Segregation and Medical School - What has irritated me about the application process

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Ethnic diversity does not equate into intellectual diversity.

Racism is discrimination the on basis of race. AA discriminates on the basis of race. AA is racism.
 
Just in case you missed it, it has been illegal to consider a persons race or ethnicity AT ALL as a factor in admissions in California since 1996. I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness sometimes, against the frequest complaints that non-URMs are unfairly denied spots in California. It's not true, so if you are mad that you didn't get in, blame the AMA and the state gov't for keeping the # of spots so small, not the few students who did get in. When aa ended, the diversity of the entering classes suffered significantly. As a student, the loss of diversity negatively impacted my education (the 90% you learn outside the classroom part).

This post is not in response to the original topic raised, but sometimes it's hard for me to stay quiet when I see mis-truths.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by paean:
•Just in case you missed it, it has been illegal to consider a persons race or ethnicity AT ALL as a factor in admissions in California since 1996. I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness sometimes, against the frequest complaints that non-URMs are unfairly denied spots in California. It's not true, so if you are mad that you didn't get in, blame the AMA and the state gov't for keeping the # of spots so small, not the few students who did get in. When aa ended, the diversity of the entering classes suffered significantly. As a student, the loss of diversity negatively impacted my education (the 90% you learn outside the classroom part).

This post is not in response to the original topic raised, but sometimes it's hard for me to stay quiet when I see mis-truths.•••••You are quite right in terms of what the law is and quite wrong in terms of what actually happens in admissions. <a href="http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/" target="_blank">http://www.acusd.edu/~e_cook/</a>
 
Thanks for the link none. I have a hard time taking seriously any site that cites the Bakke case. While I am against quotas, that case was a bad joke. White guy applies at UC Davis, doesn't get in. His numbers are far higher than the WHITE OR URM applicants who do get in. The admissions committee and his interiewer both commented that he lacked maturity to be a doctor, he was rejected. He sues Davis saying that quotas caused him to be rejected.

HE WAS REJECTED BECAUSE HE LACKED MATURITY. This is a character flaw, and one that I would not want in a classmate, or doctor. But the court sides with him, and orders Davis to let him in and drop quotas.

People who cite that case usually seem like they are trying to manipulate the data to prove a point, regardless of correctness.

If it is actually the law, but not the practice of the school, why aren't URM numbers higher? They certainly could be.
 
Thanks for the link none. I have a hard time taking seriously any site that cites the Bakke case. While I am against quotas, that case was a bad joke. White guy applies at UC Davis, doesn't get in. His numbers are far higher than the WHITE OR URM applicants who do get in. The admissions committee and his interiewer both commented that he lacked maturity to be a doctor, he was rejected. He sues Davis saying that quotas caused him to be rejected.

HE WAS REJECTED BECAUSE HE LACKED MATURITY. This is a character flaw, and one that I would not want in a classmate, or doctor. But the court sides with him, and orders Davis to let him in and drop quotas.

People who cite that case usually seem like they are trying to manipulate the data to prove a point, regardless of correctness.

If it is actually the law, but not the practice of the school, why aren't URM numbers higher? They certainly could be.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by quake:
•I can't believe that most of you have allowed Scooby to throw dust into your eyes. It shows how easily people are willing to speak against any attempt at helping to improve the URM.

I will respond to every one of his supposedly good points.

1. Special tour, special lunch and special whatever. First of all the use of the word special is misleading. It suggests that the minority tour and lunch were in some way "better" than the others.I did not notice this at any of the seven interviews I did. So first of all I would not rule out the possibility that u may be exaggerating. However, even if there was another tour and lunch; is it not possible that the SNMA representative scheduled to meet the URM applicant had a schedule conflict later in the day arranged to kill two birds with a stone by meeting the applicant earlier in the day during the tour and lunch. To this end, it makes sense to me that they had lunch at a different table so as to address minority related issues without offending the likes of you.

About minorities being whisked away. I have to point out that the interview day is a very busy day. So what if you were not allowed to talk with one URM applicant. It so happened that the appointments he/she had were scheduled for the time you wanted to chit-chat; big deal. Let me also point out that some applicants sometimes have to catch an airplane out of town hence their appointments are almost back to back, precluding any opportunity for them to mingle. This goes for both blacks and whites.

Come on guys the interview day is a day set aside an applicant and a medschool to be aquainted. It is not a fraternity party for applicants! The fact that you don't get to mingle with URMs on interview day does not in any way mean that the school wants to make sure that blacks and whites are segregated. That is such a ridiculous notion.

Oh, now lets talk about the second look weekend. There are many schools that do not have an official second look weekend. Imagine that school X falls into that category. However, schook X happens to have a very active and organized SNMA organization OR lets say the minority affairs office in school X is so well-organized that they sponsor their own second look weekend. That is to say that, the group has its own funds and it is allowed to invite anybody they darn well please to take a second look. Why is that so hard to handle?

i suggest that you look deeper into your heart and try to ascertain why this bothers you so much. I think you probably played the race card without ample evidence to support your notions.

Cheers•••••You obviously missed my point too! Jeez...I am not going to waste much time on you...

1) At MY (MY MY MY that's right...my interviews) I saw this happen....not yours...so get off it!

2) I was typing a long ass post..I didn't want to put etc..sorry..my bad..wrong word...I put whatever....ya know...whatever! I do it a lot 🙂

3) you are missing my point. I am saying that at NYU one dude did not even say HI to me...

You know...you missed it..and should reread it...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by tonem:
•If you're not an MD/PhD stupid does that make you a regular stupid? (just kidding mr. prime)

R. Prime, that was my point exactly. I wasn't implying that special treatment for MD/PhDs is unfair. Medical schools get a majority of the grant money allocated to "mudphuds". Medical schools also profit (albeit in more intangible ways) by increasing the percentage of URMs enrolled in their programs so why is it unfair if they treat URMs like they treat MD/PhDs?•••••Um... ok, it's Mrs. Prime... but anyway... I don't really think you can compare URMs to MD/PhD people. MD/PhD's are going to be more or less emplyees of the school... they're situation in medical school is just different.

I agree with what Scoobie said about poverty. it's not race that keeps people out of medical school... it's economics... and it happens to be that African Americans on average are poorer the whites on average. AA needs to be redirected towards economic status rather than race.
 
scooby, that has to be the saddest rebuttal on SDN. why can't you admit you may have been too hasty in jumping to a conclusion.

So what if you didn't get to say Hi. I wasn't able to say Hi to every fellow applicant at all my interviews, big deal.

If it is all about you you you you then don't post it here. As soon as you post something on a public forum it seizes to be you you you you you, it becomes us us us us us.
I am willing to discuss this for as long as you hold on to your lopsided myopic views.
 
Scooby, I understand your concern. I know that my pm'ing you about the urm weekends probably helped to spark this. But I do understand, b/c I just came back from two 2nd look weekends for only urm's. So I will not get a chance to meet cool people like Scoob who are not urm's til classes begin. I never had the experience of being given a special tour or called from the rest of the interviewees or anything like that. Contrary to popular belief, unqualified urm's are not taking up all of the spots for medical school. There is a very small group of highly qualified urm's that are actively being sought after by medical schools for the sake of diversity and the committment to serve under-represented populations. I think that the urm weekends are small enough to help focus on the concerns of urms and also to help convince the urms of the greatness of their school.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by quake:
•scooby, that has to be the saddest rebuttal on SDN. why can't you admit you may have been too hasty in jumping to a conclusion.

So what if you didn't get to say Hi. I wasn't able to say Hi to every fellow applicant at all my interviews, big deal.

If it is all about you you you you then don't post it here. As soon as you post something on a public forum it seizes to be you you you you you, it becomes us us us us us.
I am willing to discuss this for as long as you hold on to your lopsided myopic views.•••••God you are annoying...You just totally don't understand and that I chose to not take any effort to reply to your post. I don't care if you get to say hi to every applicant and or I get to do that! I was pointing out AN OXYMORON on how the schools want to promote diversity but in the process of trying to do this, they effectively segregated the minorities from the other applicants (at most of my interviews). I posted it to see if other people had similar experiences which it proves that some have and some have not.

Yet again you are twisting my words, I am not saying it's all about me. I am saying at my personal experiences during my interviews. I was sharing something that I saw and was wanting to see others opinions on. But you immediately attack me for being racist and throw this ******* race card. Did you read any of my other posts? I am friggin pro - revised AA. As long as there are a few revisions, I support the basic ideas. I actually posted it b/c some of my friends who are various ethnicities had told me the same thing. I shared this with E'01 who's on the forum (and happens to be black) and she completely agreed with me. So I think you need to crawl out of your box b/c you are what is making america scared and quick to call out racist. By trying to talk about rationale behind race relations and by trying to express opinions and learn about a certain subject, I am told I am throwing dust in people's eyes? Dude, I am trying to have a discussion!
Explain how I am throwing dust in people's faces and how I am racist? Please, go back to living your lies. I hope people are more open minded than you out there. Or else I am losing hope...

By the way, it's "ceases" not "siezes" if I am reading it right...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by reesie0726:
•Scooby, I understand your concern. I know that my pm'ing you about the urm weekends probably helped to spark this. But I do understand, b/c I just came back from two 2nd look weekends for only urm's. So I will not get a chance to meet cool people like Scoob who are not urm's til classes begin. I never had the experience of being given a special tour or called from the rest of the interviewees or anything like that. Contrary to popular belief, unqualified urm's are not taking up all of the spots for medical school. There is a very small group of highly qualified urm's that are actively being sought after by medical schools for the sake of diversity and the committment to serve under-represented populations. I think that the urm weekends are small enough to help focus on the concerns of urms and also to help convince the urms of the greatness of their school.•••••Yes, and I think that is wonderful for you guys. The revisit is only part of the thing I was talking about. The main thing is just during interview day how people have been commenting about lack of minorities at interviews. I agree with this, but as soon as I see one at the interviews, half the time they will disappear for the rest of the day.

I now understand more..that URMs are highly sought after. I agree that unqualified URMs are not taking up all the spots in med school. I never said that....and I never meant to infer it...but somehow people get on my case about it...
I NEVER SAID THAT! What I did say is I was unable to interact with minorities at my interviews...simple...
 
Scooby, if it helps, I agree with what you are saying. When I went to the urm 2nd look weekends, I did regret that I did not get to meet any of the other non-urms. I feel that it is difficult to get a really good picture when you do not get to be with alot of the other prospective students. I have mixed feelings about the seperate 2nd look weekends. They are good because they let you know the available support system for urms but there are definite drawbacks. I am tempted to go to the 2nd look weekend for all of the students b4 I make up my mind. Anyway, Scooby brings up an excellent point in my opinion.
 
Scooby, when I brought up the point that unqualified urms are not filling up med schools, I was not directing it at you. Rather, ryo seems to be very much of that opinion from reading his/her comments on the minority thread. And I agree with you if that is what you found, minorities being whisked away and being seperated from all of the other interviewees. I personally did not have that experience and I was often the only urm at my interview but I still had a good time talking to the other applicants.
 
Mrs. Prime...I apologize for the gender-bending error...its just that Relatively is one of those androgenous names that makes it hard to determine maleness/femaleness. I hope you can forgive me.

If MD/PhDs are employees do you consider all graduate students to be employees as well?

And the point of "AA" isn't to get more poor people into medical school its to get more under-represented minorities into medical school as someone already pointed out the two aren't necessarily the same ting.

But I can see us going on and on about this for ever and never agreeing so rebut me if you want and then we'll just agree to disagree.
 
So what there is a weekend for URM....? If the Jewish Student Association decided to put together a weekend shibang for incoming Jewish students...I wouldn't care. As long as they aren't getting some "special" inside info that I'm NOT getting.
At the end of day weekend retreat or not, we will be sitting in the same class trying to pass the same exams.
In undergrad they had a special retreat every year for us Honor students and it wasn't even all that. It was more like a waste of my time because you feel somehow pressured/obligated to attend and rub elbows.
Why don't you try calling the school and insist on letting you attend the URM retreat.....if you feel that passionate about it.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
•Ethnic diversity does not equate into intellectual diversity.

Racism is discrimination the on basis of race. AA discriminates on the basis of race. AA is racism.•••••This is a one-sided view of the affirmative action argument. Are you as equally passionate about the discrimination that goes on before many minority kids get to the point where they can apply to medical school school?
Are you as equally passionate about the seperate standard for admissions for athletes who entertain us all at colleges and universities around the country? Their GPA's and SAT scores tend to be lower than the OVERALL averages at many school. That is "unfair" too, but I have never heard people get their panties in a bunch over that. I wonder why not?
Are you as equally passionate about the well documented inequalities in terms of access to healthcare and aggressive treatment that many minorities face in this country ? Will you practice in areas heavily populated by minorities when you graduate from medical school. Will you respect and treat "ALL" of your patients with kindness and compassion they deserve?
I think that these are just some of the questions that people need to be asking themselves before they get up on a high horse and complain about a policy that is a minor "Corrective" measure to combat in someway the bull**** that many URMs have to deal before and after medical school.

"slowly dismounting from my high horse"
 
i'm native american, raised in a 5 person family where my father made around $35,000/year (if that). i'm still just premed, but in my undergrad institution i feel i was given preferential treatment based on my ethnicity. also helping me was the fact that my skin is pale. the double-edged sword is that any happiness i had at what i supposed was preferential treatment i was given was quickly diminished by the number of times my skills/intelligence/suitability was questioned. almost once a week i felt like people thought i was not smart enough to get into the school on my own merits, and my race was the only thing that got me in. maybe they didn't really feel that way, but i was acutely sensitive to this, and it really did make me feel like i had to prove my worthiness over and over again. maybe other people feel this way too (ie. legacies, athletic superstars). i took part in special orientation programs and prospective weekends, and i can honestly say the only "insider" information i ever recieved had to do with getting along in a 90% white environment. it's lonely to be away from home AND away from familiar food AND away from familiar culture. having an early link to someone coming from a similar background allowed me to concentrate on school and not get so hung up on transitioning to "another world."

i am not posting this to argue or anything, just to contribute my perspective. special programs for URMs are special treatment, but they do serve an important purpose. schools must carefully monitor them to make sure that other students have the same benefits as are given to the URMs. i for one would be deeply embarrassed if i was called out of a group of people and taken aside for my "special URM experience"--i should have the opportunity to self-select, IN PRIVATE, for URM programs.
 
"Are you as equally passionate....."

Well met A-Phi-A :wink: . I think people get so wrapped up in the admission's process, they forget about the BIG picture.
 
Yes, I am equally passionate about doctors providing equal quality service to a person, regardless of his or her race. Racism is wrong, period.

How did you surmise from my statements that I did not care?

•••quote:••• Thanks for the link none. I have a hard time taking seriously any site that cites the Bakke case. While I am against quotas, that case was a bad joke. ••••

This is what the website said about Bakke (the landmark case in AA)

The University of California has a long history of racial preferences. The Bakke Supreme Court case (1974), the first public university regent's vote to attempt to eliminate racial preferences (July 20, 1995), and the first state constitutional amendment to stop racial preferences (California Proposition 209 ) all had their origin in the admissions practices of the University of California.
Click to expand...
Bakke challenged the fact that UC was saving a specific number of spots for URMs. The supreme court ruled that racial quotas are unconstitutional.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by quake:
•This thread is not meant to start a verbal war but I feel that i shd point out to you that there is no reason for SDNers to lose their objectivity simply due to fraternal reasons.

I have noticed that some posters have been very disagreeable lately, which is unfortunate. However, it would seem that others have been too quick to lash out at them without understanding the situation at hand.
Recently, Quaileggs posted that she was OFFENDED that some woman assumed she was having mid-life crises and the person INFERRED that being a lifeguard is equivalent to pursuing an MD. She also intimated that many of the women in her community are BRAIN-DEAD and she couldn't wait to start med school.
Bustahimenes objected to this message and hell broke loose. Personally, I'm very surprised more SDNers did not find the original post offensive. Shd Quaileggs' elitism be excused just because she's been posting for a long time. It is very unfortunate that people have come to think that you show solidarity by not pointing out your friends' questionable utterances. I feel that SDN owe it to themselves to call people out when they make such elist statements.
•••••Ah..now I remember you....you always want to start **** don't you? I fear a world where you control what people say and how they act....
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by quake:
•I can't believe that most of you have allowed Scooby to throw dust into your eyes. It shows how easily people are willing to speak against any attempt at helping to improve the URM.•••••Yea Quake...that's my sole purpose of posting on this board. For over 2500 posts I have tried to lure everyone into a life of hate! That is my goal 🙄

Please describe how I am attempting to keep the URMs down and out of medical school...Never did I state I oppose any sort of programs or help. If you would look at the IRONY of the situation, then...
 
I think they should have Second Look Days for blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Irish, Italians, etc, and a special day for mixed races. It'd everything fair.

Also, is there any statistic that shows URM's are more likely to practice in their communities? At urban hospitals, all I see are white doctors.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Scooby Doo:
• There IS one thing I was kind of perturbed by..and that is the fact that MOUNT SINAI did NOT invite anyone but minorities back for a visit...I went on my own second look day when I was in New York another time and fell in love with the school even more...but if they did not even give me that opportunity, oh well. All the other schools DID give me that opportunity...and since i have fallen in love with another school 🙂
•••••I'm not reading this post, but I just wanted to mention to Scoob that when you do withdraw from Mount Sinai (which I think you will) mention this in your letter to them. Maybe Georgetown would take my suggestions to heart and change their policies.
 
I think I understand the type of situation Scooby is talking about. When I interviewed at my state school last year, two black females came into the room at lunch time, sat down near the two black applicants, and completely ignored everyone else. They then proceeded to try to recruit these two applicants. I know that many people would say this does not constitute racism or segregation because minorities have to stick together and try to help each other, but I was offended by it and feel that it indeed was segregation. And I got the vibe that one of the black applicants was a little uncomfortable at being singled out for attention. As I said in the beginning, I understand the kind of situation scoob is talking about and it shouldn't be happening at interviews. I'm sure people have all kinds of things to post in the two black female med students' defense so I'll leave you all to it.
 
Ryo-Ohki, I find it offense that you decided to selectively quote me, completely changing the meaning of my post.

It makes me wonder if you are able to actually see what someone is saying, or if you are so intent on looking for what you want to find that you intentionally misunderstand anything that doesn't support your position.
 
I am against all of the things you mentioned.

Are you ok? 😕
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Katie:
•I think I understand the type of situation Scooby is talking about. When I interviewed at my state school last year, two black females came into the room at lunch time, sat down near the two black applicants, and completely ignored everyone else. They then proceeded to try to recruit these two applicants. I know that many people would say this does not constitute racism or segregation because minorities have to stick together and try to help each other, but I was offended by it and feel that it indeed was segregation. And I got the vibe that one of the black applicants was a little uncomfortable at being singled out for attention. As I said in the beginning, I understand the kind of situation scoob is talking about and it shouldn't be happening at interviews. I'm sure people have all kinds of things to post in the two black female med students' defense so I'll leave you all to it.•••••That's not cool! One of the things I liked most about Duke was that the black people weren't staying in a corner by themselves and whispering all over the whole place. So yes I agree that that kind of behavior is bull**** and I have little patience for that kinda stuff.
 
and I'm black. (PAD) :clap:
 
Ryo-Ohki, against all the things *who* mentioned 😕

I you are talking to me, yes, I'm okay, just a little shocked that anyone would choose to change the meaning of what someone else said. It's like the movie ads where a critic says "definately *not* the best movie of the year" and the poster quotes "the best movie of the year."
 
No, it is more like you saying my personal view was one-sided. It is like you asking me if I was equally passionate about other injustices caused by race (among other things) or if I was just a guy who " complain(s) about a policy that is a minor "Corrective" measure to combat in someway the bull**** that many URMs have to deal before and after medical school. "

You have a lot of misdirected anger, my friend.
 
Ahhh.. Ryo-Ohki the therapist. Thats what I love about you pal, you are soooo supportive. 😡
 
Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
[QB]Yes, I am equally passionate about doctors providing equal quality service to a person, regardless of his or her race. Racism is wrong, period.

How did you surmise from my statements that I did not care?

How? Because at least in medicine one of the reasons why schools attempt to recruit minorities is simply not a matter of improving and broadnening the middle class but a matter of life and death for many. It has been shown clearly in my view that the current system does not work for us. This not to say that non URM physicians are uncaring and incapable of extending themselves equally to their patients. I beleive that many of my potential colleagues are decent people yet, a disparity exists. Affirmative Action in terms of recruitment of more minority physicians is at its core an attempt to bring an equal level of care to all. Your inability or refusal to see this is the reason why I question your passion. If you cared at all your displeasure with AA would at least be tempered by the realization in the current healthcare context it does have its place.
Click to expand...
 
I do not believe AA is helping minority areas. AA medical school admission policies have been around since the 1970's and look how much you revere the current medical system.

I propose a contract system where pre-meds sign contracts to serve in minority areas for a certain amount of years in exchange for incentives. URMs as well as non-URMs will have an opportunity to sign this contract.
I believe this system will produce the best doctors and care for minority areas.
As far as increasing minority social economic status, I believe that the current law that supports anti-discrimination as well as financial aid programs like Pell Grants are working.
What is significantly hindering these programs and their goal is lowered expectations....forming a self-fulfilling prophecy for many minority members (i.e.: you do not have to score in the mid 30s on your MCAT and have a high GPA to get into medical school...we expect less&#8230;.because you are an URM)

You are proposing a derivative of the Separate But Equal argument (blacks have black doctors, whites have white doctors; everyone is happy).
You are supporting a system that hurts non-URM pre-med students.
Most of all, you proposing discrimination on the basis of race. We should never discriminate on the basis of race.
We should encourage the various races of this country to interact, instead of segregating them like you propose. After all, how will we ever achieve true racial harmony like MLK dreamed of, if we continue to segregate ourselves?
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
•I do not believe AA is helping minority areas. AA medical school admission policies have been around since the 1970's and look how much you revere the current medical system.

I beleive AA has helped by at a minimum increasing the number of physicians who are willing to serve and live in the communities populated by minorities. The system is broken despite the presence of more minority physicans because we are not in positions of power to affect the policy changes nescessary for truly equal acess to healthcare for all. Whether we like it or not and this it not a knock on my caucasian brothers out there, this healthcare system is geared towards helping you get better.For example, This is one of the reasons why NIH had to create an office ensure that in clinical trials and studies that women latinos, african americans and asians are represented as there are differences in the effectiveness of treatment regimens depending upon race ethnicity and sex. The more equal representation we have in the decision making process, the better healthcare will be for all. Affirmative action is helping to make that a reality.

I propose a contract system where pre-meds sign contracts to serve in minority areas for a certain amount of years in exchange for incentives. URMs as well as non-URMs will have an opportunity to sign this contract.
I believe this system will produce the best doctors and care for minority areas
As far as increasing minority social economic status, I believe that the current law that supports anti-discrimination as well as financial aid programs like Pell Grants are working.
What is significantly hindering these programs and their goal is lowered expectations....forming a self-fulfilling prophecy for many minority members (i.e.: you do not have to score in the mid 30s on your MCAT and have a high GPA to get into medical school...we expect less&#8230;.because you are an U

All of which you mentioned is all well and good, but lets get to the root of the problem shall we. That problem is the racism, classism and sexism inherent in the public educational system. Until we are willing to pay teachers well and recruit good teacher to the areas where minorites live, and fund all public school equally all the problems which lead to lowered expectation will persist. Lets combat those injustices first which affect MILLIONS of kids each day and after we do that we can deal with the injustice of affirmative action as you see it which affects proportionately relatively few.

You are proposing a derivative of the Separate But Equal argument (blacks have black doctors, whites have white doctors; everyone is happy).

You are supporting a system that hurts non-URM pre-med students.
I beg to differ. I am supporting a system which helps patients.I am supporting a system which benefits millions of minorities patients each day by providing them with healthcare providers who bring a vantage point which reflects theirs as well as aggressive effective and compassionate treatment. As a prospective physician who are you more concerned about. The patients or yourself?

Most of all, you proposing discrimination on the basis of race. We should never discriminate on the basis of race.

No I am proposing a contermeasure against discrimination. Like I mentioned above if you dont like affirmative action them become as equally passionate and angry with those conditions which nescessitated its inception and continue to require it today.

We should encourage the various races of this country to interact, instead of segregating them like you propose. After all, how will we ever achieve true racial harmony like MLK dreamed of, if we continue to segregate ourselves?•••••MLK was about more than the I have a dream speech. This might be shocking for you to believe but he was very much in favor of affirmative action.Hear are some excerpts from some of MLK's interviews and writings.

Reporter: "Do you feel it's fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?"

Dr. King: "I do indeed...Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. ... America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans...They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs...There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group." -- (Interview,1965, p.367)

"Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic." -- 1964, Why We Can't Wait.

"Something positive must be done... In 1863 the Negro was told that he was free as a result of the Emancipation Proclamation. But he was not given any land to make that freedom meaningful. And the irony of it all is that at the same time the nation failed to do anything for the black man -- through an act of Congress it was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and Midwest -- which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor...Not only that, it provided agents to further their expertise in farming. Not only that, as the years unfolded it provided low interest rates so that they could mechanize their farms. And to this day thousands of these very persons are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies every year not to farm.

"And these are so often the very people who tell Negroes that they must lift themselves by their own bootstraps...

"We must come to see that the roots of racism are very deep in our country, and there must be something positive and massive in order to get rid of all the effects of racism and the tragedies of racial injustice." -- "Remaining Awake," 1968 (271).

I guess MLK has lost some fans today.
06'
 
Here's something that needs to be looked at. Let's say that what Scooby witnessed during his interview and the "second look weekend" were acts of segregetion. What would Mount Sinai seek to gain from that type of behavior? Mount Sinai just like any other medical school is actively seeking to add diversity to their school. What sense would it make to accept qualified URM to your school partly to add diversity, simply to turn around and seperate them from the general student body. Why breed an environment of segregation in the M1 and M2 years, just to release these students into their clinical years and eventually residencies were segregation is not an option. As a interns those students will not be able to pick and choose which patients they will treat base on race. Nor will they be able to choose who they will or will not work with and/or for using the same criteria. So once again, why would Mount Sinai chose to breed an environment that is totally counterproductive to the intergrated workplace that their students will eventually be forced to work in. True segregration, like in the fifties just didn't happen. It was a system put in place and maintained to keep people consistently seperated. Seperated to the extent that neither groups of people would dare choose to interact with the people on the other side.
 
Will someone please anonymously email this thread to the Dean or something at MSSM. I think they will find this discussion quite interesting!
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•Here's something that needs to be looked at. Let's say that what Scooby witnessed during his interview and the "second look weekend" were acts of segregetion. What would Mount Sinai seek to gain from that type of behavior? Mount Sinai just like any other medical school is actively seeking to add diversity to their school. What sense would it make to accept qualified URM to your school partly to add diversity, simply to turn around and seperate them from the general student body. Why breed an environment of segregation in the M1 and M2 years, just to release these students into their clinical years and eventually residencies were segregation is not an option. As a interns those students will not be able to pick and choose which patients they will treat base on race. Nor will they be able to choose who they will or will not work with and/or for using the same criteria. So once again, why would Mount Sinai chose to breed an environment that is totally counterproductive to the intergrated workplace that their students will eventually be forced to work in. True segregration, like in the fifties just didn't happen. It was a system put in place and maintained to keep people consistently seperated. Seperated to the extent that neither groups of people would dare choose to interact with the people on the other side.•••••Umm..hello? Did you read any of my other responses? I love it how when you state something like "don't let him throw sand in your face" and I ask you to support something you change the topic.

As for what you say, I completely agree with every statement you made in the above post. So what? You didn't say anything new. If you look at my post you see that I say the same thing in a different way. We are both agreeing just you are too uptight and can't see through your smokescreen you created. If you know anything about me, you should realize that my posts tend to take a sarcastic tone. But you should really get that thing removed...I mean, it might cause problems later on when you are sitting on the toilet and nothing comes out...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by BrentwoodBoy:
•Will someone please anonymously email this thread to the Dean or something at MSSM. I think they will find this discussion quite interesting!•••••There's no reason to email him. It's not important. MSSM was one school I noticed that at. And someone else mentioned that maybe their minority affairs office was particularly well supported and actice. I agree with this and think this is probably why there was a second look weekend only for URMs.
 
Dr. King was a great man. He preached non-violence in the times of hate where as other groups like the black panthers and the nation of Islam urged violence. We share the same goal; an America that does not discriminate on the basis of race. However, we disagree on the path to that goal. I will not take a Whiggish view of history. I have the advantage of knowing what 30+ years of AA has actually done; he did not. I hope you have the same goal in mind as we do.

I find your response troubling. You chose to completely ignore my reply on a couple of important issues;
1. quality of health care in minority areas
2. the segregation effects of your vision of AA (URM doctors go to medical school so that they can go in place of non-URM doctors in URM communities).

Do you see how your vision of AA is a derivative of the old Separate But Equal argument?
Why can't a contract/incentive-based system provide better health care for minority areas then AA? Do you weigh the fact AA is hurting people in making the decision between a non-discriminatory contract/incentive based system versus a discriminatory AA system?
 
i have followed this thread and been reluctant to post as these topics are often times tar-babies. But i had to throw this in. My pre-med advisor-- the one i am supposed to turn to in time of need and direction-- told me when she saw my gpa/mcat, and i am quoting-- "it's too bad you aren't a woman or a minority, you'd be in anywhere!" i respectfully left her office, never to return.

Personally, i would NEVER put one of my children under the scalpel of a surgeon w/o knowing they are there because of their skills, not the amount of pigment in their skin or the fact that they were born 1,000 miles south of me. If someone is accepted to medical school over another more qualified applicant --in ANY situation-- it is wrong and a disgrace to that institution. If AA allows that, it is discrimination and a disgrace to all races. If AA promotes excellence among urm's and encouarages success-- imho, it is a wonderful thing.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by jhug:
•i have followed this thread and been reluctant to post as these topics are often times tar-babies. But i had to throw this in. My pre-med advisor-- the one i am supposed to turn to in time of need and direction-- told me when she saw my gpa/mcat, and i am quoting-- "it's too bad you aren't a woman or a minority, you'd be in anywhere!" i respectfully left her office, never to return.

Personally, i would NEVER put one of my children under the scalpel of a surgeon w/o knowing they are there because of their skills, not the amount of pigment in their skin or the fact that they were born 1,000 miles south of me. If someone is accepted to medical school over another more qualified applicant --in ANY situation-- it is wrong and a disgrace to that institution. If AA allows that, it is discrimination and a disgrace to all races. If AA promotes excellence among urm's and encouarages success-- imho, it is a wonderful thing.•••••From what I know of the process of becoming a doctor, there are no unqualified doctors practicing medicine today. I think its illegal. We all have to take the board exams and pass them. And believe me you, I damn sure know that no residency program is going to accept someone who they feel cannot cut it in their program, whether they are white or black. Therefore if someone gets into medical school (regardless as to how they got in) and cannot prove themself it will all come out in the wash in the end. So to argue about your child going under the knife of someone who is unqualified takes an incomplete view of the process.

A-Phi-A Ph.D. and MD to be
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki:
•Dr. King was a great man. He preached non-violence in the times of hate where as other groups like the black panthers and the nation of Islam urged violence. We share the same goal; an America that does not discriminate on the basis of race. However, we disagree on the path to that goal. I will not take a Whiggish view of history. I have the advantage of knowing what 30+ years of AA has actually done; he did not. I hope you have the same goal in mind as we do.

I find your response troubling. You chose to completely ignore my reply on a couple of important issues;
1. quality of health care in minority areas
2. the segregation effects of your vision of AA (URM doctors go to medical school so that they can go in place of non-URM doctors in URM communities.

Dont be troubled. AA helps to improve healthcare in underserved communities, but it cant solve all the problems that exist in them. If you understood a little about the true dynamics of racism you would have been able to devine this. As long as we do not have URM and minority department chairmen to train all physicians to be as equally agressive in treating minority patients the problems will persist. As long as rich folk get better healthcare coverage, while minorites even if they are rich still are at greater risk for poor or sloppy healthcare the problems will persist. AA can help to change that by having physician not only treat people from these communities but who also can lobby on their behalf.

Do you see how your vision of AA is a derivative of the old Separate But Equal argument?
Why can't a contract/incentive-based system provide better health care for minority areas then AA? Do you weigh the fact AA is hurting people in making the decision between a non-discriminatory contract/incentive based system versus a discriminatory AA system?•••••Dont be troubled. AA helps to improve healthcare in underserved communities, but it cant solve all the problems that exist in them. If you understood a little about the true dynamics of racism you would have been able to devine this. As long as we do not have URM and minority department chairmen to train all physicians to be as equally agressive in treating minority patients the problems will persist. As long as rich folk get better healthcare coverage, while minorites even if they are rich still are at greater risk for poor or sloppy healthcare the problems will persist. AA can help to change that by having physicians who not only treat people from these communities but who can also lobby on their behalf.

My view of AA is not a derivative of the seperate but unequal system. To me if is decision between having enough concerned doctors in the inner cities or not.The contract/incentive programs I think are in place already and I am sure they are helping to make a difference. The question is though, how many of these people once they finish their loan forgiveness program actually stay and continue to provide for the people in these communities?

Affirmative action if hurting people? Ryo, what you mean to say is how it is hurting you. It seems to me that the only person you are concerned about in all of this is yourself, not the minority community. All you want is a way to increase YOUR chances of getting into medical school. Because of that no matter what I do or say you will continue to rage against affirmative action and will never come to see how it benefits millions everyday.
A-Phi-A
 
Original,

glad you have such a positive and open attitude.. I should add that I thought the incident at UMAB was an isolated one and in no way indicative of all of the minority students or white students there. Although there can be some racial cliquishness at Tufts, people are generally good at branching out of their racial circles. :wink:
 
Scooby, ever since you clarified the meaning of your initial post and stated the kind of person you would like to be viewed as, I have tried to view you as such. In addition to that, all my responses have been directed towards discussing the topic at hand and nothing else. Even after my change of heart and the respect that I've shown you, it has not prevented you from name calling and trying to personally attack the character of someone you earlier stated you know absolutely nothing about.
•••quote:•••by Scooby "You have 13 posts..I don't know you at all.you are not coming off too great to me right now. "
As more people express their different points of view, I can't help but to notice that I am not the only one who's fallen victim to your personal attacks. Coincidentally, all these people's views tend to differ from yours. However, let me speak for myself, since you've clarified your initial post, I now implore you to re-read my posts since then, and find where I specifically called you out of you name and/or attacked your character. If and when you find it please clip and paste it to your response to this post. I think that everybody including myself would be interested in seeing it. However if after re-reading my posts you are unable to find it anywhere, be forewarned that it's neither a typo nor a computer error. You can not find it, because I never said it. I really don't want to you clip and paste anything that you assumed I said or interpreted I said. If I meant to say something I would have said in a way in which there would be misunderstanding concerning what I said. Oh and another thing, if by chance you are assuming that I am mad right now and that I trying to cause conflict, I not. I'm currently eating some Ben and Jerry's ice cream and smiling about the fact that it's even come to this. So since I believe in practicing what I preach, I'll lead by example. Here are just a few things that you assumed about me, that are far from being true.

"Cure Finder: Goddamn..what the **** crawled up your ass and bit you? " •••• •••quote:••• "We are both agreeing just you are too uptight and can't see through your smokescreen you created. If you know anything about me, you should realize that my posts tend to take a sarcastic tone. But you should really get that thing removed...I mean, it might cause problems later on when you are sitting on the toilet and nothing comes out... ••••Those are just a couple, I'm not even going to address your comments about me not wanting to interact with other people, or where I specifically stated that "Scooby is against minorities being admitted to medical school". Please provide me with the facts to back-up those last two claims.

•••quote:••• "don't let him throw sand in your face" ••••.

That's somebody else's quote not mine.

•••quote:••• "As for what you say, I completely agree with every statement you made in the above post. So what? You didn't say anything new. If you look at my post you see that I say the same thing in a different way. We are both agreeing just you are too uptight and can't see through your smokescreen you created. If you know anything about me, you should realize that my posts tend to take a sarcastic tone. But you should really get that thing removed...I mean, it might cause problems later on when you are sitting on the toilet and nothing comes out... " ••••How are you and I saying the same thing? You feel, as though what happened to you may be considered acts of segregation, I don't. As for me saying things that have already been said, where did someone else in this thread go into in-depth detail about how segregation would be counterproductive to workforce environment that medical students will eventually have to work in. Where? In closing, I hope that after your response we can come to a peaceful resolution to keep our conversations solely about the topic at hand. Also you didn't even answer the question that I posed in my last post. What would Mount Sinai seek to gain by breeding an environment of segregation?
Click to expand...
 
I noticed at our school last Thursday during lunch that there was a separate table with a sign that for the American Medical Women's Association (it was AMWA) for female interviewees. I think this is pretty similar to what you guys are talking about with minorities. What do you guys think about segregation of women at interviews?

I personally don't see too much harm in having separate lunches and meetings.
 
CureFinder: Of course attacks are going to take on a personal tone - I am not goody two shoes who can avoid that. I have been accused of it before and will be accused of it in the future. I apologize for "attacking" you. I think I was confusing you and quake. I now realize it was quake who said I was throwing sand in people's eyes. The thing that I disliked is you were calling me "sweetie" and crap like that. That's just as condenscending as me saying you have something up your butt.

•••quote:••• What would Mount Sinai seek to gain by breeding an environment of segregation? ••••NOthing. In fact, Mount Sinai is huge on community involvement and helping disadvantaged more so than most schools I have visited.
Basically, in attempting to COMPLETELY SELL THE SCHOOL TO URMs, I feel they are showing them only one side of it I dno't know about you ...but I am choosing a school partly based on the people I am around on interview day or on second look weekend. If there are only a few URMs in a class anyways, then they are not going to be meeting that many at the second look weekend. The huge majority of the class will be nonURM (right? Since there is only a small portion and hence the "underrepresented") By not interacting with everyone, how can you see what your class truly will be like?

•••quote:•••As more people express their different points of view, I can't help but to notice that I am not the only one who's fallen victim to your personal attacks. Coincidentally, all these people's views tend to differ from yours. ••••Hmmm..I think the only person I really disagreed with were both you and Quake. That's TWO people. And the reason I disagreed is b/c one of you implied that I could just go talk to a family member who was in the medical field and various implications as such. PLEASE tell me who else I disagreed with...Tonem thought I was MD/PHD so he was saying some stuff to me but then when he found out I was only MD we made up and kissed. so far the only people on this thread I had a direct disagreement with are you and quake.

Haha..I am just rereading my post right now. All I talk about is your have something up your butt. Chill man :wink: ...

•••quote:••• How are you and I saying the same thing? You feel, as though what happened to you may be considered acts of segregation, I don't. ••••Segregation might be too strong a word. But there was definitely not very good integration between races during those interviews. I don't necessarily feel it's bad or wrong for a group to be "courted" by a school. I guess I am coming from an entirely different perspective b/c I am not a minority. I just don't understand the situation certain races are in and so I see it from the outside not really understanding the inside.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•I now implore you to re-read my posts since then, and find where I specifically called you out of you name and/or attacked your character. If and when you find it please clip and paste it to your response to this post. I think that everybody including myself would be interested in seeing it. •••••These are the statements you used in your first post to irritate me:

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•I'm sick and tired of people like Scooby throwing up the same old tired arguments.

I think your original post is no more than a young person being mad that someone else was offered something that you weren't.

Sorry Sweetie that's life!

I really believe that you need to take your focus off of such trivial things and start concentrating•••••Ok..so let's see here...TRIVIAL, Sweetie, Young person being mad eh?? Hmm..Yea, that's right, you know so much about me....so those are a few of the things you said.....

AS for why we agree with each other:
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Cure Finder:
•I don't agree that minorities should be totally segregated during the interviewing process, but I do believe they should be given ample time to converse with other minorities students. •••••I completely agree with this statement!!!! EXACTLY! I agree with you! Yay! 🙂
 
My situation regarding race is the following. My mother is approximately 1/2 Native American and went to college for free under through a federal program. I, then, am about one-fourth Native American, but look very much white. Only on one instance (when I was travelling in Central America in fact) has anyone ever asked whether I had Native American ancestry. I consider myself white, have suffered no direct ill effect from my heritage, and am in fact very fortunate to belong to a relatively well off upper-middle class family. I chose not to disclose my Native American heritage during college or medical school admissions. I just think it would be morally wrong to call myself a Native American when I've lived my life as a white person. I've done quite well in the admissions process without being considered a URM, but I realize that I could most likely have gotten into a much better school and possibly even have gotten scholarship money had I chosen to call myself Native American.
I want to know what you think of my situation and what you would have done. Is there anyone out there who could have been considered a URM, but chose not to do so? I understand that most URMs could not do this, but some could. After all, to be considered black in this country, a person just has to have one black ancestor. Thus, someone who looks very much white, but who is 1/32 black, could rightfully call himself a URM and get special consideration during the medical school admissions process. The American conception of race is very polarized in this respect. A person is either black or white, not something in between.
 
Scooby, I've seen what your saying, and I understand that it may be strange or uncomfortable (for you, for other students, for the URMs) ... It was a little bit uncomfortable for me, too.

But long run here, dude ... You can interact with these classmates later. You can make black, hispanic, and yes, even white friends later. And get involved in minority lives through the community and through med school programs (AMSA, SNMA, whatever). That's what I do.

I know you aren't talking admissions, or health care disparties in minorities, or any of the major social problems plaguing America. You're speaking about an incident(s) that has made some of us feel uncomfortable, but perhaps eased the situation for other people. It is tough. Non-URMs will never (I'm a non-URM) have the same viewpoint as an URM, and maybe it will be helpful for them to have these 'special' events.

Even though it may seem hypocritical or seem to promote un-diversity ... I am going to give the benefit to the URM students who planned these affairs, because I feel they have the foresight to say that these 'special' events have been/will be helpful to future first year students. If they are deleterious, I think the future M1s might take a different approach next year. Or maybe you can suggest to SNMA next year that perhaps 'others' can help out with the 'special' activities.

Scooby, it seems like you were frustrated with other people shorthcoming; frustrated that other people cannot behave in a way that is natural for someone like you - to be able to interact with anyone regardless of race, creed, faith, or socioeconomic status. It is natural for me, too. And we should be part of solution and contribute ideas to make it a better situation.

But, listen, some of our future colleagues have never had a black friend, never been to a quinsietta, never celebrated Diwali ... and I'm not sure if they are the ones that I want representing my school on Interview Day. That isn't right, either.

So, next year, when you are helping out with tours, student interviews, etc., reach out to the URM interviewees as well as the non-URM interviewees, so none of them feel they way you did this time next year.

Good luck,

Simul
 
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