea why I might be concerned about this or that its a "total non-issue"...

everybody, thanks for the input... maybe I am over-reacting... I appreciate your viewpoints...

 

[lorelei]

I wouldn't want people that young touching my dead body.

Definitely. But I thought the question was about touring an anatomy lab, not actually participating/touching. If an interview tour included touching the cadavers, I'd absolutely think that was inappropriate, and probably illegal. But just seeing them isn't the same thing, and I think it's all right for interviewees. I know that I would be mindful of the privilege and the gift these people gave, and would treat it with a lot of respect, and I think every other interviewee would too. (If anyone didn't, I'm sure they'd be weeded out.)

Some of my friends took an undergrad anatomy course at my college. They were not allowed to touch cadavers - their TAs were medical students, and the TAs did all of the dissections and marking. This is why I have the impression that seeing and touching are ethically different.

I wouldn't especially want to get my suit smelling of formaldehyde, though.

 

[YzIa]

I do not know if you are aware, but some states after fulfilling the needs of the medical schools and professional schools provide undergraduate institutions with cadavers for undergraduate anatomy and physiology. I don't know how many applicants have had hands on experience with cadavers, but its part of many undergrads experience and is part of what you are applying to. I also find it a total nonissue. In fact I would like to see the dissection setup as I would be in there for a good portion of first year.

 

[superdood]

i remember a neuroanatomy instructor showing high school students human brain. she also let them touch it. we're all here to learn, and gross anatomy is one of those things we need to learn. checking out the gross facilities is like checking out the lecture hall. gimme a break.

 

[frantic983]

.

 

[mspe22med]

I took gross anatomy with med students this past summer as a part of my masters program and I am currently a TA for a med school gross anatomy course. I don't think it is such a bid deal. You are only checking out the facilities. If you have moral issues with it, then ask the interviewers if you can skip that section of the tour. However, for some reason, I don't think that will positively affect your chances of getting in.

Seperate question, does the fact I have already had/taught gross anatomy going to significantly help me with admissions? I hope so.

I don't see this as an issue either (cadavers, prospective students). I took gross anatomy at a medical school too. Also taught A & P labs. I don't think this will significantly help our chances though. Maybe if everything else is perfect (GPA, MCAT)...it becomes something to talk about at interviews.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Whether ethically or legally wrong, I think it's in poor taste for everyone involved. maybe they wanted to see your reaction to see if you could handle it.

 

[superdevil]

of all the things to be worried about... 🙄

Originally Posted by Psycho Doctor
I think it's in poor taste for everyone involved. maybe they wanted to see your reaction to see if you could handle it.

you're reading too much into it. schools do this to show you their facilities, its not a Fear Factor episode.

Originally Posted by PositivePostBac
I find it rather disturbing that you as a prospective medical student yourself could not have the foggiest idea why I might be concerned about this or that its a "total non-issue

for future reference, sacrament is a medical student, unlike you. way to tell him how it is, though.

and now, for my own, hair-brained ideas...
my first interview this week involved going into the anatomy lab as a couple of med students were dissecting. we looked around for less than 5 minutes and left. THAT'S IT, PEOPLE! it's not like the tour guides said, "ok, everybody put on some gloves and grab a corpse. i'm turning on some mozart and we're all going to pretend to take ballroom dancing lessons with dead people."

seriously, wtf??? the people on SDN can probably find things about rainbows and teddy bears to outrage them, too.

 

[superdood]

of all the things to be worried about... 🙄


you're reading too much into it. schools do this to show you their facilities, its not a Fear Factor episode.


for future reference, sacrament is a medical student, unlike you. way to tell him how it is, though.

and now, for my own, hair-brained ideas...
my first interview this week involved going into the anatomy lab as a couple of med students were dissecting. we looked around for less than 5 minutes and left. THAT'S IT, PEOPLE! it's not like the tour guides said, "ok, everybody put on some gloves and grab a corpse. i'm turning on some mozart and we're all going to pretend to take ballroom dancing lessons with dead people."

seriously, wtf??? the people on SDN can probably find things about rainbows and teddy bears to outrage them, too.

you can blame the media for making people overly sensitive. democrats...

 

[katiekate]

you can blame the media for making people overly sensitive. democrats...

Picture this: You're on your first interview of the season and you strike it rich being lead into the clandestine anatomy lab...You think "Wow, I get to see the real bowels of the med school." The first table you come upon has a face up, cavity exposed cadavar who remarkably resembles your great-aunt who just recently passed away - what do you know...it is your aunt!!
It is happened before and could happen to you.

This is the reason Maine state law (just for example) has provided that only students and faculty are allowed to even step foot in the cadavar labs. It's for the privacy and the dignity that these people deserve after selflessly donating their bodies to the education of health profession students. It's not because we (as interviewees) may be uncomfortable, as hard to believe as it is. Further, Maine requires each student to fill out a questionaire asking if they have known anyone who has passed away within the last 3 years and if they donated their bodies to science just to be sure the incident will not occur. They are not circus acts waiting to be viewed by over-zealous gunner pre-meds.

( FYI:That school is University of New England in Biddeford, ME)

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Picture this: You're on your first interview of the season and you strike it rich being lead into the clandestine anatomy lab...You think "Wow, I get to see the real bowels of the med school." The first table you come upon has a face up, cavity exposed cadavar who remarkably resembles your great-aunt who just recently passed away - what do you know...it is your aunt!!
It is happened before and could happen to you.

whoa!!! nothing like a real life scenario to put it all in perspective

 

[45408]

I know that I would be mindful of the privilege and the gift these people gave, and would treat it with a lot of respect, and I think every other interviewee would too. (If anyone didn't, I'm sure they'd be weeded out.)....I wouldn't especially want to get my suit smelling of formaldehyde, though.

Exactly. I'm aware of the significance of it all, and I wouldn't be flippant, but I wouldn't act as if I were attending a funeral either. My intro to clinical medicine class included a tour of a hospital morgue, which didn't have any autopsies going on, so the pathologist showed us some assorted internal organs (heart, brain, etc) that I thought was appropriate to the students in the course. If I'm going to spend a lot of time in a gross lab my first year or two, I'd like to have a quick glimpse.

 

[45408]

Picture this: You're on your first interview of the season and you strike it rich being lead into the clandestine anatomy lab...You think "Wow, I get to see the real bowels of the med school." The first table you come upon has a face up, cavity exposed cadavar who remarkably resembles your great-aunt who just recently passed away - what do you know...it is your aunt!!
It is happened before and could happen to you....Further, Maine requires each student to fill out a questionaire asking if they have known anyone who has passed away within the last 3 years and if they donated their bodies to science just to be sure the incident will not occur. They are not circus acts waiting to be viewed by over-zealous gunner pre-meds.

Please. You could still encounter someone you knew if you didn't even know they'd died, let alone donated their body to science. Talk about paranoia.

 

[Megalofyia]

I don't know if it's against AMA regulations, but the people at UTH won't let you go into gross lab, because "you haven't taken the oath/privacy concerns/etc".

I don't think it's morally wrong, because it's not like we're smacking up the corpse.


Do other schools let you go into a live gross lab session? Wouldn't it smell up your suit?

It was only at the Texas schools that we did not go into the gross labs. Everywhere else I interviewed it was one of the first places on the tour. It was never an issue and it was pretty interesting to see how different schools set up their labs. I now know I have a preferance for schools that have a way to filter out the smell and schools that have overhead TVs where you can see the prosection. I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't had the chance to see different labs.

 

[mspe22med]

Originally Posted by IndyZX
I don't know if it's against AMA regulations, but the people at UTH won't let you go into gross lab, because "you haven't taken the oath/privacy concerns/etc".

I don't think it's morally wrong, because it's not like we're smacking up the corpse.


Do other schools let you go into a live gross lab session? Wouldn't it smell up your suit?
----------------------

Whenever potential students came to our labs it was a "live" session. Not sure why so many people have a problem with this. The cadavers are there for us to learn. The emotional element, very important in patient care, left when he/she passed on. In the lab I worked in, the head/face/areas not being worked on, were kept covered....faces were not uncovered when students visited. I don't think most anatomy labs use formaldehyde/formalin anymore...so the smell is not that bad.

 

[Megalofyia]

Some schools do let you look into a class. No it doesn't smell up your suit cause your non touching the bodies. Just looking.

 

[skiz knot]

I think it's very inappropriate. Gross anatomy is a tremendous privelege limited to medical (as well as a few other health professions) students. Under any other circumstances dismembering human bodies would land you in an electric chair.

Having said that, until you actually become a medical student you are not in. At my school, we stood outside the anatomy lab where the board with the names of all the donors hangs, but we were not allowed to even peek inside. This is a demand placed by the local anatomy board and I think it is absolutely the right thing to do.

Get off your high horse! Any schmo who got into my undergraduate U could take a course in human anatomy (using cadavers) that was offered by the college of kinesiology. It was not limited to students in that college (i.e. a friggin history major could take the class if s/he wanted to), but they did have priority registration in the class.

The issue is totally up to the local anatomical gift society, and how they want to regulate things.

 

[skiz knot]

i think it is appropriate. like a couple people have said, if you get to the point where you are interviewing at med schools, you are a mature person who would take the experience seriously. it would not be disrespectful at all.

however, i think it is very inappropriate to have high school kids in a gross lab. i just remember people in my biology class in high school throwing frog legs around and just cutting the hell out of the frog without learning anything. high school kids are not mature and serious enough to be allowed in a gross lab even if they are in an AP biology class... just my opinion, but I know I wouldn't want people that young touching my dead body.

I also went to a gross lab in high school. It was one of the few times we actually did behave😉 I think you underestimate the ability of young-adults to act like adults in serious situations.

 

[v-tach]

I personally do not see the big deal about taking a peek into the gross anatomy labs while dissections are going on, as long as people do not behave in an immature manner. After all, once in med school we will be the ones doing the dissecting, and it would be helpful to see the facilities in use. I certainly agree with the need to be respectful and all, but we should also remember that it is a body that somebody is no longer using; it is not the person.

 

[superdood]

Picture this: You're on your first interview of the season and you strike it rich being lead into the clandestine anatomy lab...You think "Wow, I get to see the real bowels of the med school." The first table you come upon has a face up, cavity exposed cadavar who remarkably resembles your great-aunt who just recently passed away - what do you know...it is your aunt!!
It is happened before and could happen to you.

This is the reason Maine state law (just for example) has provided that only students and faculty are allowed to even step foot in the cadavar labs. It's for the privacy and the dignity that these people deserve after selflessly donating their bodies to the education of health profession students. It's not because we (as interviewees) may be uncomfortable, as hard to believe as it is. Further, Maine requires each student to fill out a questionaire asking if they have known anyone who has passed away within the last 3 years and if they donated their bodies to science just to be sure the incident will not occur. They are not circus acts waiting to be viewed by over-zealous gunner pre-meds.

( FYI:That school is University of New England in Biddeford, ME)

are you a lawyer? we don't need your kind destroying the integrity of this great country

 

[b-real]

are you a lawyer? we don't need your kind destroying the integrity of this great country

Wow, your kind...Spoken like a true...never mind.

While I agree that studying the human body is a privilege, I believe that it's totally within bounds to have a peek into gross lab if its part of the tour. If the med school disallows it, that's a different story. As a freshman in college I had a chance to see a few autopsies at the county coroner's office and neither the coroner, the state nor I thought anything of it.

 

[Mumpu]

Skiz, just because something is done does not automatically make it right, ethical, or moral, does it?

I don't think 18-year-olds are mature enough to appreciate the generosity of the donors. I attended a showing of a pre-dissected cadaver in high school. I don't think it was right either -- I certainly did not appreciate the whole situation.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

of all the things to be worried about... 🙄


you're reading too much into it. schools do this to show you their facilities, its not a Fear Factor episode.

i saw Fear Factor for the first time ever tonight. 😳

 

[dmk724]

It's certainly interesting to see how different schools approach the issue. Pitt, I know, takes the students in to the anatomy lab, but my school (Jefferson) refuses to. This is mostly because the professor in charge of the anatomy course absolutely refuses to let anyone who is not registered for the course to go into the dissection lab. (I think that this ban extends to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th students as well, but I might be wrong.) I can understand his logic - these people donated their bodies to be used as a teaching tool, not to have people in suits walk by and ogle at them. The 2nd reason why we're not supposed to bring interview groups in to the lab is that it's possible that some students might faint or throw up. (Not outside the realm of possibility.) It's not that they won't be able to handle it once they get to med school, but they just might need some more time to steel themselves for it. There's no way to determine what the groups might be seeing if they walked into the lab. I think that if I had been on an interview tour and had walked into the lab while they were doing what we were doing a few weeks ago (taking sagittal cuts completely through women's breasts), I would have been a bit upset.

Picture this: You're on your first interview of the season and you strike it rich being lead into the clandestine anatomy lab...You think "Wow, I get to see the real bowels of the med school." The first table you come upon has a face up, cavity exposed cadavar who remarkably resembles your great-aunt who just recently passed away - what do you know...it is your aunt!!

I guess that could happen, although, to be honest, the first thing that goes through my mind when I hear that is not "Gee, how scary that it could happen to me." The first thing that I think is "Hey, sloppy med students." If you don't keep the extremities covered and well hydrated, then they'll dry out quite quickly (they have less fat to keep things moist), and you'll never be able to distinguish separate structures. So, depending on the way the lab is set up, I think that it's unusual for someone to randomly walk through the lab and see a face.

 

[45408]

Skiz, just because something is done does not automatically make it right, ethical, or moral, does it?

I don't think 18-year-olds are mature enough to appreciate the generosity of the donors. I attended a showing of a pre-dissected cadaver in high school. I don't think it was right either -- I certainly did not appreciate the whole situation.

Yes, and all generalizations are right. 🙄

 

[superdood]

i saw Fear Factor for the first time ever tonight. 😳

i watched tonight's episode too. talk about a great anatomy... did u see those pendulous breasts on the short girl?

 

[beanbean]

We do walk students through the anatomy lab as part of the tour; however, the cadavers are draped with white sheets, and the tour isnot during lab dissection periods. Occasionally, before exams usually, there may be students in the lab reviewing structures and they will often cover the cadaver before the students come in. This allows the prospective students to see the facilities, but doesn't violate the privacy of the donors. Students are prohibited from bringing anyone into the anatomy lab that is not a med student except when conducting the tour for interviewees.

In re: to the story about someone recognizing a cadaver. All of our cadavers had there heads and hands wrapped by the students the first day of class. They were kept covered until the dissection of that area was done.

 

[kaikai128]

During undergrad, there was a class that was directly for pre-meds planning on going to medical school. Part of this class was a tour of the local medical school, including the gross lab and seeing some of the bodies. This was done in the most discrete fashion possible, we were not to touch, and every person was appropriately covered when we were not viewing certain parts of the body.

My classmates and I found this to be a great experience. For some of us, it made us want to learn more about the human body and compelled us to continue on our track of medicine. For others, it was a reality check in that about half of the students were unable to remain in the room and had to excuse themselves. I am glad I had this experience, and hope that other prosepctive medical school students also have the same opportunities.

 

[drsungoddess]

During my past intewrview we visited the anatomy labs but we were not allowed to view the bodies due to legal reasons. However, when i went to UT Galveston, the had many preserved specimens and tissues in jars that were in plain view for everyone to see. I do not think it is wrong to visit an anatomy lab on an interview, but I would not expect a school to let us disect and spend a substatial amount of time with them. I have been to a few conferences where we were allowed to examine prosections. That was very educational.