Seeing the applications of organic chemistry?

[numbersloth]

I'm currently in orgo 1 and doing "fine" (~B+). I'd love to bump my grade up to an A, but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example? I loved gen chem because we'd do applied problems (ex: nuclear science, environmental science, etc.) but I'm having trouble seeing how things connect in orgo. Any advice/resources?

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[Med Ed]

I'm currently in orgo 1 and doing "fine" (~B+). I'd love to bump my grade up to an A, but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example? I loved gen chem because we'd do applied problems (ex: nuclear science, environmental science, etc.) but I'm having trouble seeing how things connect in orgo. Any advice/resources?

Materials. Pharmaceuticals.

 

[numbersloth]

Materials. Pharmaceuticals.

I guess I was more wondering whether anyone knew any resources for practice problems or explanatory videos that take an applications-based approach. I just learn better when I can connect concepts.

 

[TypeADissection]

As someone who didn't major in science, to me, the reason for taking organic chem or physics is to learn how to think in abstractions. To learn how to take incomplete information and systematically find a way towards a solution. It has nothing to do with SN1 or 2s. Not saying other classes can't teach you these things but take advantage of these moments. Cheers.

 

[Med Ed]

I guess I was more wondering whether anyone knew any resources for practice problems or explanatory videos that take an applications-based approach. I just learn better when I can connect concepts.

Just end each problem by proclaiming "And that's how plastic is made!"

 

[FreeWillApparatus]

"but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example?"

Check out Thalidomide wikipedia page. The drug was released as an racemic mixture when one of the enatiomers was teratogenic. I'd hope my doctor would know the difference, at least on a conceptual level.

It's the difference between know "mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" to "oxidative phosphorylation". Or when acetylcholine is released how it is broken down at the synaptic cleft. DNA base pair binding and thiamine dimers. What vitamins actually are and what they do biochemically. Why are saturated fats bad vs unsaturated, why is one a solid and the other a liquid. Why do steroids pass through and hormones need carriers...

Organic chemistry should be giving you the tools to why biology works and understand problems when it doesn't work. It underpins everything biological. For me organic chemistry was when everything made sense, when you understand things at the most fundamental level. Biology became a lot less handwaiving and representing diagrams as "blobs" instead of what they actually are. It brings you from the elementary school picture of biology to the reality of everything. Gah, I could go on and on. Then if you get into science, how people cure a disease (as opposed to prescribing a drug) or understand a problem, organic chemistry is there.

That said, most doctors don't need it. It's more like "see set of symptoms, prescribe this or that drug".

 

[Goro]

I'm currently in orgo 1 and doing "fine" (~B+). I'd love to bump my grade up to an A, but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example? I loved gen chem because we'd do applied problems (ex: nuclear science, environmental science, etc.) but I'm having trouble seeing how things connect in orgo. Any advice/resources?

If you want to understand, say, toxicology, and treat someone who has insecticide poisoning, you need to know something about organophosphates.

 

[kbac13]

Also, when you learn pharmacology in med school, knowing the basic mechanism of action of drugs may help you understand why and how one drug works and another one doesn't. And then the application to toxicology, as @Goro mentioned.

 

[Goro]

Ad if you wish to understand diabetes, you have to know what glucose is.

Wanna understand amino acid deficiencies? You gotta know what an amino acid is.

They're all Legos, building upon one another.

 

[mistafab]

Ochem1 is a little tougher to "visualize" from what I remember. However, the things in Ochem 2 that are useful to apply are built on ochem1. So why is cyanide so poisonous? Why are -oh groups on every fatty acid chain? These little things add up to why your body stores its energy how it does, why it compartmentalizes reactions in the way it does, and how the forces at the molecular level add up to unique signatures and activate proteins / receptors.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm currently in orgo 1 and doing "fine" (~B+). I'd love to bump my grade up to an A, but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example? I loved gen chem because we'd do applied problems (ex: nuclear science, environmental science, etc.) but I'm having trouble seeing how things connect in orgo. Any advice/resources?

Chirality is important because it shows how enzymes and receptor-ligand interactions (and also drug interactions) work. The thalidomide controversy shows the importance of chirality: (R) thalidomide is therapeutically active used to treat morning sickness in pregnant women, whereas (S) thalidomide is ineffective and responsible for birth defects: Thalidomide & the Importance of Stereochemistry

Chemical reactions and mechanisms are important in drug development and also understanding biochemical pathways (glycolysis can be thought of as a reverse aldol condensation reaction).

 

[TheBiologist]

"why is chirality relevant to biology"

are you paying full attention in class? It's hard to believe your professor didn't say SOMETHING about enzymes or drugs

 

[numbersloth]

"why is chirality relevant to biology"

are you paying full attention in class? It's hard to believe your professor didn't say SOMETHING about enzymes or drugs

Yes I am. The prof barely finishes each lecture, let alone mentions applications.
For reference, I *loved* gen chem and came into orgo with a lot of excitement. Its been ok but definitely very different from a pedagogical standpoint.

 

[Save a life]

It’s a way of thinking they teach you and a language. Although you’ll never need to know reaction mechanisms as a physician, it helps with understanding biochem and pharmacology.

 

[TennisWalk]

I was just like you, i hated Ochem. But once i started BioChem it all made sense!
Ochem is sort of the basic level of real chemistry (Gen. Chem. is just way to broad), so be sure you understand the material so that you can do well in Biochem!

 

[aldol16]

How it's relevant to biology and medicine is pretty different from whether you'll ever use it in medicine. Organic chemistry concepts are very important in medicine because biology is just applied organic chemistry. It's what makes life work. For instance, your body can only use one enantiomer of most bioactive compounds. The other enantiomer is inactive. Your proteins and enzymes are also chiral, which has important implications for treatments. D-methamphetamine is illegal and does **** to your head. L-methamphetamine is not psychoactive and is found in OTC formulations.

 

[Richanesthesiologist]

Right now, just focus on learning the mechanisms. My biggest problem is not not understanding, but since our exams are free response, just thinking of how the mechanism applies/order based on the situation.

Currently, I'm sitting at either a B+ or A- in orgo 1. I'm in a class with only chemistry majors, and its based on rankings. About 34% get A's, 12% A-, and 40% get some sort of B. An A is typically a 79+, but the averages on the exams are like under 60.

 

[Endoxifen]

Doing OChem the hard way gives you pretty solid heuristics, on which you can build your biochem, on which you can build your molecular biology and physiology, etc. There have been plenty of times in my wetbench and clinical research where my OChem has come in useful. Though I'm not a doctor, the people I was working with were. Though you're certainly not going to have to remember the specific reactions in OChem, your understanding of OChem will serve you in the future.

 

[deleted804295]

"but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example?"

Check out Thalidomide wikipedia page. The drug was released as an racemic mixture when one of the enatiomers was teratogenic. I'd hope my doctor would know the difference, at least on a conceptual level.

It's the difference between know "mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell" to "oxidative phosphorylation". Or when acetylcholine is released how it is broken down at the synaptic cleft. DNA base pair binding and thiamine dimers. What vitamins actually are and what they do biochemically. Why are saturated fats bad vs unsaturated, why is one a solid and the other a liquid. Why do steroids pass through and hormones need carriers...

Organic chemistry should be giving you the tools to why biology works and understand problems when it doesn't work. It underpins everything biological. For me organic chemistry was when everything made sense, when you understand things at the most fundamental level. Biology became a lot less handwaiving and representing diagrams as "blobs" instead of what they actually are. It brings you from the elementary school picture of biology to the reality of everything. Gah, I could go on and on. Then if you get into science, how people cure a disease (as opposed to prescribing a drug) or understand a problem, organic chemistry is there.

That said, most doctors don't need it. It's more like "see set of symptoms, prescribe this or that drug".

I'm having the same problem as you right now due to not understanding real world applications in Organic Chemistry. I always did better in my courses when I connected it to real world applications.

My professor sometimes connects his material back to the real world but it's maybe once every month and not enough to make me interested in the material.

There's also just a lack of videos connecting mechanisms back to the real world. I hate it honestly but connecting it back to the real world is what Biochem is for. I just have an overall disappointment with chemistry in general and the lack of real world connections. If math and physics can do it, why does chemistry still have to be centuries behind when it comes to teaching?

 

[dr_kateb]

The chemistry courses you have to learn aren't tailored for pre-medical students. Lots of majors require general and organic chemistry. It's in pretty much all school's premed prereq requirements because it shows how hardworking/intelligent you are. It's a weed out class more than anything.

 

[boogiecousins94]

just to expand on the chirality aspect- a lot of times different enantiomers are more potent than their counterparts. (S) Warfarin is 5x more potent than (R) Warfarin, but it was originally developed as a racemic mixture. Warfarin has aromatic rings etc. so it's bulky, but it acts is on vitamin K, which is also bulky. You can't have two bulky things interacting with each other head on- there will be some sort of steric hindrance- that is why chirality exists per se. Different enantiomers may clash or fit into certain spaces that others may not, just due to their orientation in space even if they're the same compound. Chirality can help you minimize the amount of drug you actually have to use if you understand the binding affinities etc.

 

[Mister Significant]

I'm currently in orgo 1 and doing "fine" (~B+). I'd love to bump my grade up to an A, but my main problem is that I'm having trouble seeing "why" we are learning what we're learning and how it fits together. Why is understanding chirality relevant to biology, for example? I loved gen chem because we'd do applied problems (ex: nuclear science, environmental science, etc.) but I'm having trouble seeing how things connect in orgo. Any advice/resources?

I feel like Organic Chemistry is really close to the actual practice of medicinein. Your given a bunch of information, and you learn them in chunks, then you have to incorporate all of this misc info to solve problems. A reagent may act as a base, then act as an acid in the next problem. A bulky base does a certain thing to a molecule with a pKA of ....
In medicine your patient has a,b,c and d. with a and c they may have this. But because they have b they can’t. Don’t overthink it. All science is is observations made by man and explained by man.

 

[bananafish94]

I'm a former organic chemistry TA. As for the actual science of organic chemistry...it's honestly not important for the practice of medicine. I love the subject endlessly, but the truth is that you will never need that knowledge again.

However, the thought process behind it is quite similar to diagnostic medicine -- if taught correctly. A good organic chemistry problem should give you a bunch of information about the reactants, reagents, conditions, etc. You have decide what information is relevant, what is unnecessary, and what you need to know more about. Then in order to get to the root of the problem, you have to use some memorization, logic, and maybe a little bit of experience. It's just like a clinical vignette that you would find in a medical school exam, or a real primary care patient encounter.

 

[sliceofbread136]

The big secret is that orgo is entirely useless for a physician. Med schools are playing a cruel joke on you by forcing you to take it. In my opinion it should be replaced by a required course in Spanish, a significantly more practical topic

 

[PlsLetMeIn21]

Maybe we should take organic chemistry in Spanish.

 

[altblue]

The big secret is that orgo is entirely useless for a physician. Med schools are playing a cruel joke on you by forcing you to take it. In my opinion it should be replaced by a required course in Spanish, a significantly more practical topic

You still need it to fully understand biochemistry (and pharmacology), which is definitely relevant to medical school. That doesn't even get to the possible thinking skills developed from taking the class

Spanish can be extremely helpful but isn't mandatory for medical practice.

 

[sliceofbread136]

You still need it to fully understand biochemistry (and pharmacology), which is definitely relevant to medical school. That doesn't even get to the possible thinking skills developed from taking the class

Spanish can be extremely helpful but isn't mandatory for medical practice.

Biochem is a fine class and one you’ll actually take in medical school but for our scope it requires zero ochem knowledge. Ochem is 1000% not necessary for a physicians knowledge of pharmacology as well. As far as “thinking skills” that is ******ed, I can practice my “thinking skills” in a useful class or enjoyable class thank you very much.

 

[aldol16]

Organic chemistry is important because it's how life works. All biochemistry is is a subset of organic reactions that are elaborated over and over again. Maybe once you get to biochemistry, you still have problems seeing how it relates to the clinical setting. Biochemistry is reflected in the labs that physicians run - all those values mean something. And enzyme function is inherently tied to metabolic function - whether you have vitamin deficiencies or inborn errors of metabolism. Organic mechanisms are also responsible for how drugs work. If you don't understand organic chemistry, you won't understand how or why drugs like HIV protease inhibitors work. You wont't be able to understand how fluorouracil works. All you'll be able to do is memorize a bunch of disjoint facts and not be able to connect them - and that's not what makes a good physician.

 

[altblue]

Biochem is a fine class and one you’ll actually take in medical school but for our scope it requires zero ochem knowledge. Ochem is 1000% not necessary for a physicians knowledge of pharmacology as well. As far as “thinking skills” that is ******ed, I can practice my “thinking skills” in a useful class or enjoyable class thank you very much.

Man please avoid that word

The problem is that 75 percent of the difficulty in biology, which is most relevant to medicine, memorizing and comparatively little is spent problem solving. Gen chem Orgo and physics have more of this and some minimum of relevance to medicine and since everyone is required to take them you get a nice standard going for who can solve puzzles and reason well. Orgo in particular doesn't have much math so it's more analogous to qualitative on the fly problem solving

Also undergrads aren't specifically training students to become doctors. Some might become biochemists, pharmacologists, or yeah pure chemists and need to understand mechanisms and general functional group reactivity to do their research. Undergrad schools help provide that basis with organic chemistry when students do take the more helpful biochemistry

 

[Robin-jay]

I used what I learned in Organic chemistry to invent a chemistry reaction.

Physics is a curious pre-req. for medical school though.

 

[Ninefingers]

I actually think organic chem was important. There were some aspects of my particular class I didn't agree with (marking the entire 5 point question wrong if you missed a single "+" on the companion ion in a huge molecule... but even that taught me to be more careful), but the material continues to be fairly relevant.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Man please avoid that word

The problem is that 75 percent of the difficulty in biology, which is most relevant to medicine, memorizing and comparatively little is spent problem solving. Gen chem Orgo and physics have more of this and some minimum of relevance to medicine and since everyone is required to take them you get a nice standard going for who can solve puzzles and reason well. Orgo in particular doesn't have much math so it's more analogous to qualitative on the fly problem solving

Also undergrads aren't specifically training students to become doctors. Some might become biochemists, pharmacologists, or yeah pure chemists and need to understand mechanisms and general functional group reactivity to do their research. Undergrad schools help provide that basis with organic chemistry when students do take the more helpful biochemistry

Sorry you won’t convince that ochem is enough like clinical problem solving that it has to be included in our curriculum. No class emulates that experience. As far required classes that stray away from memorization gen chem and physics do that just fine and actually have some useful applications in my day to day. If someone has to take ochem for their specific major in biochem, chem etc then that is obviously a different story. I just don’t see the rationale for it being a required course, especially 2 semesters worth. Personally I would replace it with something like more biochem or a basic pharmacology class that emphasizes drug kinetics.

I used what I learned in Organic chemistry to invent a chemistry reaction.

Physics is a curious pre-req. for medical school though.

Basic physics is useful to understand cv physio and flow. 2 semester maybe overkill but I think the first semester is a good requirement

 

[Lucca]

When you take biochemistry it will be patently obvious

 

[longhaul3]

Biochem is a fine class and one you’ll actually take in medical school but for our scope it requires zero ochem knowledge. Ochem is 1000% not necessary for a physicians knowledge of pharmacology as well.

I agree. Don't intend to stir the pot but it seems like most of the people here who are claiming otherwise are either pre-meds or M1s. You don't really need to know biochemistry or orgo on more than a superficial level to be a good doctor. Yes, it's relevant to IEMs, but IEMs are rare and you don't need a super high-level understanding of chemistry to know to avoid phenylalanine in PKU and to tell the parents that. A two-semester education in orgo is also not necessary to understand how 5-FU works; if anything it's more important to have a strong education in DNA synthesis, which is more commonly a biology topic.

 

[Lucca]

I think whether or not you need a subject to “be a good doctor” and to understand human disease are two different, partially overlapping questions. The principles of organic chemistry govern most of the reactions happening in the all of life, from bacteria to humans. If you want to understand how anything happens in the body - healthy or sick - you will borrow heavily from organic and biochemistry in order to do that.

You might forget it all and never touch the subject again after passing Step, so an argument could be made that it shouldn’t be a requirement for med school. Obviously you don’t need to remember the step by step mechanism of every reaction or how to synthesize a suicide inhibitor to know when to prescribe drug X vs drug Y. But that doesn’t mean the subject isn’t relevant to actually understanding how drug X works, or coming up with a new, better drug, etc. The latter is just something most docs won’t do every day, maybe ever.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think whether or not you need a subject to “be a good doctor” and to understand human disease are two different, partially overlapping questions. The principles of organic chemistry govern most of the reactions happening in the all of life, from bacteria to humans. If you want to understand how anything happens in the body - healthy or sick - you will borrow heavily from organic and biochemistry in order to do that.

You might forget it all and never touch the subject again after passing Step, so an argument could be made that it shouldn’t be a requirement for med school. Obviously you don’t need to remember the step by step mechanism of every reaction or how to synthesize a suicide inhibitor to know when to prescribe drug X vs drug Y. But that doesn’t mean the subject isn’t relevant to actually understanding how drug X works, or coming up with a new, better drug, etc. The latter is just something most docs won’t do every day, maybe ever.

I struggle to think of anything I learned in orgo that I didn’t learn in gen chem or biochem that had any application in medical school (prestep or poststep). I could maybe see requiring one semester to cover the very basics you learn in the first couple of weeks, but orgo 2 seemed like a complete and utter waste.

I don’t know if this has changed, but in my days biochem wasn’t required at all and 2 semesters of orgo was. This made no sense to me as I thought biochem was significantly more relevant to being a doctor and was actually much more similar to what medical school is actually like.

 

[Lucca]

I struggle to think of anything I learned in orgo that I didn’t learn in gen chem or biochem that had any application in medical school (prestep or poststep). I could maybe see requiring one semester to cover the very basics you learn in the first couple of weeks, but orgo 2 seemed like a complete and utter waste.

I don’t know if this has changed, but in my days biochem wasn’t required at all and 2 semesters of orgo was. This made no sense to me as I thought biochem was significantly more relevant to being a doctor and was actually much more similar to what medical school is actually like.

A lot of schools require only 1 semester of orgo and then 1 of biochem. Many 2 orgo and 1 biochem.

 

[sliceofbread136]

A lot of schools require only 1 semester of orgo and then 1 of biochem. Many 2 orgo and 1 biochem.

1 orgo and one biochem is fine. Honestly I think even one semester of orgo may be unnecessary and you could get away with just biochem

 

[Lucca]

1 orgo and one biochem is fine. Honestly I think even one semester of orgo may be unnecessary and you could get away with just biochem

I’ll take your word for it, but at most schools you need at least 1orgo if not both semesters to take biochem. There *are* non premeds in undergrad lol.

TBH they should just do away with requirements altogether. Studying for the McAT should be sufficient to show you can teach yourself / be taught technical content at a high enough lvl to survive med school. Let ppl take what they want.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I’ll take your word for it, but at most schools you need at least 1orgo if not both semesters to take biochem. There *are* non premeds in undergrad lol.

TBH they should just do away with requirements altogether. Studying for the McAT should be sufficient to show you can teach yourself / be taught technical content at a high enough lvl to survive med school. Let ppl take what they want.

I don’t remember tbh. Been a long time. But on your second point I agree